Does linked braking mean that I don't need to apply my rear brake except for emergencies? I've found that after a 25min ride my rear rotor is hotter than hell, where as my front rotors are just a little uncomfortable to the touch. Granted there are two rotors in front to distribute thermal energy and only one in the back, but it makes me feel like I should only be using my front brake and not the rear. Any thoughts?
beer.gif
yes your rear brake is necessary. When applying the front brake, it does not activate all of the pistons in the rear just like if you activate only the rear it does not activate all of the pistons in the front. So for maximum braking you need both. Around town at slow speeds and for scrubbing a little entry speed in corners I only use the front but for max. use both.
If your brake is that hot, you may have other issues like a dragging pad, stuck pistons, warped disk etc that need attention.
vfrqqq, Aug 21 2006, 08:46 AM
Does linked braking mean that I don't need to apply my rear brake except for emergencies? I've found that after a 25min ride my rear rotor is hotter than hell, where as my front rotors are just a little uncomfortable to the touch. Granted there are two rotors in front to distribute thermal energy and only one in the back, but it makes me feel like I should only be using my front brake and not the rear. Any thoughts?
beer.gif
I think yer thinking about it too much wink.gif
Rotors are made to accept and dissipate heat. Hotter than hell ain't a problem - ideally you want to modulate both brakes depending on the condition - linked brakes system has a bias built in so that both aren't applied equally.
I would continue to use yer rear.
Brakes are supposed to be hot... just an idiot story from when I was a street racing kid:
after taking four 1/4 mile passes, I was looking at the front rotors through the rim (I had felt brake fade), and like the intelligent being that I am I reached down to touch the rotor... about a week or two later the blistering healed. sad.gif
Anyhow, the only reason brakes work is friction, friction creates heat, that heat is eventually disappated and isn't a problem unless you over use the brakes (keep a foot on the pedal or something) and begin to experience extreme heat and brake fade. But, unless you have a problem, you will not experience this on your VFR with any normal or spirited riding. (do make sure you aren't dragging a pad).
I usually use both brakes to stop, not because it is necessary to stop normally, but because it is "Muscle Memory" (a term I learned in the military). I use both every time, so that when an emergency happens (and it has / will) I don't think about it... I just hit both the brakes for maximum stopping.
quema, Aug 21 2006, 06:29 AM
I usually use both brakes to stop, not because it is necessary to stop normally, but because it is "Muscle Memory" (a term I learned in the military). I use both every time, so that when an emergency happens (and it has / will) I don't think about it... I just hit both the brakes for maximum stopping.
+1.gif
You should always use both brakes even when you don't "need" both brakes. That way when you panic stop, you'll squeeze both without even thinking about it.
I use both even when riding through traffic and lazily approaching stop signs and stop lights. I can tell you from the few panic stops I have had to do, the practice works. I notice my foot is putting pressure on the pedal only after I have found myself clear of a hazard.
I don't use brakes much (PACE method) and never use the rear except in a Panic situation. But brakes can be used to make the bike do things that will Help you control the bike in ceratin situations (either front or rear).
I am a very capable rider, but this area of using different braking methods to help make the bike do what you want is a weak area for me. There are certain situations were trail braking the rear only will greatly help in certain situation, as too were front trail braking can help maintain or achieve a tighter line.
There's a ton of speed(read lap Times lowered) to be gained with proper braking technic, it would be worth it to learn them. fing02.gif
I just hate locking the rear. huh.gif
vfrqqq, Aug 21 2006, 07:46 AM
Does linked braking mean that I don't need to apply my rear brake except for emergencies? I've found that after a 25min ride my rear rotor is hotter than hell, where as my front rotors are just a little uncomfortable to the touch. Granted there are two rotors in front to distribute thermal energy and only one in the back, but it makes me feel like I should only be using my front brake and not the rear. Any thoughts?
beer.gif
The rear doesnt have the cooling effect as much as the front, so if you use it it will run hotter than the front.
