Justin W., Mar 10 2005, 11:08 PMSo you used the method in the attached article???
Something similar to it. I worked at the dealership and wasn't back there when they did it. It sounded like it though. Our dyno break in put about 50 miles on the bike.
I just read the article from the link, It seems to make sense, I sent my mechanic a email about the site to get his opinion. I just got my CRF450 back from him after getting a new piston and valve job. I may give the procedure a try the piston he removed looked good but did have some signs of blow by. Thanks for the food for thought. I am going to get a VFR in april.
I picked up on that site over a year ago and discussed that break in method with a lot of people.
The consensus it that if you do break it in hard, the bike will perform better overall. The only thing that we don't know for sure is if it puts a lot of excess wear on the moving parts that will come back to get you miles down the road.
Motoman says no it will not. I hope he is correct because I am going to get a new truck in the near future and plan on using that method to break it in. I also keep my vehicles over 200,000 miles for the most part and would not like a fast truck that will wear out in 70.000 miles or so.
The theory behind his madness seems good and those pictures of pistons that were broken in using his method are impressive.
Justin W., Mar 10 2005, 09:50 PM I was hoping to get some of the members comments about the attached link. Please have a read and post your take on the subject.
I recommend Moto Mans method... I've seen to many broken hearted customers with tail pipe smoke and high oil usage because the rings were not seat with enough pressure during the critical break in miles...
Also I've witnessed Honda employees build a bike in 12 minutes and run the engine to red line and hold it while they check left all the lights and horn... they know this helps not hurt a freshly minted engine because parts are separated by the strength of oil's viscosity... but the high rpm produces high pressures that helps seat rings...
Consequently every bike I've bought from a dealer hit red line before it was out of their sight...
I've discussed it with a few engine designers. They say don't do MotoMan method. I've also never seen it in a real technical manual on any level for any type of engine, from very small to incredibly large. Beware things that come solely from a wrench's experience with no engineer or scientist behind it. Not that wrenches can't figure out things (I'm amazed at people like BLS), but there's a lot of things out there that really are in place for a reason. Sometimes no, but usually yes, and I've found out more than one of them the hard way.
You will get better performance at the first part of your bike's life. There's also plenty of anecdotal evidence out there that your bike will run poorly later, since you prematurely aged the piston rings through work hardening rather than allowing thermal creep, simple wear, and other deformation mechanisms to set in instead (my theory as a materials science/MechE guy, not textbook theory). As the cylinder liner wears on and on, your rings won't be able to accomodate the expansion as they would if they hadn't have been strain hardened as much early in life. This is my "working theory" as to why engines broken in this way have poor performance later.
The things from break-in that cause you to get poor sealing of the rings is running a new engine at constant low-load RPM for a long time, where you get glazed cylinder bores. You should vary the RPM and put a decent load on it, but not run the snot out of it. Navy general break in for an engine, whether large main propulsion diesel or small gasoline engine is a regimented break in over up to 16 hours at different speeds and different power loads.
So, the answer is a break in method that doesn't harm the rings through too much strain, and doesn't glaze the bores through too little load that doesn't put enough strain on the rings and wears the bore through too much friction.
Another related myth is that such and such engines have "tighter" bearing clearances and don't need as much of a break in, or that you shouldn't be afraid of running it hard at first because of this. Its a little more complex than what I'm going to say as it requires a few equations and a couple different empirically derived charts, but in general tighter bearing clearances require lower viscocity oils. Motorcycles require fairly high viscocity oil because of the transmission, which means you have to design bearings that take higher viscocities, which implies a higher clearance. Not something you can tell just from a shop reference or micrometer either, as bearing dimensions, load, and lubricant really determine whether or not its a "tighter" clearance than another bearing in another bike. This isn't, in of itself, a bad thing from a design or reliability standpoint.
So why do they last longer and take more abuse in break in? Because manufacturing tolerances are lower with technology, and we're constantly improving our abilities to design and manufacture engines through refinement in materials and solid design tools. Twenty years ago we couldn't expect to simulate some of the things going on inside engines...today we can.
I first learned of this type of breakin from a military jeep mecanic when I was in my teens. He swore that hard aceleration and long compression brakeing cycles were the way to break in a motor. Not to thrash the motor and dont let it get near over heating. Take it to 80percent of red line and then a long compression brake for 20/25 miles. Bring it in and change the oil. This is how I just broke in my new 04 as I have 15 or 20 new bikes a dozen pickups. I now have 1733 miles on the VFR and have changed oil 3 times. Last time was at 1500 with mobil 1 red cap. I feel like I'm good to go for a long long time. However I am totaly anal about changing oil, even with the synth. I will change every 1500 miles. Regular half that distance. Scootr will have some words for us on this I'll bet :)
I talked with an engineer about this method...he said the metal in the engine is designed to harden more with the heat during the break-in process. He thought it was stupid to stress the metal when it hadn't yet hardened fully.
