Engine Break-in

I am sure that this has been discussed but I have searched for a day and can't find anything. It has been about 4 years since I had my 2003 Silver VFR. I am picking up my NEW 2007 25th Anniversary tomorrow. It is about 100 miles from my home and it is going to be all interstate. Here is the debate. Do I break it in like the manual says and vary the throttle and not gover specific RPM's and Speed? Or Ride it like you own but not bounce it off the rev limiter but drive it and have fun? I know you can research this and debate this over and over again. But I am back and tomorrow can't come fast enough. Asking for some advise.

Thanks

Brown

I would see if there is a dyno in the area and have it broken with three or four pulls on the dyno. You can watch the horse power increase with each pull.

This is sometimes a controversial technique but anyone who has been on a factory tour of any motor vehicle manufacturer can see that at the end of the assembly (if not in the engine room) the manufacturer is basically doing a dyno pull without the dyno.

I think the "vary the engine speed" wording is from decades ago then the metallurgy was vastly different from what we have today and no one has rewritten (or fixed) what isn't exactly broken. The low limits on speed or rpm serve more to get you used to the bike that for the sake of the engine.

So, I would put it on the dyno, ride it the 150 (gotta be some back roads to keep off of 100 miles of interstate :fing02: ) then change the oil and ride it like it was meant to be ridden....

Your not thrashing your engine... you're doing what your engine
requires... The purpose of high rpms is initial seating of the piston
rings to the cylinder walls. The run is conducted at full power
because that is where greatest B.M.E.P. (Brake Mean Effective
Pressure) occurs and a high B.M.E.P. is necessary for good piston ring
break-in.

The cylinder walls of a new engine are not mirror smooth as one might
imagine. A special hone is used to put a diamond like pattern of
"scratches" over the entire area of the cylinder wall. The cross hatch
treatment of the cylinder walls plays an important role in proper
break-in of piston rings to cylinder walls. I mentioned that B.M.E.P.
was necessary to the "break-in" process. Here is how it works.

If you cutaway a piston, ring and cylinder wall and inspect under
magnification you see something to the effect of "saw teeth"... Given
that a film of lubricating oil holds the piston ring away from the
cylinder wall. Proper break-in of piston ring to cylinder wall
requires that the ring rupture or break through this oil film and make
contact with the cylinder wall. During such "metal to metal" contact,
the little peaks on the ring face and cylinder wall become white hot
and rub off. This condition will continue to occur until the ring face
and cylinder wall have established a smooth compatible surface between
each other. At this point, break-in is said to be relatively complete
and very little metal-to-metal contact will occur hereafter. In fact,
as the break-in process progresses, the degree of metal-to-metal
contact will regress.

There is one little "sticky wicky" in this process, that film of
lubricating oil is there to prevent metal-to-metal contact. That's
exactly what it will do and really that's what we want it to do.
However, during the break-in process, we must have some minute
metal-to-metal contact as previously explained. Therefore, rupture of
the oil film is necessary. The factors under the owners control can
retard this necessary rupture are low power and babying the engine...

During the normal break-in process the points or ridges of the
honed-in scratches are partially worn away. During the actual
oil-film rupture, only the ridges on the piston rings and cylinder
walls contact each other. The little "valleys" between the ridges
retain a film of oil and thereby prevent a total dry condition between
piston ring and cylinder wall. B.M.E.P. or combustion pressure forces
the ring against the cylinder wall. This is the "key" to the break-in
process. You can see then that low power (low B.M.E.P.) won't provide
the same results and the break-in process will require a longer period
of time. However, time in this instance will have a detrimental effect
on your engine because any prolonged, low power break-in procedure
usually leads to "glazed" cylinder walls.

During each power stroke, the cylinder walls are subjected to very
high temperatures, often 4000 degrees F or higher. This period is very
brief but nevertheless, long enough to cause oxidation of minute
quantities of some of the lubricating oil on the cylinder walls. Some
of this oxidation will settle into the "valleys" of the honed cylinder
wall "scratches." Eventually this situation will fill the "valleys" of
the cylinder walls creating a smooth, flat surface. This is also a
normal situation; however the ring break-in process practically ceases
when these valleys become filled or "glazed" over.

If this "glazed over process occurs before break-in is complete, in
modern day language, "you have had it." Excessive oil consumption
resulting from incomplete ring seating will present itself and the
only certain remedy is rehoning the cylinder walls. This is both
expensive and unnecessary.

Here's my best advice when a customer wishes to know for *sure* the
state of break in on their new bike... I take a compression test... if
the engine shows factory compression then ring seating is done... if I
don't see factory compression then I advise more high revs to punch
though the oil film... and don't worry... that oil film is protecting
all the other critical parts so you can not hurt the engine...

