I was doing a variety of maintenance on the VFR and one of the things on that list was replacing the fuel filter. Getting that done wasn't too hard all the way through putting everything back in. I tightened down the 6 nuts and tipped the tank to test the seal and fuel was spilling out through the seal. So I removed the nuts, reseated everything carefully making sure all the pump assembly was safely in the tank. I reseated the seal as well, set everything back down and the bolts fit right where they should. On go the nuts, carefully tightened and checked the seal again. Leaking fuel. Now think I missed a step, go inside and carefully look over the 02+ Honda manual and see that nothing should be amiss. "Ok." I think. "Needs to be tighter on the nuts." So tighter I go all the way around with my trusty ratchet. On the last nut...pop. I ripped the bolt off the tank. :pissed:
I won't write what I was thinking next as this is a family grade site but now I get to go tank shopping. The cheapest I have been able to find for a tank that doesn't have a dent in it is just under $400 off ebay. There goes that paint job I was saving for. *sighs*
So don't pull a me and go buy the damn torque wrench. In the end it turns out a lot cheaper.
PS. If anyone has a non-dented 02+ tank sitting around looking for a home hit me up with a PM and a price. I don't care about the color though I am running an 02 Red. Now I am off to go buy a torque wrench. :dry:
Ouch! Nothing worse than trying to do the right thing like maintenance and having something like that bite you in the ass. I feel your pain.Good luck with a cheap as possible fix.
Dude, sorry about the tank. I've done the same kind of thing so now I also have a torque wrench. If you don't end up getting one shoot me a PM and you can borrow mine.
[image: View Post]vanion2, on Feb 21 2009, 03:44 PM, said:
I was doing a variety of maintenance on the VFR and one of the things on that list was replacing the fuel filter. Getting that done wasn't too hard all the way through putting everything back in. I tightened down the 6 nuts and tipped the tank to test the seal and fuel was spilling out through the seal. So I removed the nuts, reseated everything carefully making sure all the pump assembly was safely in the tank. I reseated the seal as well, set everything back down and the bolts fit right where they should. On go the nuts, carefully tightened and checked the seal again. Leaking fuel. Now think I missed a step, go inside and carefully look over the 02+ Honda manual and see that nothing should be amiss. "Ok." I think. "Needs to be tighter on the nuts." So tighter I go all the way around with my trusty ratchet. On the last nut...pop. I ripped the bolt off the tank. :pissed:
I won't write what I was thinking next as this is a family grade site but now I get to go tank shopping. The cheapest I have been able to find for a tank that doesn't have a dent in it is just under $400 off ebay. There goes that paint job I was saving for. *sighs*
So don't pull a me and go buy the damn torque wrench. In the end it turns out a lot cheaper.
PS. If anyone has a non-dented 02+ tank sitting around looking for a home hit me up with a PM and a price. I don't care about the color though I am running an 02 Red. Now I am off to go buy a torque wrench. :dry:
So sorry to hear that, bought one for chain adjustments but am sure it will be used for other things. Good luck on finding a tank at a good price.
[image: View Post]landlover, on Feb 21 2009, 12:10 PM, said:
[image: View Post]vanion2, on Feb 21 2009, 03:44 PM, said:
I was doing a variety of maintenance on the VFR and one of the things on that list was replacing the fuel filter. Getting that done wasn't too hard all the way through putting everything back in. I tightened down the 6 nuts and tipped the tank to test the seal and fuel was spilling out through the seal. So I removed the nuts, reseated everything carefully making sure all the pump assembly was safely in the tank. I reseated the seal as well, set everything back down and the bolts fit right where they should. On go the nuts, carefully tightened and checked the seal again. Leaking fuel. Now think I missed a step, go inside and carefully look over the 02+ Honda manual and see that nothing should be amiss. "Ok." I think. "Needs to be tighter on the nuts." So tighter I go all the way around with my trusty ratchet. On the last nut...pop. I ripped the bolt off the tank. :pissed:
I won't write what I was thinking next as this is a family grade site but now I get to go tank shopping. The cheapest I have been able to find for a tank that doesn't have a dent in it is just under $400 off ebay. There goes that paint job I was saving for. *sighs*
So don't pull a me and go buy the damn torque wrench. In the end it turns out a lot cheaper.
PS. If anyone has a non-dented 02+ tank sitting around looking for a home hit me up with a PM and a price. I don't care about the color though I am running an 02 Red. Now I am off to go buy a torque wrench. :dry:
So sorry to hear that, bought one for chain adjustments but am sure it will be used for other things. Good luck on finding a tank at a good price.
Darn! Sorry about that tank man. I bought one two years ago after my **pregnant** wife almost lost a front wheel on her Civic cause I didn't torque it enough after rotating the tires. :blush: ................. Needless to say, she was not, and I mean NOT!! impressed. :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: No more chances now, you're right, it is a well-invested $65 can out here. Good luck shopping for your tank. Try contacting St�phane, I thought he had a spare red tank for his '02. Not sure if he still has it.
Good luck!
PPM
When I said "torque her down till she snaps off and then back off half a turn" I was joking.
I am sorry for your tank. Is there any way to repair what snapped off? Even a complicated fix will be less than 400 bones. I'll keep my eyes open for a tank in the mean time.
Pretty sure the manual says to tighten in a "criss-cross" pattern, or something like that. Maybe if you went "around the horn" it won't seal properly? Actually I think it shows a numbered pattern, but basically "criss-crossed" if you know what I mean.
[image: View Post]slowf2337, on Feb 21 2009, 02:24 PM, said:
I'm sure you could get it welded back on. Find some one who is good with a tig and they should be able to fix it.
It's a pretty small bolt and where it broke it would have to be cut off and a new one welded on. I can ask a buddy of mine if it's doable but I don't hold much hope there. :mellow:
[image: View Post]KPerham, on Feb 21 2009, 02:33 PM, said:
Pretty sure the manual says to tighten in a "criss-cross" pattern, or something like that. Maybe if you went "around the horn" it won't seal properly? Actually I think it shows a numbered pattern, but basically "criss-crossed" if you know what I mean.
I referenced the Honda manual and followed their pattern so that wasn't the issue. It was an issue of too much torque. :rolleyes:
Thanks for the offer Action. I picked up a nice Craftsman torque wrench this afternoon so I won't have that to blame next time I screw something up. What really steams me is this beautiful riding weather that I won't get to enjoy. Ride one for the both of us. :cool:
Thanks timmythecop. I will look into the repair but as I said above...I don't hold much hope.
http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/uploads/1235173776/gallery_9864_2412_205481.jpg tank bolts.JPG
http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/uploads/1235173776/gallery_9864_2412_55623.jpg broken bolt.JPG
Edit: Can any of you fine folk tell me which of these part numbers represents my 02 Red?
17500-MCW-D00ZC
17500-MCW-D00ZD
17500-MCW-D60ZC
17500-MCW-D60ZA
17500-MCW-D80ZC
TIA
I have a red 02 tank.
It has a small dent, which can be hidden completely by tank bra.
I was keeping it in storage in case $hit, but could be persuaded to let it go.
PM me if interested.
Well, get a new gasket at the least. I just put a fuel pump into my RC51 street tank without a torque wrench and no leaks using a new gasket. Probably swapped a couple pumps without a torque wrench and no leaks.
Should be a lot less expensive than a new OR used tank. Good luck.
Time sert wont work the stud snapped off not the bolt hole.
Perhaps you can find a similar sized bolt - cut off and drill out the snapped off stud and thread a new bolt through the drill hole and take it to a welder to get it tacked in.
Should be a lot less expensive than a new OR used tank. Good luck.
A good idea but in my case this won't work. The bolt you see that is broken is fixed to the tank under the pump assembly and comes up through the holes. Then you tighten the assembly down with the nuts to hold it in place. Thanks for the suggestion though. :)
@HS...that is what I am hoping my buddy can do. I will be talking to him first thing on Monday as he runs a body shop and is going to repaint my bike. Thanks for giving me a direction to go as I will suggest this to him and see what he says. :fing02:
Should be a lot less expensive than a new OR used tank. Good luck.
Time sert wont work the stud snapped off not the bolt hole.
Perhaps you can find a similar sized bolt - cut off and drill out the snapped off stud and thread a new bolt through the drill hole and take it to a welder to get it tacked in.
Aha, so it's a stud and not really a bolt, That puts a new light on things. Yeah, HS, your suggestion is probably about the only recourse. Again, good luck with this one, vanion2. That is indeed a sticky wicket ya' got there.
It's a metric, newton-meter only (as opposed to SAE foot-lbs) wrench that I use on both my Honda's. I believe I paid around $120 to $130 for it. Very good quality for a reasonable price.
[image: View Post]HispanicSlammer, on Feb 21 2009, 09:24 PM, said:
Perhaps you can find a similar sized bolt - cut off and drill out the snapped off stud and thread a new bolt through the drill hole and take it to a welder to get it tacked in.
This is what I would do.
**Make sure you empty and rinse the tank REALLY WELL before attempting any work on this thing!**
Also, if you drill out the stud and put a bolt with a head in it's place, you may not need to weld it in. If you get a good quality fuel tanks sealant and use it properly, you can seal the head of the bolt inside the tank along with a "wet" installation. Chances are that would be good enough, with no welding required, although I would personally still want a tack weld or two.
[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on Feb 22 2009, 08:09 AM, said:
**Make sure you empty and rinse the tank REALLY WELL before attempting any work on this thing!**
Ok...I know I am an idiot for not using a torque wrench to begin with but I am not that much of an idiot. ;p :goofy:
Here is a sign of hope that this might work:
http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/uploads/1235304284/gallery_9864_2412_435905.jpg open tank.JPG
This should be an easy fix ,just drill out the stud and put a new stud and nut under it with a small amount of jb weld or sealant to replace the broken piece .Good luck !
Vanion,
could you cut out the raised hole assembly, slide the stud out, the weld in a new stud? Kinda like a floor flange for toilets-know what i mean?
[image: View Post]gmtech94, on Feb 22 2009, 11:26 AM, said:
This should be an easy fix ,just drill out the stud and put a new stud and nut under it with a small amount of jb weld or sealant to replace the broken piece .Good luck !
I was hoping it would be that simple but the new stud's head is too thick to get it under the hole assembly.
[image: View Post]tippman, on Feb 22 2009, 11:28 AM, said:
Vanion,
could you cut out the raised hole assembly, slide the stud out, the weld in a new stud? Kinda like a floor flange for toilets-know what i mean?
This is exactly what I am going to ask my buddy to do tomorrow. I am going to replace all 6 studs while the assembly is out. I all ready have them ready to go and got the broken stud out of the nut. If it works the studs won't be painted fast red (I may lose about a 1/2 mph top end :laugh:) but I could care less as it will be under the tank and a lot cheaper than a new one. :fing02:
[image: View Post]vanion2, on Feb 22 2009, 03:52 PM, said:
[image: View Post]gmtech94, on Feb 22 2009, 11:26 AM, said:
This should be an easy fix ,just drill out the stud and put a new stud and nut under it with a small amount of jb weld or sealant to replace the broken piece .Good luck !
I was hoping it would be that simple but the new stud's head is too thick to get it under the hole assembly.
No, that's a great & simple idea!
I forgot that the flange & studs looked like that. Drill the rest of the stud out, then get a bolt and nut of the same thread as the rest of the studs. Cut the head off the bolt so you have a stud. Place the nut under the raised area, and thread the stud you made into it(just like those battery nuts!). You wouldn't even have to weld or epoxy it in place, just stick your finger or a screw driver under there to prop the new 'stud' up if you can't get the outer nut started.
then drill out the head of the stud to the drill dia for the replacement stud, and tap the left over stud head for the stud thread
then locktite only the threaded portion of the new stud into the threaded hole. (you have cut off the head of the new stud and are only using the shank)
Now if the old head of the stud breaks off the bracket during tapping, then slide a nut under the flange and screw the new stud into the nut (you are using only the shaft of the new stud)
set the nut in this case using jb weld under the bracket put a stack of washers and a nut on the new stud finger tight and allow the jb to cure
wala new stud
now to sealing get 2 gaskets and bond them together using Rector seal tru-blu, and use this instead of the single you may have distorted the flange and need this to seal properly.
you can just use a threaded section cut from a grade 8 bolt for the stud.
use a tiny amount of the rector seal on the tank and pump to finish the seal when you install (you do not want to get much in the tank)
rector seal is available from plumbing supply houses and is rated for gasoline applications (get only the real Rector seal, not a knock off brand)
the repair should cost about $40 bucks in materials if you have to buy the tap and all.
Sorry gmtech94...I wasn't getting what you were saying in my head correctly.
I may just take the tank into work with me (we have a nice tap kit as well as all the drill bits I would need) and do this before anyone else gets there. It's for this very reason I keep telling my girl I keep posting on this site. Now if only she would believe me. :goofy:
While we're on the subject of torque wrenches, it is important to consider how using certain types of adapters and extensions (those that add overall length) to apply torque on hard-to-reach fasteners can change the value of the torque actually being applied.
Since torque = force x distance, when special accessories are used that add length to the torque wrench, the setting no longer reads true and corrections must be made to compensate for any added length. The length should be measured from the center of the adapter opening to the center of the square drive opening, measuring only distance that is parallel to the torque wrench. Adapters and extensions perpendicular to the square drive on a 2-dimensional plane do not apply.
So, you might ask how does one calculate the amount of torque produced by lengthening the torque wrench? Of course there's a formula, but this handy link will do it for you:
Using a torque wrench adapter that is offset from the square drive at 90 degrees (on a one dimensional plane) is not exactly a one-to-one reading with the torqure wrench setting but is close enough that the difference is usually discounted. The longer the adapter the more the difference though! I believe the torque wrench offset adapter calculator at cncexpo.com/TorqueAdapter.aspx calculates the 90 degree angle correctly if anyone is interested.
Trust me on this. Using a torque wrench is no guarantee you won't break a bolt or stud. :dry:
But at least now I know how much torque that bolt will take before it snaps!
There was a memorable feeling to it. Almost there, almost there, just a little more, POP! :pissed:
Hopefully if my hand ever feels that again, I'll remember to stop tightening. :laugh:
Edit, I know someone is going to twist my words. So, screw you in advance. :rolleyes:
[image: View Post]KPerham, on Feb 21 2009, 07:24 PM, said:
Well, get a new gasket at the least. I just put a fuel pump into my RC51 street tank without a torque wrench and no leaks using a new gasket. Probably swapped a couple pumps without a torque wrench and no leaks.
[image: View Post]vanion2, on Feb 22 2009, 12:00 PM, said:
Ok...I know I am an idiot for not using a torque wrench to begin with but I am not that much of an idiot. ;p :goofy:
Here is a sign of hope that this might work:
http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/uploads/1235304284/gallery_9864_2412_435905.jpg open tank.JPG
Back to the original post, I don't think not using a torque wrench was the problem. Pulling the pump/filter is a bitch clearance wise as I'm sure you found out. The tanks' metal lip is extremely thin and easily bent. No amount of tightening or proper torquing can fix that. BTDT I've pulled several 6 gen tanks for painting and modifying to my old superhawk and have run into this problem.
Although it's difficult to tell in a pic, it appears the lip around the 3 o'clock position isn't flush with the rest. My guess is it happened on the reinstall while trying to push it all back in.
[image: View Post]FotoMoto, on Feb 22 2009, 07:31 PM, said:
Although it's difficult to tell in a pic, it appears the lip around the 3 o'clock position isn't flush with the rest. My guess is it happened on the reinstall while trying to push it all back in.
:blink: Wow...you have a good eye. I just looked at the tank and it is slightly bent there. I will adjust that after the new bolts are in place and cross my fingers that it will take a seal this time.
@Rivcyko...It seems I have to learn everything the hard way. :rolleyes: :laugh:
This reminds me (and I hate to admit this) but working on my swimming pool filter, I was tightening the clamp that holds the two large pieces together. It said tighten to xx amount pounds. I got my torque wrench and started tightening and tightening and tightening and SNAP. What the...... It was in INCH POUNDS. I was using a FT pounds wrench. That new clamp cost me $100. Now I always double check. Man I was dumb!!
[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on Feb 22 2009, 03:48 PM, said:
[image: View Post]vanion2, on Feb 22 2009, 03:52 PM, said:
[image: View Post]gmtech94, on Feb 22 2009, 11:26 AM, said:
This should be an easy fix ,just drill out the stud and put a new stud and nut under it with a small amount of jb weld or sealant to replace the broken piece .Good luck !
I was hoping it would be that simple but the new stud's head is too thick to get it under the hole assembly.
No, that's a great & simple idea!
I forgot that the flange & studs looked like that. Drill the rest of the stud out, then get a bolt and nut of the same thread as the rest of the studs. Cut the head off the bolt so you have a stud. Place the nut under the raised area, and thread the stud you made into it(just like those battery nuts!). You wouldn't even have to weld or epoxy it in place, just stick your finger or a screw driver under there to prop the new 'stud' up if you can't get the outer nut started.
Great idea seb. I would actually modify that a little. I would drill the stud out and glue one of those battery nuts in place on the flange. For the bolt I would leave the head on and thread a nut on the bolt with the self locking facing the head. Then just thread the bolt/nut assembly into the battery nut on the tank until you know you have full thread engagement. Then hold the bolt head with a wrech and tighten the nut to the proper torque with another wrench or crows foot.
Well, I dropped the tank off at the body shop today and boy was I glad I did. I was so busy at work that it would still be sitting in the trunk of my car.
The bad news. Welding is out for several reasons. The slag covering too much of the threads being the most prominent.
Drilling the stud out and tapping new threads are also out as the tap bit expands out and there isn't enough clearance under the flange to get a good set of threads in. Also, he won't use JB Weld as an anchor because he doesn't believe it would be strong enough to hold the pump assembly in place (remember...this is his business and he has to worry about liability).
Please don't tell me it will work because he took the time to show me exactly what he was talking about and I have tapped enough holes to know he is right. Besides, I don't want a stud breaking loose while riding some twisties and having fuel spilling all over my spark plugs and hot engine. You can do it on your own tank if you want to prove me wrong. :goofy:
The good news. He is going to take a threaded clip, cut the top of the clip off and insert the threaded portion of the bottom under the flange after he drills out the studs. Then he will JB weld the new stud and clip to the tank with the flange reinforcing the whole assembly. If all goes well I will have the tank back by tomorrow afternoon where I will take pictures of his work. He's always done top notch work for me and won't hesitate to tell me if it's something he won't do. Thus the reason I rely on his experience to save me from myself. ;)
Of course I listed all the suggestions I got from here and that's what led us to the clip idea so your efforts were not in vain nor unappreciated by me. Thanks again for being there in my time of need. :)
Honda doesnt require the fuel filter be changed , unless an issue.
So I dont know why going to the trouble and evidently expense , if its not required or have a specific issue
I've ran vehicles 150,000 mile on orginal fuel filter, as long ya get clean gas and no corrsion, its alife time item, especially on the VFR at 54,000 mile
[image: View Post]spud786, on Feb 23 2009, 06:01 PM, said:
Honda doesnt require the fuel filter be changed , unless an issue.
So I dont know why going to the trouble and evidently expense , if its not required or have a specific issue
I've ran vehicles 150,000 mile on orginal fuel filter, as long ya get clean gas and no corrsion, its alife time item, especially on the VFR at 54,000 mile
It's a little late for that now don't you think? ;p
Besides, I was going by the owner's manual guidelines which says the filter should be changed every 32,000 miles. I was a little behind at the 41,000 mile mark but I had the tank up for other maintenance and figured what the heck. :cool:
My buddy got the new studs in by cutting the flange near the old studs, bending the flange just enough to cut off the heads, spot weld the new studs in and then welded the flange back together. Then he brushed a light coat of paint over the flange and studs to prevent rusting. I will post pics later if anyone is interested.
So with my fixed tank, I proceeded to carefully insert the pump assembly and used my new torque wrench to set the nuts. Still leaked. So I pulled the assembly out, carefully went around the lip and realigned it so every part was even. In went the assembly, on went the nuts, held the tank up and no leaks. Thanks for pointing that out Fotomoto. I was really bummed when it leaked again until I remembered what you said. :fing02:
I rode her for a good 45 minutes in rush hour traffic, finally getting to test drive my new Garmin Zumo 450 and I must say I feel freakin' fantastic. I was hurting for a ride so bad. Thanks for all the help guys. Once again, you prove why this is the best motorcycle forum I have ever seen. :beer:
[image: View Post]vanion2, on Feb 22 2009, 05:44 AM, said:
On the last nut...pop.
I know the feeling ;) I sheared one of the bolts that holds the reg/rec. You have to be so careful with the alloy metals they use. It's like working with cheese.
Sorry to hear what happened, hope you get it fixed up all right.
This does bring to light the issue of torque wrenches not just one. I would sugest for anyone that is going to be doing any type of real work on thier bikes to take th money and purchase 3 different wrenches. One 1/4" inch-lb, One 3/8" low scale ft-lb, and one 1/2" med-high scale ft-lb. Yes it costs a little more but there really are points in time where you dont to have to guess how well your torque wrench is going to work at either end of its scale. Even worse is trying do inch-lb conversions to ft-lbs with an entirely to large of a wrench. Just my thoughts on the matter.
End of thread · 40 posts recoveredWayback Machine snapshot 12 Apr 2010