Oil Filter

I just picked up a gallon of Mobil 1 15-50 oil at Walmart. I also got a Fram oil filter for the VFR 800 while there. When I pulled of my OEM Honda oil filter and made the side by side comparison I found the Fram to be somewhat falling short. I don't have any concrete evidence as to if it will not perform as well as the OEM filter. The difference in cost is not the issue, if your already paying $6 per quart for the oil, what's the $5 more for the Honda filter? What is the opinion concerning the Fram or any other non-OEM filters?

The only person I would want to use a Fram filter is my ex-wife. They are pretty much junk. Here is one of many links that will tell you about Fram filters. Do not put that junk on your bike. :blink:

It is very difficult to determine what is truly best for the bike. You can get about as many, but not quite as many opinions about filters, as you can about oil.

There are three basic components of the oil filter:

1. Filter medium - new synthetic materials ostensibly filters better; however, it's very confusing to try to determine how all that really relates to what's going on inside the engine, and whether the synthetic material really improves things. Yeah, it may filter out finer particles, but the particle sizes that it filters out may not be causing any problems, and secondly, finer filter medium likely increases pressure drop across the medium. Some filters have a lot more filter medium than others, too, but this only comes into play if you run so long that you border on clogging the filter.

2. Bypass valve - this is like a trap door that let's UNFILTERED oil go around the filter medium when the pressure across the filter medium exceeds the bypass valve pressure setting. Honda does not disclose bypass valve settings, and non-OEM filters are all over the map on settings. My guess (and it's purely a guess) is that a few pounds one way or the other on bypass valve setting, doesn't really matter. But a bypass valve setting that is too low for the application (say a vehicle that happens to run very high oil pressure), could open and start circulating unfiltered oil under some circumstances.

3. Anti-drainback valve - keeps the oil from draining out of the filter back into the crankcase when the filter is mounted on it's side or upside down. You need this in a filter for the VFR, because the VFR filter is mounted on its side. Some filters have these things, and some don't. I don't know whether the FRAM filter his this valve, or not.

There are other differences among filters, including burst pressure (who cares, I've never seen one leak, much less burst), teflon impregnated seal for easy removal (nice, but not necessary), O-ring seal (my favorite, and the OEM filter has one, compared to the FRAM filter that has a flat gasket), size/capacity (OK, but a bigger filter gets in the way of stuff), a nut on the end for easy removal (like K&N; nice, but a filter wrench or a pair of Channel Locks works OK, too), etc.

So, can you find non-OEM filters that work as well or better than the OEM filter? Maybe, and maybe not. After doing considerable reading on this subject, I've come to the conclusion that you're pretty safe using the filter that the manufacturer recommends for the vehicle. I think about it this way........the manufacturer certainly would not want early engine failure due to an inferior filter. So they recommend a filter that is perfectly adequate for the job. I use Honda OEM filters on the VFR.......and I use an AC Delco filter on the Corvette, a Porshce filter on the wife's Boxster, etc., etc.

The Lurkin Merkin

[QUOTE]Do not put that junk on your bike.

Thanks for getting back so quickly, your link was exactly :thumbsup: what I was looking for. As I stated the Fram just did not look to be a quality piece, the can had the feel of a beer can :beer: and there was only 3 or so threads in the screw on. Again thanks and it is not going on my bike, if anybody wants it just pay the shipping.

I use the Honda filter. Here is my logic...five oil changes a year, the filters cost me around $50 using OEM filters. A non OEM would cost around $25...that's a huge $25 a year savings. What's the point? $25 is $.07 a day, I'll chew one less piece of Bazooka Joe a day and stick with a Honda filter. :thumbsup:

Well, I've read some of the article on how bad the Fram filter is...

In any case, all I use in my VFR is Fram filters, and Motomaster 10W-40 cheapo oil. I change my oil and fillter every 6,000km.. I now have 112,000 km on my VFR and it runs great! use no oil!.
So I am very happy with both oil and filter choice.

Plastics
95 VFR750F (red)

Kawasaki Genuine Parts #16097-1072 is the same filter as the Honda one. Both made by Toyo Roki and cross reference with each other. There are no nearby Honda dealers but there is a Kawi dealer in town so I can get a OEM filter.