If a new bike, I' reccomend flushing fluid in the first 2000 miles , I also did the front suspension at 6,000 miles it was Black. My last bike had 49mm showas the fluid was still pretty clean at 15,000 miles. I wish this bike had those forks. Only reason I did it at 6000 was somebody did it at 10 and said it was severely degraded.
spud786, Aug 21 2006, 11:12 AM
If a new bike, I' reccomend flushing fluid in the first 2000 miles , I also did the front suspension at 6,000 miles it was Black. My last bike had 49mm showas the fluid was still pretty clean at 15,000 miles. I wish this bike had those forks. Only reason I did it at 6000 was somebody did it at 10 and said it was severely degraded.
I don't know why, but my Vtec with 40k on it still has new looking brake fluid. blink.gif Of course I try not to use brakes much, they just slow you down! tongue.gif
baileyrock, Aug 21 2006, 11:58 AM
I don't know why, but my Vtec with 40k on it still has new looking brake fluid. blink.gif Of course I try not to use brakes much, they just slow you down! tongue.gif
SUPER MOTOing is hard on a VFR, I guess
With some bikes, such as cruisers, the front brake does about 70% of the work and the rear brake does about 30% of the work when stopping as quickly as possible on dry pavement. However, that's not true with sport bikes since sport bikes have a shorter wheel base and a higher center of gravity resulting in more weight transfer to the front.
If a bike is capable of doing a stoppie, then, when stopping as quickly as possible, the front brake actually does 100% of the work and the rear brake is incapable of adding to the stopping effort.
On the VFR, when stopping as quickly as possible, I doubt that there would be much weight on the rear wheel. Therefore, the rear brake would be incapable of adding much to the stopping effort in which case the fact that the brakes are linked may mean that when using only the hand lever, the rear brake is already doing as much as it can when the brake pedal is not used. If this is correct, then there would be no good reason to use the rear brake pedal when stopping as quickly as possible on dry pavement. In fact, using the rear brake pedal even lightly could result in applying too much braking force to the back wheel, resulting in locking the wheel, possibly causing a high-side crash. Of course, with ABS, there would be no wheel locking in which case using the rear brake pedal would not cause the rear brake to lock.
In normal stopping, there is less weight transfer and probably it is desirable to use both the hand lever and the pedal since using the hand lever applies the rear brake only lightly.
Although the MSF course teaches that both brakes should be used all the time, one must realize that it is very watered down and does not give adequate consideration to differing designs of bikes.
Rather than continuing to argue this matter (it could go on forever), I'd like to see some objective tests done with the VFR to determine what the most effective braking techniques are. That is the only way to settle it.
Just a question, here... wouldn't a locked up (dragging) rear tire create more friction than one that wasn't?
Although a bad habit to get into (in case you get on a different bike), you could probably just forget about your rear brake. I only use my back when coming to a stop to make the transition from about 2mph to 0 a little smoother.
As Kevin said, there are gains to be made by proper braking, but in most street instances, and in emergency braking as well, using the front lever will give you 100% braking on a VFR. I know some will disagree with me on this, but I can engage ABS on both front and rear wheels by using just the front brake lever doing practice emergency stops. That single rear piston can lock the rear tire.
I know some will disagree with me on this, but I can engage ABS on both front and rear wheels by using just the front brake lever doing practice emergency stops. That single rear piston can lock the rear tire.
To me, that indicates that it is probably best to use only the front brake lever on the VFR when making emergency stops on dry pavement (which, of course, should be required only VERY rarely for a prudent rider). However, on wet pavement or gravel, I think that both should be used because under those conditions, there would be less forward weight transfer and applying enough force to the hand lever to lock the front wheel might not apply enough braking to the rear wheel.
Normally, I use both brakes, except at very low speeds or when coming to the final stop, in which case I normally use only the rear brake. I have ABS and have tried it at up to 20 mph, but at that low speed, I couldn't tell whether the ABS was activated on the rear wheel. Probably I should find a place to try it at a higher speed.
