Well, after much debate with myself (also been experimenting with two other VFRs I lowered, and looking at my notes from my lowered 06), I decided yesterday was the big day for "squiding" mine and adding my Red bead Sargent seat. I finally ended up with the rear lowered 3/4" from stock, and the front a full 1"........ fing02.gif
I'm 5' 7" by 165 lbs, and this is what I ended up with.....3 rings showing on my front pre-load adjusters, rear is turned down to the lowest pre-load. Bike has 1/4" more nose pitch than a stock VFR now. Bike rides and handles as well and plush as stock now with a tick more turn-in. I ran Monteagle Mountain up and down the Pelham and Cowan side yesterday in the 45 to 70+ MPH range, and the bike worked perfect.............. fing02.gif
I cut exactly 1/2" out of the kickstand and re-welded it to get the stock lean back.....flat footed, with very slight knee bend at traffic lights, and can push it backwards uphill.......... smile.gif
See Ya', skuuter................. fing02.gif beer.gif
I lowered my '04 by rotating the shock "triangle" link and raising the fork tubes in the same manner as Skuuter, and with the addition of Avon Storm tires,(really good!) the bike corners like no other. For reference, I have a CBR1000RR with Pilot Powers. It's that good. Never scraped anything, and while I'm not the fastest guy out there, I assure you I'm far from slow. I highly recommend this mod.
To answer questions.......SAG: front--28 MM rear--32MM........panic-stop-stoppies (almost lifted the rear tire) couldn't make the fork bottom....also rode over Post Office speed bumps way too fast, no touchdown.
My bikes have to be very functional first. I ride way too much, and too many trips and long miles for me not to make sure this works as well or better than stock..........for a person my size this will work for Ya' or I wouldn't have posted it........ fing02.gif
I've been seriously considering this mod but have been very hesitant to do it. This would be my first attempt at lowering a bike. I'm in the same situation as you. I'm inseem challenged too. I read about others doing this mod. I have an 07 VFR and i am on the balls of my feet when stopped. I feel kinda nervous about dropping the bike if Im on a slight incline or a similar situation. If i misadjusted the front and rear I wouldnt really be about to tell if the perfomance of my bike was comprimised. I'd hate to change something and then find the setup was bad which may cause me to lose control and crash. I'm wondering what your setup is exactly so I can duplicate it. I too am 5'7". I would love to be close to flatfooted. I'm not familiar with the term front and rear sag. From what i can tell to adjust the front you have to lower the fork tubes. I have the manual so I think i could handle that. And the triangle in the rear seems pretty easy. but what do you set the preload and compression rate's. I weigh 190. so i think mine would be a little different than yours. Can you tell me what you did exactly to your preset and compression. I understand the preload is adjusted by turning the rear spring. Is this correct? and then how many turns is the black knob turned from completely counterclockwise? If anyone else has done this I'd appreciate any other recommendations. Skuuter I can tell you've put alot of miles on motorcyles and would greatly appreciate any advise...
I've been seriously considering this mod but have been very hesitant to do it. This would be my first attempt at lowering a bike. I'm in the same situation as you. I'm inseem challenged too. I read about others doing this mod. I have an 07 VFR and i am on the balls of my feet when stopped. I feel kinda nervous about dropping the bike if Im on a slight incline or a similar situation. If i misadjusted the front and rear I wouldnt really be about to tell if the perfomance of my bike was comprimised. I'd hate to change something and then find the setup was bad which may cause me to lose control and crash. I'm wondering what your setup is exactly so I can duplicate it. I too am 5'7". I would love to be close to flatfooted. I'm not familiar with the term front and rear sag. From what i can tell to adjust the front you have to lower the fork tubes. I have the manual so I think i could handle that. And the triangle in the rear seems pretty easy. but what do you set the preload and compression rate's. I weigh 190. so i think mine would be a little different than yours. Can you tell me what you did exactly to your preset and compression. I understand the preload is adjusted by turning the rear spring. Is this correct? and then how many turns is the black knob turned from completely counterclockwise? If anyone else has done this I'd appreciate any other recommendations. Skuuter I can tell you've put alot of miles on motorcyles and would greatly appreciate any advise...
