We all love to ride and some of us love to ride with others, sometimes things don't turn out as well as we plan. This ride was supposed to be a nice ride to the STN National Meet In Montrose 2005 with several of us taking a small 15 mile there and back side trip through Cotchetopa Canyon, it turned out to be a tragedy.
I was leading and so as the leader I took a moment before we headed into the canyon and explained that the canyon road was tricky in places and it gets tighter as you head deeper into the rocks, with some very tight blind turns. Apparently with the size of the group I did not get everybody's attention and that detail slipped.
I thought I was taking it at 80% of what I know I can ride, knowing I am not the fastest in the group, the pace (I thought) was both spirited but not beyond our limits - turns out that was more than what some were expecting. You can never tell really till you ride with somebody.
The seven miles there and back barely made it 3 miles when in one of those tricky blind curves took one fella on a VFR (of all things) right off the road and two others behind him also. He just rode it right off the road. The last one to go down broke his back and was hospitalized for over a month. It was awful. I did not show that in the video but at the very end you can glimpse the first rider beginning to ride off the road. Its a wonder it wasn't worse. I don't allow accident photos or videos here anyway per the VFRD Rules. It is more or less a video of mistakes common on many group rides, count them, categorize them, analyze them, whatever but use them for some good later.
All I can say is if your in a group with riders you don't know ride slower than you usually do and create a buffer zone between you and them just in case the worse happens - forbid it. Don't ride too close, don't let your pace go past your level of comfort, and don't charge ahead into a blind turn even though the others are. You have to ride your own ride so ride smart.
[image: user posted image] Tricky Corner
The VIDEO media.gif STN Cotchetopa Canyon Ride
No music just my Staintune and the voices of the others Josh in particular took interest in my camera.
The Map [image: user posted image] cotchetopa map
The Terrain [image: Click for full size]
I have looked at this video several times and Number one I was leading too fast for such a large group, I let the guy behind me push me faster than I wanted to lead for the group, he even said it later I am surprised you were not going faster. I know how fast I could have gone but with so many riders I don't know in the group I should have just let him go on past. My mistake was not letting him pass he wanted to go faster so I should have waved him on. Instead I stayed in the lead and cranked it up right where it started to get tighter. Fun for me but well it turned out bad. I actually kept on riding for a mile or so more while most every body turned back.
Second the group who went down were following each other too close, two were father and son so thats natural but they were following the first rider much too close. I mentioned that I had passed this fellow on Monarch pass on a double lane section cause he slowed down unexpectedly in the middle of a turn, rolling off instead of just leaning the bike over and letting it ride. I ended up switching lanes and rolling on by cause rolling off while leaned over fully is not good. Its always easier for me to maneuver out of the way than to brake.
I ended up directing traffic from the scene and getting eaten alive by mosquito's. If you find yourself in a large group just take it easy and enjoy yourself and ride smarter than we did.
Thanks for the honest recap of what probably happened. Too many times I have let the peer pressure get the best of me putting me and the entire group in potential danger. Its hard to lay off the throttle when everything is going so well. I appreciate your input and I hope others learn from your account. T
This paticuar corner has taken out semi trucks, bikes cars you name it. The first time we rode this section my buddy and I happened on an overturned truck carrying live chickens its was chaos, I lost my bearings and wasnt sure which corner was which and charged the corner too fast, I made and so did the two behind me but 3 others did not. I should have just put my hand up to warn the others and rolled off then juiced it after I could see through the turn. Hindsight is 20/20
I don't know how many times I have been guilty of riding beyond my abilities just because I was in a group. Seems to stress me out too. Now that I am older I don't feel the pressure to stay up with the group and either just ride alone or stay within my riding abilities.
I'll add to Slammer's excellent cautionary tale. I too was involved in a large group ride with folks I'd never met before. Although we were on roads familiar to me, I felt that there was a bit too much testosterone at play. There were several instances where I felt people were too close and I even had my own moment or two, but that didn't sink enough into my thick head.
We had missed a turn and the group came to another abrupt stop. We turned around and were heading back when an approaching cage started waving madly at us. This obviously grabbed my attention and I was wondering what this was all about. When I looked back in front of me, a rider had stopped dead in the middle of the road. Although I was able to scrub off a lot of speed, I punched him in the rear tire and we both went down. Although neither one of us was hurt, he ended up with rushed plastics (Hint: He had just repainted from an earlier incident) and I ended up with a bent steering stem.
Oh, and the reason that the cage was waving at us was that a BMW rider (not part of our group) was overtaking one of the guys in our group and took him down. So in the course of 1 mile, there were 4 bikes down.
