Countersteering !

Just wondering what percentage of members know what countersteering is!

Just had the MSF training and they teach this for tight turning/maneuvering.

Kevin: Glad you brought that up. I found out about it only two weeks before the TexasMac meet and put it to good use there. I imaging most people never have heard about it. When you tell other riders about it they don't believe you anywy, until they try it.

Have you used it for years?

I know it and am practing it at safe speeds. Once I get better........ wheel.gif

Here is a link to Wikipedia for Wikipedia Countersteering article. It has links to several other sites, some of those are brilliant. (I have the Tony Foale book & rate it very highly).

baileyrock, Jun 15 2006, 08:10 AMJust wondering what percentage of members know what counterstearing is!

+1.gif

Per my Rothlesburger response to your post biggrin.gif

Learned at MSF Beginner course.

I learned something more in the Lee Parks class I took last fall - he teaches that you should use only the inside arm to initiate, control and exit a turn. Using one arm allows much quicker turn-in where as using both arms generally ends up in a "tug-o-war" during the turn. I practice this every day - it's not easy (especially when you are just commuting and being lazy). It's also difficult when turning left since your right hand remains on the throttle. Parks' book, Total Control, is very good.

Hobie1dog, Jun 15 2006, 09:16 AMKevin:  Glad you brought that up.  I found out about it only two weeks before the TexasMac meet and put it to good use there.  I imaging most people never have heard about it.  When you tell other riders about it they don't believe you anywy, until they try it.

Have you used it for years?

I have used it for years and go back and fourth between hanging off, C/S and blending them.
IMO counterstearing is the simplest and easiest to control a motorcycle, especially in twisties for beginners. At anything up to moderate(or more) speeds it's the easiest way to get a bike to turn with the least amount of effort.

Had it ohh so many years ago at my first MSF safety course. It can be counter-intuative but, I agree it is the best way to control a motorcycle. Speaking of MSF, how many have had refresher courses? I for one have not but, as soon as I put the puzzle that I call my VFR back together I do plan on taking the MSF Experienced Rider Course. I think it will be beneficial to have an objective party evaluate my skills and point out bad habits that I may have developed for various reasons...

http://www.msf-usa.org/index_new.cfm?pagen...%20RiderCourses

I will admit...I have no idea what countersteering means. Only my assumptions from the meaning. I am still learning new things day in and out. Alot of ppl thought I was going to quit riding, and still ask me when they find out if I am going to sell the bike now...................................................HELL NO. I enjoy this, and understand safety and techinique and a good head make a world of difference.

So could please someone give me a good explaination of the counterstear technique? I searched on google..and fumbled thru the forum here, but no real luck. Thanks.



THANKS FOR THE LINK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

baileyrock, Jun 15 2006, 08:10 AMJust wondering what percentage of members know what counterstearing is!

I have no idea. I just go balls-out in flip-flops, shorts, and wife-beater and hope there are no curves ahead.

If my bikini-clad girlfriend on the back wants to hang off, that's her own damn business. Passenger safety is best left to the passenger.

Signed,
Floridian 'Busa Rider

goofy.gif

Actually you use countersteering every single time you turn. Especially at higher speeds. If not then you will go straight off into the weeds. At parking lot speeds you may be able to get away without countersteering but that's about it.

Getting those big 17 inch gyroscopes to change direction takes some nifty physics to accomplish.

g_unit, Jun 15 2006, 09:48 AMI will admit...I have no idea what countersteering means.  Only my assumptions from the meaning.  I am still learning new things day in and out.  Alot of ppl thought I was going to quit riding, and still ask me when they find out if I am going to sell the bike now...................................................HELL NO.  I enjoy this, and understand safety and techinique and a good head make a world of difference.

So could please someone give me a good explaination of the counterstear technique?  I searched on google..and fumbled thru the forum here, but no real luck.  Thanks.

There's a link in post 5 here! fing02.gif

g_unit, Jun 15 2006, 08:48 AMI will admit...I have no idea what countersteering means.  Only my assumptions from the meaning.  I am still learning new things day in and out.  Alot of ppl thought I was going to quit riding, and still ask me when they find out if I am going to sell the bike now...................................................HELL NO.  I enjoy this, and understand safety and techinique and a good head make a world of difference.

So could please someone give me a good explaination of the counterstear technique?  I searched on google..and fumbled thru the forum here, but no real luck.  Thanks.

Take the MSF course down the road from you at Statesville community college! or in Charlotte at CPCC! You'll develop better habits early.

