Lbs 3.0 to 4.0 upgrade

Finally got it figured out and installed.

http://www.motorcycletiresplus.com/vfr/lbs_upgrade

To sum it up: this is the way it should have always been. ?:bow:

Raphael

smile.gif

Just thought to see if it were linked here already. And it was. wink.gif

You're a good man, Gijs ! ? tongue.gif

I updated the link. SV1k.com is no more...

Raphael: I saw this in the archives of the big list and was going to cross-post it here, and give full cred to you, but I see you've covered all the bases already!  :D

I'm going to give this some serious thought and maybe try it over the winter.

Thanks for the ingenious spirit you have to follow up on this and tread where no-one has before. Previous de-linking (or in this case, semi-de-linking) experiments have been lacking in detail and hard data, not to mention photos.

So to confirm my suspicion: is the Vtec LBS plumbed this way? Was that your model for routing the hoses?

L8R,
RM

If you wait till the winter, you're gonna kick yourself for waiting so long after you get it installed. ?:laugh:

To answer your question, no - the VTEC is not plumbed that way. It has a one-piece right caliper to begin with, so the crossover cable is not required. You can do that (drill the caliper), but it is irreversable, and it will mess you up if you want to go full conventinal later (the center right needs to be run from the secondary master).

With my system, you could have 4 custom lines made, and have your choice of LBS 3, LBS 4, or conventional - and be able to swap them around at will. That is the beauty of it all!

For example, if you take the bike to the track, you might want conventional brakes there, and then LBS 4 for the street - you can do that if you want! ?:cool:

Manaburn,

I have been contemplating this upgrade for a while to my 2000 VFR800.  However, my goals were:
 * To put all six front pistons under control of the front brake lever,.
 * Keep the caliper subassembly's master cylinder activating the single rear piston.
 * Separate the rear brake pedal from activating the front calipers.

The Bill of Materials is as follows:
1.  Earl's Performance Plumbing banjo hose ends (-3 Hose, .425" height, 10mm hole, steel constrution)
   (4) #600303ERL - Short non-adjustable
   (3) #601203ERL - 20 degree side bend adjustable
   (1) #600403ERL - Straight adjustable
   (3) #600502ERL - 30 degree bend adjustable

2.  Earl's Performance Plumbing banjo bolts (All bolts are M10x1.25, .425" fittings, 10mm hole)
   (3) #977518ERL - Double
   (3) #977515ERL - Single

3.  Earl's Performance Plumbing Speed-Flex line (Hose size 3, .25" in diameter)
   (1) #600003ERL - 14ft. bulk cut length.
   
4.  Front master cylinder from a 2000 CBR600F4i.

5.  Tools needed beyond ordinary hand tools.
   a.  Diamond cutoff wheels for Dremel, used to cut the line.  You can find them here for $10.
   b.  Mityvac or something similar for drawing the fluid through the lines.
   
After reading through your logic concerning the lever ratios, I wanted to get a master cylinder made to drive more and larger pistons.  Fortune was smiling on me, for I found such a unit from Alabama, and the price was right.  The difference between the VFR and the F4i master cylinder is a 1/2" and a 5/8" diameter piston, respectfully.  The F4i is designed to drive 8 pistons with a larger surface area than the ones in the VFR.  It uses the same brakelight switch and it is a simple R/R operation.

For the front calipers, I made two small junctions from the four short non-adjustable banjos and a 1.5" piece of line.  It is a little bit of a tight bend, yet it does not bind.  You can see from the pictures as to how they look.  

Since I was removing the rear pedal to front caliper connections, I did not need all the accessories hanging off the front fork legs.  The hard crossover lines, the delay valve, and the hard line from the rear reservoir was removed.  My first mistake was cutting and removing that hard line.  Not only did it provide pressure from the rear master cylinder to the front left caliper, it also supplies the subassembly's M/C with fluid to power the single rear piston.  Lesson learned, another trip to Industrial Liquidators to get an additional six feet of line.  I replace the hardline with a section of stainless steel line, using the two 30 degree side bend adjustable banjo hose ends.

If I were to do it over again, I would have purchased part number #640703ERL -Speed-SealTM Female 10mm x 1.25 Convex (IF) to joint the hardline to the stainless steel line and then to the 30 degree bend banjo hose end, going into the subassembly M/C.

Once everything was assembled, it was time to bleed this monster.  The front brakes were not very difficult.  Starting with the lowest bleed valve, I pulled the fluid through the entire line on each side, then moved to the upper bleed valve.  To get fluid running through the rear system, follow the instructions in the service manual.  I went through almost a quart of Valvoline Synthetic brake fluid bleeding the brakes and the clutch.

The total time for the installation, even taking in account for my myopia, was about six hours, being very methodical.  