Betamax, Mar 12 2005, 10:28 PMI talked with an engineer about this method...he said the metal in the engine is designed to harden more with the heat during the break-in process. He thought it was stupid to stress the metal when it hadn't yet hardened fully.
as mentioned earlier....that metal has been heat stressed by far higher temps than your motor had better ever see.
I agree with Shipfixer, modern engines using modern rings do not need to wear to seat. Rings seat by their design and most importantly by cylinder pressure. 2nd ring gap plays a huge roll in oil consumption. Wider gap relieves pressure trapped under top ring that unseats it during exhaust stroke which is where most, ~80%, oil consumption occurs. Steel alloys are full hard from quenching, no additional heat does anything and steel will go back to full soft after hitting annealing temp of ~ 1400 F. Aluminum on the other hand, is age hardened, by adding temp it will get harder over time and I have to wonder about bike engines as they use aluminum cylinders ? I doubt they get hot enough for this and I really doubt any OEM would allow it. Nobody designs an engine that would get harder or softer in operation. They make them the way they need to be in the first place. How else could you control how it operates ? NFW. I've run 10,000's of dyno test and we measure oil consumption real time, while they are running and have yet to see the break-in effect, on modern engines. In the old days of chrome rings and cylinders, maybe so, but that was 40+ years ago. Don't even start the "you can't break in using syn oil " debate :(
Ship...if you are ever looking for a good job in Texas please give me a call ! And that goes for you too Lurkinmerkin...
Well we have, as usual, :goofy: a variety of opinions on this one. The only better subject would be oil, but that too is a looser now that we have the Scoot to show us the way. :D
Maybe a middle of the road approach is the way to go.
Those pictures of pistons broken in under his method vs. conventional methods are interesting.
Maybe also the conventional method of engine break in as written in most new car/bike manuals are written for the masses (AKA--Asses) so that people in general don't get themselves in trouble.
What would really be cool would be to see the results of a long term, carefully documented and scientifically controlled experiment that used a slow, medium and hard break in procedure on a few different engine designs done with no preconceived agenda in mind except --- da troot.
I'll add some more. We also run radioactive wear test where we can measure wear rates on rings, cylinders, rocker arms, cams, etc... Rings and liners tshow high initial wear rate levels, normal as parts are new, and this last about 24 hours maybe and then stabilizes.
Big factor on oil consumption is oil ! Oil can leave deposits that interfere with ring seating/function and can wear cylinders out from carbon build up on piston crown and lands, block pressure/blowby, etc... one of the biggest things we test for on certified oil tests BTW. Also oil volatility is a factor and is controlled by OEM engine oil specs. Oil consumption is mainly from rings, either between ring and liner or behind rings and evaporation of oil left on cylinder exposed to combustion. There is also an effect called irretrivable throw off, oil is thrown into chamber on up stroke in front/on top of top ring and burned off. Valve guides can add some under closed throttle high vacuum and turbos can too leak into intake or exhaust. Piston deposits very sensitive to cylinder temps, duh, but realize oil related deposits are poor combustion of oil. Sometimes higher cylinder temps will lower them as they burn off or get completely combusted ! We see we can move the deposits up and down the piston depending on temp. I ran a test once with 340 F oil sump temps where only a syn oil survives, all additives in oil get killed from temp, pistons were clean, top of conrod had tons of carbon though.
Enough, I'm going riding ! I won't bore you all with all this oil talk.
ShipFixer, Mar 13 2005, 04:47 AMThe things from break-in that cause you to get poor sealing of the rings is running a new engine at constant low-load RPM for a long time, where you get glazed cylinder bores. You should vary the RPM and put a decent load on it, but not run the snot out of it. Navy general break in for an engine, whether large main propulsion diesel or small gasoline engine is a regimented break in over up to 16 hours at different speeds and different power loads.
Actually, this is about what motoman says. He tells you to give the engine a good work out and to regularly using engine braking to get rid of anything that may end up in the combustion chamber that you don't want there. He tells to vary alot between 40% and 80% of the rpm range. He does NOT say it's ok to redline it from the get go.
Enough, I'm going riding ! I won't bore you all with all this oil talk.
[/quote] Actualy scootr your not boreing anyone with this level of info. I'll go out on a limb here and speek for the herd. I think there are quite a number of us that really want a straight shot on whats really going on and In our respective trades arnt able to get this type of quaility exposure. I'm sure it getts a bit tedious and time consuming for you.Its a really big help and fastenating to boot. Now....if you ever need to know which end of a nail pound in a plank......I'm your guy! ;)
richmerrill, Mar 13 2005, 05:13 PMEnough, I'm going riding ! I won't bore you all with all this oil talk.
Actualy scootr your not boreing anyone with this level of info. I'll go out on a limb here and speek for the herd. I think there are quite a number of us that really want a straight shot on whats really going on and In our respective trades arnt able to get this type of quaility exposure. I'm sure it getts a bit tedious and time consuming for you.Its a really big help and fastenating to boot. Now....if you ever need to know which end of a nail pound in a plank......I'm your guy! ;)
/quote]
Thanks Bro, I'm blushing. I got the nail end figured out but no sure on which end of the hammer to hold as I keep hitting myself in the head with it ! I are a Aggei ya know :goofy: :beer:
I followed the motoman guide pretty much. I ran through the gears, 1 to 4 anyway, at full throttle but never came close to redline. In between each of these accelerations I used engine compression braking. I started this procedure right out of the dealers parking lot. I ran it this way for about the first 25-30 miles of its life. I changed oil at 25 miles, 300 miles, 700 miles and at about 1200 miles I switched to Mobil1 red cap 15-50. I may have gone a little overboard with oil changes, but oil is cheap and my time is mine, the filters are kind of expensive though. Next time I'll probably make the switch to synthetic oil at 600 miles. The bike doesn't use any oil between changes (every 3000 miles) and runs great, except for the lean down sag at ~4500 rpm. So, it worked for me.
My bud Mark is a big performance hp type rider. He likes to reccomend a break in that involves lots of heat cycles, lots of oil changes, and no long highway drones for a couple thousand. He says go ahead and use the cheap $1 a quart oil, but just change it every few hundred miles. If you baby it, it likely will not make hp down the road. He puts 10k very hard miles a year on a built Gixxer 1000 motor with no motor issues.
I agree with the cylinder pressure break in. I did this with my new bike and it ran great and burned no oil. I did the same with my 94 Z28 and it has 120K and burns no oil.
For bike break in, I got a case of dino oil and changed at 20, 40, 100, 200. No need to change the filter till 600.
You won't believe the metal flakes that come out at 20 miles. I went for another 20 mile ride and drained it again and got less but still some major flakes. At 100 miles you still see the burs from the gears and some shavings. At 200 miles the oil looked good but there was still some silver at the bottom of the pan when you see it in the sun light.
PS If you do not drain out the large flakes, they do NOT get to the oil filter. There is a screen to protect the oil pump that prevents most anything you can see from getting to the filter.
afterburn, Mar 13 2005, 04:18 PMActually, this is about what motoman says. He tells you to give the engine a good work out and to regularly using engine braking to get rid of anything that may end up in the combustion chamber that you don't want there. He tells to vary alot between 40% and 80% of the rpm range. He does NOT say it's ok to redline it from the get go.
His page and methodology is quite cleaned up from the last time I looked at it last year, when it was much shorter and basically said "flog your bike hard for fifty miles and then change the oil" - but I still disagree with him regardless of how much more effort he's put into making his method look nice and pretty. ;)
On the dyno, he indeed builds you up to redline. On the street, he tells you to pull full throttle on the bike for hard acceleration. Transients like this are hard on engines just like full load conditions (which isn't the same thing necessarily as "redline"). He also tells you to vary this in short bursts. Avoiding running at one RPM for too long with a new engine is really as simple as downshifting and upshifting from time to time on the highway. You don't have to be constantly varying RPM. We do it by spending fifteen to thirty minutes at a set RPM/load, then changing it. Even with the craptacularly brittle Italian engines LASTSHIP had, I've never seen poor break in of rings by this. Matter of fact - I had the best compression and most power on the waterfront from my main engines according to the tech reps and pulled more propeller pitch than the other guys :wheel: Not because of anything I did, but we did do things by the recommended procedures.
I also don't see why he thinks engine braking will get rid of things that running hard in of itself won't. We "carbon burn" large diesels to get rid of those deposits after long periods of low load...small engines aren't that different, its just that we don't run dirty marine diesel fuel. If I lower the absolute pressure in a cylinder creating a vacuum, are objects stuck to the solid wall of the cylinder going to experience a pressure gradient that imparts movement, and get sucked off the side into the middle of the cylinder? Probably not, and if you have a MityVac you can experiment for yourself with drops of liquid on the side of the chamber...what should really matters is high temperatures to burn things out, and high gas velocity to blow things out.
Check out the rest of his page. At the bottom there's a short blurb that says smaller valve ports give "7% more power." On the particular engine that he's working on that's small displacement and high RPM he's probably right since velocity is important - but smart money says he just got lucky. Gas flow and combustion within the cylinder becomes highly three dimensional, particularly as RPM increases. As gas velocity increases, simple formulas for things like relating valve area to power break down and you need better simulation tools to figure out what's going on inside the cylinder - I highly doubt he fired up CFD and did that, or went through enough cylinder heads for it to be considered a real controlled experiment.
He probably used an Edisonian approach and experimented, discovering that this combination gave him a good result - it may not work out so hot for your bike, and it may have other less desireable effects. Wrenching like this can come up with some good results...but it can have a lot of bad unexpected things too.
Baby the bike, no...but I wouldn't crank the throttle full open and do MotoMan's method either.
Baby the bike, no...but I wouldn't crank the throttle full open and do MotoMan's method either.
[/quote] And there you have it. I think this logic seems to be the consensus. The dangerous asspect of this thread and the various opinions would be someone finding an answer they wanted to hear and useing a single oppinion. Anyone that would go out and put max loads on a new pecice of machinery should be shot. If for no other reson than...you just spent ten GRAND! as a foot note, I thought the idea of compression brakeing cycles was not to nessisarily pruge the ring gap and cilinder walls as it was to set memery in the metal rings with postitve and negitive loading. ?? CRUM!! I have to go to friggin WORK....SORRY bout the spellin...... thanks fixer :D :D
Baby the bike, no...but I wouldn't crank the throttle full open and do MotoMan's method either.
Why would the manufacture to crack the throttle WFO (Wide Freek'n Open) and not the owner when the aim of both is to seat the rings in the least amount of time???
[quote=richmerrill,Mar 14 2005, 09:31 AM] Baby the bike, no...but I wouldn't crank the throttle full open and do MotoMan's method either.
[/quote] And there you have it. I think this logic seems to be the consensus. The dangerous asspect of this thread and the various opinions would be someone finding an answer they wanted to hear and useing a single oppinion. Anyone that would go out and put max loads on a new pecice of machinery should be shot. If for no other reson than...you just spent ten GRAND! as a foot note, I thought the idea of compression brakeing cycles was not to nessisarily pruge the ring gap and cilinder walls as it was to set memery in the metal rings with postitve and negitive loading. ?? CRUM!! I have to go to friggin WORK....SORRY bout the spellin...... thanks fixer :D :D
[/quote]
Get your firing squad together as mine was broken in on the dyno. We sold around 400 sportbikes a year and did dyno break ins on all of them. We never had one come back with engine problems. Everyone is going to have a different opinion of how to break in a bike..kind of like which oil to use, which pipes to buy, which windscreen works best, etc. Should I end up with a problem with my engine the bike will be under warranty until 2009, not that I will have it then but someone would be covered.
BusyLittleShop, Mar 14 2005, 04:18 PMWhy would the manufacture to crack the throttle WFO (Wide Freek'n Open) and not the owner when the aim of both is to seat the rings in the least amount of time???
Because you want to wear the cylinder liner into the piston ring - not deform the piston ring in ways that weren't intended in the process. I've never seen the OEM direct full throttle as proper break-in procedure. If this is the "correct" way and the manual is wrong, I should be able to find it in one of the journals I'm looking in. I've so far found all sorts of articles and data on piston ring wear...should be in here somewhere, its just a big pile of them to look through...
Hurricane249, Mar 14 2005, 04:27 PMGet your firing squad together as mine was broken in on the dyno. We sold around 400 sportbikes a year and did dyno break ins on all of them.
Never said they'd fail. I said they wouldn't do as well later in life ;) We're not talking about anything that would cause catastrophic failure, although the only thing that's saving the MotoMan method from doing so is the fact that modern manufacturing and honing processes are just really good.
Anyway, game on! :beer: I'm going to page through the engineering journals through our library here and see what I can find on piston ring break in. I also have a few e-mails out and about to see what designers say about it.
Get your firing squad together as mine was broken in on the dyno. We sold around 400 sportbikes a year and did dyno break ins on all of them. We never had one come back with engine problems. Everyone is going to have a different opinion of how to break in a bike..kind of like which oil to use, which pipes to buy, which windscreen works best, etc. Should I end up with a problem with my engine the bike will be under warranty until 2009, not that I will have it then but someone would be covered.
[/quote] Oh jeez! didnt mean you! ( sweating now...loosens tie) just be cool here Herk ol budd.....(run find my 9mm) I ment that Moto man aminal! Realy!
End of thread · 30 posts recoveredWayback Machine snapshot 22 Mar 2005