Take the FRAM back to Wal-Mart and exchange it for the Wal-Mart brand equivalent.
One of these threads dissected all the different brands and the construction and materials used in the WM were better than FRAM and as good as or better than OEM.
ST6607 is the PN for my 5th Gen. The VTEcs might be different.

Could have been here, or ST.N or the old VFR World site. Can't remember. What hapened to the links to these other VFR related sites?

According to the list as far as recommended filters, the Bosch, Mobil 1 and the Walmart Supertech were listed. Are these filters said to be superior to the Honda filter or a alternative? '04, per your rep that precedes you I thought you would take me up on my offer of a free filter.

Mobil M1-108's for me, I trust Mobil to make good oils and put their name on a good filter only plus they are grey and matched the lower fairings on the CBR, gotta be color coordinated ya know ! I know, squiddy but I think everyone worries a bit too much about filters and oil.
Use good quality name brand stuff and change it often ! It keeps me employed so I can buy more crap for my bikes. Fram is a good company and makes filters for many OEM's like Mack. They don't screw around. This story about the bad Frams is like the story on Syn oils you can't break-in your engines on. Just a BS story. Where's the evidence ?
Some guy had an engine bearing failure when using a Fram filter and blamed the filter. Filters don't make engines fail. It was that or maybe it was the damn syn oil he was using !?! When in doubt, blame the oil.

My stock is plummiting, damn that pennzoil!! My foot hurts must be the quaker state in my car?

Remind me, what is stock. There were 2 different lengths, the longer one will not fit, stock is tight now, up against coolant hose.

Yep, this is why I use the M1-108, 2.5", vs the 110 @ 3.25 ", too long.

[quote=Lurkinmerkin,Mar 15 2005, 02:34 AM]
It is very difficult to determine what is truly best for the bike. You can get about as many, but not quite as many opinions about filters, as you can about oil.

There are three basic components of the oil filter:

1. Filter medium - new synthetic materials ostensibly filters better; however, it's very confusing to try to determine how all that really relates to what's going on inside the engine, and whether the synthetic material really improves things. Yeah, it may filter out finer particles, but the particle sizes that it filters out may not be causing any problems, and secondly, finer filter medium likely increases pressure drop across the medium. Some filters have a lot more filter medium than others, too, but this only comes into play if you run so long that you border on clogging the filter.

2. Bypass valve - this is like a trap door that let's UNFILTERED oil go around the filter medium when the pressure across the filter medium exceeds the bypass valve pressure setting. Honda does not disclose bypass valve settings, and non-OEM filters are all over the map on settings. My guess (and it's purely a guess) is that a few pounds one way or the other on bypass valve setting, doesn't really matter. But a bypass valve setting that is too low for the application (say a vehicle that happens to run very high oil pressure), could open and start circulating unfiltered oil under some circumstances.

3. Anti-drainback valve - keeps the oil from draining out of the filter back into the crankcase when the filter is mounted on it's side or upside down. You need this in a filter for the VFR, because the VFR filter is mounted on its side. Some filters have these things, and some don't. I don't know whether the FRAM filter his this valve, or not.

There are other differences among filters, including burst pressure (who cares, I've never seen one leak, much less burst), teflon impregnated seal for easy removal (nice, but not necessary), O-ring seal (my favorite, and the OEM filter has one, compared to the FRAM filter that has a flat gasket), size/capacity (OK, but a bigger filter gets in the way of stuff), a nut on the end for easy removal (like K&N; nice, but a filter wrench or a pair of Channel Locks works OK, too), etc.

So, can you find non-OEM filters that work as well or better than the OEM filter? Maybe, and maybe not. After doing considerable reading on this subject, I've come to the conclusion that you're pretty safe using the filter that the manufacturer recommends for the vehicle. I think about it this way........the manufacturer certainly would not want early engine failure due to an inferior filter. So they recommend a filter that is perfectly adequate for the job. I use Honda OEM filters on the VFR.......and I use an AC Delco filter on the Corvette, a Porshce filter on the wife's Boxster, etc., etc.

The Lurkin Merkin


/quote]

LM, it's getting very hard to believe you are "just" a chemist ! Tell me who you really are Bro !!!!