FRE, Sep 9 2006, 11:19 PM
To me, that indicates that it is probably best to use only the front brake lever on the VFR when making emergency stops on dry pavement (which, of course, should be required only VERY rarely for a prudent rider). However, on wet pavement or gravel, I think that both should be used because under those conditions, there would be less forward weight transfer and applying enough force to the hand lever to lock the front wheel might not apply enough braking to the rear wheel.
Normally, I use both brakes, except at very low speeds or when coming to the final stop, in which case I normally use only the rear brake. I have ABS and have tried it at up to 20 mph, but at that low speed, I couldn't tell whether the ABS was activated on the rear wheel. Probably I should find a place to try it at a higher speed.
When it just starts raining, about 80mph grab a hand full of brake to feel ABS engage at both ends.
I like to practice so I will react quicker in a emergency situation. I use maximum braking, that is to the point of impending lockup. But I always use the front and rear brakes. I used to hate LBS but I have grown attatched to it.
robertd, Sep 9 2006, 09:51 PM
Just a question, here... wouldn't a locked up (dragging) rear tire create more friction than one that wasn't?
Just the opposite. When the tire locks up it "breaks loose" and friction is lost, increasing stopping distance.
Think about it on the opposite side of the spectrum. You accelerate faster when he tire doesn't "break loose"...it's the same principle.
The rear brake is useful for slow speed manuevers. I drag it a little and use the clutch and throttle at the same time to go really slow in a parking lot. fing02.gif
I try to use the brakes as little as possible...if needed, front brakes only. I generally add rear only when coming to low speed full stops. Use to use both together on a previous VTX1800C cruiser with linked brakes because of low center of gravity...no way to get enough weight transfer to the front..... wheel.gif
Rear brakes are evil. I only use them when I'm in a situation like riding on gravel roads, in the rain, or god forbid riding on the grass. In a panic situation if you are in the habit of using the rear brake you WILL lock the rear tire. It WILL slide all over the place and you will likely crash. I encourage everyone to practice your maximum braking frequently and be used to how your bike will react in a panic situation.
jeremy556, Sep 9 2006, 08:21 PM
When it just starts raining, about 80mph grab a hand full of brake to feel ABS engage at both ends.
Could
you try that and let me know what happens? biggrin.gif
beechkingd, Sep 10 2006, 11:37 PM
Rear brakes are evil. I only use them when I'm in a situation like riding on gravel roads, in the rain, or god forbid riding on the grass. In a panic situation if you are in the habit of using the rear brake you WILL lock the rear tire. It WILL slide all over the place and you will likely crash. I encourage everyone to practice your maximum braking frequently and be used to how your bike will react in a panic situation.
+1 fing02.gif
damn I wish enzed viffer had posted to this.... " i used the rear brake and i crashed and died.....then the bike blew up and i died some more...."
The LBS works great for a lazy rider....and it apparently has created lazy riders. You do not see LBS in Bike racing. Thinking that the rear is useless and that all the braking strength is in the front is going to eventually lead one of you to a front washing out during heavy braking. you are lucky to have LBS in that situation. there are actually times (even taught in MSF courses) that steering with the front and using the rear brake to slow is the only way to go (hello sand, ice, wet leaves ect) the vfr has weak brakes (comparitivly), and it allows the LBS to work less visibly The Duc i had was actually easy(too easy) to get it standing on its nose due to strong brakes. and i believe knowing what i know now, that i would have Hated LBS on that bike. one member stated he thought that the rear was useless since 100% of braking is on the front in most panick brakings. If you have 100% on the front then you have surpassed a panic situation. you have applied to much force to the front and you may stop in time.....or you might just see what the underside of what you were about to hit looks like when your front washes out and you go sliding underneath. thats why it is always taught that braking is a balance effect....especially in a panic situation.
When I took the MSF course, they said NOTHING about situations in which only the rear brake should be used. Probably they should have.
Just to see what would happen, on my 2006 VFR ABS, I applied the rear brake as hard as I could without applying the front brake. It did slow the bike, but not nearly so fast as I would have expected and not nearly so fast as the rear brake on my Kawasaki Ninja 500 did; on the Ninja 500, I could lock the rear wheel. The VFR rear brake is really weak. However, that's not necessarily a problem since there is no situation in which it is appropriate to apply the rear brake aggressively anyway.