Link reposted: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

EDIT: I took it at Statesville. Smaller crowds, more openings in the class. You'll be surprised at what you learn there. I had a great instructor, Gary [something]; not sure if he still teaches (that was 5 years ago).

From http://nm.msf-usa.org/msf/ridercourses.aspx?state=NC:
MITCHELL COMMUNITY COLLEGE View STATESVILLE 28677 IREDELL (704) 878-4266

baileyrock, Jun 15 2006, 07:41 AMI have used it for years and go back and fourth between hanging off, C/S and blending them.
IMO counterstearing is the simplest and easiest to control a motorcycle, especially in twisties for beginners.

Definitely....can you imagine trying to learn how to ride a bike having to try and move your body around(hang off), weight the inside peg, move your torso to the inside, outside knee pressure on the tank etc. blink.gif

Countersteering is certainly the single(having to do only one thing) most effective way to get a bike to change direction.......that's why it is by far the best way to learn when starting because you're only having to learn one technique as opposed to a number of different techniques.

Having said that, I find that I countersteer very little anymore using all the other above listed techniques. laugh.gif


Different riding schools have varied approaches to the use of CS vs Body etc.

You can also find all these approaches in many of the sport riding books on the market.
The books have all been mentioned in past threads but in case some of you hadn't seen them :"Sport Riding Techniques" by Nick Ienatsch(Freddie Spencer School lead instructor), "The Pridmore Way" by Reg Pridmore(Class Schools), Keith Code's books "Twist of The Wrist 1&2" etc.


Definitely Freddie Spencer and to a slightly lesser degree, Reg Pridmore's schools are from the body steering end of the spectrum while Keith Code is on the countersteering side of things.


Uhhhhhh, did I just kind of hijack this thread.......................oooops, sorry tongue.gif

Never rode a motorcycle until I took the MSF course before I got my first bike. They explained it quite nicely, and I haven't had to think about it while riding ever since. Just the way you do it.
While riding in the Deals Gap, Cherohala region, I was amazed to hear Mr. BaileyRock explaining the whole countersteering process to another rider in our group. The guy picked up the idea pretty quick, and improved his riding quite a bit. Gave him more confidence, and he had a great time. I just couldn't believe that anyone could ride without understanding that basic principle. Perhaps not knowing the name, but still doing it.
Happened again this past weekend with the folks I was riding with. A rider went to two of the group seperately to explain it. He even suggested to use a bicycle to get used to the sensation.
I suppose there are several different ways to make a cycle go around curves, but countersteering is certainly easiest. Hanging off, and peg weighting, etc work, but I think CS is still a big part of those techniques as well.

JoeW, Jun 15 2006, 10:50 AMActually you use countersteering every single time you turn. Especially at higher speeds. If not then you will go straight off into the weeds. At parking lot speeds you may be able to get away without countersteering but that's about it.

Getting those big 17 inch gyroscopes to change direction takes some nifty physics to accomplish.

I agree, unless you drag race your always countersteer. You may not know you are doing it but when you lean your arms will push/pull with it. To test this weld your fork straight and try leaning your way through a curve using weight alone. Don't think you'll make it.

Wow, riding a bike and not countersteering. I use it every time I am on it, and I couldn't imagine not riding using it. I know I used it this morning coming down the ramp to the freeway! (75 in a 45, I know squid.gif )

For those of you that don't use it, read the article, you will find that even making left and right turns at intersections will be at a faster pace, and pushing the bike over quickly and back up will become instictive. I also have been hanging off a lot more, and making sure I use the weight on the inside peg to help the turn in. Keith Code sure does know what he is talking about, smile.gif

Later,
Jeff

cianciar, Jun 15 2006, 12:19 PMI agree, unless you drag race your always countersteer. You may not know you are doing it but when you lean your arms will push/pull with it. To test this weld your fork straight and try leaning your way through a curve using weight alone. Don't think you'll make it.

Precisely. You cannot change the direction of a motorcycle by any significant amount by simply weighting a peg and leaning off the side while moving at highway speeds. The bike will go off the road but it won't bank over and take a corner unless you put some pressure on the bars. You will always use countersteering. When you lean to the inside you will put pressure on the bar to the inside of the corner and the bike will then initiate the turn.

Countersteering is causing the front wheel to change direction in order to get the bike to do just the same, except in the opposite direction. You can't navigate the Dragon by leaning and weighting the pegs.

If you don't countersteer every single corner of every single day of your life then you will crash. Period.