I have to agree with ScootR-Fram has caught a lot of flak over the years, yet there are millions of their filters in use everyday without issue. I've been using the Fram TG6607 filter for a while now without any problems. I have found that the Purolator Pure One filter for the VTEC is a bit cheaper though, so I'll give it a go at the next oil change. I am surprised that the K&N is not recommended because HiFlo makes the filter, yet another website says that HiFlo is fine. Bottom line-find something that works and is easy to get (read: available locally) and run with it.

ME MYSELF I USE THE SCOTTS ALUMINUM OIL FILTER ITS BETTER REBUILDABLE AND FILTERS AT A MUCH FINER RATE THAN A PAPER ONE IT ALSO LETS OIL FLOW MORE FREELY DURING COLD START-UPS SO THE BYPASS VALVE DOESNT OPEN AND LET UN-FILTERED OIL BACK THROUGH YOUR ENGINE THEY ARE PRICEY BUT VERY WELL WORTH IT IN THE LONG RUN THESE BIKE ARE VERY EXPENSIVE AND I WILL ONLY PUT THE BEST THAT I CAN FIND IN MINE ,I USE PAPER TO WRITE ON I DONT WANT IT FILTERING OIL IN MY BIKE SORRY I,M JUST BIASED BECAUSE ITS TRUE

I would use caution when using a car oil filter on a bike. The bypass valve is designed to open above a certain pressure and I think most bikes run higher oil pressures than cars. Moto oil filters are specifically designed to be used on bikes not nessessarily for better filtration but for a higher pressure bypass valve. Personally I wouldn't do it. IMHO.

this is the shorter version WalMart SuperTech ST6607

04asphalt, Mar 15 2005, 04:28 PMthen the WalMart SuperTech ST7317 won't fit :(
anyone know the part# of the shorter version?

nevermind, I found out because the shorter version has much less filter material inside it's not recommended :(

NYMBYSS, Mar 15 2005, 08:08 PMME MYSELF I USE THE SCOTTS ALUMINUM OIL FILTER ITS BETTER REBUILDABLE AND FILTERS AT A MUCH FINER RATE THAN A PAPER ONE IT ALSO LETS OIL FLOW MORE FREELY DURING COLD START-UPS SO THE BYPASS VALVE DOESNT OPEN AND LET UN-FILTERED OIL BACK THROUGH YOUR ENGINE THEY ARE PRICEY BUT VERY WELL WORTH IT IN THE LONG RUN THESE BIKE ARE VERY EXPENSIVE AND I WILL ONLY PUT THE BEST THAT I CAN FIND IN MINE ,I USE PAPER TO WRITE ON I DONT WANT IT FILTERING OIL IN MY BIKE SORRY I,M JUST BIASED BECAUSE ITS TRUE

Second this, get a Scotts filter and you can take to other bikes when you(lord forbid) get rid of your VFR. Highly recommended.

04asphalt, Mar 15 2005, 11:28 PMthen the WalMart SuperTech ST7317 won't fit :(
anyone know the part# of the shorter version?

I use the Bosch 3323, which is listed in the link as a 3.25" filter, and it fits the VTEC. :blink: I think the 3.25" filters are fine (if the 3323 is in fact 3.25"). Its close initially to get the filter past the pipes, but I had no problem.

Paper filtration media from Honda isn't incredibly different from paper filtration media from FRAM or anyone else. I've had Honda vehicles which use the same filter as the VFR. I have a Nissan vehicle which uses the same filter as the VFR. They also have the same light bulb specifications. If we didn't have these fancy iridium spark plugs, you could probably find the same spark plug in another car (perhaps they are).

It comes down to this: filters are really low tech, off the shelf pieces that don't require a whole lot of engineering. Honda used a standardized filter for the same reason that they use standardized light bulbs.

How many people do you know who have had a filter fail? How many have had a vehicle fail because the filter failed? Its probably the same number of people you know who had Brand X's synthetic oil "fail." ;) I'm sure there's someone out there, but judging by the money that goes into manufacturing even more expensive OEM filters, they're the wild exception rather than the rule. We change filters far too often to begin with for this to make a difference.

Much like which synthetic oil is best by 1.3%, its not worth over-analyzing.

