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Big (enough) Bang Engine?

32 posts Started 25 Mar 2007 Last recovered post 25 Mar 2016 Wayback Machine snapshot 25 Jun 2021

#1

I know most of you probably have your copy of RiDE Magazine, Sept. 06 with the special on VFR.

After reading the post from "air horns" and reading my manual, then the magazine, it downed on me that we might have a variation of the Big Bang motor that made its debut in an RC30. Before I put the article down here, try to remember that:Firing order is 1-3-2-4. Then look at this: #4 and #1 firing within 90˚, while #1 and #3 is 180˚ and #3 and #2 is 270˚!!!!!!!

Ok, here's what RiDE has to say ". . . It' was because the tiny V-four motor[of the RC30] . . . had a secret. The ignition timing meant you got one big bang and then a relatively long gap before it fired again. The theory goes that this helps the rear tyre recover between pulses and improves grip and traction. The RC30 was the first 'big bang' sports bike." RiDE, Sept, 2006, p.72

Mind you the 90˚ interval is followed by the 180˚ then by the 270˚. Still, I think it's only a variation.

#2

Got the magazine, read the article, said, " Cool Stuff "

#3

Dear Stephanie

I asked Al Ludington(Miguel Duhamel's and Erik Bostroms mechanic) about that and I believe his answer was no they didn't use the big bang in the RC-45 and I believe the RC 30 has the same firing order. Honda used the big bang on their two stroke 500 GP. I could be totally wrong.

[image: gallery_3888_786_380207.jpg]

Who's that? None other than Miguel Duhamel on a VFR

#4

I'm pretty sure that the 83-85 VFs, the VF1000Rs, the RC-30, and the RC-45 are the only ones that use the "big-bang" firing order. The difference is generally called the 180 vs 360 degree crank. I couldn't tell you which is which, but the modern VFR has the one that is not as effective, but has a more V-8 like rumble. That rumble is the exact reason that it is used, afaik. Yamaha put it in the V-Max and people raved about the sound, Honda jumped ship and the VFR has been steadily gone down-hill since. :rolleyes:

The sound on my bike is less VFR like and kind of droaney. I think it's a sexy combination of and inline and a V with a torque curve that is boring to look at.

#5

The 360 degree engines are the Big Bang engines.

MTB

#6

i had no idea this was old tech, because they talked about the fact that the v4 motogp bikes will implement this technology using feedback on the wheels to allow the ecu to know the position and vary the firing of the cylinders to maximize grip along with GPS units that will change the 'maps' in the ignition to match race track conditions....

#7
ChevThe sound on my bike is less VFR like and kind of droaney. I think it's a sexy combination

:rolleyes:

#8
Baketech360 crank motors (RC30/45 et al) are not really a "Big Bang" motor...but they do have a much lumpier profile than a 180 cranked VFR... :thumbsup:

CBR - I4

000----090----180----270----360----090----180----270----360

000----090----180----270----360----450----540----630----720

-1----------------2----------------4-----------------3----------------1-

VFR - 90Deg V

000----090----180----270----360----090----180----270----360

000----090----180----270----360----450----540----630----720

-1-----------------3------------------------2----------------4--------1-

RC30 - 90Deg V

000----090----180----270----360----090----180----270----360

000----090----180----270----360----450----540----630----720

-1--------4------------------------3--------2-----------------------1-

Nice one Baketech, that's probably the most effective presentation of how the 180-vs-360 firing order works that I've seen :thumbsup: Interesting to see th I4 pattern against the V4s as well.

#9
Easy to see why they called it the "Big Bang" eh?

Holy crap! It's a Quad Twingle :idea3:

#10
Baketech360 crank motors (RC30/45 et al) are not really a "Big Bang" motor...but they do have a much lumpier profile than a 180 cranked VFR... :thumbsup:

CBR - I4

000----090----180----270----360----090----180----270----360

000----090----180----270----360----450----540----630----720

-1----------------2----------------4-----------------3----------------1-

VFR - 90Deg V

000----090----180----270----360----090----180----270----360

000----090----180----270----360----450----540----630----720

-1-----------------3------------------------2----------------4--------1-

RC30 - 90Deg V

000----090----180----270----360----090----180----270----360

000----090----180----270----360----450----540----630----720

-1--------4------------------------3--------2-----------------------1-

BaketechIt really shows why our bikes have a distinctive burble at idle... :thumbsup:

Just for fun, here's the original Big Bang...keep in mind these only show one crank rev, as they are 2-strokes...