Learned from Keith Code at the Calif Superbikes School

99vfrinterceptor, Jun 15 2006, 09:13 AMJust had the MSF training and they teach this for tight turning/maneuvering.

? C/S doesn't work at slow speeds like parking lots etc. You have to achieve a min. speed (20-25mph ?) for the gyro effect to take place.
Are you thinking of counter weighting ???

baileyrock, Jun 15 2006, 01:00 PM? C/S doesn't work at slow speeds like parking lots etc. You have to achieve a min. speed (20-25mph ?) for the gyro effect to take place.
Are you thinking of counter weighting ???

The instructors called it counter steering, where you push in the direction you want to turn, but lean to the opposite direction. I know what ya'll are talking about for turning, the pushing in the opposite direction you want to go and the leaning and everything, but I'm sure our instructor said this technique was also counter steering, and was a good way to do figure 8's and turn slowly in parking lots. unsure.gif

KPerham, Jun 15 2006, 04:08 PMNever rode a motorcycle until I took the MSF course before I got my first bike.  They explained it quite nicely, and I haven't had to think about it while riding ever since.  Just the way you do it. 

+1.gif Exactly. It's what I was taught before I got my first MC. Every now and again though, I have a blink.gif moment where I am pushing to turn in, and my other arm just won't budge....does this happen to anyone else? I definitely practice every time I'm out riding around...

VFRnGTP, Jun 15 2006, 11:20 AM  Exactly.  It's what I was taught before I got my first MC.  Every now and again though, I have a  blink.gif   moment where I am pushing to turn in, and my other arm just won't budge....does this happen to anyone else?  I definitely practice every time I'm out riding around...

I think it's fairly common, locking the oppisite arm whick prevents you from turning! huh.gif Try to remember to keep a loose feel on the grips, loose arms and little weight on your hands will help.
My girlfriend has this problem sometimes still in left handers after her crash! sad.gif

First bike I had, and totalled (within a short time of getting it) I had been taught in MSF what countersteering was, but didn't believe them. Then I got my VFR, tried it out, and now I'm not only a the president, I'm also a client.

Dirtydizzogg

99vfrinterceptor, Jun 15 2006, 01:06 PMThe instructors called it counter steering, where you push in the direction you want to turn, but lean to the opposite direction.  I know what ya'll are talking about for turning, the pushing in the opposite direction you want to go and the leaning and everything, but I'm sure our instructor said this technique was also counter steering, and was a good way to do figure 8's and turn slowly in parking lots.  unsure.gif

What your instructor did was confuse you, and described counter-weighting. At slow speeds, you move your butt to the outside edge of the seat, put weight on the outside peg, and turn the bars (front wheel) in the direction you want to go. This is for parking lot maneuvers.

Countersteering relies on flywheel physics, and only works at speeds above ~20 mph (32 kph). In class this is when they had you get going fast enough for you to practice swerving, which was a series of two countersteers.

Learned it way back when I was a young pup taking the Canadian safety council course as part of collision avoidance testing / techniques. I seem to recall Cycle Canada writing a good article on it a few years later (would have been in the late 80s).

VFRnGTP, Jun 15 2006, 09:20 AM +1.gif � Exactly.� It's what I was taught before I got my first MC.� Every now and again though, I have a� blink.gif � moment where I am pushing to turn in, and my other arm just won't budge....does this happen to anyone else?� I definitely practice every time I'm out riding around...

What Bailey said, and I would add that a good way to gauge if your arms are locked or are too tense is that you should be bending at the elbows and should be able to "flap" your arms in and out. If you can't do this, then you're arms are too straight and too rigid. Very light touch on the grips is very important as the bars are an area where you need feel and finesse not muscle cool.gif


Also, as your cornering your inside elbow should be bent quite a bit

I countersteer to initiate a turn at speed, then weight the heck out of the inside peg, which greatly increases stability. I learned about weighting the inside at a track day at Barber. It increased my confidence (and corner speed) so quickly, that I was dragging pegs right away.

I promptly crapped my pants. ohmy.gif

g_unit, Jun 15 2006, 10:48 AMI will admit...I have no idea what countersteering means.  Only my assumptions from the meaning.  I am still learning new things day in and out.  Alot of ppl thought I was going to quit riding, and still ask me when they find out if I am going to sell the bike now...................................................HELL NO.  I enjoy this, and understand safety and techinique and a good head make a world of difference.

So could please someone give me a good explaination of the counterstear technique?  I searched on google..and fumbled thru the forum here, but no real luck.  Thanks.
THANKS FOR THE LINK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This video is good at stratching the surface.