One more thing to consider...cars and the VFR have similar oil discharge pressures, and use identical filtration media. Intuitively, I'm going to take a wild guess and say that the total forced lubrication volume in my Sentra is greater than that in my VFR. Okay its not that wild, bigger bearings require more lubrication. If the filter can provide enough volume flow for an engine twice as big, its most likely good enough for the VFR.

LM, it's getting very hard to believe you are "just" a chemist ! Tell me who you really are Bro !!!!

ScootR, I got a kick out of this..you know perfectly well who I am from all the personal e-mails we have exchanged.

Keep on flattering me. One of these days, I'm going to take you up on the offer to hire me (assuming your company will pay the moving expenses, which I can assure you, are formidable)...I know a bunch of good Aggie jokes I'm sure you'll enjoy!!

The Lurkin Merkin

Fixer,

Most likely, you're right about oil filters, and I would agree with you that filters are low tech items. But I would add a couple of things to consider:

1. Drawing the analogy between filters and oil is not valid in my opinion. The oil is subjected to all kinds of degradation due to oxidation, contamination, chemical reactions, heat history, shear stress, fuel and water dilution, etc., etc. The filter is not degraded by any of these phenomena.

2. You know as well as anyone that purchase specifications from the OEM are different than aftermarket specs. Generally speaking, OEM part specifications are designed for quality and reliability. There is little or no assurance whatsoever, that aftermarket parts are as good as the OEM part. To use your light bulb analogy, I know people who have driven Hondas and Acuras for 10 years before the first bulb burns out. Then, they get an "equivalent" aftermarket bulb and go through two or three of them in a few months.....until they finally get a "good one" that lasts a while. Same specs as the OEM part?? I doubt it.

3. Filters are mass produced by a relatively small number of companies, and each company makes a wide variety of products. I'm confident that any of the manufacturers make some very good filters to fairly tight specs, and some crappy filters to sell to the low end of the market. Fram, for example, makes some excellent filters that are used by the trucking industry and racing industry, but I believe Fram also makes some of the worst filters at the low end of the scale. I think you can physically see the inferior quality in stamped parts with pierced and extruded thread bodies; cut vs. rolled threads (look at them under a magnifying glass sometime); flat gaskets (rather than o-rings) of who-knows-what kind of rubber material; stamped rather than coiled springs on the bypass valve, etc. Everything about the aftermarket Fram filters simply looks cheap to me, compared to other filters. Maybe they are low tech and "good enough," but I won't go there.

4. Quality control varies all over the map for consumer items. I seriously doubt that the $1.99 filter at K-mart or Walmart gets the same level of inspection and acceptance testing as the high end filters.

Again, you're probably right about filters, and the vast majority of us would never have a problem using the cheapest filter out there. The same cannot be said for oil, where SA oils are still available on the market, and ignorant consumers are still buying this stuff for their vehicles....with the attitude that "oil is oil." Modern engines will definitely fail if these oils are used. I simply won't take the chance on using the cheapest oil or filter.

I am a firm believer in ScootR's recommendations: use products from reputable companies, and change the oil and filter regularly. Personally, I think there is some added measure of safety in using products from reputable companies. Is it overkill? Probably, but I sleep very well at night knowing that I haven't taken significant risks about the quality of materials.

The Lurkin Merkin

04asphalt, Mar 16 2005, 04:07 AMthat's great news :thumbsup:
I got a 3300 to return :idea3:

I can't remember, the 3.25 is too tight and if it is up against an exhaust pipe I would not use it, will scorch your oil, not good. I'll look next time I change mine but as far as media area goes this is a huge filter regardless and is as stated here used on much larger displacement car engines. There's what, 3.5 qts of oil in the bike and you change it 3-4000 miles, not much crap there. These aren't diesels.
If your filter plugs under these conditions it don't matter as there is something really wrong with your engine and no filter or oil will fix it.


