I just finished inspecting the valves on my VTEC. This the first time I have inspected the valves since I purchased the bike 4.5 years ago (new). The bike currently has a little over 45,000 miles on it and has been to the track 4 times, including two full days at Barber, AL. It has also been to Deals Gap four times, where I proceeded to destroy a set of Pilot Powers in 1700 miles (front lasted 2200), which is basically to say that this bike has been ridden very hard!
Before starting the valve adjustment, I decided that if all primary valves were in spec that I was not going to check the VTEC valves. I estimated that the VTEC valves had approximately 60 - 70% fewer cycles than the primaries and the odds of these valves being out of spec, while the primaries were not, was next to impossible. Go ahead and flame me on this issue, but I firmly believe this to be true. I also believe Honda could have used this fact to save face on the ridiculously involved valve inspections of the VTEC.
Upon checking the valves, I was shocked that they were all in spec, not just in spec, but the intakes were dead on at .20mm. However, the exhaust had tightened up just a bit to .33mm, but still in spec. These measurements were consistent between the front and rear bank. Since the primaries were all still in spec, I decided to button the bike up and look at them again in 20,000 miles. After another 20,000 miles, I suspect the exhaust will need to be shimmed by the minimum amount; at this point, I will sand each shim by the appropriate amount (trust me, it works) to keep from having to drive to the dealer twice and having my bike out of commission for 3-5 days.
Please don�t bother with the old clich� �I have my valve adjustments done properly to protect my $12,000 investment� this simply does not hold any water with me. A motorcycle is a depreciating asset, and a 02 VFR with 45,000 miles on it is worth about what two VTEC adjustments costs through one of the more expensive dealers. It is not an investment, but a money pit; if I can reduce the depth of said pit then I am more than happy to do so.
Overall, checking the primaries was not too difficult. The hardest part was removing the radiators and the lower side of the Air filter. However, had I checked the VTEC valves, I predict that the job would have taken an additional 8 hours.
You're right, they are money pits, and the hardest part is the radiator removal. I disagree on the extra time for the vtec valves though. I'd estimate it took an extra 2 hours to check them as well. At 18,000 miles I had none out of spec.
mage1969, Sep 12 2006, 10:16 AM Go ahead and flame me on this issue...
Please don�t bother with the old clich� �I have my valve adjustments done properly to protect my $12,000 investment� this simply does not hold any water with me.
gosh, if I didn't know better I'd think you were expecting an argument (IMG:style_emoticons/oldemoticons/laugh.gif)
I haven't read about many people finding valves out of spec...you'll need to argue about oil or tires like the rest of us (IMG:style_emoticons/oldemoticons/wink.gif)
Personally I think all bikes are basically money pits, routine maintenance on our $10,000 VFRs (who pays $12000!) seems to cost about the same as a $60,000-100,000 car....
BUT... you always gotta remember even if the service on this bike is expensive if you pay someone to do it or painful if you do it yourself, it's still way cheaper then buying another $10,000 bike to replace it.
I bought my '04 used a month ago with just 4200 mi. on the clock, and have put over 1200 on it since then. Lucky for me I guess that I have at least another 10k to go before the 1st valve check.
I'm not too mechanically inclined so I don't know if I'll attempt it myself, but it's good to hear that most of the time nothing needs to be adjusted, and it's good to be informed if and when I take the bike to a dealer for work. Based on most VFR maintenance info on this site, I can ask the right questions and avoid getting hosed. Thanks for the valve info, guys.
If I remember correctly, it is the Vtec valves that tend to be Out of Spec sooner than the standard non-vtec valves. I wish you would have gone ahead and checked the Ftc valves, because I'm at over 40k and haven't checked mine once yet either. As far as Maint. Cost go for my Vtec, in the very hard 40,000 miles I've put on it, the Total cost has been $200 ! (IMG:style_emoticons/oldemoticons/tongue.gif) That is outside any normal wear items like tires, chains, sprockets, oil & filters that wear out the same as any other bike. That $200 cost includes replacing my CTT @32k (myself) and all cost associated with adding an extra ground wire at the Blue connector and replacing the 30 amp fuse block(Radio Shack). That's it! I have absolutely no complaints about this bike's dependability, cost of ownership, surging or Vtec issues. It does and has done everything I have ever asked for it to do and against any other make, brand or size motorcycle. (IMG:style_emoticons/oldemoticons/fing02.gif) Sure I might have some small bitches, but I don't think a bike exists that I wouldn't have something to bitch about for any amount of money! Thank you Father Honda, I love my VTEC !!!!!!!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/oldemoticons/rolleyes.gif)
Luckily just about everything but the valve maintenance is easily done at home if you're halfway competent and will result in big maintenance savings if you're willing to give up a few weekend afternoons a year while you learn.
I'm going to have to do my valve maintenance sometime soon, I'll pay to have it done. Otherwise I have done 100% of the maintenance so far myself, which really eases my mind and makes the maintenance easier to stomach. It's been fun, I've never worked on my cars as much as I've worked on the VFR and the learning experience has been somewhat rewarding. I think I've basically done all the routine jobs now, so it's only going to get easier from here on out.
I can manage changing my oil/oil filter, cleaning my air filter, tightening my chain, but... Checking the valve clearance? I might have to take it to a professional. I think its great you can do it yourself, and I can see your logic about the VTEC values usage, but, remember, when they 'are' being used, its at a higher RPM range under harder conditions, and it doesn't sound like you spend much time under the VTEC range anyway.
I agree with your thoughts on risk/reward here. It would be nice if there were some statistical data that would support the potential damage/cost if they are slightly out of spec. If one valve is out of spec by .02 mm for 16,000 miles, does that reduce the usable life of the motorcycle by 5,000 miles?
I went through similar thoughts when choosing to buy liability insurance only for my 03 from the beginning. For me, I felt the probability of theft or destruction was low relative to the cost of full coverage and I decided to take the risk.
However, I'm not sure any rules of thumb work here about whether valves will be out of spec at the first check. A number of people have reported no adjustment, but I checked mine at 16,200 and the number 3 cylinder needed adjustment. Both the standard and VTEC exhaust side were out of spec on the tight side.
For the initial check, I assume the results have more to do with initial build rather than wear, which means there is greater potential for something to be out of spec. I may be wrong, but I would expect wear to be relatively uniform and so there would be better likelihood of predicting issues for subsequent checks.
For me, there was not enough info to take a calculated risk here. It took me an additional 4 hours to do the VTEC check, but I'm glad I did. The majority of the extra time for me was due to having all of the cams (front and back) out at once and then realizing I needed resequence them for installation. (IMG:style_emoticons/oldemoticons/ohmy.gif)
Hey sweet, I am starting to like these VTECs more and more. I will say that you and Baily Rock have a lot of faith in Honda. I would be more tempted to get the first valve adjustment done, then let it go for 40,000 more. Give that motor time to wear in, and if Honda gimped on the initial valve adjustment, you fix it early and then get tons of maintence free miles out of the way. (IMG:style_emoticons/oldemoticons/wheel.gif)
benSV, Sep 12 2006, 09:40 AM Personally I think all bikes are basically money pits, routine maintenance on our $10,000 VFRs (who pays $12000!) seems to cost about the same as a $60,000-100,000 car....
He he, my truck timing belt replacement/valve check costed about twice what having the valves adjusted on my early model Interceptor. The truck has those dreaded shims and the intake has to be removed for one side, so I feel some of that VTEC pain. (IMG:style_emoticons/oldemoticons/comp13.gif)
I have to say that the only way to do a job right is to do it yourself. It gives you a connection with your machine. I am redoing the valve adjustment on my VF this winter because I am sure the job was not done properly by the dealer that got me. (IMG:style_emoticons/oldemoticons/pissed.gif)
Chev, Sep 12 2006, 11:30 AM I would be more tempted to get the first valve adjustment done, then let it go for 40,000 more.
Actually, it's the first Valve check at 16k that is a Waste of money for all Vtec owners IMO! Even with a valve out of spec, no damage will/can be done to the engine/valves until there's No clearance left at all, meaning Zero gap! I would beat every Vtec owner could skip the first check and have them checked at 32k and still not have a Single valve with ZERO gap (which is the Only time when any damage could occur). Basically what happens is that the valve seat keeps wearing, allowing the valve to go deeper and deeper into the head. This is what causes the gaps to get tighter(close) and at some point (without adjustment) the valve will ride against the cam the whole time, holding the valve open open slightly causing an eventual burning of the valve! It's your money and bike though! (IMG:style_emoticons/oldemoticons/tongue.gif)
TimC, Sep 12 2006, 10:47 AM I bought my '04 used a month ago with just 4200 mi. on the clock, and have put over 1200 on it since then. Lucky for me I guess that I have at least another 10k to go before the 1st valve check.
I'm not too mechanically inclined so I don't know if I'll attempt it myself, but it's good to hear that most of the time nothing needs to be adjusted, and it's good to be informed if and when I take the bike to a dealer for work. Based on most VFR maintenance info on this site, I can ask the right questions and avoid getting hosed. Thanks for the valve info, guys.
baileyrock, Sep 12 2006, 12:01 PM I would beat every Vtec owner could skip the first check and have them checked at 32k and still not have a Single valve with ZERO gap
Fair enough, but I bet some of those owners will have excessive gap, not causing immediate part failure, but causing a loss in long term wearability.
Chev, Sep 12 2006, 12:10 PM Fair enough, but I bet some of those owners will have excessive gap, not causing immediate part failure, but causing a loss in long term wearability.
I would expect K&N users to see more intake recession than those running stock filters. once a valve gets waytight and out of spec it can cause it to stress quicker, that's the only draw back.
The thing is lets say valve spec is .2mm to .3mm
If valve is at .2mm , mechanic will adjust it, but it could have held there for thousands and thousands of miles, or never have moved.
benSV, Sep 12 2006, 04:40 PM Personally I think all bikes are basically money pits, routine maintenance on our $10,000 VFRs (who pays $12000!)
We do!
In fact an 06 VTEC would work out around $19,500................... (IMG:style_emoticons/oldemoticons/sad.gif) But I'm ok, I *love* my 4th Gen (IMG:style_emoticons/oldemoticons/wheel.gif)
baileyrock, Sep 12 2006, 04:47 PM As far as Maint. Cost go for my Vtec, in the very hard 40,000 miles I've put on it, the Total cost has been $200 ! (IMG:style_emoticons/oldemoticons/tongue.gif)
(IMG:style_emoticons/oldemoticons/+1.gif)
My only maintenance costs so far (outside normal wear and tear) has been to replace a faulty thermostat, I believe it cost me around $20.00. I also added O2 eliminators at around 3900 miles to cure the stumbling problem.
baileyrock, Sep 12 2006, 01:01 PM Actually, it's the first Valve check at 16k that is a Waste of money for all Vtec owners IMO! Even with a valve out of spec, no damage will/can be done to the engine/valves until there's No clearance left at all, meaning Zero gap! I would beat every Vtec owner could skip the first check and have them checked at 32k and still not have a Single valve with ZERO gap (which is the Only time when any damage could occur). Basically what happens is that the valve seat keeps wearing, allowing the valve to go deeper and deeper into the head. This is what causes the gaps to get tighter(close) and at some point (without adjustment) the valve will ride against the cam the whole time, holding the valve open open slightly causing an eventual burning of the valve! It's your money and bike though! (IMG:style_emoticons/oldemoticons/tongue.gif)
Ok so why does the clearence become larger. Wear on the tappet? This is a good thread. My vtec has 12k and I dont plan on doing the valve check. Maintenance on the vtec has been really inexpensive.
spud786, Sep 12 2006, 06:35 PM I would expect K&N users to see more intake recession than those running stock filters. once a valve gets waytight and out of spec it can cause it to stress quicker, that's the only draw back.
The thing is lets say valve spec is .2mm to .3mm
If valve is at .2mm , mechanic will adjust it, but it could have held there for thousands and thousands of miles, or never have moved.
I agree that a K&N may let more dirt in thus accelerating wear and tear on the valves. However, my bike has a K&N filter that was installed around 8,000 miles and my valves have not moved. I should point out that I have never cleaned the K&N filter until the other day. K&N's are supposed to work best when they are become saturated with dirt?
soichiro, Sep 12 2006, 12:52 PM Ok so why does the clearence become larger. Wear on the tappet?
Yes, or improper initial assembly. It happens, I once recieved a sparkplug from Champion that did not have threads. (IMG:style_emoticons/oldemoticons/pissed.gif)
Thanks to Mage1969, for starting this thread, as i just hit the 16,000 mile mark on my 04. He (?) stated well what i was wondering about regarding work, wear, tolerance, and activation time on VTEC valves. Brilliant; sanding the shims!
And Thanks to all that posted Their point of view too.
5,171 posts for BaileyRock? Perhaps he is the Son of "Father Honda"? (IMG:style_emoticons/oldemoticons/goofy.gif)
Guess i'll wait till ~50% over; or approx 24,000 miles, and poor weather conditions
Chev, Sep 12 2006, 12:10 PM Fair enough, but I bet some of those owners will have excessive gap, not causing immediate part failure, but causing a loss in long term wearability.
I don't see how anything could cause a loss in long term wearability related to valve spec, unless it has no gap and hangs a valve open. What Honda hopes by setting the service intervals at 16k is that if an owner goes another 16-20k between the next service that there would be No chance of causing any damage. In general all gaps will decrease with wear, not grow. I have no idea why any gap would grow. (IMG:style_emoticons/oldemoticons/unsure.gif)
Flailer, Sep 12 2006, 06:58 PM Brilliant; sanding the shims!
The convenience alone is enough to prompt me to sand the shims, not to mention you can set the valves at exact specs. This is a technique used heavily in the High performance off-road four strokes
There a few who do not like the idea of sanding because they claim it removes the shim number and makes it impossible for future owners (of your motorcycle) to know what shims to order. However, you only need take a micrometer ($5.00 from eBay) and measure the thickness of the shim to determine what number the shim is (for example, 1.85 = 1.85mm). Others claim that the inside of a shim is softer than the outside and you will expose the softer part if you sand the shims. I can tell you after five valve adjustments on a 02 WR250F that sanding is not a problem.
DizzyDave, Sep 12 2006, 11:54 AM I can manage changing my oil/oil filter, cleaning my air filter, tightening my chain, but... Checking the valve clearance? I might have to take it to a professional. I think its great you can do it yourself, and I can see your logic about the VTEC values usage, but, remember, when they 'are' being used, its at a higher RPM range under harder conditions, and it doesn't sound like you spend much time under the VTEC range anyway.
-DizzyDave
You can do it Dave! (IMG:style_emoticons/oldemoticons/beer.gif)
LOL. All posts concidered, you can't do s#!t with the v-tech valves until they're out, anyway. IMHO, save for tires, and a thermostat. LOL.
thanks for the info..I assumed also the bit about the secondary valves not wearing as fast..long as they got some clearance all is well..has worked for me for 30 yrs on all my bikes and never a problem..Sanding just fine also as thickness is all that matters to me..been doing it forever.
as for my vtec..love it, but wont do the valves anyway as will unload it next summer as 2 yrs on same bike , should only have about 20,000 miles on it....time to move on...
Please don�t bother with the old clich� �I have my valve adjustments done properly to protect my $12,000 investment� this simply does not hold any water with me. A motorcycle is a depreciating asset, and a 02 VFR with 45,000 miles on it is worth about what two VTEC adjustments costs through one of the more expensive dealers. It is not an investment, but a money pit; if I can reduce the depth of said pit then I am more than happy to do so.
My thoughts exactly. I have owned a few Honda civics and treated them the same getting hundreds of thousands of miles, and Honda wants you to come in and have a 10K service on them....please.
mage1969, Sep 12 2006, 07:35 PM There a few who do not like the idea of sanding because they claim it removes the shim number and makes it impossible for future owners (of your motorcycle) to know what shims to order. However, you only need take a micrometer ($5.00 from eBay) and measure the thickness of the shim to determine what number the shim is (for example, 1.85 = 1.85mm). Others claim that the inside of a shim is softer than the outside and you will expose the softer part if you sand the shims. I can tell you after five valve adjustments on a 02 WR250F that sanding is not a problem.
I first sanded the shims on my ST1100 after learning the method used to sand fiber optic cable connectors.
Use a figure 8 and count the laps. After about 10 figure 8's turn the shim 1/4 turn and do it again until you go around the 360 degree horn. Use 600 git wet and dry sandpaper.
I don't think the shims are just surfaced hardened but are made from material that has constant hardness all the way through so you don't need to concern about breaking into soft material.
I keep careful records of any sanded shim as to where it came from and what size it was sanded down from. This way anyone that gets the bike in the future will know what was done and by how much.
I think the most I ever had to take a shim down was .002" and I never had any trouble with the valve it was installed in.
baileyrock, Sep 12 2006, 05:01 PM Actually, it's the first Valve check at 16k that is a Waste of money for all Vtec owners IMO! ...
I would beat every Vtec owner ...
Please don't beat us. We take enough grief as it is. (IMG:style_emoticons/oldemoticons/biggrin.gif)
The only reason I did the check is that I wanted to get a good baseline (i.e., validate that the initial assembly was in spec) and prove to myself that I could do it. It was not hard. It just took some time plus the cost of a Vtec bucket. I probably will not check it for 24k now.
From my understanding, the only way clearance could increase is if there was bucket or cam lobe wear greater than valve seat wear -- pretty unlikely. Too much clearance should just result in a decline in performance rather than damage as the valve would close but not open fully inhibiting intake or exhaust somewhat.
End of thread · 30 posts recoveredWayback Machine snapshot 13 Nov 2006