JBY28, Aug 23 2006, 02:52 PM although kevelar and similar materials hel[d] up longer, they also had more resistance and drag factor, what that means is they would cause a human body to enter a tumble, vault, or fall much faster than leather. Now am I saying motorport is bad stuff.....no, but a body wearing leathers would be less likely to enter a vault or tumble. I need to post that study soon... idea3.gif
I would like to read it if you come accross it, because those results seem counter intuitive. Leather is stickier and probably has a higher friction coefficient, so I expect it to grab the asphalt and force the rider into a tumble. Kelvar is smooth, so I would not expect it to have the grippy grabby effect. It should be like the difference between rubber and plastic. BTW- I'm talking about air mesh Kevlar. I'm not sure what to expect from the stretchy racing Kevlar, so maybe that's what was studied.
As for the speed through the air of the fall, I don't expect to see a significant difference. But if there is a difference, I would expect leather to add more energy to the equation because it's heavier.
Not having reviewed any such study, the only advantage I would expect see with leather is maybe a shorter slide when the rider is not tumbling, because the extra friction should slow the rider down quicker.
I don't have a study for you, but when I lowsided my leathers had me sliding just fine. I got right back up. They were barely damaged (scuffed pretty good though) and I'm still wearing them.
I can read study after study, but I'll stick with the gear I "personally tested" in the field biggrin.gif
MotoTacoma, Aug 24 2006, 04:31 PM I don't have a study for you, but when I lowsided my leathers had me sliding just fine. I got right back up. They were barely damaged (scuffed pretty good though) and I'm still wearing them.
I can read study after study, but I'll stick with the gear I "personally tested" in the field biggrin.gif
Ditto. Slid like I was on a waterslide at a themepark. The only major scuffs were on the gloves. Lowside once, highside once.
I have Kevlar™ patches on my Teknic™ jacket, which also has leather™ bits. In the few crashes I've had (that damned lazy / jinxed VFR750 I used to own), the Kevlar™ bits scuffed up much more than the leather™ on my jacket, pants, gloves and boots™. The leather needed very little more than a bit of shoe-polish™ applied to have it looking good again. The Italian™ version of Cordura™ was scuffed, melted, and worn through™.
For abrasion resistance, you can't beat leather. Shame it's not as warm/cool/waterproof as fabric. Oh yeah - and it's thicker™ so it bunches up more. Also (as well) it's heavier.
How about we not worry about it and get on with riding.
Both types of gear have their benefits & problems, some of which have to do with other factors then just outright ability to crash at the highest speeds.
The thing is there are nearly infinite variables in a street crash so it's going to be awfully hard to design an experiment that would actually figure out whether leather or cordura was more likely to "catch" and make you tumble.
Things like the surface you crash on, whether it's bumpy, the exact type of crash, whether the surface is wet or not, etc, etc.. there are tons of variables.
My anecdotal and gut feel is the leather is more likely to make you tumble.. cause the cordura is more likely to rip. But the quality of the armor and the quality of the fit probably have way more to do with how much you're going to be injured. Good quality gear that fits right with either material is going to get the job done for most of us.
There are at least 2-3 schools of thought here:
- I should wear the same thing as Rossi, Hayden, Pedrosa, etc.. cause they are the most extreme and they come out OK in crashes
- I will wear a realistic gear selection that gives me as much protection as possible while still being weatherproof and/or usable on the street
- I ride a Harley/I am a squid, gear is for dorks.
I didn't know Teknic was Italian.. My Teknic stuff says it's Pakistani goats. goofy.gif
I wear an Aerostich. I used to wear leathers however in a crash, the leather grabbed and pulled my shoulder underneath my body causing massive destruction to my shoulder. The ballistic nylon in my Aerostich is much "slicker" and I believe would not have behaved the same as the leather I was wearing when I crashed. If my jacket would have slid, instead of gripped it would have been a lot better. I personally will only wear leathers on the track, but to each their own.
enzed_viffer, Aug 24 2006, 02:21 PM I have Kevlar™ patches on my Teknic™ jacket, which also has leather™ bits. In the few crashes I've had (that damned lazy / jinxed VFR750 I used to own), the Kevlar™ bits scuffed up much more than the leather™ on my jacket, pants, gloves and boots™. The leather needed very little more than a bit of shoe-polish™ applied to have it looking good again. The Italian™ version of Cordura™ was scuffed, melted, and worn through™.
For abrasion resistance, you can't beat leather. Shame it's not as warm/cool/waterproof as fabric. Oh yeah - and it's thicker™ so it bunches up more. Also (as well) it's heavier.
I wish it was me that owned that trademark on the words leather�, boots�,shoe-polish�,thicker�, and Italian�!!!! smile.gif
Kevlar, without a doubt, will cause a tumble long before leather will. The reason for this is that kevar is a weave of fabric. Millions of individual threads of fabric running horizontally and vertically across each other.
Imagine sliding down the pavement. Millions of tiny outcroppings of pavement/concrete jutting into your suit. Kevlar's fabric grabs the pavement like tiny little bands of steel. Instead of ripping, they grab the pavement causing you to begin to tumble.
My thoughts are, if the GP racers don't wear it then there must be a reason.
First off...... +1.gif I have to agree with the others when this could be debated until the end of time. I was going to re type this and found another forum posted it so here ya go: Reprint from a Sept 88 "Cycle" magazine article "Abrasion Testing: Torn in the USA".
Drag Test
"For the Drag Test, samples were stitched to a bag that held a 75-pound sandbag inside a milk crate, then dragged behind a pickup truck..."
"For the Taber Test, the specimen was mounted on a rotating platform and scuffed by two rubber-emery grinding wheels." The numbers represent the number of revolutions until the fabric totally fails. A vacuum clears debris.
Two-year-old 100% Cotton Denim Jeans 168 New 100% Cotton Denim Jeans 225 Kevlar 29 Aramid Fiber, Style 713 506 Cordura Nylon, Type 440 559 Leather, Lightweight, Nude Finish, 2.25 oz./sq. ft. 564 Leather, Fashion Weight, 1.75 oz./sq. ft. 750 Senior Ballistic Nylon 817 Leather, Competition Weight, 3 oz./sq. ft. 2600
More to consider...
"Finally, protection from road abrasion cannot be guaranteed by a materials abrasion resistance alone. A jacket may have panels of highly abrasion-resistant materials, yet if low-quality stitching joins those panels and the seams come apart upon impact or during a slide, then the abrasion resistance of the panels could count for nothing. Furthermore, an ill-fitting garment may ride up in a slide, contorting the body and exposing the skin. And the best jacket in the world, left unzipped and/or unsnapped, won't give riders the protection they pay for. When it comes to safety, the issues are more complex than just the abrasion resistance of materials."
JoeW, Aug 25 2006, 02:40 PM Kevlar, without a doubt, will cause a tumble long before leather will.
I have a doubt. So does Gordon Jennings and Aerostich when it comes to Cordura Nylon. Maybe Kevlar is different, but I don't see how it would be.
Fron the Aerostich site:
"Although we have not conducted tests comparing the friction coefficients of cordura suits and leathers on various pavement surfaces, we have collected a significant amount of relevant information. We repair many Aerostich suits every year, and most of these are damaged by sliding on all kinds of pavements. Many of the wearers (testers....?) had previous crash experiences with leathers. Post-crash wearers typically comment that their Aerostich was 'slipperier' than their old leathers. The consensus is that Cordura slides a little better and tends to roll and tumble the wearer somewhat less than leather. After studying hundreds of accidents, former Motorcyclist magazine editor and professional accident reconstructionist Gordon Jennings believed that more crash injuries (broken shoulders, etc..) were caused by tumbling than by the incrementally increased chances of hitting something due to sliding farther."
They do have some knowlege of woven fabic acting in the reverse of what you say, and yeah, this could be debated until the end of time.
Pretty funny..... so wear the jeans and the leather get the best of both worlds. While I believe in AGATT it boils down to what you want to wear, what you can afford, and what is the most versatile. Good luck. FWIW: I wear kevelar/leather gloves, leather jacket (also own a waterproof textile w/kevlar), Textile/Leather pants, and soon to be Alpinestars SMX-R boots. To each his own. Some days I might just wear a helmet and shorts, it just depends.
If you crash on the public roadways sliding to a stop will be the least of your worries. A sudden tumble/vault into a power pole or some other object will ruin your day irregardless of gear. So pick what is cost effective, protective, and comfy. Otherwise get the Robocop setup and you will be GTG.
Hobie1dog, Aug 24 2006, 08:54 PM Another thread that can be argued till eternity. With no right answer. blink.gif
+1.gif
Problem with this whole discussion is that personal experience will offer different results. It's really HOW you land than what you land in. My dad rode when he was a kid... went down a couple times in street clothes... barely a scratch. On the other end...I've seen people in full leathers break a few bones at low speed.
Watch a season of MotoGP or AMA superbike... check out the crashes... some slide and some roll... just depends on how they land and if they hit a curb or something along the way.
Ikazuchi, Aug 25 2006, 06:45 PM Problem with this whole discussion is that personal experience will offer different results.
I agree. People put way too much stock into personal experience. It's really biased, because people tend not to question their own judgement, so they leave the crash scene automatically believing they went into it with what they think was the best armor for the situation. If they walk away with minimal injuries, it reinforces their potentially flawed judgement. Even worse, they then use that as a grounds to make recommendations to others.
Example: I t-boned a car going 45 mph, was wearing only denim. My body made a body size dent in the car, I popped straight up, flipped a couple times, and came straight down on my back. Considering all the energy that went into that accident and the mass damage to the car and bike, it was very unexpected for me to walk away from it without an injury (in denim). I would be an absolute fool to then make the claim that denim is adequite protection.
Ikazuchi, Aug 25 2006, 06:45 PM It's really HOW you land than what you land in.
It's both.
Ikazuchi, Aug 25 2006, 06:45 PM My dad rode when he was a kid... went down a couple times in street clothes... barely a scratch. On the other end...I've seen people in full leathers break a few bones at low speed.
I've experienced both cases.. walked away in denim once (the 45 mph t-bone accident), and another time I was carried off on a stretcher in full armored leather (I skidded going ~10-15 mph, and fractured a bone and was on crutches for 3 months). So I guess my personal experience shows that denim is better than leather dry.gif
Yes, another silly topic. The answer? Without considering crash factors and environment, Kevlar is a marketing term for woven fabric that is suppose to have more resistance than a material like cotton or canvas.
Gloves or leather appearal or anything for that matter that says it has Kevlar isn't of much use if you don't know how much is in there, how they put it in the product, or how thick it is. It's all about marketing. The trouble with Kevlar is that it isn't as useful on it's own as much as it is with other fabrics like leather or textiles.
Take my Draggin jeans for instance. I had a low side about 5 years ago and I had Draggin jeans on. As most of you know they have Kevlar lined knees and rear end. Is this better than plain jeans? Yes. Did it really hold up? Well, no. My knee only had a strawberry on it but there was a hole in the knee area of my pants and the Kevlar did not hold up. When you slide or have an impact against the street, it is going to disintegrate. Leather on the other hand will last much longer.
When push comes to shove, it tears just like anything else except leather. Leather is the best and will always be. I'm not so sure adding Kevlar does much except get people's attention. The bottom line is don't go paying more for it.
JBY28, Aug 25 2006, 06:35 PM Reprint from a Sept 88 "Cycle" magazine article "Abrasion Testing: Torn in the USA"....
Thanks for posting that JBY28. It's interesting to notice a radical difference between the field tests published in Cycle magazine, and the lab test results published in the Save Your Hide guide.
I'd like to get to the bottom of that. I noticed the Save Your Hide guide is very generic about what was tested, and the Cycle magazine article listed specific numbers for the varient of each material. So the discrepency could be due to wildly different varients of the same material. Aramid can come in a form as thin as a cotton t-shirt, which is like the kind of aramid in used in a military pilot coverall (purely for its flame resistence), and it can also be produced in a relatively thick and hard fiberglass-like material, and anywhere in between (like racing stretchy Kevlar). Competition leather can also very from 1.0 to 1.8 mm (AFAIK).
Does anyone know exactly what kind of aramid is described by "Kevlar 29 Aramid Fiber, Style 713"? I know it's different from what Motoport.com uses, because this material datasheet for Aramid Style 713 indicates a tear strength of 900 lbs/in, which is higher than racing Kevlar, and less than the tear strength of Kevlar mesh.
I think all those tests are subjective. How much kevlar is actually in my teknic gloves? Who knows. Just get something you like that is protective and go with that. Everyone has their own 2 cents on this topic. Much like the famous oil threads. beer.gif
Typically the kevlar useage in gloves is in the stitching and in the high abrasion areas...not for abrasion resistance, but to reduce heat transference to your hands. It is widely used in gloves with studs, they use the kevlar under the studs so that when you are skidding down the pavement and the metal studs heat up, your hands won't burn up right away.
To the gentleman referring to Gordon Jennings and his Aerostitch....Cordura is nylon. Do you realize that Kevlar's tensile strength is much higher than nylon? So when you are sliding down the road, the kevlar threads don't bend and break like nylon.
JBY28, Aug 25 2006, 06:35 PM First off...... +1.gif I have to agree with the others when this could be debated until the end of time. I was going to re type this and found another forum posted it so here ya go: Reprint from a Sept 88 "Cycle" magazine article "Abrasion Testing: Torn in the USA".
Drag Test
"For the Drag Test, samples were stitched to a bag that held a 75-pound sandbag inside a milk crate, then dragged behind a pickup truck..."
"For the Taber Test, the specimen was mounted on a rotating platform and scuffed by two rubber-emery grinding wheels." The numbers represent the number of revolutions until the fabric totally fails. A vacuum clears debris.
Two-year-old 100% Cotton Denim Jeans 168 New 100% Cotton Denim Jeans 225 Kevlar 29 Aramid Fiber, Style 713 506 Cordura Nylon, Type 440 559 Leather, Lightweight, Nude Finish, 2.25 oz./sq. ft. 564 Leather, Fashion Weight, 1.75 oz./sq. ft. 750 Senior Ballistic Nylon 817 Leather, Competition Weight, 3 oz./sq. ft. 2600
More to consider...
"Finally, protection from road abrasion cannot be guaranteed by a materials abrasion resistance alone. A jacket may have panels of highly abrasion-resistant materials, yet if low-quality stitching joins those panels and the seams come apart upon impact or during a slide, then the abrasion resistance of the panels could count for nothing. Furthermore, an ill-fitting garment may ride up in a slide, contorting the body and exposing the skin. And the best jacket in the world, left unzipped and/or unsnapped, won't give riders the protection they pay for. When it comes to safety, the issues are more complex than just the abrasion resistance of materials."
Interesting article, thanks for posting as this may answer questions with hard technical data that many are looking for. fing02.gif
One of those "this thread could be argued forever"but for what it's worth when the dust settles....More pro motorcycle racers in the asphalt forms of the sport trust their hydes to hydes. They are prevy to the latest in technology, newest "facts" from the largest safety clothing companies in the world(who also want to protect their human investments),and they still tend to ride with leather. These companies get better advertisement also when the rider can get up and kick the bike that made the mistake in corner #7..... goofy.gif
skuuter, Aug 28 2006, 07:31 PM More pro motorcycle racers in the asphalt forms of the sport trust their hydes to hydes. They are prevy to the latest in technology, newest "facts" from the largest safety clothing companies in the world(who also want to protect their human investments),and they still tend to ride with leather. These companies get better advertisement also when the rider can get up and kick the bike that made the mistake in corner #7..... goofy.gif
Under the circumstances that you've stated, leather armor is not chosen because it is more effective, but simply because it is proven. Business interests fear risk - particularly unnecessary risk (this is why NASA still uses (proven) mission critical computers from the 60s). Sponsors of pro racers don't want to be the first to try something new on their dollar, when they already know leather works and anything better is simply overkill.
I'm not sure whether the pro riders have any say in the matter, but they're going to choose leather because textiles aren't going to get them laid. goofy.gif In more pro racing cases, the sex appeal factor will supercede the comfort factor. Sponsors also want their ads on riders that appeal to the spectators, and Kevlar isn't exactly sexy.
That chart listing materials is way out of date. I don't think you can purchase most of those. Once I crashed my VFR this past May, Aerostich hired me and now I make the suits. The only competition in textile suits is BMW versus Aerostich. The others are just throw away suits, that is you don't repair them. They don't hold their value and you can't get custom fitted. The imported suits may be fit a need, but if cost is no option stich's are nice.
jgombos, Aug 25 2006, 05:14 PM I've experienced both cases.. walked away in denim once (the 45 mph t-bone accident), and another time I was carried off on a stretcher in full armored leather (I skidded going ~10-15 mph, and fractured a bone and was on crutches for 3 months). So I guess my personal experience shows that denim is better than leather dry.gif
Haha! Indeed. I'm gonna sell my leather jacket and suit... and go buy a denim suit.
..and bedazzle the hell out of it biggrin.gif
The VFRD logo in sparkels would look cool...right? tongue.gif
Ikazuchi, Aug 29 2006, 03:41 PM Haha! Indeed. I'm gonna sell my leather jacket and suit... and go buy a denim suit. ..and bedazzle the hell out of it biggrin.gif The VFRD logo in sparkels would look cool...right? tongue.gif
I think I'll get a steel suit of knight's armor and attach a couple hundred bar-end sliders. That ought to do the trick!
If I could afford it, I'd have mutliple sets of gear: one-piece leather suit for strafing the twisties in nice weather, another perforated suit for hot weather, textile suit for touring, etc. etc.
However, I can't afford multiple suits, so I wear a suit that is textile but which has leather in critical areas (as outlined above), has very good armour, removable lining, vents for hot weather, and is 100% waterprooof. That's all I can do.
I do know that although my gear's not perfect, nor the best, it's the best I can afford, and much better than what I was wearing when I wrecked my first bike (T-boned a car at 40mph, wearing jeans, a T-shirt, leather jacket, no gloves, flip-flops, open-faced helmet.) I had some scrapes and bruises, and 9 stitches in my knee. Since then I've had 4 crashes, all wearing less/worse gear than I wear now. No broken bones (to my knowledge) no abrasions or cuts.
buddie hackett, Aug 29 2006, 06:26 PM The only competition in textile suits is BMW versus Aerostich. The others are just throw away suits, that is you don't repair them. They don't hold their value and you can't get custom fitted. The imported suits may be fit a need, but if cost is no option stich's are nice.
I would add Motoport to the list. Every suit is hand made, so getting a custom fit is just a matter of sending them your measurements. If you wreck in a Motoport suit, you can send them your suit for repair. And their blend of Kevlar exceeds the 1988 Cycle Mag Taber test by 3.5 fold. BTW- do you have Taber test numbers for Kevlar used in the BMW or Aerostich suits?
Leather is best in my book, no matter what anyone else says. warranty.gif
But if you make a sudden stop against a post or car or whatever, the suit material doesn't matter much, just the padding / armor. It's not the fall that hurts, it's the sudden stop at the end. ohmy.gif
Hell, if you know you're not gonna crash, you might as well ride naked. I never know if I might crash. It's not likely, but you never know. goofy.gif So, ATTGATT! Whatever that gear might be. Just make sure it's good stuff.
End of thread · 28 posts recoveredWayback Machine snapshot 24 Oct 2006