Tapered Steering Head Bearings

Has anyone tried "tapered steering head bearings"? I have a 4th gen and was going to replace the stockers. Are they any good? I have read that if installed that it will raise the steering a bit.Steering stem bearing replacement Where can I get a good set?
Thanks for the help.

Travis

Actually, they are called "tapered roller bearings" and they are much, much better than the stock ball bearings in every way. If you need to change your steering stem bearings I would suggest that you use those and not the stock type parts.

FotoMoto, Mar 4 2009, 12:12 PMhttp://www.goallballs.com/home.asp

Yep, that's who I've been using. Good parts.

The only way to go.

I can't believe Honda and others still use ball bearings in the steering stem. My KTM came with tapered roller bearings stock. Both my VFR and ST1300 come with ball bearings in the steering stem. I thought ball bearings in the steering stem went the way of points and condensers.

Thank you all!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/491.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/491.gif) I knew I could count on someone to help me out.

Thanks again,

Travis

Just don't use the torque spec in the Factory Service Manual for the NEW tapered rollers. (18 ft/lbs, IIRC?)

FSM spec is for the OEM round rollers. If you use that spec, the tapereds will be WAY too stiff and you'll be guaranteed a low speed weave and awful steering characteristics.


Tapered rollers live much happier at 3-5 ft/lbs.

I run mine at 5 and they are great.

Pete McCrary, Mar 4 2009, 12:44 PMThe only way to go.

I can't believe Honda and others still use ball bearings in the steering stem. My KTM came with tapered roller bearings stock. Both my VFR and ST1300 come with ball bearings in the steering stem. I thought ball bearings in the steering stem went the way of points and condensers.

All new Honda sportbikes come with tapered roller steering stem bearings. They have for about 6-8 years now.

veefer800canuck, Mar 4 2009, 06:29 PMJust don't use the torque spec in the Factory Service Manual for the NEW tapered rollers. (18 ft/lbs, IIRC?)

FSM spec is for the OEM round rollers. If you use that spec, the tapereds will be WAY too stiff and you'll be guaranteed a low speed weave and awful steering characteristics.


Tapered rollers live much happier at 3-5 ft/lbs.

I run mine at 5 and they are great.

In fact, you should use at least the stock torque measurement. The tapered roller bearings can handle much higher loads so more preload on them is ok. I'd crank yours up, you will probably see an improvement in doing so. I usuall run 20-25ft-lb or more.

JamieDaugherty, Mar 4 2009, 06:43 PM

Pete McCrary, Mar 4 2009, 12:44 PMThe only way to go.

I can't believe Honda and others still use ball bearings in the steering stem. My KTM came with tapered roller bearings stock. Both my VFR and ST1300 come with ball bearings in the steering stem. I thought ball bearings in the steering stem went the way of points and condensers.

All new Honda sportbikes come with tapered roller steering stem bearings. They have for about 6-8 years now.

veefer800canuck, Mar 4 2009, 06:29 PMJust don't use the torque spec in the Factory Service Manual for the NEW tapered rollers. (18 ft/lbs, IIRC?)

FSM spec is for the OEM round rollers. If you use that spec, the tapereds will be WAY too stiff and you'll be guaranteed a low speed weave and awful steering characteristics.


Tapered rollers live much happier at 3-5 ft/lbs.

I run mine at 5 and they are great.

In fact, you should use at least the stock torque measurement. The tapered roller bearings can handle much higher loads so more preload on them is ok. I'd crank yours up, you will probably see an improvement in doing so. I usuall run 20-25ft-lb or more.

Not sure where you're going with these comments, as they are both false. Honda has used ball bearings up until at least 2006(I haven't looked at a manual or taken apart an 07-08 yet), and high torque values are not good when it comes to tapered rollers, as Rob said.

The tapered bearings are preset to a "high" torque of about 30ft-lbs(roughly half that of ball bearings!), and then re-set to anywhere from 3-15 ft-lbs.

Case in point, the spec for the 1983 VF750F, which came from the factory with tapered rollers, is to pre-set to 25-30ft-lbs, turn lock to lock 4-5 times, then loosen and reset to 10-12ft-lbs. That's for a heavy bike with relaxed geometry compared to modern sportbikes.

Add steeper geometry #'s in with high torque on taper bearings, and you'll have difficulty steering accurately.

I personally prefer the light steering feel that ball bearings give, but have been changing to tapered bearings in my bikes anyway for longevity. When I installed the last set in my VTEC, it took me a few tries to get them tightened how I liked them. I had them too tight a few times, then too loose once, and then finally settled on a torque. I made the last couple adjustments by hand, supporting the triple from underneath with one hand and turning the Honda stem socket with the other, with the front end elevated. Then I did it all again about 800 miles later.

I've been meaning to buy a spring scale, but always forget about them as soon as the job is done and the riding begins. That would probably make things much easier!

Anybody wants to try the higher torque setting, go ahead.

Just don't go above the spec in the FSM. Tok Tokkie did so, and cracked his frame.


He was using a seating torque spec from an archaic source, written for 1970s steel-framed bikes. Like 50 ft/lbs and then back off. Unfortunately, after the loud CRACK, there was no backing off. Don't do that to your ride, or it's new frame time.
Luckily Tok Tokkie is a machinist, so he had it welded up and machined it back into serviceable trim.



And if you then suddenly develop a pronounced, incurable low-speed weave at the (standard) factory torque setting with non-OEM tapered rollers, you'll know why.

But by all means, give 'er a shot, don't let me stop you.

SEBSPEED, Mar 4 2009, 07:15 PMNot sure where you're going with these comments, as they are both false. Honda has used ball bearings up until at least 2006(I haven't looked at a manual or taken apart an 07-08 yet), and high torque values are not good when it comes to tapered rollers, as Rob said.

The CBR's for the past ~7 years have had tapered rollers from the factory. I'm sure some models still had ball bearings, but apparently you totally missed my point that Honda did use tapered roller bearings from the factory.

SEBSPEED, Mar 4 2009, 07:15 PMThe tapered bearings are preset to a "high" torque of about 30ft-lbs(roughly half that of ball bearings!), and then re-set to anywhere from 3-15 ft-lbs.

Preset? I'm not sure what you are referring to there.

SEBSPEED, Mar 4 2009, 07:15 PMCase in point, the spec for the 1983 VF750F, which came from the factory with tapered rollers

Sorry man, it didn't. Those bikes cam from the factory with angular contact ball bearings.

SEBSPEED, Mar 4 2009, 07:15 PMAdd steeper geometry #'s in with high torque on taper bearings, and you'll have difficulty steering accurately.

In all of the bikes I've put tapered roller bearings in I've never used a torque less than stock. In fact, when I've started with spec-torque I've found it to be way too light and was almost forced to up the torque.

Ever hear the story about the CBR929RR's? They came with tapered roller steering stem bearings from the factory but no steering damping. They had a recall because folks were complaining of head shakes. The recall was to, get this, replace the tapered roller lower bearing (only) with a old-type ball bearing [in fact they changed out the whole lower triple, just because it was less labor]. Why? Because the ball bearings have more friction which damped out the head shakes. Pretty much the opposite of what you state. Now, I'm not sure what you experiences are, but mine seem to match more closely to what Honda supports.

Ok so I got busy the other day and decided to install my ALL Balls Steering Stem Tapper Bearing kit. Ill list some tools I used then a photo essay for you. Plan on about 3 to 4 hours to complete.

Tools/Parts

All Balls Stem Bearing Kit # 22-1020 (good for 5 gen too)
Good grease. waterproof if you like.
Can of brake cleaner
rags
latex gloves

Tools:
Jack
Torque Wrench
Sockets: 30mm, 24mm, 22mm, 12mm, 14mm, 10mm, 8mm
Rachets: 1/2 and 3/8 with small and medium extensions
Wrenches: possible crescent wrench if you dont have the bigger sockets.
Punch/chisel set Long punch needed to pound out old races
Phillips and straight screw drivers
5mm allen socket/driver (cowls and fender )
6mm allen wrench
Bearing Race driver or press is recommended
Hammer


You do not have to take the nose off if you dont want but I dont like fighting to get into places (like the lower bearing race). I decided to take the extra 10 minutes and strip my plastics off. This was a good thing as I also went ahead and did the following and suggest you may plan for this as well but not covered in this post:

* Change fork oil (I found bent tubes on mine and switched out for spare forks, switching my springs and valves and changed the fluid. )
* Change Coolant (removed radiator from bracket and lower hose to access front pugs). Drain at water pump also.
* Change front plugs (every 8k miles). Will do the rear ones and clean oil k/n air filter in a few weeks when I install the 929 rear shock.

Start stripping off the Side plastics and nose and than jack up front end under headers:

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Remove front brake calipers, loosen lower axle bolt pinch bolts, remove axle nut, drive axle out of wheel, remove wheel and then fender.

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[SIZE="4"]IF you are going to change your fork oil and/or install and new springs/internals do this: BEFORE you loosen the triple clamps loosen the upper fork caps ( just enough to break them loose) this way you dont have to damage the forks in a vise!

Next loosen the top 30mm center triple nut (may have to turn to full lock to loosen). Proceed to loosen handle bar pinch bolts and remove bars to the side. Loosen top triple clamp bolts and then lower triple clamp bolts. Remove zip ties around fork legs. Remove fork legs

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Remove horn wires and horn assembly ( I didnt and wished I did). Remove 30mm nut and then pull off upper triple tree. Carefully bend down the 2 tangs that are holding upper nut and remove upper nut. I used a special screwdriver to loosen the lower nut till loose. Undo by hand while holding lower triple tree. Once nut is loose you can remove upper seal and bearing and drop out lower clamp w/stem

(IMG:http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/BRIANGOAD/tapper%20bearings/tapperbearings009.jpg)
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After the stem is removed clean up some of the old grease away from the steering head and races. There are cut outs in the head that allow you to drift out the old races. You can see these in the after shots pretty well located at 12 and 6 o'clock. Get your punch and hammer and rotate from side to side walking the old race out.Clean up old grease out of head and prepare for new races.

(IMG:http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/BRIANGOAD/tapper%20bearings/tapperbearings015.jpg)
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You now need to remove the bearing off the lower stem. I dont have my vise set up but it would be easier with one. The idea is the same either way. Start by driving a screwdriver or small chisel between the seal and lower triple clamp to wedge bearing off shaft. Careful not to be hammering and hitting the shaft with driver/chisel, you want to be on the side of it. ALSO be sure to protect the threads on the other end, installing the top nut is a good idea. After the bearing is away from the lower clamp you can use a small punch rotating around the bearing to get it up about an inch till it will slide off.

(IMG:http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/BRIANGOAD/tapper%20bearings/tapperbearings024.jpg)

Clean up the shaft and open up your new bearing kit. There is a special press tool from honda and if you have the $$ Id love to have it but I dont have the $$ or the time. I love new tools and bought this Harbor Freight Driver set $29.95. Had a good size for the upper but not really for the lower race but worked ok. I put both races and stem in the freezer while I greased up and cleaned up to help installation. Plus its just plain COOL (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(IMG:http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/BRIANGOAD/tapper%20bearings/tapperbearings023.jpg)
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After about 20-30 minutes in the freezer I called it good and took the top race out and installed it :

(IMG:http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/BRIANGOAD/tapper%20bearings/tapperbearings027.jpg)

Then the lower the same way. Dont get to hammer happy and make sure the races are going in evenly. I had to take a punch on the lower one to straighten out itself into its new home but it made it safe

(IMG:http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/BRIANGOAD/tapper%20bearings/tapperbearings033.jpg)

I then greased up the 2 bearings by hand. Please people PACK your bearings and not just smear grease on the outside. If you have a bearing packer and know how to use it then good. If not hand pack them using latex gloves and the palm of your hand. You pack into the larger diameter end forcing grease to come out the other side. ALSO you don NOT want grease on the inside of the bearing that goes on the shaft. You want the bearing to rotate not the inner shaft end, so clean it up!

(IMG:http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/BRIANGOAD/tapper%20bearings/tapperbearings025.jpg)

Install the new large seal washer on the CLEANED shaft and then the new greased large bearing. I used the old bearing raced I punched off as a guide to drift the new bearing on. Other people have used a piece of PVC pipe along with the old bearing race to drive the new bearing on as well. However you do it be sure that you are pressing the bearing on VIA the inner shaft of the bearing and never the outer cage or its toast and your done till you get another bearing.

(IMG:http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/BRIANGOAD/tapper%20bearings/tapperbearings034.jpg)

Now install the lower triple into the head and install upper greased bearing, seal, then lower nut.

(IMG:http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/BRIANGOAD/tapper%20bearings/tapperbearings035.jpg)
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To finish I used a screwdriver and hammer to tighten the lower nut pretty tight to set the bearings. I then loosened the nut and tighten down by hand as much as I could making sure there was no play in the shaft/bearings. Install the lock washer next then the top nut. Tighten the top nut down just enough to line up the next spot to fold the lock ring tabs into. Install horn and wires. Install upper triple clamp and nut hand tight only. Reinstall forks (making sure your throttle cables, clutch line and wires are routed correct) to a distance of 39mm (stock) from top of triple to top of fork leg. I did mine at 42mm to top of nut. Tighten down upper fork pinch bolts to hold settings. Install the front axle and I wiggled the upper triple back and forth, while holding lower legs between my legs, to help center/align the upper and lower triple trees. Torque upper and lower pinch bolts, Center upper nut. Install handle bars and check for clearance of fuel tank before tightening. Now test to make sure the steering is moving freely and easy.

Make sure you torque all the bolts you removed and put your front tire on the right direction. Reinstall brake calipers making sure pads are placed properly. This is just a quick guide so if you have questions please ask, I may have left something out as I was doing many jobs at the same time. Thanks Brian.

Torque Specs 94-97 VFR :

Top fork clamp 17 lbf-ft
Lower fork clamp 36 lbf-ft
Stem Nut 76 lbf-ft
Caliper mounts 20 lbf-ft
Front Axle nut 43 lbf-ft
Axle pinch bolts 16 lbf-ft
Handle bar bolts 17 lbf-ft

As always I encourage you to follow the factory shop manual when doing any reapairs.

WOW, that is helpful there "SLO97VFR" a GREAT help and great tips. I already have mine apart (I sent my forks and 929 shock to Daugherty Motorsports to have them do there magic), so I just thought it was a good time to replace the bearings.

Thanks,
Travis

JamieDaugherty, Mar 4 2009, 06:16 PM

SEBSPEED, Mar 4 2009, 07:15 PMCase in point, the spec for the 1983 VF750F, which came from the factory with tapered rollers

Sorry man, it didn't. Those bikes cam from the factory with angular contact ball bearings.

The 83 came with tapered rollers. 84/85 with ball bearings.

JamieDaugherty, Mar 4 2009, 06:16 PMEver hear the story about the CBR929RR's? They came with tapered roller steering stem bearings from the factory but no steering damping. They had a recall because folks were complaining of head shakes. The recall was to, get this, replace the tapered roller lower bearing (only) with a old-type ball bearing [in fact they changed out the whole lower triple, just because it was less labor]. Why? Because the ball bearings have more friction which damped out the head shakes. Pretty much the opposite of what you state. Now, I'm not sure what you experiences are, but mine seem to match more closely to what Honda supports.

It wasn't a recall. If a 929 owner was unhappy with the steering feel, Honda offered to install tapered rollers free of charge.

tdchonda1, Mar 4 2009, 11:51 PMWOW, that is helpful there "SLO97VFR" a GREAT help and great tips. I already have mine apart (I sent my forks and 929 shock to Daugherty Motorsports to have them do there magic), so I just thought it was a good time to replace the bearings.

Thanks,
Travis

No problem I had that posted up at VFRW so thought I would cut and paste for you. I just installed a 929 shock on mine tonight, well almost finished. I almost think the 954 shock might be better but hard to say. THe problem lies in cutting some of the heat shield and then fabbing a different coil mount for the rear coils. Ill post up pics in the 4 gen 929 shock replacement forum probably tomorrow.

JamieDaugherty, Mar 4 2009, 09:16 PM

SEBSPEED, Mar 4 2009, 07:15 PMNot sure where you're going with these comments, as they are both false. Honda has used ball bearings up until at least 2006(I haven't looked at a manual or taken apart an 07-08 yet), and high torque values are not good when it comes to tapered rollers, as Rob said.

The CBR's for the past ~7 years have had tapered rollers from the factory. I'm sure some models still had ball bearings, but apparently you totally missed my point that Honda did use tapered roller bearings from the factory.

The only one I haven't seen personally is the 1000RR. The F4, F4i, 600RR, & 954 all have ball bearings top and bottom. I know this because at some point or another in the last 4 years, I've personally walked a circle in my garage swapping triples back and forth between all those bikes, and they were all stock at the time.

JamieDaugherty, Mar 4 2009, 09:16 PM

SEBSPEED, Mar 4 2009, 07:15 PMThe tapered bearings are preset to a "high" torque of about 30ft-lbs(roughly half that of ball bearings!), and then re-set to anywhere from 3-15 ft-lbs.

Preset? I'm not sure what you are referring to there.

Not sure how to word it more easily, after inserting the lower triple into the frame with new bearings installed, you thread on the first of two locknuts. This nut gets tightened to an initial high torque value to seat the bearings(pre), then loosened and (re) set to the spec torque. It's then locked in place by setting on top of it the lock washer along with the hand-tightened second locknut.

JamieDaugherty, Mar 4 2009, 09:16 PM

SEBSPEED, Mar 4 2009, 07:15 PMCase in point, the spec for the 1983 VF750F, which came from the factory with tapered rollers

Sorry man, it didn't. Those bikes cam from the factory with angular contact ball bearings.

I'm sorry too. Because you are in fact, wrong. Unless I got a special bike that came with it's own special, limited edition factory service manual showing pics of the only VF750F with tapered bearings. ???

JamieDaugherty, Mar 4 2009, 09:16 PM

SEBSPEED, Mar 4 2009, 07:15 PMAdd steeper geometry #'s in with high torque on taper bearings, and you'll have difficulty steering accurately.

In all of the bikes I've put tapered roller bearings in I've never used a torque less than stock. In fact, when I've started with spec-torque I've found it to be way too light and was almost forced to up the torque.

Ever hear the story about the CBR929RR's? They came with tapered roller steering stem bearings from the factory but no steering damping. They had a recall because folks were complaining of head shakes. The recall was to, get this, replace the tapered roller lower bearing (only) with a old-type ball bearing [in fact they changed out the whole lower triple, just because it was less labor]. Why? Because the ball bearings have more friction which damped out the head shakes. Pretty much the opposite of what you state. Now, I'm not sure what you experiences are, but mine seem to match more closely to what Honda supports.

I guess if it feels good to you, fine. I won't defend a point that impedes on what someone wants their steering to feel like. I like mine light and smooth, for the record. As I said, I've been meaning to get a spring scale so that I can more accurately measure the differences between the ball and roller type bearings at various torque settings.

I hadn't heard the story about the 929's, but if you look in the parts fiches they show ball bearings. Also, I've had a stock 929 apart and it had ball bearings top and bottom. The guy I bought my 954 from also had a 929 - he let someone ride it and they crashed coming down from a wheelie. The owner bought all new plastics, parts, etc - but complained to me about the steering feeling tight in spots and a loud metallic noise. I took the front end off and discovered that the ball bearing race was intact, but the cast shoulder inside the neck that supported the bearing race had broken. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

@SLO97VFR: Great write up :thumbsup:

SEBSPEED, Mar 5 2009, 01:00 PMThe only one I haven't seen personally is the 1000RR.

The CBR1000RR up to at least 2006 has ball bearings too, it is the same set as used in the CBR600RR.

When I replaced the ball bearings with tapered rollers I torqued them up to a lower spec than what is prescribed for the ball bearings and after a first ride I had to back them off even further as the bike was weaving. An engineer from SKF (major manufacturer of bearings) told me that just taking the slack out is all that is needed.

V4 Rosso, Mar 5 2009, 09:19 AM@SLO97VFR: Great write up :thumbsup:

SEBSPEED, Mar 5 2009, 01:00 PMThe only one I haven't seen personally is the 1000RR.

The CBR1000RR up to at least 2006 has ball bearings too, it is the same set as used in the CBR600RR.

When I replaced the ball bearings with tapered rollers I torqued them up to a lower spec than what is prescribed for the ball bearings and after a first ride I had to back them off even further as the bike was weaving. An engineer from SKF (major manufacturer of bearings) told me that just taking the slack out is all that is needed.

Sources don't get much better than that! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/fing02.gif)

Lets try not to get in a pissing contest here with differences of opinions.
Supporting your side with facts is always the best defense! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

All good stuff, I have yet to install my ALLBALLS Chinese tapered rollers. I'm assuming the bearing made in China have Vastly improved in quality?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

I have always heard that tapered head bearings use much lighter torque specs than roller ball bearings and I have never pulled a bike apart that had them(tapered) yet! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif)

Another data point: I just installed an 06 cbr1000rr triple on my "ancient" 96 4gen and it has the same bearing set.

FotoMoto, Mar 5 2009, 09:30 AMAnother data point: I just installed an 06 cbr1000rr triple on my "ancient" 96 4gen and it has the same bearing set.

I'm assuming they were both Ball bearing's ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif)

Baileyrock, Mar 5 2009, 11:20 AMLets try not to get in a pissing contest here with differences of opinions.
Supporting your side with facts is always the best defense! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

Yes, I knew I'd be testing those waters. I'd rather do that than let someone get themselves into trouble when working on their own bike though.

Sorry if I stepped on any toes! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif)