What Ratio Of Coolant To Water In California

My 6th gen will never see freezing temperatures here in Southern California. So what ration of antifreeze to water would be recommended since less antifreeze=cooler engine?

drb, Oct 16 2006, 09:54 PM
My 6th gen will never see freezing temperatures here in Southern California. So what ration of antifreeze to water would be recommended since less antifreeze=cooler engine?

Not sure how much but use destilled water not tap. To many minerals in tap.

drb, Oct 16 2006, 06:54 PM
My 6th gen will never see freezing temperatures here in Southern California. So what ration of antifreeze to water would be recommended since less antifreeze=cooler engine?

50/50 mix with distilled water only!! Don't use tap water.

crazybrother, Oct 16 2006, 10:07 PM
50/50 mix with distilled water only!! Don't use tap water.

50/50 is used because of the possiblity of freezing temperatures. Where I live it doesnt ever get close to freezing to I want to use more water and less anti-freeze so what ratio should I use? And I already know to use distilled water.

drb, Oct 16 2006, 10:44 PM
50/50 is used because of the possiblity of freezing temperatures. Where I live it doesnt ever get close to freezing to I want to use more water and less anti-freeze so what ratio should I use? And I already know to use distilled water.

I would assume you could use 100% water if you want. At track days they require us to use only water in the radiators in case of a crash ( avoid antifreeze getting on the track ). I use my cbr as a track only bike and keep solid water in it all the time. Not really sure the purpose of not wanting to use 50/50. I understand its less dense therefore releases heat faster or doesn't heat up as fast, but its still going to eventually hit its 230ish degrees anyway, and the bike is designed to run at those temps. I don't discredit your personal preferences, just trying to understand the logical purpose besides not spending as much money on fluids. Just curious. smile.gif

50/50 is not only due to freezing. its also to prevent boil over and a corrosion resistant.

tinyminds, Oct 16 2006, 10:52 PM
I would assume you could use 100% water if you want. At track days they require us to use only water in the radiators in case of a crash ( avoid antifreeze getting on the track ). I use my cbr as a track only bike and keep solid water in it all the time. Not really sure the purpose of not wanting to use 50/50. I understand its less dense therefore releases heat faster or doesn't heat up as fast, but its still going to eventually hit its 230ish degrees anyway, and the bike is designed to run at those temps. I don't discredit your personal preferences, just trying to understand the logical purpose besides not spending as much money on fluids. Just curious. smile.gif

Money is no object! After reading and researching for three days it is a fact that water by itself cools the engine better than water with antifreeze. I do want some protection against boiling but know that I dont need protection against freezing. So having said that a ratio with higher than 50% water would be more effecient at cooling than a 50/50 mix and running cooler especially with our hot running VFR's would be better! So I am looking for opinions or personal experience with running a different ratio. I know I can use 100% distilled water and add Water Wetter but I would still like to have some Anti-freeze in the system.

767fixer, Oct 16 2006, 11:01 PM
50/50 is not only due to freezing. its also to prevent boil over and a corrosion resistant.

I will be adding Water Wetter either way which takes care of the corrosion factor and lubrication. If someone can explain to me that more water isnt better I am happy to be educated!

Hmm, atleast you have done some research. Let me know how whatever changes you make effect temp's. Interested to see how it effects them. @ what temp does water start boiling? I know this was elementary school stuff, but, I have enough useless info in my head, some have to go.

tinyminds, Oct 16 2006, 11:10 PM
Hmm, atleast you have done some research. Let me know how whatever changes you make effect temp's. Interested to see how it effects them. @ what temp does water start boiling? I know this was elementary school stuff, but, I have enough useless info in my head, some have to go.

212 degres F but a pressurized system (radiator cap) it raises the boiling point to around 250-265.

Read the directions on the antifreeze your using make sure it does not have any silicates in it as these will ruin the rubber seals on your water pump. 70/30 is about as far as you can go, yes your more likely to boil over - however water is much more effiecent at cooling a motor down than ethyne glycol so there you go. As long as you dont have any air in the system, no blockages, thermostat is good, and the waterpump works you should be ok.

drb, Oct 17 2006, 02:44 AM
50/50 is used because of the possiblity of freezing temperatures. Where I live it doesnt ever get close to freezing to I want to use more water and less anti-freeze so what ratio should I use? And I already know to use distilled water.