Now I'm no stranger when it comes to a spirited ride, but I vowed right then and there that I would never again participate in that kind of a ride with people that I did not know. I split my riding about 50/50 solo versus group. But the group I ride with are guys that I know and trust. There's no chest-pounding going on and we're all of a similar skill level and mind-set.
Live (thankfully) and learn (definitely). warranty.gif
+1.gif on sharing this with us all.....definitely good food for thought.
I went on a ride last week having only ridden with one member of this group before.
There was also another guy(on a VFR) that was a regular riding bud of one of the riders, but had not ridden with anyone else in the group either.
So I was in position 3 out of 5 with the "new VFR guy" directly in front of me behind the leader.
Leader was running a quick pace which was fine for me but the second rider(VFR guy) was riding sooooo close to the leader that I backed off a bit as I knew that his following distance was dangerous. If there had been any sort of problem, there was only 1 1/2 -2 bike( 1/2 second) length distance between #2 and the leader, and at those speeds............... blink.gif
The guy did this all day long so I just stayed back a bit to give some extra room.
I guess common sense is a relative thing blink.gif
I stopped going on the large group rides for the same reasons. I was able to meet some cool riders that way however, but watching people crash and the aftermath was not fun.
I prefer to ride with a small group of well known individuals. Everyone respects each other and rides within their comfort zone. Ocassinally we get a new rider invited to the group, we always go over the ground rules and make sure everyone knows them.
Gfacter, Jan 4 2006, 03:44 PMI prefer to ride with a small group of well known individuals. Everyone respects each other and rides within their comfort zone. Ocassinally we get a new rider invited to the group, we always go over the ground rules and make sure everyone knows them.
Same here....going over some ground rules is always a good idea. Always surprises me that more groups don't seem to do this? blink.gif
My friend Chuck wrote some "hard Ass" riding rules, after newbie showed up on one of his rides a year back or so and crashed in the first real corner of the ride.
Turns out the guy was invited by a decent rider we know (just so he could get a deal on his car stereo) and only had about 3 months riding experience.
This was a going to be a +300 mile ride into West VA.
Now if anyone invites a new rider to the group, they have to wear full gear (no sneakers and no jeans) and the inviter is responsible for the new rider for the entire ride.
I had an experience this past summer that resulted in some seat cushion being inhaled, but no one was hurt or went down. (DUMB LUCK)
We had an exceptional wet spring and in some areas piece of road were washed away. One warm day 3 of us we playing on a familiar road that has excellent twisties at the start and the end of the road, but a relatively straight section in the middle. Two us us were going for it and the third guy wasn't into our foolishness and had hung back somewhat. We came out of the last twisty at a pretty fine clip only to find the road had washed out previously and a temporary repair had been made with about 6 inches of walnut sized gravel and about 50 Yards or better in length.
Thank goodness we were vertical when we hit the gravel. Creative breaking, the gravel itself (like a truck run out lane) and a fair amount of praying brought us to a safe stop with hearts racing and sweat beading on our stupid foreheads. Clean panties came later.. The friend riding drag was about a mile behind us and said he could see the dust we kicked up from there. I shudder to think what would have happened if there had been a tight group formation following, not just one bike!
Like our fearless CEO points out; ride within your limits and don't always anticipate the road traveled today is going to be the same as it was yesterday.
out of all the guys i ride with its preaty much set on the order we ride in. most experenced in the front and least in back followed by me last. i'm what my friends call a safe rider. i'm personally in favor of enjoying the ride not dragging my knee on every corner. at least this way we don't have to worry about getting to closely grouped together. anyone new to the group usually fends for themselvs but is told to ride in there limits. it seams to work in our group. not to mention it preaty cool riding behind everyone and hearing the music of a ducati, aprilla, buell, a 93 vfr ,a 1200 kawasaki and my vfr all singing together.
This is a good reminder of why I don't like to ride in groups. Most folks that I would ride with around here are much better/faster riders, and I'm a little too competetive a person to not try and keep up even a little bit. The only thing I like about riding with other folks is that if I do go down, there's someone there with me to help. I sometimes look around when I'm out in the middle of nowhere having a good time on a twisty road and wonder how long it would be before someone found me if I lost it.
Wow, lots of bad stories. I really can't fault Slammer for not going slower. Everyone should always ride within their own abilities. I followed guys for months as the slower rider, and never over did it. Maybe I was lucky. Lee and I always tell riders that we are not familiar with to ride their ride, and don't worry, we always wait at the stop sign. In all the years riding, we only had one guy go down that was with us. He overcooked a corner, hit the brakes in some soft sand, and went down. He was fine, but messed up his bike. When we have lots of riders, it always ends up being multiple groups. The fast riders loose the slower riders in the 1st turn. This is just my opinion so please don't flame me. I hope everybody has a safe 2006. smile.gif
I can empathise Miguel having been in similar position.
"When you first start to ride you have a bag full of luck and an empty bag of expirience. The trick to survival is to fill the bag of expiriences before you run out of your bag of luck."
I actually posted a while back on a local site about the responsibility of a lead rider when there are newbs in the group. I was on a ride where the group got separated, and two inexperienced riders (in their first year of riding) were being led through traffic at crazy speeds, passing on the shoulder, etc. to avoid getting further separated. The guy was riding like an idiot, and I just let him go. The thing is, the two riders looked up to the guy as a role model, and were learning from him. Talk about learning BAD habits. One of them was a friend of mine and I talked to her afterwards to be sure she didn't think that this was "normal".
It's always important to arrange frequent stops, and stress that you don't mind waitng for slower riders. I often tell them I appreciate the rest after an adrenaline rush. That takes the pressure off them and lets them just ride their own pace and enjoy it.
I've always felt that as experienced riders, we have an obligation to "give something back" to the riding community by helping others learn. New riders look to experienced ones for ettiquette, technique, etc. Its so important to set a good example... it will probably save somebody's life one day!
gord0001a, Jan 5 2006, 12:49 PMI actually posted a while back on a local site about the responsibility of a lead rider when there are newbs in the group. I was on a ride where the group got separated, and two inexperienced riders (in their first year of riding) were being led through traffic at crazy speeds, passing on the shoulder, etc. to avoid getting further separated. The guy was riding like an idiot, and I just let him go. The thing is, the two riders looked up to the guy as a role model, and were learning from him. Talk about learning BAD habits. One of them was a friend of mine and I talked to her afterwards to be sure she didn't think that this was "normal".
It's always important to arrange frequent stops, and stress that you don't mind waitng for slower riders. I often tell them I appreciate the rest after an adrenaline rush. That takes the pressure off them and lets them just ride their own pace and enjoy it.
I've always felt that as experienced riders, we have an obligation to "give something back" to the riding community by helping others learn. New riders look to experienced ones for ettiquette, technique, etc. Its so important to set a good example... it will probably save somebody's life one day!
Thats the reason for a responsible rear guard who can take over if people get lost, separated, or hurt. Obviously the rear guard needs to know the road / route. Therefore there is no reason for anyone to ride at a pace they are not comfortable with. The rear guard never over takes unless absolutely last resort and NEVER puts pressure on riders in front to speed up. All riders need to know who he or she is (introductions to all and a chat to strangers to make them feel at ease.)
The only crash I've ever had was during a group ride, on my red 02.
Maybe group rides should be thought of as being similar to putting together a team to accomplish something very important, akin to the importance of your life or limb.
Would you put a team together of unknowns and not even checking their resume's to construct a skyscraper? or write software that sends someone in outer space? etc etc.
Maybe I'm being a bit dramatic, but egos in group rides can easily get out of control, mine included. Hank
Well said HS at the end of the video. The first time I road with you in a large group you separated us into two groups of 4. One faster, one slower. I thought that was a good way to do it. We all knew where we were going and the faster group stopped every once in a while to wait for the slower group and a couple of those guys were painfully slow. It's always good to maintain a safe distance especially when passing cages in a tight canyon. Thanks for the reminders. I rode that canyon last year and there are some tricky corners. I took it nice and easy. It was a blast.
vfrgreg, Jan 4 2006, 10:29 PMThats the reason for a responsible rear guard who can take over if people get lost, separated, or hurt. Obviously the rear guard needs to know the road / route. Therefore there is no reason for anyone to ride at a pace they are not comfortable with. The rear guard never over takes unless absolutely last resort and NEVER puts pressure on riders in front to speed up. All riders need to know who he or she is (introductions to all and a chat to strangers to make them feel at ease.)
When I wrecked my '02, I was riding over my head but not because of any sort of amped up machismo. I wasn't trying to keep up with the faster riders in front - I was trying to keep ahead of the faster riders behind me. I didn't want to bog them down and, alas, it didn't occur to me to wave them by. I felt a lot of self-imposed pressure not to ruin their ride when I should have been worrying about my own ride. The idea of a known rear guard is a good one, especially if everyone is told that the rear guard will happily assume whatever pace is comfortable to those in the back.