V4 2-Stroke (90 degree motor)

000----090----180----270----360

-1-------3--------2-------4-------1-

Screamer - V4 2-Stroke (180 degree motor)

000----090----180----270----360

1&3------------2&4------------1&3

Big Bang - V4 2-Stroke

000----090----180----270----360

-1-3-2-4---------------------1-3-2-4

Easy to see why they called it the "Big Bang" eh? :goofy:

Thanks for the easy to understand lay out. I guess I was a bit mistaken. Having said that, it's because of the Big Bang engine that they probably came out with this for the street. My understanding of the Big Bang was the engine fired 2 cylinders within 70˚, then a long pause. I didn't realized that it was all 4 within 70˚ then a very long pause! That's why the RC30 doesn't really qualify as the big bang, but as a variation leading to it.

Thanks again for shading some light!

#11
Stéphane
Baketech360 crank motors (RC30/45 et al) are not really a "Big Bang" motor...but they do have a much lumpier profile than a 180 cranked VFR... :thumbsup:

CBR - I4

000----090----180----270----360----090----180----270----360

000----090----180----270----360----450----540----630----720

-1----------------2----------------4-----------------3----------------1-

VFR - 90Deg V

000----090----180----270----360----090----180----270----360

000----090----180----270----360----450----540----630----720

-1-----------------3------------------------2----------------4--------1-

RC30 - 90Deg V

000----090----180----270----360----090----180----270----360

000----090----180----270----360----450----540----630----720

-1--------4------------------------3--------2-----------------------1-

BaketechIt really shows why our bikes have a distinctive burble at idle... :thumbsup:

Just for fun, here's the original Big Bang...keep in mind these only show one crank rev, as they are 2-strokes...

V4 2-Stroke (90 degree motor)

000----090----180----270----360

-1-------3--------2-------4-------1-

Screamer - V4 2-Stroke (180 degree motor)

000----090----180----270----360

1&3------------2&4------------1&3

Big Bang - V4 2-Stroke

000----090----180----270----360

-1-3-2-4---------------------1-3-2-4

Easy to see why they called it the "Big Bang" eh? :idea3:

Thanks for the easy to understand lay out. I guess I was a bit mistaken. Having said that, it's because of the Big Bang engine that they probably came out with this for the street. My understanding of the Big Bang was the engine fired 2 cylinders within 70˚, then a long pause. I didn't realized that it was all 4 within 70˚ then a very long pause! That's why the RC30 doesn't really qualify as the big bang, but as a variation leading to it.

Thanks again for shading some light!

apparantly, everyone else is too. i have read 4 articles on this and they all keep saying big bang = 2 cylinders together like this:

"The 'Big-Bang' Superbike engine is nothing new but, although extensively tested, it has never previously been raced due to the problems caused by the two big power pulses produced. These two 'Big-Bang' pulses, within a four-cylinder engine, create a tremendous amount of stress, often leading to failure within 30 minutes."

#12
BaketechFiring cylinders together is generally known as a "Screamer" configuration....not Big Bang.... :twocents:

Thanks for all that info. I have to go back and re-read my manual. I am suddenly completely unaware of what is going on as I thought I knew and had probably re-read. I thought I had a screamer, but ohh jeeze. Knowledge never killed anyone, it just makes it hard to do homework when there are other, more interesting, things to learn about.

#13
turtlecreek"The 'Big-Bang' Superbike engine is nothing new but, although extensively tested, it has never previously been raced due to the problems caused by the two big power pulses produced. These two 'Big-Bang' pulses, within a four-cylinder engine, create a tremendous amount of stress, often leading to failure within 30 minutes."