Cheers?
OK, first of all, if you don't exceed my lowering, you won't be in a "danger zone" because of simply lowering the bike. This is the second VFR of my own that I've lowered (rode the first over 15,000 miles after lowering it...quite a bit of GIVI-Box-Loaded 2-up riding with my Wife even), and have lowered 3 others belonging to friends for my own experimental purposes.... fing02.gif This one is actually 1/4" lower in the front than my first, allowing me to run a softer rear setting for more weight transfer on the throttle, and a tick more turn-in on the steering.
Now, that being said, the 190 lbs is enough weight difference to make a small adjustment in my settings. This would be my starting point. (1) Flip the triangle (the arrow should be to the back and pointing up on both sides)...this will give you a 3/4" drop on on the rear. (2) Take measurements, and pull the fork tubes up through the trees to also achieve a 3/4" drop in the front. (3) cut 3/8" off the kickstand and re-weld (cut below the peg you use to flip the stand down with your boot). This is the setting with stock adjustments I used on my first bike, then made small adjustments there after to suit me.
SAG is the difference your bike sinks when you sit on it, versus standing alone (use the search feature). Having done this a lot, and factoring in your size, you'll have plenty of SAG if you leave all your adjustments at factory settings, and simply do the (3) steps above to lower the bike............ fing02.gif NOTE: a simple way (I have bike stands now instead) to lower the front is measure, then put hose clamps tightly around the tubes, loosen the lower triple clamp bolts, then the uppers. The bike's lower tree will drop to where you put the hose clamps as stops.
Biggest aggravation for me on VFRs without lowering is they're hard to push backwards in parking lots uphill, or put a foot into rutted out intersection dips that are greasy (Knoxville comes to mind.... dry.gif )...not a good situation. Some of the handling will actually be enhanced by the new lower center of gravity...slow speed, parking lots, continuous transition tight twisties..... fing02.gif
GOOD LUCK, and check back if you have a problem.....glad to help............ fing02.gif
Hi Skutter Love your Anniversary Edition, Would any of the other VFR's you've lowered perchance be a 4th GEN? I've got a '97 and even after all the reading on this wonderful site, I'm not sure I can do the shock link flip on it or not. I'm just looking to lower it 1 inch at most. thanks for sharing your knowledge.
okay I'm going to attempt this mod tomorrow. I talked to a welder about cutting 3/8 off the kickstand to maintain the right lean angle. He said he was willing to look at but he expressed a concern on what kind of material it was made of. He said if it was cast iron or something like that he said he wouldn't want to atttempt it because he said it would have the possibility of breaking off.. I told him i respect his concern and I would ask around on here what you guys are doing. Are you worried about it snapping off? thats 500 lbs. leaning on that single weld. What type of metal is it and what type of welding did you use. Ascetiline and oxygen or a mig or tig. im not a welder Im just trying to explain to you what he said. He wanted me to ask around. what type of stick did you use? if you could take a picture of the final weld or kickstand I would really appreciate it...
okay I'm going to attempt this mod tomorrow. I talked to a welder about cutting 3/8 off the kickstand to maintain the right lean angle. He said he was willing to look at but he expressed a concern on what kind of material it was made of. He said if it was cast iron or something like that he said he wouldn't want to atttempt it because he said it would have the possibility of breaking off.. I told him i respect his concern and I would ask around on here what you guys are doing. Are you worried about it snapping off? thats 500 lbs. leaning on that single weld. What type of metal is it and what type of welding did you use. Ascetiline and oxygen or a mig or tig. im not a welder Im just trying to explain to you what he said. He wanted me to ask around. what type of stick did you use? if you could take a picture of the final weld or kickstand I would really appreciate it...
Plain old mild steel.....7014 rod on a Lincoln "stick" welder set on 105 amps......pour in like butter. You got one "really technical" welder there.......... rolleyes.gif A mig will do fine also. My 'stick" was easier to get to at the time because I had used it on a wrecker repair earlier.......... fing02.gif A 1/2" cut off will give you just a little more tilt and stability if you only lower each end the 3/4"............ fing02.gif GOOD LUCK......hope you enjoy the results.......... beer.gif
Mr. Smarty Pants up here is doing his best to convince people you should NEVER lower a motorcycle from it's stock height dry.gif maybe he should just stick to outbraking ABS on any surface
SAFE-T, Jul 25 2008, 12:35 PMMr. Smarty Pants up here is doing his best to convince people you should NEVER lower a motorcycle from it's stock height dry.gif maybe he should just stick to outbraking ABS on any surface
Some of us like to stop without someone else having to hold the bike up............ biggrin.gif Lowering a bike (there are exceptions) rarely presents problems in handling that can't be solved. The 6th Gen VFR (IMO) represents one of the easiest and best to work with because of the relatively short triangle, and link. If you flip the triangle, it only changes the shock angle by about 5 degrees, and the swingarm by about 8 degrees. I would dare say "MOST" riders won't feel a lot of difference in handling.
Dropping the front makes a more subtle change in handling by giving the bike a quicker turn-in......raising the rear does the same to a certain degree also. My recommendations here are from personal useage and experimentation. I wouldn't even bother to post this unless it has worked well for me without problems and issues. I'm also quick to point out my size, preference for a quick-turning bike, and have been riding a lot of years. All are factors.............. fing02.gif beer.gif
3 of 4 folks that were PMing me today with questions while they lowered their bikes have checked back in with positive ride results......waiting on one more ride report.............. fing02.gif
Next week, we'll move on to "stretching our swing arms", then the week after "fat rear tires"................ goofy.gif
canib, Jul 25 2008, 04:12 PMWow, that front wheel looks like it's really tucked in there.
Thanks for the notes Skuuter. I'm 5'12", but was considering some 'mild' lowering to make it easier to ride in the stop-and-go of Vegas traffic.
I probably need to take a "less-shadowy" picture up in the day.....not quite as bad as it looks. I went 1/4" lower on the front this time than my previous VFR (more front pitch) to give the same "feel" as raising the rear. I'm running more pre-load than on my 06 in the front, less in the rear.........so far, I'm really enjoying the result. More miles, more saddle time will let me know if I need to "fine-tune" some more, but it's not looking like it............... fing02.gif
Figure I better give a ride report thanks to Skuuter helping me out with the adjustments. I went for a little ride and It felt very nice. Felt more planted and the center of gravity sure did change. I'm a relatively new rider so I havent even come close to pushing the limits of this machine. I think ill keep it this way.. Thanks again all. I still have to weld up my kickstand... Maybe tomorrow. Next up is homebrew fender eliminator!!!!!!
gsdfriendly, Jul 25 2008, 04:44 PMFigure I better give a ride report thanks to Skuuter helping me out with the adjustments. I went for a little ride and It felt very nice. Felt more planted and the center of gravity sure did change. I'm a relatively new rider so I havent even come close to pushing the limits of this machine. I think ill keep it this way.. Thanks again all. I still have to weld up my kickstand... Maybe tomorrow. Next up is homebrew fender eliminator!!!!!!
Glad it worked out for Ya'............... fing02.gif
Might I suggest this from Kanadian Ken...not expensive, fits perfect, really fine product......
SAFE-T, Jul 25 2008, 12:35 PMMr. Smarty Pants up here is doing his best to convince people you should NEVER lower a motorcycle from it's stock height dry.gif maybe he should just stick to outbraking ABS on any surface
Some of us like to stop without someone else having to hold the bike up............ biggrin.gif Lowering a bike (there are exceptions) rarely presents problems in handling that can't be solved. The 6th Gen VFR (IMO) represents one of the easiest and best to work with because of the relatively short triangle, and link. If you flip the triangle, it only changes the shock angle by about 5 degrees, and the swingarm by about 8 degrees. I would dare say "MOST" riders won't feel a lot of difference in handling.
Just want to add that the holes in the triangle are not equidistant, which is why this works in the first place to lower the bike. Therefore you're not only changing the ride height and the resultant change in angle of the shock and the swingarm(the shock can be upside down and backwards and still work the same), the problem is that you're changing the ratio of compression that the swingarm has on the shock.
I can't comment on the affect this has on the handling of the bike at any level of riding pace, as I have never and will never use this method to lower a bike, I just want the information to be out there for people to read.
We've got over 10,000 members here, and a lot of us do enjoy pushing the bikes and doing trackdays, I'm not so sure "most" wouldn't notice a difference. Just the sacrifice of ground clearance alone gives me the willies.
A little "do this at your own risk" blanket statement might be prudent here...
SAFE-T, Jul 25 2008, 12:35 PMMr. Smarty Pants up here is doing his best to convince people you should NEVER lower a motorcycle from it's stock height dry.gif maybe he should just stick to outbraking ABS on any surface
Some of us like to stop without someone else having to hold the bike up............ biggrin.gif Lowering a bike (there are exceptions) rarely presents problems in handling that can't be solved. The 6th Gen VFR (IMO) represents one of the easiest and best to work with because of the relatively short triangle, and link. If you flip the triangle, it only changes the shock angle by about 5 degrees, and the swingarm by about 8 degrees. I would dare say "MOST" riders won't feel a lot of difference in handling.
Just want to add that the holes in the triangle are not equidistant, which is why this works in the first place to lower the bike. Therefore you're not only changing the ride height and the resultant change in angle of the shock and the swingarm(the shock can be upside down and backwards and still work the same), the problem is that you're changing the ratio of compression that the swingarm has on the shock.
I can't comment on the affect this has on the handling of the bike at any level of riding pace, as I have never and will never use this method to lower a bike, I just want the information to be out there for people to read.
We've got over 10,000 members here, and a lot of us do enjoy pushing the bikes and doing trackdays, I'm not so sure "most" wouldn't notice a difference. Just the sacrifice of ground clearance alone gives me the willies.
A little "do this at your own risk" blanket statement might be prudent here...
Total ground height clearance is only changed by 3/4" at the very center of the bike, which translates to less than that amount at peg, header, etc. touchdown. Extending your pegs downward with BLS's kit on a stock bike will get you "touchdown" much sooner. I also put in earlier the "more progressive effect" the shock's changed angle results in. At only a 5 degree angle change, and an 8 degree swingarm change in it's starting point, very little you changed anything. The triangle you just formed only has a total suspension change of 3 degrees.....some wear in bushings anywhere in the assembly would affect it this much.
Now...the frontend. This is where you are gonna' affect the bike's handling characteristics the most. When you lower the front by raising the fork tubes you have added static resting weight to the frontend, you have taken weight transfer percentages away from the back, you have made the front to rear weight percentages go up to the front, you have changed the wheelbase and trail. The front of my bike is more radically changed than I suggested (even in PMs today) to everyone else. I've done a lot of this stuff for a long time, having even built suspension components from scratch for race cars that went off into corners at 170+ MPH for 400 to 500 miles. If I were going to get on a race track, I would have no need to lower a bike...not gonna' stop for traffic lights, park in an uphill space, etc. The higher speeds, useage of the whole track width, etc. will dictate I'm looking for travel and transfer.....lotsa' both. On the street my VFR is supposed to stay in one lane that uses only half the given useage area, so my speed is already drastically cut in comparison. I have rutted out, greasy areas at intersections, gravel parking lots and roads, etc., etc., etc.
If flipping the triangle on a 6th Gen VFR is the route taken to lower it, and the frontend is lowered to the same changed rear height (I do not recommend "MY" frontend set up for everyone), the bike will work as well as stock or better, with an even more planted feel to it because of the slightly lowered center of gravity. With a larger inseam number, I wouldn't have lowered mine. It is a reasonable solution to a "unique to shorter riders" problem. My other VFR was ridden over 15,000 miles with no problems after using the same method (also a lot of loaded 2-up riding). The first one I lowered for someone here has well over 30,000 miles since then...a lot of that with loaded hard boxes (just got back from out in the Northwestern states). Anyone wanting/needing to do this is at their own judgement call anyway...but (IMO) it works well for it's intended purpose............... fing02.gif
Put some miles on the machine today and yesterday and it seems to perform well. Im sticking with it... For now. Had the kickstand shortened too.. Also did My own fender eliminator. That looks nice and cant beat the price..........Free.... I do have a question though.. Seems some people think if you change anything from stock suspension you putting your life at risk and the whole bike will implode....Rather unnerving but its a balancing act.. Do I risk dumping the bike and fallilng into traffic or some other thing or do I do the mod and monitor the results... I choose the latter.. Anyway I realize I have the final decision whether to lower or not. Anyway.. You said you do not recommend your Setup to anyone? Is that for legal reasons or is it very hazardous to do. And what is included in that just the triangle flip and tube forks or does that include the sag and preload and compression rebound advice?
Put some miles on the machine today and yesterday and it seems to perform well. Im sticking with it... For now. Had the kickstand shortened too.. Also did My own fender eliminator. That looks nice and cant beat the price..........Free.... I do have a question though.. Seems some people think if you change anything from stock suspension you putting your life at risk and the whole bike will implode....Rather unnerving but its a balancing act.. Do I risk dumping the bike and fallilng into traffic or some other thing or do I do the mod and monitor the results... I choose the latter.. Anyway I realize I have the final decision whether to lower or not. Anyway.. You said you do not recommend your Setup to anyone? Is that for legal reasons or is it very hazardous to do. And what is included in that just the triangle flip and tube forks or does that include the sag and preload and compression rebound advice?
Thanks,..
Flipping the triangle and lowering the frontend the same amount is no big deal. Main thing I don't recommend is lowering the front like I did on mine this time (did some front pitch, front stiffening, rear softening that I wanted to try). As a footnote about ride height: We measured a bone stock 07 Red VFR with it's 248 lbs rider sitting on it, and mine with my 165 lbs. sitting on it. Mine has 1/4" higher ride height than his "loaded". I noticed at T-Mac this year how low some of the bikes were with their owners on them. I've also looked at Killboy pics of my lowered Black 06 in relation to some of the stock height VFRs owned by larger riders.......they're closer to the road than I am. My other adjustments have been changed from stock, but very hard to suggest compression/rebound, etc. for others. Same with SAG, (IMO)......a brand new off the floor VFR with me on the stock settings barely has 15 MM of SAG. I have to back everything off and ride the crap out of it to soften the spring rate some before I can even begin to get decent amounts. Rode this one a lot with weights in saddlebags, tailbag, and tankbag for a while during the week........ biggrin.gif As per one of the PMs I sent you, you can check your SAG, but given your size, and others I've lowered here, it will be fine. I rode mine a lot Saturday pretty aggressively (even in pouring rain), and it works great.
Stock bike set-ups and ride heights vary a lot from bike to bike. My 250 Ninja has the highest, and the Gold Wing has less ground clearance right now than my VFR. The VFR's stock settings are not "magical numbers", and shock angles, etc. actually deviate more than on the Little Ninja through it's travel cycle. Actually of all the sport bikes I've owned and checked, My 2001 CBR929RR was the most consistent through it's travel than any of them. Enjoy your bike, and enjoy the new "Feet-Down-On-The-Street" confidence......."VFRs don't "implode" from flipped triangles"......... fing02.gif
skuuter trash, Jul 28 2008, 10:41 AMI have to back everything off and ride the crap out of it to soften the spring rate some before I can even begin to get decent amounts.
And with flipping the triangle that is just what you are effectively doing as for the same amount of wheel travel the spring will be compressed less. No problem for you leprechauns, as like you said you only weigh about 165lbs.
Still, what SEBSPEED writes is very valid as the changed ratio also affects damping. And it is not so much the changed angle of the shock that affect the ratio but more, like he says, the triangle not having equal sides (if it did, there would be no point in flipping it in the first place).
SEBSPEED, Jul 26 2008, 12:03 AMJust want to add that the holes in the triangle are not equidistant, which is why this works in the first place to lower the bike. Therefore you're not only changing the ride height and the resultant change in angle of the shock and the swingarm(the shock can be upside down and backwards and still work the same), the problem is that you're changing the ratio of compression that the swingarm has on the shock.
Due to the changed ratio, the compression and rebound damping are efectively less than what Honda intended. Again because of you weighing a bit less than the average rider that may not be a problem but if your weight is not below avarage, there are better was to lower a VFR.
skuuter trash, Jul 28 2008, 10:41 AMI have to back everything off and ride the crap out of it to soften the spring rate some before I can even begin to get decent amounts.
And with flipping the triangle that is just what you are effectively doing as for the same amount of wheel travel the spring will be compressed less. No problem for you leprechauns, as like you said you only weigh about 165lbs.
Still, what SEBSPEED writes is very valid as the changed ratio also affects damping. And it is not so much the changed angle of the shock that affect the ratio but more, like he says, the triangle not having equal sides (if it did, there would be no point in flipping it in the first place).
SEBSPEED, Jul 26 2008, 12:03 AMJust want to add that the holes in the triangle are not equidistant, which is why this works in the first place to lower the bike. Therefore you're not only changing the ride height and the resultant change in angle of the shock and the swingarm(the shock can be upside down and backwards and still work the same), the problem is that you're changing the ratio of compression that the swingarm has on the shock.
Due to the changed ratio, the compression and rebound damping are efectively less than what Honda intended. Again because of you weighing a bit less than the average rider that may not be a problem but if your weight is not below avarage, there are better was to lower a VFR.
I've lowered other bikes with shorter shocks, raising the shock, different links, etc........but, the VFR is the least affected one I've ever worked on simply because the shock is very slightly canted, the triangle difference fom hole to hole is very minimal, and the geometrics of the swingarm, shock, and linkage changes more than anything I've worked on out of all my sport bikes (short for "VERY INCONSISTENT THROUGH THE FULL RANGE OF TRAVEL"). I'll also agree that the damping is less...but...in essence you have also made a "stiffer spring" because of the 5 degree rear angle gain.
I understand everything SEB said, and he's right to a point...even more so if we start lowering VFRs for 240 lbs. riders, but, if it's done for short, light or reasonable weight riders, the VFR lends itself real well to lowering. Borrow a "slider" (shock replacement) from a dirt track race car team and bolt it on in place of the shock, and check the change in the shock / swingarm angles in relation to the centerpoint of the wheel (CBR929RR is the best I've ever personally checked for no variance through the travel arc). A CBR will suffer a lot more from 1/2" of lowering than a VFR will after 1.5". I put a Metisse kit on for a friend last week and it was lowered 1.5" (way more than I want, and with a different dogbone link instead of the triangle). The bike still rode and handled well, just not near enough ground clearance for the real world.
Changing the dogbone link affects the bike a lot more than the triangle. The triangle on the VFR is so compact, I still stand behind my statement that it works, and works well with no ill affects unless you're already "squashing" your suspension. The standard height, and suspension geometry the VFR comes with are not magical numbers that have to be adhered to, or every motorcycle made would come with the same length shock, same angles, same ride height, same rake, trail, etc. It mostly depended on which engineer was in charge of which project and model................ rolleyes.gif
See Ya', skuuter................. fing02.gif beer.gif
Hiya Skuuter.. (left that one pic in coz its awesome..) That is an awesome lowering job, I would like the full spec if you would be nice enough to let me have them.. I'm a heavy weight @ 5' 8" & 220lbs (legacy of enforced extended R&R) and can almost stand flat footed. I have the rear preload set but still need to set the front sag..
Also, somewhere about there are Res caps with VFR (6 gen style) engraved into them any one seen these.? and where.?
See Ya', skuuter................. fing02.gif beer.gif
Hiya Skuuter.. (left that one pic in coz its awesome..) That is an awesome lowering job, I would like the full spec if you would be nice enough to let me have them.. I'm a heavy weight @ 5' 8" & 220lbs (legacy of enforced extended R&R) and can almost stand flat footed. I have the rear preload set but still need to set the front sag..
Also, somewhere about there are Res caps with VFR (6 gen style) engraved into them any one seen these.? and where.?
I'll send you a PM as soon as I get a chance.....the 220 lbs. will automatically cancel out "MY" set-up being right for you though for sure. Where it's hard for me to get enough SAG on a stock sprung VFR, you're in the opposite catagary...... fing02.gif
End of thread · 33 posts recoveredWayback Machine snapshot 31 Jul 2008
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