One racer, in a post on a sportbike site, stated that he never uses the rear brake while racing. There are greatly differing opinions on how to brake and many are sure that they are right and that everyone else is wrong. As I've previously stated, we need carefully controlled tests to determine what the best techniques are.
TW215, Sep 11 2006, 02:15 AM
+1 fing02.gif
I actually do it a lot, no problem. I practice braking in all different cirumstances I can find to be better prepared for when I need to stop in those circumstances.
FRE, Sep 11 2006, 03:19 AM When I took the MSF course, they said NOTHING about situations in which only the rear brake should be used. Probably they should have.
Just to see what would happen, on my 2006 VFR ABS, I applied the rear brake as hard as I could without applying the front brake. It did slow the bike, but not nearly so fast as I would have expected and not nearly so fast as the rear brake on my Kawasaki Ninja 500 did; on the Ninja 500, I could lock the rear wheel. The VFR rear brake is really weak. However, that's not necessarily a problem since there is no situation in which it is appropriate to apply the rear brake aggressively anyway.
One racer, in a post on a sportbike site, stated that he never uses the rear brake while racing. There are greatly differing opinions on how to brake and many are sure that they are right and that everyone else is wrong. As I've previously stated, we need carefully controlled tests to determine what the best techniques are.
It is not that the rear brake is weak, the LBS is preventing you from locking the rear as designed.
My XX has LBS and it's very hard to lock the rear tire up. Also the front's do work very well on mine but I still use the rears as well. Depending on what type of riding i'm doing determines what brake I use. After years of riding (right or not) i've learned what "upsets" the bike and what doesn't in certain situations.
Sometimes on say a decreasing radius turn that is more or less a slower speed turn if I feel to hot coming into the corner or I just need to scrub some speed for one reason or another I trail brake using the front and it sharpens my turn in and gets me back "on line"
In other situaitons like high speed sweepers (80-90+mph) I find that if I need to scrub a little speed or adjust the bike a little I'll drag the rear a little while still modulating the throttle to make my corner, this is especially helpful for those REALLY long sweepers that you didn't realize just how long they were and your a bit hamfisted going into it. Also getting off the throttle, at lean, at 90mph UPSETS the bike, so using the rear in this situation allows for throttle modulation and smooth corning while scrubbing maybe some extra unwanted speed. What you have to be careful with in this situation is not applying to much rear brake as to lock up the rear, all though the LBS is harder to do that on it can be done and will end up with you on the ground. It takes time and practice and this will on shed a few mph off, again ment to keep you in the comfort zone, a little brake here, little throttle there and your good.
I also will use a little rear brake if I'm getting ready to enter a corner, I've used my front to scrub what I think is enough speed then decide that maybe I want to go a bit slower, then I just drag the rear a bit, still working the throttle as I normally would. Works great on blind corners where you can't see all the way to the exit you want.
In panic stopping with LBS I think it's beneficial to use Both front and rear. The bike will stop fine with just the front but because the LBS makes it harder to A do stoppies and harder to lock the rear tire (as compared to a non LBS bike) then there is added benefit to using both and it will, no matter what anyone says, decrease your stopping distance if BOTH are used, and I emphasize "USED PROPERLY". It's just a matter of physics 3 discs and 3 sets of calipers is going to slow you more then 2 discs and 2 sets of calipers.
There was a test done on a video (posted here I think) where they did some stopping tests with a Gixxer 1000 (non LBS of course).
The first test was just the front - Good stopping distance but they were overapplied (for the panice factor) and ended up in a stoppie
2nd Just the rear - Flew out of camera shot didn't stop until way down the road
3rd test was both brakes applied properly and he was able to stop about 10-15' shorter then using just the front alone and of course way shorter then just the rear. So when it gets scary that extra 10' could be what saves your life.
jeremy556, Sep 11 2006, 07:45 AM
I actually do it a lot, no problem. I practice braking in all different cirumstances I can find to be better prepared for when I need to stop in those circumstances.