There's an R1 racing in Australia which has been modified to use a 'big bang' firing order - they did a cut and shut on the cams, rotating one half of the cam 180 degrees to change the firing order. It now fires two cylinders at once, then the other two (sorry I'm not sure which ones are paired). It puts out similar power to other comparable R1 engines (it's not modified all that much apart from the cams) but is apparently far easier to ride hard. I think it's hanging together ok, but it's not racing at the top level so is only making 150rwhp. If they went for 180+ it would probably lunch itself.

The BSB Virgin Yamaha team did it too, but in a slightly different way in order to alleviate stresses:

http://www.crash.net/feature_view~t~Exclus...~18~id~6850.htm

BTW you can easily change the firing order of 3rd/4th Gen VFRs by lifting the front cam, spinning it laterally 180 degrees, and dropping it back in... which creates the Twin Twingle [TM] :thumbsup:

#14
BaketechFiring cylinders together is generally known as a "Screamer" configuration....not Big Bang.... :twocents:

The screamer is an even firing order engine. Google Doohan and Screamer.

V4 2-Stroke (90 degree motor)

000----090----180----270----360

-1-------3--------2-------4-------1-

All cylinders fired within 90 degrees is now called the 'long bang'.

Long Bang - I4 or V4 4-Stroke

000----090----180----270----360

-1-3-2-4---------------------1-3-2-4

Edited April 5, 2007 by rhubarb
#15

If memory serves, They learned about this idea from the Harley dirt track program. In the early eighties, and late seventies, the Japanese manufacturers wanted some of the American flat track scene. They couldn't figure out why the ancient Vs were waxing the twins and later the new Japanese V motors. Better Horsepower didn't seem to matter!

When they analyzed what H-D had going, they saw essentially an inline twin with a huge hole in the power delivery. H-D motors were run for years with the ignition firing in both cylinders simultaneously. One was early and one was late. This lumpy delivery allowed the tire to regain traction in between power pulses. A handy feature on dirt!

#16

For the members who understand Spanish, there is a discussion by Honda race engineers of the NSR500 and the Big Bang effect here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGSxjM6pfXE

I wish the original English version was available.. fascinating stuff!

Regards,

Bruckner

#17

As I understand it the Japanese domestic market NC30 and NC35 400cc VFRs also sport 360 degree firing order.

Edited May 25, 2008 by Hornhonker
#18

Mick Doohan and the Big Bang connection from the pages of MCI

magazine:

Developments of the 91 NSR 500 focused around Doohan testing a number

of designs as HRC shifted their main push behind the new up and

comer... For some while Doohan had been asking engineers to replicate

the wide power band characteristic of the RVF750 4 stroke endurance

bike, which he and Gardner had used to lead the previous summer's

Suzuka 8 Hours... HRC answer was the 2 stroke equivalent of the the 4

stroke Big Bang... technically speaking all four cylinders fried

within 70 degrees to afford the tire more time to hook up...

Consider and instant success by Gardner "Jesus, this is amazing" but

Doohan was a doubter... the 92 NSR droning big bang had a very flat

exhaust note which made it sound slow to riders... It was only during

HRC's final preseason phase that Doohan began to believe in the Big

Bang... He found little difference in lap times but the close firing

order was easier on tires and set up...

Rainey and company were in for the shock as the season kicked off...

Utilizing the Big Bangs ability to find traction where others could

not... Doohan ran away with the first four races... winning by

anything up to 28 seconds wet or dry... The Big Bang proved such a

giant leap forward that rival factories Cagiva, Suzuki, Yamaha rushed

to build copies... having learned the NRS's secret by playing track

side audio recording against an oscilloscope...

There could be no doubt now... Honda now had the best 500 on the grid

by quite some margin... the big bang NRS proved to be a winner in a

variety of hands... Since the 80 when engine HP dramatically

outstripped tire and chassis performance... GP teams had been hiring

tail sliding dirt trackers form America and Australia because no one

else could wrestle these monsters into submission...

Honda only raced the big bang 360º crank... and every V4 they produced

was big bang... but that all changed in 86 with the 180º V4 crank...

Honda was loosing marketing shares to the inline and they split the

crank throws 180 apart to change the pitch from a drone to a scream...

this move sold more V4s but it also muted the drive out of the

corners... you'd have to compare a your 180 5th Gen VFR with an 360

RC45 to get my point... they are basically the same engine except with

regard to crank throws...