So Lurky, explain to me then how you know about metrology and seem to know all the exact things my job entails ??? And as far as being car poor, must be tough Bro, try being animal poor, 3 horses, 2 dogs, 12 and counting cats, etc...I'll trade with you anytime as already offered. I mean ChmE is just balancing a bunch of equations right ? How hard can the be :salesman

Bosch 3300 & Mobil 108 is 2.5, Bosch 3323 is longer but not as long as the Mobil 110 :wacko:

[quote]
1. Drawing the analogy between filters and oil is not valid in my opinion. The oil is subjected to all kinds of degradation due to oxidation, contamination, chemical reactions, heat history, shear stress, fuel and water dilution, etc., etc. The filter is not degraded by any of these phenomena.[/quote]
Well, I think you missed the purpose of that statement here.

Both are consumable items changed out for preventative maintenance. The point is that the actual odds of even the cheapest version of either available on the market failing in the time that most people replace them is extremely slim. Conventional oils meet the required specifications for these bikes just fine, as called for by the OEM, and you probably will never hear about one "failing" because of it...but look at what we talk about here and elsewhere. People nitpick over oils all the time, and they really don't have to - no need to export the same issue in reverse over to filters.

I could have also mentioned sweating the differences between spark plugs, when really there isn't that much difference for the price. (Insert Bosch fanatic response here!)

[quote]2. You know as well as anyone that purchase specifications from the OEM are different than aftermarket specs. Generally speaking, OEM part specifications are designed for quality and reliability.[/quote]
So aftermarket components are manufactured for poor quality and poor reliability? :goofy:

I can't say that OEM specs are somehow naturally better, particularly since I've seen what they don't buy or make sometimes. They like to keep prices down both for themselves as well as us.

Furthermore, both OEM and aftermarket part specifications are not strictly designed for quality and reliability. They're also designed for cost benefit, and you know this too. There's a lot of things automobile and motorcycle manufacturers could do to make vehicles "more" reliable...but if it only makes the difference between spark plugs that last 300,000 miles vice 350,000...why spend the extra money? And of course they don't, and sometimes they don't even care on things that could make a noticeable difference, because the price delta is too great. There's more expensive manufacturing processes for everything on this bike that would make it subjectively or objectively better in some way...but they can't do everything. There is a break even point where the consumers won't buy enough of them anymore...or else VTEC's would be coming with Ohlins in the back from the factory.

Some aftermarket components will be better, and some will be worse. I'm sure we could manufacture filters machined out of unobtainium and say they'll absolutely last XXXX miles longer, but why? Wouldn't the consumer be better served by far cheaper paper filters?

[quote]There is little or no assurance whatsoever, that aftermarket parts are as good as the OEM part.[/quote]

There's also little or no assurance whatsoever that your OEM part is as good as the aftermarket part other than liability and free market forces, and its the same that applies to FRAM. There's no difference. FRAM doesn't want to be known as the next Bridgestone anymore than Honda does.

[quote]To use your light bulb analogy, I know people who have driven Hondas and Acuras for 10 years before the first bulb burns out. Then, they get an "equivalent" aftermarket bulb and go through two or three of them in a few months.....until they finally get a "good one" that lasts a while.[/quote]

And I've also had the reverse experience with OEM versus aftermarket bulbs. This is a highly subjective reference and example on many levels. If you sell cheap bulbs that last maybe half as long for a quarter of the price...which is the better engineered solution? Which would the consumer prefer? I guarantee that OEM's don't always put "the absolute best" light bulbs on their cars or their bikes, anymore than they put "the absolute best" spark plugs in the engine.

Anyway, there's lots of light manufacturers out there who make excellent light bulbs, and they tend to be the same source as OEM.

[quote]Same specs as the OEM part?? I doubt it.[/quote]

I'd be more than willing to bet that they actually are. Most of these kinds of consumable items are manufactured to open specifications (like H4, etc.) for a reason. Honda doesn't specify exactly how these things will be manufactured or the materials down to a T (auto manufacturers don't tend to suffer from the same psychosis that Lockheed Martin has). They leave that to the manufacturer. And indeed, if there's already a light bulb spec, why are you going to spend thousands of dollars developing a new one on top of one? That's how bad companies (like #$%@ defense contractors) operate, and its something we're trending away from when we can. Even in the Navy, from engines to computers to missiles, open architecture is in, closed architecture is out!

Big manufacturers specify general criteria, including failure rates, and the aftermarket is no different. Its not an example of bad engineering either...how come BMW uses more proprietary standards on items like their electrical distribution system, and has lower reliability (although the Kool Aid drinking riders will pretend shaft drives and BMW FI have no problems)? Looks pretty, but doesn't last, and the higher cost of development and manufacture is passed on to the consumer. Where's the quality and benefit to the consumer in that?

