Shifting Question

Its been about six months since the last shifting thread ... time for another. goofy.gif

Seriously, advice on clutchless upshifting would be appreciated. I believe its fine if its smooth. The problem is, its real smooth about half the time, and jerky the other half. My current theory is that jerky shifts cut the throttle too much and then apply too much throttle at the end of the "wrist snap."

Any ideas/theories appreciated. Bike is an 04 with 8k miles.

My "wrist snap" takes about a millisecond (or less tongue.gif ) and makes for a very smooth clutchless upshift, be it at gentle acceleration or WOT/12,000 rpm changes. It takes very little throttle roll-off in either case to release pressure against the transmission's dog teeth to allow a quick upshift.

RocketRider, Sep 23 2006, 11:08 AM Its been about six months since the last shifting thread ... time for another. goofy.gif

Seriously, advice on clutchless upshifting would be appreciated. I believe its fine if its smooth. The problem is, its real smooth about half the time, and jerky the other half. My current theory is that jerky shifts cut the throttle too much and then apply too much throttle at the end of the "wrist snap."

Any ideas/theories appreciated. Bike is an 04 with 8k miles.

Make sure you are not trying to kick it into gear when you roll off, that you are just applying the same amount of light pressure and it will shift when it is ready to.

jeremy556, Sep 23 2006, 11:15 AM
Make sure you are not trying to kick it into gear when you roll off, that you are just applying the same amount of light pressure and it will shift when it is ready to.

Yep! Eggzakly. fing02.gif

Trace, Sep 23 2006, 11:13 AM
... be it at gentle acceleration or WOT/12,000 rpm changes. ...

I think that this is the key - the shift has to be during an acceleration. If you are just cruising or (gasp) decelerating the upshift shift is going to be snatchy.

you guys drive me crazy with this clutchless crap. The clutch is there for a reason. Use it you lazy bastids tongue.gif . It's not like your are trying to shave 2/10th's a second off of your lap time so you can pass Rossi.

cozye, Sep 23 2006, 11:50 AM
you guys drive me crazy with this clutchless crap. The clutch is there for a reason. Use it you lazy bastids tongue.gif . It's not like your are trying to shave 2/10th's a second off of your lap time so you can pass Rossi.

lurk.gif

cozye, Sep 23 2006, 12:50 PM
you guys drive me crazy with this clutchless crap. The clutch is there for a reason. Use it you lazy bastids tongue.gif . It's not like your are trying to shave 2/10th's a second off of your lap time so you can pass Rossi.

Dang, I thought there wuz sumpin' wrong with bump starting it at every red light. blink.gif

cozye, Sep 23 2006, 12:50 PM you guys drive me crazy with this clutchless crap. The clutch is there for a reason. Use it you lazy bastids tongue.gif . It's not like your are trying to shave 2/10th's a second off of your lap time so you can pass Rossi.

Speak for yourself! wink.gif wheel.gif
I actually use it mainly for when I am riding without my left hand on the grip, or if I am going all out WFO; otherwise I just use the clutch.

cozye, Sep 23 2006, 04:50 PM
you guys drive me crazy with this clutchless crap. The clutch is there for a reason. Use it you lazy bastids tongue.gif . It's not like your are trying to shave 2/10th's a second off of your lap time so you can pass Rossi.

Got to agree with Cozye on this one. +1.gif

johnmark101, Sep 24 2006, 12:40 AM
Got to agree with Cozye on this one. +1.gif

I agree also,,,,,,,,,,,,,continued use of clutchless shifting is just a unnecessary shock to the drivetrain. Racebikes, dragbikes do it all the time, but they get torn down each week and worn/damaged parts get replaced.

RocketRider, Sep 23 2006, 11:08 PM
Its been about six months since the last shifting thread ... time for another. goofy.gif

Have you searched and read those threads?
I think I started the last one.
I share your problem although find, by always setting up for a clutch shift if it doesn't upshift clutchless smoothly as soon as I level back I clutch in and that is the best compromise I can come up with, for low RPM riding, maybe one becomes more intuitive as one develops technique and it will smooth out
Anyone know a better answer?

ScottW, Sep 24 2006, 05:01 AM
I agree also,,,,,,,,,,,,,continued use of clutchless shifting is just a unnecessary shock to the drivetrain. Racebikes, dragbikes do it all the time, but they get torn down each week and worn/damaged parts get replaced.

not to mention they are fitted with quick shifters that kill the spark and fuel for upshifting.

ScottW, Sep 24 2006, 05:01 AM
I agree also,,,,,,,,,,,,,continued use of clutchless shifting is just a unnecessary shock to the drivetrain. Racebikes, dragbikes do it all the time, but they get torn down each week and worn/damaged parts get replaced.

This confuses me a bit. blink.gif

Smooth, clutchless shifts happen about half the time for me. Its not inevitable that they cause shock because sometimes they don't. The whole point of the thread was to figure out how to make them happen 98% of the time (or better).

So the following questions seem relevant
- what causes drivetrain shock? (obviously a speed mismatch when the slack is gone)
- what happens in a perfect clutchless shift?
- how can you make that happen every time .. or ... what did the rider do wrong when it doesn't happen?

What the naysayers are really saying is that its not possible to consistently make them smooth .. that its just dumb luck when it happens. That, perhaps, humans can't consistently make the correct motions. Its too quick, or requires too much coordination, or .... something. comp13.gif

Right?

Intuitively, that seems wrong. Humans can achieve great consistency in rapid, complex movements, even ones that involve moving whole limbs rather than flicking your wrist (e.g., martial arts) ... but maybe you guys have a compelling argument. I, for one, would sincerely appreciate hearing it.

RocketRider, Sep 24 2006, 10:36 PM
What the naysayers are really saying is that its not possible to consistently make them smooth .. that its just dumb luck when it happens. That, perhaps, humans can't consistently make the correct motions. Its too quick, or requires too much coordination, or .... something. comp13.gif
Right?
Intuitively, that seems wrong. Humans can achieve great consistency in rapid, complex movements, even ones that involve moving whole limbs rather than flicking your wrist (e.g., martial arts) ... but maybe you guys have a compelling argument. I, for one, would sincerely appreciate hearing it.

Amen Brother

I rode the latest FJR1300 computer controlled clutch paddle shift thingy and have seen other shifters and frankly after seeing them I BELIEVE I can shift just as good as these devices

It is the in the pursuit of perfection we seek this knowledge

PS: Thanks to all the naysayers for bumping the thread up, helping us in the quest for complete motorcycle knowledge

RocketRider,

I agree. Clutchless shifting is a skill to be admired. It cannot always be done, but the knowledge and ability to do it should be sought.

[Keeping in mind of course the the vast majority of people on this continent can't figure out what a clutch does at all...]

Clutches are for wankers.... laugh.gif goofy.gif

3.gif 3.gif 3.gif

clutches are for stoplights smile.gif


well...and wankers

tongue.gif

I do clutchless upshifts when I'm under hard acceleration and it does no damage that I'm aware of. My track bike is an 93 cbr f2 and it still shifts perfectly. It's never been opened up and its been on the track with 2 previous owners for at least 8 years. I beat the crap out of it! I don't think you can say any more about Honda's engine/gearbox strength. The only mod I've done is to put a heavier detent spring and roller on when I was changing the clutch out.

Trace, Sep 24 2006, 10:12 AM
Clutches are for wankers.... squid.gif squid.gif laugh.gif

Clutches are for feathering that last bit of power out when you know you don't want to downshift, but you aren't satisfied with your acceleration.

True mastery of the clutch is a skill worthy of admiration.


wheel.gif wheel.gif wheel.gif

what I want to know is a single, good reason NOT to use the clutch.
Manual says to use the clutch. You can achieve good smooth shifts 100% of the time using the clutch. Thats what it is there for. Clutchless upshift is an absolutely worthless skill to have. Does it teach you to corner better? Is it helpful in any emergency situation ? Does it lessen rider fatigue ? The only reason I can think of to use it on the street is if you have severe Carpul tunnel or something. If thats the case, you need an FJR.

You can do some searches (those threads may have been purged) and find some fellow members who had transmissions tear up on here, and all of them IIRC ocassionally shifted clutchless.. There were two or three I challenge any of you "non wanker" clutchless shifters out there to provide a reference to any reputable source that endorses this practice.

Do you guys buy a 5 speed car and practice clutchless upshifting too? Or is it just that everyone wishes that their bikes had automatic transmissions?

Not trying to stir anything too much. For the life of me I just cannot figure out what the point to this is....

Call me a Wanker if you want. But I can gaurantee you that my bike is not going to suffer due to misuse.

I used to do clutchless shifts all the time; I was, in fact, the God of Clutchless Shifts. Countless hordes bowed down in worship and paid obeisance to me, sacrificing large herds of livestock in my honour, and offering me vestal virgins (to do m housework and polsih my... uh... VFR, of course.)
Then, ovenight, everything changed.

It all happened one dark and stormy night, when the sun was so hot the tar was running into the gutters, and the birds were falling out of the sky from heatstroke and feathersinge.

Despite running the approved Mobile 1 concoction, having Helibars, a SGDB screen, Corbin-Sargent seat, Z3 tahrs and all the other approved palaver, it happened. ohmy.gif
My dog/cog/log sheared its whatsits off, second gear became third, and I crashed. Heavily. Into the ground.
My engine then exploded, and the hot shrapnel from my forgotten clutch ignited the gas tank, where my petrol was kept, and it exploded. Then my ass exploded (although I didn't know it at the time, as it was back home on the farrrm, in the stable, with my donkey). And despite being immortal, I died.

And so, dear friends, I never do either crutchless or clutchless shifts. Ever.
Never ever.
Never.







Unless I feel like it, of course.




Which is not infrequently.

cozye, Sep 25 2006, 08:32 AM
Call me a Wanker if you want. .

OK, I will. Even though I know what 'wanker' means, and you possibly don't.


Cozye - You are a wanker.
And I mean that in the most caring, sharing, politically incorrect way.

cozye, Sep 24 2006, 04:32 PM
Do you guys buy a 5 speed car and practice clutchless upshifting too?

Naw, that's a different beast. Synchronized.

Ya really wanna blow yer mind? Go ask a trucker if he uses his clutch when he upshifts. smile.gif

I don't see anything *wrong* with either method. As long as you can do it smoothly. I've been speedshifting for a looooooong time on a BUNCH of different bikes - not a single issue... Matter of fact I would be willing to bet I can speedshift and get less driveline shock than a lot of yall can using the clutch.

Please control the Us/Them attitude & bashing of each other, talk about the subject Pro/Con! dry.gif

Sorry BR biggrin.gif .

enzed_viffer, Sep 24 2006, 04:45 PM
OK, I will. Even though I know what 'wanker' means, and you possibly don't.
Cozye - You are a wanker.
And I mean that in the most caring, sharing, politically incorrect way.

I am familiar with both meanings of Wanker, although I am not the one who brought the term up in this thread and its not a term I normally use nor like. Not that I am offended by the term, more so just because I usually use more "passionate" terms for endearment towards fellow friends and associates that probably would get one banned around here tongue.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanker

I still challenge anyone to come up with a legitimate reason for the topic at hand, especially with documentation.

cozye, Sep 24 2006, 04:32 PM
Do you guys buy a 5 speed car and practice clutchless upshifting too? Or is it just that everyone wishes that their bikes had automatic transmissions?

huh.gif blink.gif huh.gif

Yes, yes in fact I have learned to, and sometimes do, clutchless shift a car with a manual transmission. I don't discriminate by number of gears, I'll clutchless shift them all. 4, 5, 6, ... 7 ... whatever. blink.gif

And no, I certainly wouldn't want an automatic transmission in nearly any vehicle. Sometimes, when I'm feeling rambunctious, I'll even manually select the gear in the automatic transmission cars, vans, trucks, and busses I sometimes drive. blink.gif

enzed_viffer, Sep 24 2006, 04:45 PM
It all happened one dark and stormy night, when the sun was so hot the tar was running into the gutters, and the birds were falling out of the sky from heatstroke and feathersinge.
...
My dog/cog/log sheared its whatsits off, second gear became third, and I crashed. Heavily. Into the ground.
My engine then exploded, and the hot shrapnel from my forgotten clutch ignited the gas tank, where my petrol was kept, and it exploded. Then my ass exploded (although I didn't know it at the time, as it was back home on the farrrm, in the stable, with my donkey). And despite being immortal, I died.

And so, dear friends, I never do either crutchless or clutchless shifts. Ever.
Never ever.
Never.
Unless I feel like it, of course.
Which is not infrequently.

laugh.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif laugh.gif

cozye, Sep 24 2006, 07:05 PM
I still challenge anyone to come up with a legitimate reason for the topic at hand, especially with documentation.

It's faster.

Here comes the part where we argue the meaning of "legitimate".

cozye, Sep 24 2006, 11:05 PM
Sorry BR biggrin.gif .
I am familiar with both meanings of Wanker, although I am not the one who brought the term up in this thread and its not a term I normally use nor like. Not that I am offended by the term, more so just because I usually use more "passionate" terms for endearment towards fellow friends and associates that probably would get one banned around here tongue.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanker

I still challenge anyone to come up with a legitimate reason for the topic at hand, especially with documentation.

I do it because its fun. I also do wheelies some times, you know why? They're fun to, and it's not squidly at all as far as I'm concerned.

huxtablejones, Sep 24 2006, 07:20 PM
It's faster.

Here comes the part where we argue the meaning of "legitimate".

In all likelihood it's not appreciably faster than using the clutch. The real time saver behind airshifters is the instaneous cycling of engine power. No matter how effective a wanker one might be, one's wrist can only move so fast. And the limit of your ability to flail your wrist (blisters - ahem - somewhere notwithstanding) falls pretty far short of the speed of light. Adding a quick fan of the clutch to ease the impact of the shifting process on the tranny adds very little time. If you are accomplised at clutchless shifting, you're good enough that using the clutch will cost you very little in terms of time. However, feel free to believe whatever makes you feel good. When I was young and foolish, I used to love folks experimenting/learning the art of clutchless shifting. I made good deal of $$ replacing the gears and shift forks of the folks who were determined to learn.


Back to lurk.gif lurk.gif

vfrjim2002, Sep 24 2006, 09:37 PM
When I was young and foolish, I used to love folks experimenting/learning the art of clutchless shifting. I made good deal of $$ replacing the gears and shift forks of the folks who were determined to learn.

Shrug. Not from me, dude. Never had a problem. Since I was 6 I've been riding. 20 years now. Prolly 12 different bikes.

re: making me feel good

running faster than someone on a faster bike makes me feel good. If I can spend less time than you unpowered, I can prolly make up for your additional torque or lighter bike. These days the difference between a fast bike and a slow bike can be less than a second over a quarter mile - I can make up a second or more over the time it takes to shift 5 times vs. somebody who is doing the whole roll off/squeeze clutch fully/shift/let off clutch/roll on gas thing every time. Easily. If I can save .1 second each shift that's quite easily half a second. Ditto upshifting on turn exits. You pick up a quarter second here, an eigth second there. It all counts, that's why you guys gut yer cats, get the PC's, etc, etc...I could argue that all that stuff is much more potentially damaging than quickshifting - save yer sanctimony. It's unnecessary and misguided IMO.