Technically speaking 360 means all 4 crank throws rotate together in

one 360º circle whereas the 180 means the 4 crank throws are split

180º apart... it's independent with regard to the 90º cylinder

angle...

I think Honda should design the next Gen VFR without the silly Vtec

and adopt the visceral 360º big bang crank of their race bred V4s...

RC45 360º big bang crank...

[image: 300301472_f10330b1db_o.jpg]

VFR 180º little bang crank...

[image: 300301473_befa4c04a7_o.jpg]

#19
BusyLittleShopVFR 180º little bang crank...

[image: 300301473_befa4c04a7_o.jpg]

I like my widdo bang :biggrin:

good read about the development. the whole theory about allowing the back tire time to rest and "plant" itself before being hit by power is interesting.

#20
thereisnospoonI like my widdo bang :biggrin:

good read about the development. the whole theory about allowing the back tire time to rest and "plant" itself before being hit by power is interesting.

It's interesting to note the difference on an unspecting rider's seat of the pants... like my

friend Andrew who normally rides an S3Triumph Triple...

"It was time to trade bikes! I took off on the Mr.RC45. OMG. The RC45

is amazing. It feels nothing like a VFR motor (Which I don't think is

anything special, anyhow.) The RC45 motor is amazing, smooth, torquey,

not at all lumpy like I think of the VFR. Larry may have converted me to

a V4 aficionado."

#21

Any idea what is the firing interval of new Honda VFR 1200F engine with 76 deg block and split angle crank?

#22
gengnepal

Any idea what is the firing interval of new Honda VFR 1200F engine with 76 deg block and split angle crank?

It's a lot like 2 offset crankpin 750 shadow motors siamesed together. The firing order is modified to 1-2-4-3. The cylinders fire in pairs 28' apart like 2 v-twins. Honda has a great little animation of how it works on one of the V4 hype sutes... can't remember where.

#23
phobe
gengnepal

Any idea what is the firing interval of new Honda VFR 1200F engine with 76 deg block and split angle crank?

It's a lot like 2 offset crankpin 750 shadow motors siamesed together. The firing order is modified to 1-2-4-3. The cylinders fire in pairs 28' apart like 2 v-twins. Honda has a great little animation of how it works on one of the V4 hype sutes... can't remember where.

It's actually the journals that are physically 28' apart to achieve primary balance of the 76' V-angle...

The firing sequence is 104-256-104-256.

000----090----180----270----360----090----180----270----360

-1-----------2-----------------------4-----------3----------------------1-

The animation is on the main Honda site... :fing02:

Edited November 23, 2009 by Baketech
#24

Thanks,Baketech. Fully understood. Almost like RC30 interval.

#25
gengnepal

Almost like RC30 interval.

Very similar... :fing02:

It's an elegant solution I think. A more compact engine, with a "gruntier" power delivery profile... :wub:

#26
Baketech
phobe
gengnepal

Any idea what is the firing interval of new Honda VFR 1200F engine with 76 deg block and split angle crank?

It's a lot like 2 offset crankpin 750 shadow motors siamesed together. The firing order is modified to 1-2-4-3. The cylinders fire in pairs 28' apart like 2 v-twins. Honda has a great little animation of how it works on one of the V4 hype sutes... can't remember where.

It's actually the journals that are physically 28' apart to achieve primary balance of the 76' V-angle...

The firing sequence is 104-256-104-256.

000----090----180----270----360----090----180----270----360

-1-----------2-----------------------4-----------3----------------------1-

The animation is on the main Honda site... :wheel:

I thought "crankpins" referred to the big end journals. Have I got my terminology screwed up?

#27
phobe

I thought "crankpins" referred to the big end journals. Have I got my terminology screwed up?

Nope you aren't mistaken, crankpins = rod journals....but that's just the physical arrangement of the crank itself...

When stroked through a V-angle of 76 degrees, that yields a 104'-256' firing sequence.

*(76+28=104)

Edited November 23, 2009 by Baketech
#28
Baketech

Nope you aren't mistaken, crankpins = rod journals....but that's just the physical arrangement of the crank itself...

When stroked through a V-angle of 76 degrees, that yields a 104'-256' firing sequence.

*(76+28=104)

Ah ok makes sense now. I can't wait to ride one... I can't remember the exact figures but they were saying it makes something like 90% of its torque by 4000rpm. That'll be one grunty sumbitch.

I bet it'll power wheelie like my dad's St1300... :wheel:

#29
phobe

I can't wait to ride one...

Ditto...

After getting the chance to give an RC30 the beans last summer, I'm really looking forward to seeing how the lumpier firing feels on the liter bike... :comp13:

Edited November 23, 2009 by Baketech
#32

Doing my usual - resurrecting an old thread, but it is an interesting topic.

As has now been pointed out, a 'screamer' is a more even firing order, whereas 'big bang' means lumped close together. The latter used to mean more than one cylinder firing together, but now as was pointed out, it can mean just close together.

Honda have used 360° AND 180° configurations on their V4s, the former being oft referred to as 'big bang', but I've not heard the latter being called 'screamer'. In either case, they're not totally true to the name, whereas when Ducati entered MotoGP with their Desmosedici, they did try a real 'big bang' with pairs of pistons firing together, so rather like a V-twin, but with each leg of the V actually 2 pistons and cylinders, moving and firing together. So a 360° crank and firing as a real 'big bang'. Ultimately not successful and apparently had a tendency to throw its motors into pieces. I don't think they ever raced it.

It was tried with an R1 in British SuperBikes, but I think Yamaha nixed that when they introduced their 'cross plane' crank.

An easy engine to make into a 'big bang' was the CBX1000. Each camshaft was in 2 halves, split in the middle with an Oldham coupling driving them together. It was of course just a matter of installing the second camshaft halves 180° from how they were supposed to be installed. With wasted spark ignition, nothing else needed to be done. I did hear of someone who did it by mistake and said it ran very rough, but then I also heard that it was tried by some teams in racing. I never tried it, I liked the CBX the way it was intended.

While looking into the crank angle used by Honda over the years, I have come across some information that I consider inaccurate, concerning V engines. One particular video clearly implying that the engine balance of a V8 is down to each bank being balanced in itself, whereas in fact, it can be wildly out of balance without problem since balance is attained by each V pair. Let me explain:-

In a single cylinder engine, the piston dashing up and down would create a terrible balance problem. Just thrust one fist up and down and feel how it shakes the rest of your body. The answer to this is balance weights on the crank. So at the top and bottom of the stroke, the force of the piston changing direction is balanced by the balance weight on the crank pulling in the opposite direction. If those 2 forces are equal (by adjusting the balance weight - i.e. balancing the crank), that is perfect PRIMARY balance and stated as a 'balance factor' of 100%. But there's a problem...

We have perfect balance at TDC and BDC of our single cylinder engine, but what about when the piston is half way up or down the bore. At this point, there is NO force exerted by the piston, but the crank is now at 90° from T/BDC and that balance weight is exerting just as much force as at T/BDC, that cannot change. So all we've done is change the terrible up down vibration due to the piston to a sideways vibration of the same magnitude, because of that counterbalance weight, which at the 90° position of the crank has nothing to balance it out. This is secondary vibration and in this case we have zero secondary balance.

So the balance factor of a simple engine like this is usually chosen to be something like 60% or 70% or something close that gives the best compromise of primary and secondary balance, but however you look at it, it's a shitty result. Put 2 of these cylinders side by side, operating together, with nice smooth evenly spaced power pulses and you've just made the balance situation worse. Well done all the British bike manufacturers who foisted those jackhammers on us for so many years. Honda realised that uneven power pulses was not really a problem and used a 180° crank for their twins so the pistons were not going up and down together and you get a much better balanced engine. Mind you, that didn't have anything to do with them also being oil tight.

Bear in mind that ANY form of 'out of balance' vibration can be mollified or even eliminated with the use of balance shafts or reciprocating weights which can be designed to throw weights around exactly as required to keep a motor smooth. But let's just ignore those for now.

But what about V engines I hear you ask, they must be very difficult to balance. Nope. A 90° V has PERFECT primary and secondary balance. Here's how:-

Go back to the single cylinder example with the counterbalance weight on the crank providing perfect primary balance but no secondary balance at all at 90°. What we need is some form of balance weight whose effect varies as the piston goes up and down, so we get balance at T/BDC, but also half way up. Something that acts just like our piston but 90° away. Hmm, what about another cylinder and piston at 90° from the first one. With a 100% balance factor we have perfect primary balance for each piston, but the secondary imbalance of each piston is now completely balanced by the other piston. So a 90° V provides perfect primary AND secondary balance. It's a great configuration for an engine.

Of course a horizontally opposed (Boxer) engine can provide the same perfect primary and secondary balance without any counterbalance weights on the crank. But we always need some weight there to smooth out the power pulses etc anyway, so both engine configurations are very good for mechanical balance, whereas any in-line engine is in trouble with no way to avoid it completely without using balance shafts.

For both the V and the Boxer, it is each adjacent pair of pistons, that balance each other. The relative position of the other pairs is largely irrelevant. So our V4s might have a 180° crank where each pair is half a rotation away from the other, or 360° where the 2 pairs are side by side. This is usually termed 360° apart but of course could be termed 0° (although due to firing order etc the former is more applicable overall). As far as crank balance is concerned, you could have any angle between the pairs.

So if these engines are perfectly balanced, why do we feel any vibration at all? Well, not everything is balanced. Cams for example are lumps of metal flying around with nothing to balance them out and generally throwing lumps of metal around at such a speed, it would be very hard to eliminate vibration entirely. Think about it, at 10K rpm, the piston is changing direction at 300 times per second. You try and count that fast.

There is also the problem of 'rocking couple'. With each power pulse hitting the crank, unless these are evenly spaced along the crank, it can cause the crank to try and rock slightly. Obviously it cannot actually move so this translates as a vibration. If power pulses could occur simultaneously on either side of the centre of the crank, we could avoid these couples, but for other reasons of balance that's not really practical, so we have to put up with this rocking couple which fortunately is minor compared to the piston and crank balance described above.

So finally, what about about 'cross plane' cranks. As is easy to read elsewhere, these look like a cross when viewed from the end and breaks up the firing pulses into an uneven order. For an in-line 4, it also requires the use of balance weights as decent primary and secondary balance is otherwise impossible to obtain, but for a V8 it doesn't really matter as each crankpin has 2 conrods and pistons attached and they balance each other out as explained above. So each crankpin could be at almost any angle relative to the others, but in practice either flat (like a typical in-line 4) or cross plane (at 90° to each other) are used.

So that's what a cross plane IS, but why? Well there's been almost as much guff talked about this as there has been about radial brakes. There was much talk about a V engine giving better traction due to the longer interval between some power pulses allowing the tyre to regain grip. This always seemed like nonsense to me. We're talking in thousands of a second here and rubber just don't move that fast. What has now become apparent is that it's more to do with vibration. If rubber is vibrating, it is less able to grip and evenly spaced power pulses can set up a harmonic oscillation in the rubber that causes sufficient vibration to reduce grip. But the uneven spacing of the power pulses of e.g. a V engine prevents any such harmonic, which reduces the vibration and allows more grip. Yamaha's cross plane crank in their in-line 4s does this. The uneven power pulses allowing the same grip levels as the V engines.

There are now several examples of cross plane twins (270° cranks), like Yamaha's Super Tenere, Honda's new Africa Twin and Triumph's new 1200s among others, but whether that is for any supposed enhanced grip or just because they sound cool is anyone's guess. But annoyingly Yamaha have started applying the term 'cross plane' to their 3 cylinder engines which just use traditional 120° cranks. So a case of marketing triumphing over the facts I think.

So that's it. Whether your VFR would provide greater grip if it had a 360° crank is a mute point, for 2 reasons. 1, you're stuck with it and 2, you'd never notice on the road. Realistically, the only difference is the sound and all the above configurations with their different power pulse intervals will sound different. To each their own. Personally I like the sound of a V4. Any V4 will do.

Anyway, hope this is of some help. If not, sorry I bored you.

End of thread · 32 posts recovered Wayback Machine snapshot 25 Jun 2021