It is not that the rear brake is weak, the LBS is preventing you from locking the rear as designed.
LBS isn't designed to prevent locking...ABS is.
It is very easy to lock the rear brake, even without touching the rear brake lever. I've done maximum braking with the front end and had the rear skipping and chirping every time it touched the pavement. (Sorry Fixer, but that's not a mistake, that's maximum braking at its best...100% weight transfer without loss of control or locking the front end.)
euhh...... if Mr Honda put rear brakes on and you pay for them, why on earth not learn to use them properly?
my 2cents
If you need to brake hard in a corner, YOU WENT INTO THE CORNER TOO FAST!!
Faced with danger you want to scrub of speed pronto. This is best done with both brakes at full wack, bike upright and looking straigth ahead. Searching with your eyes from left to right will cause you to weave. Look where you go and you go where you look.
Practise practise practise in the mantra here.
Granted, my experience on a linked brake system was a 1990 Moto Guzzi LeMans V.
Ride safe.
tbzep, Sep 11 2006, 11:01 AM
LBS isn't designed to prevent locking...ABS is.
It is very easy to lock the rear brake, even without touching the rear brake lever. I've done maximum braking with the front end and had the rear skipping and chirping every time it touched the pavement. (Sorry Fixer, but that's not a mistake, that's maximum braking at its best...100% weight transfer without loss of control or locking the front end.)
still not buying it 100% its great you skipped the rear wheel, but for 95% of the riders out there 100% braking to the front is going to be a hazard. at 100% a drop of oil on the road and you lost the front. people need to learn balance and to keep a reserve of traction under them.
767fixer, Sep 11 2006, 10:41 PM
still not buying it 100% its great you skipped the rear wheel, but for 95% of the riders out there 100% braking to the front is going to be a hazard. at 100% a drop of oil on the road and you lost the front. people need to learn balance and to keep a reserve of traction under them.
Let's see...a retard in a cage pulls out in front of me... I can brake at 90%, hit the guy and definately go down with some major injuries. Or I can brake at 100% so I won't hit the retard at all (while running the risk that I might go down if I hit some oil and still get injuries). 90% braking and definate injury or 100% braking and possibility of injury....that's a no brainer.
The whole point of "panic braking" is to use extreme breaking measures to prevent something really, really, really bad from happening to you. If you aren't braking at 100%, either you aren't in a truly dire situation, or you only need "fairly heavy" braking, rather than "panic braking". I've had to panic brake at 100% only three times since 1988. I've had to use fairly to very heavy braking many times.
Maybe we just see the definition of "panic braking" differently.
I'm with tbzep - in fact I believe you are not at risk of impending front wheel lockup if you're stopping so hard the rear wheel is skipping. If it was really a fine line that is so hard to walk, almost all of us who have track time would have dumped our bikes already. If there is something in the road that is so slippery it's going to bring you down, you are likely to go down with ANY braking force applied IMO, so it's really a moot point. As it is we're talking about straight line braking anyway... if you go over a small patch you should be able to keep it upright when you come out on the other side. If you go over a big patch, you are probably going to crash regardless of any inputs you make. (Picture riding 30mph onto a frozne pond - you are going down no matter what as soon as the bike's inertia fails to hold you up)
The LBS works great, Honda has done a great job. In the latest version it really does a great job of balancing "idiot proofing" with allowing an experienced rider as much control as possible. It really does make it harder to lock the wheels, and it stops very very well with very little drama. I say that as someone who has locked both wheels (not at the same time) more then once and lived to talk about it without even having to change my underwear.
One thing I think you could debate though is whether it would be better if the system worked as-is except for having the front brake lever trigger all 6 pistons on the front brakes so you aren't really required to touch the back brake.
I'm not a great trail braker but I have yet to really find the LBS is a limiter there. I'm also not buying the issue with the rear pedal on dirt, I don't use my VFR as a dirtbike but the LBS has always been fine when I find myself on a dirt road.
End of thread · 30 posts recovered Wayback Machine snapshot 18 Oct 2006