[quote]3. Filters are mass produced by a relatively small number of companies, and each company makes a wide variety of products. I'm confident that any of the manufacturers make some very good filters to fairly tight specs, and some crappy filters to sell to the low end of the market.[/quote]

Perhaps, but even then...so? I'm not convinced that I need a high end oil filter anymore than I need to spend twice as much for spark plugs that give me 0.05% more power for the short time before they're as carbon covered as the old ones ;)

We're talking about a cheap metal canister with a paper filtration media in it. None of them are manufactured to specs that are that awe-inspiring.

[quote]I think you can physically see the inferior quality in stamped parts with pierced and extruded thread bodies;[/quote]

Yeah, but so?

[quote]cut vs. rolled threads (look at them under a magnifying glass sometime);[/quote]

So?

[quote]flat gaskets (rather than o-rings) of who-knows-what kind of rubber material;[/quote]
So?

You can go round and round all day about contact pressure and surface area and which seals better in subjective levels and which lasts longer, but really, they both work just fine. And it if works, then it works. I've never had a single FRAM filter leak at the seal, and I don't overtighten them at all. I'm sure someone's somewhere has leaked, but I just haven't heard about it.

[quote]stamped rather than coiled springs on the bypass valve,[/quote]
So? :P

[quote]4. Quality control varies all over the map for consumer items. I seriously doubt that the $1.99 filter at K-mart or Walmart gets the same level of inspection and acceptance testing as the high end filters.[/quote]
I'm not sure that they don't get as much inspection or quality assurance as the other brands, really. They're not that complex.

[quote]Again, you're probably right about filters, and the vast majority of us would never have a problem using the cheapest filter out there. The same cannot be said for oil, where SA oils are still available on the market, and ignorant consumers are still buying this stuff for their vehicles....with the attitude that "oil is oil."[/quote]

Well, that's mixing buying off-spec materials with in-spec but cheaper materials. I'd be willing to bet that if I were to run my bike with cheaper conventional oil specified by the manufacturer rather than synthetic, and change at OEM intervals, the long term difference wouldn't be that much.

FWIW, we run very cheap conventional oils in Navy engines (other than gas turbines) and they work out just fine.

[quote]I am a firm believer in ScootR's recommendations: use products from reputable companies, and change the oil and filter regularly. Personally, I think there is some added measure of safety in using products from reputable companies.[/quote]

Well, we can all agree on that. But FRAM is perfectly reputable, its not like they're setting up a tent just this side of the border under a sign that says "Filters Del Notre" or something. Its just that people want a little more unobtainium in their oil filters perhaps for totally subjective reasons. Its kind of like cell phone antennas. They're not hooked up to anything, its just that people like having them there too much for the companies to sell them without them.

[quote]Is it overkill? Probably, but I sleep very well at night knowing that I haven't taken significant risks about the quality of materials.[/quote]

To each their own. I'd rather have my $5 back...

Fixer,

First, let me state that I fully understand and appreciate your response. It was thoughtful, well written, and it clearly presented your point of view. And believe it or not, I agree with a lot of what you've said. Undoubtedly, many of the products we discuss are really good enough, and the vast majority of people would never have a problem using them.

If you and I searched long enough, we could probably find some areas where you would agree that "good enough" is not adequate for your tastes....you'd want the "best." When it comes to safety related items like tires, brakes, and shocks for example, I think you would look for and consider using the "better" or "best", rather than what's just "good enough." I'm merely arguing that oil and filters fall into the same category of considering what's best.

I guess in the end, I simply look for the best in things, not what's just good enough. As you say, "To each their own."

The Lurkin Merkin

PS: I'm an old, married guy, so trust me on this: If you have a wife or girlfriend, I can assure you that when it comes to flowers, she has a different idea than you about what's "good enough!"

PS: I'm an old, married guy, so trust me on this: If you have a wife or girlfriend, I can assure you that when it comes to flowers, she has a different idea than you about what's "good enough!"

Lmao, me too, 2nd wife here, slow learner. :beer: