I saw on another thread a reference to Blackstone Labs oil analysis and decided to give them a try. I got my report back and was wondering if anyone else has some data that they would like to share and compare?
I'm using Royal Purple 10w40, 3432 miles on the oil, 79136 miles on the engine. Sample included 1880 miles of TMac with plenty of hard use, i.e. high rpm and high mileage days. Rest was commuting and sporting days. I pulled the sample from the filler without changing the oil/filter.
The only concerns were elevated Iron and Copper. Probably due to the TMac running. Viscosity was a little low, and I sprung for the extra TBN test to see how the additives were holding up. They show a value of 4.9. Honestly I don't know exactly what that means, but should be above 1. They recommend changing within 1000 miles. Probably due to low-ish viscosity numbers.
This was my first test, so without any trends it's hard to see much. No water or fuel, though! (None was expected)
-- Interesting you got 3432 miles on your oil and Blackstone says change it within 1000. -- I like how you pulled a sample from the oil filter.
I would love to see ----- The great blackstone oil analysis thread. Real data and no bs. Maybe we could get a blackstone guy to give a large group discount. Possibly get 100 tests on Mobil MX 4T, Rotella T, Amsoil and a couple others. Check data at different intervals - 3500, 5500 and 8000 miles -------(whose the Blackstone guy?)
-- Interesting you got 3432 miles on your oil and Blackstone says change it within 1000. -- I like how you pulled a sample from the oil filter.
I would love to see ----- The great blackstone oil analysis thread. Real data and no bs. Maybe we could get a blackstone guy to give a large group discount. Possibly get 100 tests on Mobil MX 4T, Rotella T, Amsoil and a couple others. Check data at different intervals - 3500, 5500 and 8000 miles -------(whose the Blackstone guy?)
Actually, the filler. No "T". Just stuck a tube down it and pulled the sample out from a nicely warmed engine.
I'd like to see some numbers from Mobil riders, for sure.
$25 or $35 depending on what you'd like to measure. $25 for the standard and another $10 for the TBN to see how the additives hold up over mileage.
-- Interesting you got 3432 miles on your oil and Blackstone says change it within 1000. -- I like how you pulled a sample from the oil filter.
I would love to see ----- The great blackstone oil analysis thread. Real data and no bs. Maybe we could get a blackstone guy to give a large group discount. Possibly get 100 tests on Mobil MX 4T, Rotella T, Amsoil and a couple others. Check data at different intervals - 3500, 5500 and 8000 miles -------(whose the Blackstone guy?)
Actually, the filler. No "T". Just stuck a tube down it and pulled the sample out from a nicely warmed engine.
I'd like to see some numbers from Mobil riders, for sure.
$25 or $35 depending on what you'd like to measure. $25 for the standard and another $10 for the TBN to see how the additives hold up over mileage.
Filler makes more sense doesnt it..... --
--- See your data fans the flames and suggests that going to 8k miles may not be a good idea. One data point, but I would like a larger sample.
I would share it but I wouldnt know what to do with it, whats too much of this and not enough of that?
HS has it right here. In a previous life, I spent a couple of months taking oil samples from locomotives. They had a large database to work from. They were not, in general, worried about absolute levels of stuff unless it crossed a threshold. They did watch trends on all sorts of things, and if the level of Grozonium-12 was rising steadily, it meant that the frumium pump needed to be swapped out at the next service.
This sort of thing is useful if you have the database and you're trying to keep a fleet on the road bringing in the cash. For non-commercial vehicles, I'm not so sure. That said, data is always good, so if somebody wants to record oil test results, great!
I would share it but I wouldnt know what to do with it, whats too much of this and not enough of that?
That's why I'd like to see more tests. Only one on mine so far. Without the past 79 thousand miles worth it means not so much. Until I can build my own test database, might be interesting to see what others are seeing.
Also, Blackstone offers some "Universal Averages" on the test parameters. For example my iron number is 20 parts per million and they suggest 10 is the average. For copper, I'm at 21 ppm compared to 5 average. Might be nice to see numbers from the same engine types with similar mileages as opposed to their "Universal" numbers.
Just trying to offer an alternative to the age old "I've been running brand x for a thousand years and a billion miles with no problems" claims.
An oil sample database would be a cool thing to have and know, just not sure how practical it is would be for non-commercial vehicles as rdguy stated. I've taken a lot of samples for Cummins Diesel engines when I worked there. It gave us good information as far as determining an oil change interval and any wear issues with new internal engine components.
An oil change on a big engine like that can cost a couple hundred bucks though, so spending $25, or even $35, on an oil test could be worth the money if you extend your change out 50% longer. If you spend $30 on an oil change for the VFR, you would basically break even if you doubled your change interval by doing the samples. If you only extended your interval 20%, you basically lose money by doing it.
Maybe you just do the sample every other or every 3rd oil change to see if there is something else going on in the engine? Or maybe after you do 4 or 5 of them you can determine a good change interval and not have to continue to do them?
The next oil change I do, I think I am putting a Fumoto valve in though, so taking a sample would become easy if I wanted to do it.
A few years back there was someone on this site that posted the comparisons of technical data of various oils. Honestly, how many engines fail due to the type of oil put into them? Honda also does an enormous amount of testing and engineering on their motors - I've even seen a test on some TV show of a Honda Cub running only on oil from a deep fry machine. I feel 99.998 percent confident that I'll never have an issue with any Honda product as a result of oil.
Sent RT samples to Blackstone and got results back within four days. Really worth the cost-results showed really clean engine and could extend oil changes to 8300 miles. Too bad the rest of the bike was pure junk.
I believe state of Calif. is saying 3000 mile oil changes are a waste of resources.
So that is where I get interested. 8300 miles? Mine was 3432 and they recommend change within 1000 miles. What kind of riding on are you doing and what oil? Like I said, half of mine was TMac. That means pretty hard riding and long days for a week. Love to see what Matt's readings are after 10k miles, and I know how he rides!
I have had an engine go bye bye on me due to poor oil choice/changing. Turned out to be a con-rod bearing. So I am interested in keeping an eye on engine internal wear.
I chose to use the ridiculously expensive Royal Purple because two different mechanics that I trust (and were not trying to sell me anything!) recommended it. But is it really worth it? Say what you will, but without technical data it's just like religion and politics. You have your beliefs, and I have mine.
I have had an engine go bye bye on me due to poor oil choice/changing. Turned out to be a con-rod bearing. So I am interested in keeping an eye on engine internal wear.
I chose to use the ridiculously expensive Royal Purple because two different mechanics that I trust (and were not trying to sell me anything!) recommended it. But is it really worth it? Say what you will, but without technical data it's just like religion and politics. You have your beliefs, and I have mine.
There are many test out there already providing comparisons of different oil brands giving you the info your looking for w/o taking someones advice good or bad!
One thing I always remember from most I've seen is that Mobil 1 full syn always tested at or near the top and that Honda branded oil always tested near the bottom.
The only info you would need from sending in your own samples is How Long to run whatever brand that your running.
I only did two tests on my VFR, and the main reason, I was expecting the vfr motor to be alot easier on the oil, and I was seeing extreme detioration by 1000 miles. I just wanted to confirm what my eye was seeing. I switched oil as a result from(rotella 5w40) to amsoil 15w40 and it improved alot. At Around 15,000 miles I noted over all the oil started holding up much better. But I stick to the heavier oils, for more than 2,000 miles. Car oil 10w40 I tend to run only about 1500 mile.
I decided to go ahead and do mine at the last oil change. Of course I switched to Rotella at the time, so this one on GN-4 might have been a waste as far as determining good change intervals. Anyway, it gave me info on how the internals of the engine appear to be doing.
I have a report to post but do not know a good way to get the paper report on to the digital website.
If it was done through Blackstone, you can log into their site and access an electronic copy. If you have access to a fax machine, you can efax it to me and I will email it back to you.
I have a report to post but do not know a good way to get the paper report on to the digital website.
Use a scanner if you have one. Save as .jpg. Open in paint, and use the paint brush (in black) to black out your name, address, and phone number. Save that as something new and you're GTG.
I'm a bit baffled when the Blackstone analysts (in the report above) says that (referring to motorcycle engines) . . . "They run cooler than larger engines . . . " I wonder what he bases that statement on . . . it sure isn't my VFR's vs any of my 4 wheeled vehicles, that's for sure. Starting with my current oil change I installed a magnetic drain plug in the sump. When it's next removed I'll report on what it pick up from the oil.
So I've been intending to have an oil analysis done at least two bikes ago but my laziness seems to win over. This year, I turned my current VFR into a dedicated track bike and figured I might as well send in a sample. Only wish that I had done one before I started, yep why do today what you can put off until tomorrow. Anyway, here's a report for my 2004 after less than 500 track miles.
Not sure what to think just yet exept that I'm not exactly surprised and I probably ought to check that air filter. Would the copper be coming from the clutch plates?
My last report showed higher than normal copper, and I was curious. I couldn't find any answer, or problems. Blackstone sends out a "Newsletter" periodically. Don't know if any of you read it, or just spam it, but reading through it I found something interesting in the FAQ:
I sampled through a quick-drain release valve. Is that why metals are so high?
Maybe, depending on the type of drain and what’s reading high. Some of them are brass, and new ones leach oxides that
can throw copper off. But most of them don’t affect analysis at all.
So, last sample I sent was after I had installed a new Fumoto drain, which appears to be brass. :idea3:
My report, not the greatest news but its the facts. I think the the excess wear is from either some missed shifts and/or when I changed the air filter.
the hardened valve seats nowadays rarely wear, the valves on the other hand, and lets not forget piston and cylinder itself. I don't want to post mine, they would only create envy.
Our knowledge about gasolines hasn't made much progress if we suggest our engines need lead because primary use of tetraethyl lead was knock or detonation control but modern engines such as the VFR are engineer to meet and exceed mileage expectations on lead free fuels... running leaded racing fuel will not only drain your wallet needlessly but also add yellowish lead deposits to your spark plugs and combustion chamber... besides being a health risk lead is a high maintenance additive...
no you don't need or want a straight mixture, only enough to decarbonize and provide some top end lubrication benefit (it actually circulates throughout the motor), With a cat you definitely don't want anywhere near full strength, its too much for it to handle, just a cup or two per tank, and that really works across the board on any bike. The quality of the fuel makes a difference too, with end result.
By last uoa produced 4 ppm aluminum in 2500 mile oci, that's on a 110,000 mile vfr that hunts like a Cheetah.
Here's my recent analysis from Blackstone. The oil type and grade is not accurate on the form. I thought I had over 5k miles on the oil but I was mistaken; I had changed it more recently with a 50/50 blend of Rotella T6 5w40 + Mobil1 15w50... This oil had zero highway miles with all spirited country back roads riding and Ozark mountain runs.
I'm putting M1 5w30 in for TMAC... this will be a 3K mile road trip for me with 7 days of spirited riding in the middle. I will send that oil in for comparison.
Yeah, me too SwitchBlade... I stress my motor every time I ride and have usually gone 2k - 3k between oil changes; after finding out how poorly T6 rated I'm glad I hadn't stretched it to 5k... even this analysis showed mixed with M1 15w50 the viscosity had dropped significantly. I thought I was doing my engine a favor with the extra detergents & base of a synthetic diesel oil; UOA & oil stress test data shows different.
Here's my recent analysis from Blackstone. The oil type and grade is not accurate on the form. I thought I had over 5k miles on the oil but I was mistaken; I had changed it more recently with a 50/50 blend of Rotella T6 5w40 + Mobil1 15w50... This oil had zero highway miles with all spirited country back roads riding and Ozark mountain runs.
I'm putting M1 5w30 in for TMAC... this will be a 3K mile road trip for me with 7 days of spirited riding in the middle. I will send that oil in for comparison.
Man you guys really are in way over your heads and don't even know it is the sad part, that's way high metal count for a vfr , that's what BLS would look like at the same mileage, probably much worse, by his counts under 800 miles..
you guys and your 5w30 car oil need so see what a real set up is and how low metal count can be. Its not total destruction with your count, but your shedding more metal than needed.
if you can shed that much metal with a vfr, a normal bike that tends to shed a lot of metal would be crazy high.
I just ran a uoa on a ktm high strung race motor with 20w50, only 2000 miles on the motor, and its metals looked better than BLS's, VFR . which is pathetic in comparison. The vfr should look closer to a gold wing metal count. Just shows you guys need help.
Here's my recent analysis from Blackstone. The oil type and grade is not accurate on the form. I thought I had over 5k miles on the oil but I was mistaken; I had changed it more recently with a 50/50 blend of Rotella T6 5w40 + Mobil1 15w50... This oil had zero highway miles with all spirited country back roads riding and Ozark mountain runs.
I'm putting M1 5w30 in for TMAC... this will be a 3K mile road trip for me with 7 days of spirited riding in the middle. I will send that oil in for comparison.
Man you guys really are in way over your heads and don't even know it is the sad part, that's way high metal count for a vfr , that's what BLS would look like at the same mileage, probably much worse, by his counts under 800 miles..
you guys and your 5w30 car oil need so see what a real set up is and how low metal count can be. Its not total destruction with your count, but your shedding more metal than needed.
if you can shed that much metal with a vfr, a normal bike that tends to shed a lot of metal would be crazy high.
I just ran a uoa on a ktm high strung race motor with 20w50, only 2000 miles on the motor, and its metals looked better than BLS's, VFR . which is pathetic in comparison. The vfr should look closer to a gold wing metal count. Just shows you guys need help.
Have you done any BLS reports on your oil in the VFR ?
I guess I could better understand the BLS reports if your BLS reports show a better results .
For me and from what I have read no more Rotella and 1500-2000 miles oil changes ARE GOOD.
I'm with you SB... data is showing the Rotella T6 is no bueno in a MC engine. My next oil change elements ppm may be effected by the fact I'm pulling the clutch plates and de-glazing them prior to TMAC... will be interesting to see.
Here's my recent analysis from Blackstone. The oil type and grade is not accurate on the form. I thought I had over 5k miles on the oil but I was mistaken; I had changed it more recently with a 50/50 blend of Rotella T6 5w40 + Mobil1 15w50... This oil had zero highway miles with all spirited country back roads riding and Ozark mountain runs.
I'm putting M1 5w30 in for TMAC... this will be a 3K mile road trip for me with 7 days of spirited riding in the middle. I will send that oil in for comparison.
Man you guys really are in way over your heads and don't even know it is the sad part, that's way high metal count for a vfr , that's what BLS would look like at the same mileage, probably much worse, by his counts under 800 miles..
you guys and your 5w30 car oil need so see what a real set up is and how low metal count can be. Its not total destruction with your count, but your shedding more metal than needed.
if you can shed that much metal with a vfr, a normal bike that tends to shed a lot of metal would be crazy high.
I just ran a uoa on a ktm high strung race motor with 20w50, only 2000 miles on the motor, and its metals looked better than BLS's, VFR . which is pathetic in comparison. The vfr should look closer to a gold wing metal count. Just shows you guys need help.
Have you done any BLS reports on your oil in the VFR ?
I guess I could better understand the BLS reports if your BLS reports show a better results .
For me and from what I have read no more Rotella and 1500-2000 miles oil changes ARE GOOD.
Rotella is okay for up to 1500 miles, its normally lost a full grade by 1100 miles. I used it as breakin oil on the vfr in the first 5 or 6,000 miles. and that was at 1100 mile intervals. poor choice if you want to run a decent oci , like 2500/3000 miles.
This is 2 quarts redline 10w30 and 1 quart 20w50 redline, to ensure the 30 weight stays in grade, and did so very well. 2500 mile through fall and winter months . no commute riding. I don't run 30 weights as a rule, but I was trying to get close to a 40 weight. cause it wasn't available. But it did better than my expectations. Even the flash held up.
Far far less metal count than anything posted here, and this is mostly full tilt boogie from corner to corner, from full throttle post 125 mph, to 100 mph sweepers to everything in between.
This is 2 quarts redline 10w30 and 1 quart 20w50 redline, to ensure the 30 weight stays in grade, and did so very well. 2500 mile through fall and winter months . no commute riding. I don't run 30 weights as a rule, but I was trying to get close to a 40 weight. cause it wasn't available. But it did better than my expectations. Even the flash held up.
Far far less metal count than anything posted here, and this is mostly full tilt boogie from corner to corner, from full throttle post 125 mph, to 100 mph sweepers to everything in between.
For that report yes, but typically 2500 to 3000 miles with diesil or mc oil in 40 to 50 weight, I did run Mobil 1 vtwin 4000 miles one time, But 4000 mile is the longest Ive ever gone on an oil change.
Yeah it held solidly in the 30 weight range, it probably started in the 40 weight rang with the 20w50 support. Done over I'd probably do two 20w50 and one 10w30. and went longer on oci.
I could have went to 3,000 on that run, like I said it beat expectations, but that was just a test and a pricey one.
Red Line 20W50 Motorcycle Oil -Designed for the latest Big-Twin motorcycle engines that specify 20W50 motor oil, including including Evolution, Twin Cam, and aftermarket engines of similar design -Superior film strength through the use of ester base stocks for protection and ring seal -Extended drain intervals over other brands due to higher quality basestocks and excellent... » Read More
Got my Blackstone report back. Using T6 and won't be using it much longer. Switching to Amsoil soon. I've always run it in the R1 and the report on it (I only changed the oil once last year in it) was fantastic. On the VFR with T6, not so much. I'll try to remember to post them later.
Honda switched near everything to 10w30, its the PC ecology oil direction, doesn't mean that's the best for your bike, just means you'll still get a usable life.
My T6 report wasn't bad at all at 5-5.5k miles. Just sent in a 3600 mile sample today.
Is your report posted on this thread or elsewhere? I just did a quick look through and didn't see it. Two other T6 reports showed higher than average iron and aluminum
I just tried posting, but it's giving me trouble at the moment...
They said iron and aluminum were a little high (Al at 19, Fe at 18), but was a higher mileage sample than before. 5-5.5k miles. Copper was really notable, but I found out much later that installing a brass valve to the oil drain (Fumoto) can cause high copper when new. That was the first sample after installing a Fumoto quick drain valve.
I didn't stick to one brand after, so no consistency. This will be the first sample with the same type as an earlier sample. No change, just drew from filler today after a good ride.
I just tried posting, but it's giving me trouble at the moment...
They said iron and aluminum were a little high (Al at 19, Fe at 18), but was a higher mileage sample than before. 5-5.5k miles. Copper was really notable, but I found out much later that installing a brass valve to the oil drain (Fumoto) can cause high copper when new. That was the first sample after installing a Fumoto quick drain valve.
I didn't stick to one brand after, so no consistency. This will be the first sample with the same type as an earlier sample. No change, just drew from filler today after a good ride.
Sweet Thanks Kev .
Thinking about adding a quart of RedLine 15W-50 synthetic and test at 3000 miles.
I just tried posting, but it's giving me trouble at the moment...
They said iron and aluminum were a little high (Al at 19, Fe at 18), but was a higher mileage sample than before. 5-5.5k miles. Copper was really notable, but I found out much later that installing a brass valve to the oil drain (Fumoto) can cause high copper when new. That was the first sample after installing a Fumoto quick drain valve.
I didn't stick to one brand after, so no consistency. This will be the first sample with the same type as an earlier sample. No change, just drew from filler today after a good ride.
Sweet Thanks Kev .
Thinking about adding a quart of RedLine 15W-50 synthetic and test at 3000 miles.
Be careful some of the redline or is MB rated , meaning not as strong of clutch grip(slippage). Make sure the redline used is a the MA type.
years ago Redline used to have a 15w50 that was MB rated, not sure nowadays, but definitely don't use their car oils in a bike . Motorcycle MA rated only
I wonder if the different engine generations inherently have different UOA profiles and averages?
E.g. the 6th gens timing chains vs the 5th gens timing gears, do they have an impact with more oil shear from the gears... or if the chains shed more/less metals?
I saw a bike not long ago, cant remember the brand, and it had a magnet to collect debri coming off cam chain (it was fairly good amount of metallic debri attached to that magnet.
At the same time Ive seen chain drive bikes with a lot of cam sprocket wear, and some with none. The ones that showed significant wear, were not oem cams sprockets, but aftermarket cam sprockets.
I would think a helical cam gear set up, would generated less metal over a tensioned chain set up, atleast there are less moving parts.
Last mid change report (above) suggested 3000 more miles. I ran it pretty hard at TMac, and it was shifting a bit rough, so I drained it after another 2700.
Last mid change report (above) suggested 3000 more miles. I ran it pretty hard at TMac, and it was shifting a bit rough, so I drained it after another 2700.
Be interesting to see your results... both Gig and I ran 5w30 (Motul & M1 respectively) pretty hard at TMAC and we will be sending ours in at 3000 for testing... I've got a few hundred more miles to go then will submit to Blackstone
This part 2 of my last oil change. Previous report was mid cycle sample, then it was on to TMac. I ran it pretty hard for that week with lots of high revving antics! :beer:
They commented on the copper, but as I mentioned in a previous post, the big spike was from installation of the brass quick drain (Fumoto). It's still a bit high compared to "universal averages", but seems in line with my bike's history.
Here is my recent one with Shell Rotella T (non-synthetic) 15W-40. I normally change oil every 5k miles (60k, 65k, 70k, etc) so it is easy to remember and track.
Interesting for all you guys that change your oil so early in its cycle.
They are all rated for 15,000 - 20,000 kilometre cycles for a reason - you don't need to change your oil so often and there is no benefit to doing so.
Thanks for sharing this data.
wera803
Here is my recent one with Shell Rotella T (non-synthetic) 15W-40. I normally change oil every 5k miles (60k, 65k, 70k, etc) so it is easy to remember and track. [image: e0291b9f849745a77d93057f032db0df.jpg]