For what it's worth using 100% distilled water will decrease the boiling point of your coolant, however I'm still trying to think about whether or not that would be a problem in an engine cooling system since it is not open to atmosphere. I've always thought that using distilled water to fill your radiator was not a problem as long as it didn't go below freezing so as to avoid cracking the engine block. I'm not so sure about the high temperature regime.

drb, Oct 16 2006, 11:04 PM
Money is no object! After reading and researching for three days it is a fact that water by itself cools the engine better than water with antifreeze. I do want some protection against boiling but know that I dont need protection against freezing. So having said that a ratio with higher than 50% water would be more effecient at cooling than a 50/50 mix and running cooler especially with our hot running VFR's would be better! So I am looking for opinions or personal experience with running a different ratio. I know I can use 100% distilled water and add Water Wetter but I would still like to have some Anti-freeze in the system.
I will be adding Water Wetter either way which takes care of the corrosion factor and lubrication. If someone can explain to me that more water isnt better I am happy to be educated!

as long as you run some form of anti-boil and lubricant/anti corrosion. you will likely find yourself adding water more often as that was what i found with the drag car. water wetter was legal and reduced the corrosion problem , but still did not stop the evaporative loss i was experiencing. temps were good, but still hot enough to steam/ evaporate off the water regularly.

i have heard of people using 20 % antifreeze added with water / water wetter with decent results. to me though the bike just not get hot enough even down here in florida to warrant it

At his last coolant change a friend with a '00 mistakenly mixed Honda premix coolant with distilled water. The net effect was a 75-25 water AF ratio. We discussed draining and replacing it, then looked at the freezing point chart and found that the 75-25 mix was good down to about 15F so he left it alone. It seems to run a bit cooler than before and cools down a bit quicker once it's heated up to fan cycle temp.

As for the boiling protection, the charts I've seen claim that a 50-50 mix will raise the boiling point from 100C to 106C, not a lot. If the effect is linear (it's probably not over the full range) a 75-25 should boil at 103C. However, as you noted, the vast majority of boilover resistance comes from pressurizing the system.

hope this helps.

Use distilled water plus water wetter. Directions on the water wetter bottle.

drb, Oct 17 2006, 03:13 AM
212 degres F but a pressurized system (radiator cap) it raises the boiling point to around 250-265.

The boiling point of a 50/50 mix of antifreeze/distilled water is 225F as opposed to 212F for water alone. The fact that water cools an engine more efficiently (higher heat capacity) and that the cooling system is closed to the atmosphere I think you would probably be just fine using 100% distilled water as your coolant.

Here's an info site

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ethylene-glycol-d_146.html

HispanicSlammer, Oct 16 2006, 11:18 PM
Read the directions on the antifreeze your using make sure it does not have any silicates in it as these will ruin the rubber seals on your water pump. 70/30 is about as far as you can go, yes your more likely to boil over - however water is much more effiecent at cooling a motor down than ethyne glycol so there you go. As long as you dont have any air in the system, no blockages, thermostat is good, and the waterpump works you should be ok.

My thought is to use Honda pre-mixed coolant and add distilled water to a ratio of 60%water 40% coolant and then add the Water Wetter. In theory the bike should be a little more effecient at cooling with these numbers. Would you agree?

drb, Oct 16 2006, 11:27 PM
My thought is to use Honda pre-mixed coolant and add distilled water to a ratio of 60%water 40% coolant and then add the Water Wetter. In theory the bike should be a little more effecient at cooling with these numbers. Would you agree?

Actually thinking about using the Engine Ice 40% distilled water 60% and water Wetter?

vfrqqq, Oct 16 2006, 11:24 PM
The boiling point of a 50/50 mix of antifreeze/distilled water is 225F as opposed to 212F for water alone. The fact that water cools an engine more efficiently (higher heat capacity) and that the cooling system is closed to the atmosphere I think you would probably be just fine using 100% distilled water as your coolant.

Here's an info site

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ethylene-glycol-d_146.html

100% water still ignores the corrosion issue.

767fixer, Oct 17 2006, 03:19 AM
as long as you run some form of anti-boil and lubricant/anti corrosion.

Is getting too hot really a problem? I feel like the fans would kick in and reduced the temperature before boiling became a problem. Of course that is just my gut feeling, so I could be (and probably am) totally wrong.

vfrqqq, Oct 16 2006, 11:35 PM
Is getting too hot really a problem? I feel like the fans would kick in and reduced the temperature before boiling became a problem. Of course that is just my gut feeling, so I could be (and probably am) totally wrong.

Getting too hot is a not a huge concern. If the engine runs cooler it is better for the engine and the rider. My VFR runs at the normal expected temperatures under any given circumstance but if there is a simple way for it to run cooler why not?!

drb, Oct 16 2006, 11:30 PM
Actually thinking about using the Engine Ice 40% distilled water 60% and water Wetter?

I have used Engine Ice, it works pretty well. It is premixed.

vfrqqq, Oct 16 2006, 11:35 PM

Is getting too hot really a problem? I feel like the fans would kick in and reduced the temperature before boiling became a problem. Of course that is just my gut feeling, so I could be (and probably am) totally wrong.

At the track, at the end of a 20 minute session my coolant temp is about 240-250 and I let my bike run at idle with the fan on until it gets down to 220 or less. The last few laps I start taking it easy because themps are getting close to 250. This is with Engine Ice which way out performs regular coolant as well as distilled water and water wetter.

drb, Oct 17 2006, 03:47 AM
Getting too hot is a not a huge concern. If the engine runs cooler it is better for the engine and the rider. My VFR runs at the normal expected temperatures under any given circumstance but if there is a simple way for it to run cooler why not?!

Another thing is that the fans kick in at about 225F which is only 13 degrees hotter than the boiling point, but as was mentioned before, because the system is sealed the boiling point increases. If anything you could probably just try it out and see just how hot/cool it gets under various riding/environmental conditions and how quickly/slowly it heats-up/cools-down. Worst comes to worst, you don't like the way it behaves and you drain out a bunch of water instead of having to capture it and dispose of it properly as I'm sure you and everyone else here does biggrin.gif .

vfrqqq, Oct 16 2006, 11:35 PM
Is getting too hot really a problem? I feel like the fans would kick in and reduced the temperature before boiling became a problem. Of course that is just my gut feeling, so I could be (and probably am) totally wrong.

getting too hot is not really a problem. engines do hot spot but that is why the systems are pressurized to prevent boiling and gas pockets. the issue in a warm climate (well actually anywhere) is still corrosion. aluminum by nature is a corrosive beast. (ill show you many an airplane where water layed in an area and corrosion ate up structure. (i mean ate!) acids form in cooling systems...just the nature of the beast. a anti corrosive is a must. i hope some of you can one day see a cooling system that straight water was run in. water wetter may be a cure all. i cant say i had corrosion in the 440 during rebuilds. but on a daily driver id rather have reassurance of anti corrosives i know about rather than a 5 degree drop in temperature. IMHO

767fixer, Oct 16 2006, 11:59 PM
getting too hot is not really a problem. engines do hot spot but that is why the systems are pressurized to prevent boiling and gas pockets. the issue in a warm climate (well actually anywhere) is still corrosion. aluminum by nature is a corrosive beast. (ill show you many an airplane where water layed in an area and corrosion ate up structure. (i mean ate!) acids form in cooling systems...just the nature of the beast. a anti corrosive is a must. i hope some of you can one day see a cooling system that straight water was run in. water wetter may be a cure all. i cant say i had corrosion in the 440 during rebuilds. but on a daily driver id rather have reassurance of anti corrosives i know about rather than a 5 degree drop in temperature. IMHO

I think with Water Wetter and some % of antifreeze the corrosion issue is covered.

drb, Oct 17 2006, 12:02 AM
I think with Water Wetter and some % of antifreeze the corrosion issue is covered.

Could someone also tell me when you bleed or burp the system of air do you do that with the radiator cap off and how warm do you let the engine get when you do that?

When I had the *opportunity* to replace the coolant on my 2002 due to a stuck open thermostat, I went the Water Wetter route. I used distilled water and the recommended 4-5 cap-fulls (1 oz.?) per quart of water. I pre-mixed it in a gallon jug so I can't tell you the total amounts used to refill a sixth gen. Anyway, in my experience, it made virtually no difference in the operating temperatures of the bike. It still runs 175-185 at freeway speeds, and still pops right up to 220 sitting in traffic. I believe the capacity of the cooling system is insufficient to keep the engine at a temperature below the opening point of the thermostat without the fan, or airflow from speeds above ~45mph. For what it's worth, I've yet to experience a boil-over, so I wouldn't worry about adding ethylene glycol for boil-over protection.

do any of you know what disimiliar metal corrosion is? you better trust water wetters claim or you will learn that term. i would at least perform routine litmus tests on the system.

767fixer, Oct 17 2006, 12:42 AM
do any of you know what disimiliar metal corrosion is? you better trust water wetters claim or you will learn that term. i would at least perform routine litmus tests on the system.

When two different metals are in contact and subject to a corrosive or conductive environment, there is a current flow between them.
This current flow causes the corrosion of the least corrosion-resistant (active) metal to increase and corrosion of the more corrosion-resistant (inactive) metal to decrease. Because current flow and dissimilar metals are involved, this form of corrosion is called galvanic, or two-metal corrosion. Corrosion progressively destroys the metal, causing weakness, which can lead to failure.
Is this an adequate explanation? And if so how does it apply since I am still using antifreeze at a reduced percentage in addition to Water Wetter!

Could someone also tell me when you bleed or burp the system of air do you do that with the radiator cap off and how warm do you let the engine get when you do that?

Could someone also tell me when you bleed or burp the system of air do you do that with the radiator cap off and how warm do you let the engine get when you do that?

I too live in CA but my weather up near Sacramento can be a little cold. Anyway I just did a flush on my coolant system. I bought a gallon of premixed 50/50 at the dealer. I think it was Maxima's and a gallon of distilled water. I used all of the 50/50 mix and about 30% of the distilled water. So I'm guessing I diluted my ratio to around 70/30 or there abouts. Seems to work the same for me, highway temp still around 182.

As far as burping the system I filled the system back up with the engine off. Once it was close to full I started the engine up (engine temp cold), the coolant level dropped a little and I just compensated with adding more water. Then blipped the throttle and stood the bike straight up from the kick stand (cap still off). Once it appeared to have stabilized (within about 20 seconds) I put the cap back on. If the system needs anymore it can pull it from the reserve tank.

ibAdam, Oct 17 2006, 06:48 PM
As far as burping the system I filled the system back up with the engine off. Once it was close to full I started the engine up (engine temp cold), the coolant level dropped a little and I just compensated with adding more water. Then blipped the throttle and stood the bike straight up from the kick stand (cap still off). Once it appeared to have stabilized (within about 20 seconds) I put the cap back on. If the system needs anymore it can pull it from the reserve tank.

Wouldn't it be better to burp it while over 170 degrees so the thermostat is open?

I'm not sure of a set procedure for replacing the coolant but I wouldn't want to have the cap off at 170 as the liquid would have expanded enough to where I'm guessing it would spill out.

I drained my coolant and added coolant when the bike was cold so the thermostat would have been closed. But the end result was I was able to remove and add over a gallon of coolant which is close to the capacity of the radiator so I'm guessing it was an effective way of doing it.

jeremy556, Oct 17 2006, 07:13 PM
Wouldn't it be better to burp it while over 170 degrees so the thermostat is open?

Good question anyone have answer for that one?

Does water still flow through the cylinders when the thermostat is closed?

Also when I removed the waterpump cover drain bolt the threads at the end of the bolt seem to be a little messed up, is this intentional or has anyone else seen this?

drb, Oct 17 2006, 06:38 PM
Does water still flow through the cylinders when the thermostat is closed?

Yes, it does, there is a (small) bypass line under the T-stat, off the housing and the water pump discharge goes first through the cylinders, underneath the T-stat and back to the water pump suction through said bypass line when the T-stat is closed.

When the T-stat is open, the discharge pressure/flow of the water pump will go through the cylinders, to the T-stat housing then out through the (much larger) T-stat outlet line up to the radiator(s) rather than through the (much smaller) bypass line.

drb, Oct 17 2006, 07:00 PM
Also when I removed the waterpump cover drain bolt the threads at the end of the bolt seem to be a little messed up, is this intentional or has anyone else seen this?

They may be fluted.

Does it look uniform around the last few threads on the end of the bolt and is it repeated on all of the bolts?

(jeremy556 @ Oct 17 2006, 07:13 PM)
Wouldn't it be better to burp it while over 170 degrees so the thermostat is open?

drb, Oct 17 2006, 06:38 PM
Good question anyone have answer for that one?

IIRC, most/all thermostats have a small air bleed hole in their perimeter that allows air to escape when filling the block.

Believe it or not, it's called the jiggle valve. (tee hee hee)

[image: IPB Image]

drb, Oct 17 2006, 12:56 AM
When two different metals are in contact and subject to a corrosive or conductive environment, there is a current flow between them.
This current flow causes the corrosion of the least corrosion-resistant (active) metal to increase and corrosion of the more corrosion-resistant (inactive) metal to decrease. Because current flow and dissimilar metals are involved, this form of corrosion is called galvanic, or two-metal corrosion. Corrosion progressively destroys the metal, causing weakness, which can lead to failure.
Is this an adequate explanation? And if so how does it apply since I am still using antifreeze at a reduced percentage in addition to Water Wetter!

that wasnt meant for you....it was meant for VFRggg who stated using 100% distilled water