So far the initial impression is there is more power going from the lever to the calipers.  It does require less lever movement to get some serious clamping force generated.  With the combiniation of this modification and the Galfer Wave Rotors, I should not have a problem stopping.  

If you have any questions, feel free to contact me.  I will be posting pictures later on today.

Enjoy.

Here is what the installation looks like.

The first picture here shows the front wheel from the left side.
[image: user posted image] (screen.width/2)){this.width = (this.width/2)}" onclick="javascript:window.open('http://members.cox.net/powerusers/brakes/front_left1.jpg','','scrollbars=1,toolbar=1,resizable=1,menubar=0,directories=0,status=0')" border="0" alt='Posted image'>

This is also a view from the left side, showing more of the lines and connection points.
[image: user posted image] (screen.width/2)){this.width = (this.width/2)}" onclick="javascript:window.open('http://members.cox.net/powerusers/brakes/front_left2.jpg','','scrollbars=1,toolbar=1,resizable=1,menubar=0,directories=0,status=0')" border="0" alt='Posted image'>

This is from the right side.  Notice how clean this side looks without all the delay valve and extra hoses.
[image: user posted image] (screen.width/2)){this.width = (this.width/2)}" onclick="javascript:window.open('http://members.cox.net/powerusers/brakes/front_right1.jpg','','scrollbars=1,toolbar=1,resizable=1,menubar=0,directories=0,status=0')" border="0" alt='Posted image'>

This is the view I have from my point of view.  If you can tell the difference between the VFR and F4i master cylinder, you have better eyes than I.
[image: user posted image] (screen.width/2)){this.width = (this.width/2)}" onclick="javascript:window.open('http://members.cox.net/powerusers/brakes/riders_view.jpg','','scrollbars=1,toolbar=1,resizable=1,menubar=0,directories=0,status=0')" border="0" alt='Posted image'>

Enjoy.

Wow, Aziza, that looks great! What was the total cost?

And can you go into some detail about how the brakes function now? Power? Feel?

So lemme get this straight: the front lever actuates all 6 front pistons, the rear lever actuates the outer two rear pistons, and the secondary M/Cyl on the forks operates the center rear piston via the L/H caliper's braking torque, is that right?

So, you still have a link from front to rear, just a very slight one. And only when using the front lever. Did I get all that?

You got the configuration correct.  I very rarely hit the rear brake pedal while moving.  It is just there to hold me at a stoplight.

The cost of materials are broken down like this.
 Hose, fittings, banjo bolts - $166.19
 2000 CBR600F4i front master cylinder, with brake switch and lever - $45 from ebay.
 One quart of brake fluid - $5

I can say I have more force being made at the lever with less movement.  After putting on a new set of Pirelli Diablos in preparation for the Two-up class this friday, I had John ride it to judge the brakes again his R1.  His R1 has more initial bite, but they are very close in deceleration and control.  It only take a middle finger to stand the bike on its nose if you want to.

So, for about half the price of the 11 line Galfer stainless steel brake line kit, I have produced a braking system that is what I wanted all along.  I will know more after this weekend as to the full strengths/weaknesses of the system.

Oh, BTW, the first Pirelli lasted 7100 miles, while I still have over half the tread on the second rear tire with 3000 miles on it.

Enjoy.

After the Two-up track day, I will have to give the system it two thumbs up.  I had all the braking power I can ever use, and the control to do minute adjustments while inflight.  The changes I had to do to my riding style was reduce the pressure applied to the lever, and to move the lever closer to the throttle.  

If anyone is interested in duplicating this setup and would like any assistance, feel free to contact me.

Enjoy.

Leave it to Randal to find the perfect solution to the VFR lack luster brakes. I wish there was a way to upgrade my 94 brake system by replacing the brakes with larger calipers and master cylinder. The back is just fine as I rearly use it. Then all I would need is the 840 mod.  :cool:

I think the page is down for this link
"  http://www.sv1k.com/vfr/lbs_upgrade"

Anyone know where i can download the info for this upgrade ?

You can find it on www.vfr750.com too.

ULEWZ, Sep. 15Leave it to Randal to find the perfect solution to the VFR lack luster brakes. I wish there was a way to upgrade my 94 brake system by replacing the brakes with larger calipers and master cylinder. The back is just fine as I rearly use it. Then all I would need is the 840 mod. ?:cool:

ULEWZ: my winter recipe is going to be this:

- Get the lower/outer tubes from a VTR.
- Get the 4-piston brake calipers of a VTR.
- Get the larger master cylinder of a F4.
- Throw in a '94-'97 VFR.
- Shake well.

Result: VFR with better brakes and impressive front-end look. All parts should bold right on. Cost is minimal.

afterburn, Sep. 15

ULEWZ, Sep. 15Leave it to Randal to find the perfect solution to the VFR lack luster brakes. I wish there was a way to upgrade my 94 brake system by replacing the brakes with larger calipers and master cylinder. The back is just fine as I rearly use it. Then all I would need is the 840 mod. ?:cool:

ULEWZ: my winter recipe is going to be this:

- Get the lower/outer tubes from a VTR.
- Get the 4-piston brake calipers of a VTR.
- Get the larger master cylinder of a F4.
- Throw in a '94-'97 VFR.
- Shake well.

Result: VFR with better brakes and impressive front-end look. All parts should bold right on. Cost is minimal.

Please take lots of pictures when you do this. I am very interested in what you are doing. Instructions with a parts list would also be great.  :p

It might be possible to make some adapter brackets to mount a set of F3/F4/F4i/VTR  calipers to the front forks.  I have a set of F4 calipers at home.  I would need a willing victim to allow me to take some measurements....

The F4 calipers are for the Ninja 250R.  It needs more front end bite.

Enjoy.

afterburn, Sep. 16- Get the lower/outer tubes from a VTR.
- Get the 4-piston brake calipers of a VTR.
- Get the larger master cylinder of a F4.
- Throw in a '94-'97 VFR.
- Shake well.

Ferodo makes an oversize rotor kit that has adaptor brackets for the stock VTR calipers.

http://www.braketech.com/factorybody.html

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Or, there's the full race 6 piston caliper setup. PFM iron rotors and calipers. They have them on closeout right now.

http://www.braketech.com/cgi-bin....from=20

Just bring money! ? :laugh:

Unfortunately, those would not work, unless you had the VTR forks.  They would not bolt directly to the VFR.  The brackets move the existing calipers out to accept the larger diameter brake discs.

So close yet no banana.

AzizaVFR, Sep. 16It might be possible to make some adapter brackets to mount a set of F3/F4/F4i/VTR ?calipers to the front forks. ?I have a set of F4 calipers at home. ?I would need a willing victim to allow me to take some measurements....

The F4 calipers are for the Ninja 250R. ?It needs more front end bite.

Enjoy.

My bike will be available at MTCtrackday at Willow Springs Oct 29, 03. Are you going Randal?

After making the front lever control 5 pistons instead of 4, and the rear controlling 3 - the rear bacame very weak and unresponsive. I replaced the rear master cylinder with a 14mm from a CBR F4, and that worked perfectly. The rear is now responsive, the front is powerful - exactly what I wanted. I highly reccomend this modification!

AzizaVFR, Sep. 16Unfortunately, those would not work, unless you had the VTR forks. ?They would not bolt directly to the VFR. ?The brackets move the existing calipers out to accept the larger diameter brake discs.

So close yet no banana.

Afterburn stated that he was looking @ getting the fork lowers from a VTR1000, so in that case, yes, it would work. Not sure about the VFR's wheel, whether the bolt pattern was the same as the VTR or not (for mounting the discs). If not, then you'd need the VTR front wheel & spacers, etc.

I imagine that one-fingered stoppies would be the norm with those 320mm pie plates out front. Especially with the PFM 6 piston calipers.   :wow:

The VTR (superhawk?) has the same disc's, both in size and offset as the VFR. The VFR wheel bolts right in, although I may need to get the VTR axle and axle spacers. So... if it fits the VTR, it should fit a modified VFR too. Hmmm....  :wow:

I spent $85 on this upgrade ($65 for crossover cable, $20 for rear master). You guys are talking about spending much more than $85. It's not about how much $ you spend - it's all about the [master cylinder to caliper] ratio.

If anyone wants to come to Upstate, SC and take my modified VFR for a spin to test the brakes - the invitation is open.

ManaBurrn, Sep. 24I spent $85 on this upgrade ($65 for crossover cable, $20 for rear master). You guys are talking about spending much more than $85. It's not about how much $ you spend - it's all about the [master cylinder to caliper] ratio.

If anyone wants to come to Upstate, SC and take my modified VFR for a spin to test the brakes - the invitation is open.

I'd love to, but.... it can be awhile as I don't exactly live next door. Then again, my 750 doesn't have DCBS, but that won't stop me from taking a testdrive! *g*

Actually, I think the rear brake on the VFR750 is too powerful. I have heard of many riders locking up the rear wheel unintentionally on this model. The rear master cylinder on the VFR750 I believe is 12.7mm (1/2") which is very small, especially for a rear master cylinder. That puts the ratio at 9.0, which is the highest I have seen for a rear brake.
For reference, a stock VFR800 is 6.7, a SuperHawk is 7.5, and my VFR (even after all my modifications) is "only" 7.9. I am just talking about the rear brake here.

AzizaVFR, Sep. 09Here is what the installation looks like.

The first picture here shows the front wheel from the left side.


This is also a view from the left side, showing more of the lines and connection points.


This is from the right side. ?Notice how clean this side looks without all the delay valve and extra hoses.


This is the view I have from my point of view. ?If you can tell the difference between the VFR and F4i master cylinder, you have better eyes than I.


Enjoy.

Very nice, Randal! I can't beleive I hadn't seen it until now. I have two questions: The short hoses - were they made with a bend, or did you put the bend in them? And can you reverse where the bend is to point inward, because with my luck, that exposed loop would catch something, and I would have no brakes. ?:wow:

Randal,

Is my impression that your setup omits the rear M/C activation of the front caliper? I don't see that hose.

I'd love to do a variation on this to my '02, keeping the (front) secondary activation of the rear, but completely eliminating the rear application of the front. The problem is the line from the PCV to the front makes a stop at the seconday MC and (apparently) serves as its fluid reservoir. This line has a double inlet banjo and, I presume will need to be replaced.

Does your generation of LBS have this line and, if so what did you do with it?  I think I see another braided line in the background of your left side images, but can't tell what it does.

thanks,

vfrjim2002,

You are correct.  The rear pedel has no interaction with the front calipers at all.  The other SS line you see is the one ran from the rear M/C to the front secondary M/C to supply it fluid.  It stops there.  

My system did have this line.  I replaced or removed all the lines to do with the front calipers.  The line you speak of could be replaced with a small SS line with a standard banjo hose end and a fitting to connect to the hard line just above the front fender.

Manaburn,

The small lines on the front calipers, connected the pistons, were made to fit.  That was the smallest I could make the lines without bending them so tightly to crimp the internal space.  I cannot bend the lines the other way, due to how the calipers are built.  They have a raised section just behind the banjo bolts, creating an obstruction.  I tried to make them smaller, using a right angle connector, but the distance between connections could not make perfect, hence the very small connectors and the small bend you see.

I have not has a single problem with them catching on anything.  If something hits them, the next thing you would experience is be vaulted off the bike.  They barely stick out from the calipers.

Enjoy.

Randal -

Great - thank you! Would you mind if I added your pics and description to my page as an example of a full conversion?

And one more question - what is your confuguration now out back?

Thanks Randal. BTW, how do you bleed the "supply" line to the secondary M/C?

jim

To bleed the supply line, you pull fluid through the rear proportioning valve, located under the seat next to fuel tank, and also at the caliper.  The Honda service manual has the process I followed.

The rear caliper is activated in the OEM fashion, with the two outside piston connected to the rear brake pedal, and the middle piston ran by the secondary from master cylinder.

Enjoy.

Ok guys - suppose I swap the front end on my bike for one off a 929...I have to delink the brakes entirely, so how do I get the rear brake pedal to control all the pistons of the rear caliper, with two lines running to the rear ?

My first thoughts are to use Aziza's 'mini-link' on the rear caliper along with a 14 mm rear master cylinder from a CBR F4.

I'd run a single line directly from the stock rear M/C to the rear caliper and probably bridge the inlets. My bike has very Ducati-esque rear brakes and could use a little more authority on demand. If you prefer less power at the rear, just plug the inlet for the single (center) piston.

Aziza,

Very thorough job!  

Ciao,

the link as the start appears to be broken :-(

Please update the link, and the pictures!
I can't see anything! sad.gif

PeC, Jun 15 2005, 03:43 AMPlease update the link, and the pictures!
I can't see anything! sad.gif

A mirror of the original webpage is being hosted on vfr750.com.

Be sure to thank VFRd member AfterBurn for his webhosting.

http://www.vfr750.com/mambo/content/view/27/39/

And scroll down a bit.

veefer800canuck, Jun 15 2005, 05:25 AMA mirror of the original webpage is being hosted on vfr750.com.

Be sure to thank VFRd member AfterBurn for his webhosting.

http://www.vfr750.com/mambo/content/view/27/39/

And scroll down a bit.

And this link/site is not working either....dang!

Any possibility of doing a repost? Thanks! - RandyB

E-Ticket, Aug 25 2005, 11:19 AMAnd this link/site is not working either....dang!

Any possibility of doing a repost?  Thanks!  - RandyB

Looks like the entire site is down. Maybe AfterBurn exceeded his bandwidth for the month?

Try again Sept 1st? Sorry, no other suggestions. sad.gif

Very very interested in this, but none of the links are working.

Can anyone direct me to a working link.

Try the wayback machine (you can google it if you dont know what it is). I can host it off my home server when I get home later on if someone has it saved.