Hey Slammer, don't beat yourself up. IMHO, you said what you should have said and did what you should have done, at least in regard to the riders that went off. Looking at the lean angles on the Duc you were not riding at an unreasonable pace at all. That left hander was just another corner - albeit a bit tighter and decreasing radius but well within the capabilities of any sport touring bike. The only mistakes I saw were some early apexes.
I lead quite a few rides every year and do the same talk you did. As in your group, full gear is expected, no exceptions. I even go up and have a one-on-one chat with any new to the group riders. "Please check your ego and ride your own pace on this ride. You'll be judged by your jokes at lunch, not by how fast you go. We'll wait at corner and stops." Yet they still go off.
By leading rides you are putting yourself out there for the group, expecting nothing in return except some good company. You're not running a school and charging a fee. They're all adults and responsible for their own actions.
By the way, was that a cigar cam and what length (mm) lens were you using?
I am posting a link to a norwegian site with some really cool videos. Check out the Norway section and especially the video called Sauda-R�ldal 2002. This road is fantastic to ride. Just 2 hours from where i live.
This link goes to a site where you "pay to view" the vids. blink.gif
AVFR, Jan 7 2006, 05:28 AMHi Nice video
I am posting a link to a norwegian site with some really cool videos. Check out the Norway section and especially the video called Sauda-R�ldal 2002. This road is fantastic to ride. Just 2 hours from where i live.
HI HS Thanks for the video and the honest reflection on what i am sure was a very stressful day. Living in Northern ireland we have a big sports bike following. Therefore weather permitting and on most Sundays there are large groups of riders out riding together. These groups can have a large degree of male testosterone in play with guys who ride maybe once a week or even less frequently.
There have been here as I am sure there is everywhere tragedies but there are also well organised and disciplined groups. I have to say that whether riding my VFR or Transalp I prefer to either be alone or in the rear of a group.
There is a BMW group which is open to all and runs along the following lines. There is a rider who wears a fluorescent bib and is always in the rear. he carries mobile phone etc to provide communication in case of emergency. the lead rider is always experienced and does the pep talk to everyone including new riders. This is the interesting bit though, at every left hand junction the rider behind the leader indicates and stops, the rest go on and this rider joins the back of the group but before the guy wearing the bib. This system continues therefore rotating the group through all places and providing a regular slowing down of the group and I would think helping them stay focused on their whereabouts in the group. I have never ridden with the group but others I know enjoy it tremendously.
On a safety note our police service run a BIKESAFE programme which can get you 10% off insurance if you complete it. They use and teach a system which allows riding safely but swiftly and they encourage this. Last year our Honda dealer sponsored a day and I think 35 -40 did it on that day. Apparently since its inception quite a number of years ago only one rider who has completed and passed the programme has become a road casuality statistic. Thanks for all the videos it is nice to see all that lovely weather you have. Regards Jak
I too believe in riding with individuals you know and trust. Like some said, it's easy to get carried away in some of those turns. Especially when you are typically a slower rider and the pace is riding faster than you're used to. I'm a medium paced rider in groups and especially in turns. If I was a fast rider, I would have purchased an open class sport bike instead. Ride safely. fing02.gif
HispanicSlammer, Jan 4 2006, 09:34 AMI have looked at this video several times and Number one I was leading too fast for such a large group, I let the guy behind me push me faster than I wanted to lead for the group, he even said it later I am surprised you were not going faster. I know how fast I could have gone but with so many riders I don't know in the group I should have just let him go on past. My mistake was not letting him pass he wanted to go faster so I should have waved him on. Instead I stayed in the lead and cranked it up right where it started to get tighter. Fun for me but well it turned out bad. I actually kept on riding for a mile or so more while most every body turned back.
Thanks for the posting Miguel. I actually spent the 2004 season doing the same soul searching, because of the same individual. I did quite a bit of riding with him and found that speed and limits were pushed much too often. When he wasn't leading he was riding someone's ass or cutting off other riders. When he was leading, people went down (we had 2 crashes on 2 separate rides that he led).
There are many faults here, but ultimately the most important lesson I learned was to ride with who you know and trust. I did a lot of big rides in 2004 (with riders numbering more than a dozen and up to 40) and scaled that back to groups smaller than 10 in 2005. I found that to be a lot more enjoyable.
The people who say "that's why I don't ride in groups" are missing an awful lot. When you have the right group put together, when everyone is on the same page and the roads are fantastic...well, that is one of the best feelings in motorcycling.
End of thread · 30 posts recoveredWayback Machine snapshot 19 Oct 2006