I also subcribe to Motoman's method...
http://www.mototuneu..._in_secrets.htm

Engine breakin techniques belong in oil threads :)
I seriously doubt it matters what you do, as long as you don't beat the crap out of it during the first 1000 miles.
Changing the oil early, maybe at 300 miles, won't hurt and might give you a little peace of mind.

I am 100% in favor of what our BusyLittleShop wrote. He has it together on this one for sure. I have also broken engines in via Motoman's methods and never had an oil burner or an oil user.

I'm also sure that a lot of people ask the question, "why doesn't the manufactures tell us to break in engines in this manner". I feel that the manufactures are afraid to turn loose the general public on this method due to the fact that many people feel if a little is good, than a lot is just so much better. Many people may just overdue it or crash into a telephone pole while accelerating and keeping the revs up to seat the rings.

Remember, we are usually dealing with a new ride be it car or bike and if you are pulling good revs in or on a new machine, you stand a much better chance of making instant junk out of it. What manufacturer would want to face that liability by suggesting you should wind up a new engine a bit?

But ossifer, the manual tells me to crank it up a bit to break in the engine properly. I don't think so.

BusyShop's explanation of the goings on in a new engine is as good as any one I have ever read.

Stay off the interstate if you can and take the back roads with a variation of engine RPM and loads.

I think it doesn't much matter how you run the engine, intuitively I would think running the wheels off of it as you would on a track could be counter-productive but that can't be done on the street. The manufacturer would provide instructions if necessary, Honda wouldn't risk having to replace improperly broken-in engines under warranty if a specific procedure was needed.

This said, we all over-do it with our bikes, changing oil way more often than needed and doing all sorts of other maintenance items more frequently than Honda conservatively specified. I don't see anything wrong with this!

Regards,
Bruckner

Just use strong bursts up and down , but stay below 9,000 rpm for 300 mile

Then go do High speed run , then change the stock oil

I think BLS said it all, and thanks for clearing up some misconceptions on my part.

I wanted to share a tidbit, and would be interested as to what some of you thought, too. I have a Good friend (and Great riding buddy) who's been a Service Manager in a Honda (auto) dealership for years. When I asked him essentially this smae question some years back, he explained much of what BLS did (in much less accurate detail), but told me to follow Honda's recommendations.

Granted this was for a Car, but his reasoning was essentially this - he told me that Honda uses a special Break-In oil (or at least did then - I haven't discussed it since) meant to specifically accomplish All of what BLS just described so effectively.

In fact (again, it was a Car), he Also said NOT to Change the oil Early, but to go for the Full service recomendation (or at least 5,000 miles, he said) so that the oil was able to do it's thing properly. Yes, it seemed long (he said), and Yes it will get Black as Hell (it Did), but the oil cost (at That time) $70 a Quart, and Honda knows what it's talking about!

So, for my 2�, I would suggest you consider following what Honda says, too. And, as an FYI - my friend, the same guy, just sold His accord ('01, stick, 140K+), and it Still gets at least 35mpg Hwy. We were actually together a couple of times when it got 41 - Honest!

I'd be interested as to what others have to say, but maybe this helps a little. Good Luck. :fing02:

I've seen guys break in an engine on the track and I've sen guys baby the motor for months. I'm no expert, but after many new bike purchases, the break in oil is like 30-40 percent metal when you change it. Most guys I know who are reliable say break it in as you use it.

plus its a handa...................it will last forever

[image: View Post]MakMan, on Mar 23 2009, 11:43 PM, said:

.....Granted this was for a Car, but his reasoning was essentially this - he told me that Honda uses a special Break-In oil (or at least did then - I haven't discussed it since) meant to specifically accomplish All of what BLS just described so effectively.

In fact (again, it was a Car), he Also said NOT to Change the oil Early, but to go for the Full service recomendation (or at least 5,000 miles, he said) so that the oil was able to do it's thing properly. Yes, it seemed long (he said), and Yes it will get Black as Hell (it Did), but the oil cost (at That time) $70 a Quart, and Honda knows what it's talking about!
I'm not sure how Honda does it, but when I worked at the Kawasaki dealership most of the bikes came out of the crate with no oil. That was one of the many checks on the set-up sheet, torque the oil drain bolt and fill with oil. We used the same oil as we put in any other bike we worked on.

[image: View Post]MakMan, on Mar 23 2009, 11:43 PM, said:

In fact (again, it was a Car), he Also said NOT to Change the oil Early, but to go for the Full service recomendation (or at least 5,000 miles, he said) so that the oil was able to do it's thing properly.

I think the logic of this piece of advice is similar to the recommendation to avoid synthetic oil for the first couple of thousand miles, you don't want your oil to be too slippery otherwise internal friction will be kept at a minimum, internal friction is precisely what's needed to round off the rough edges.

Regards,
Bruckner

[image: View Post]Bruckner, on Mar 23 2009, 06:04 PM, said:

I think it doesn't much matter how you run the engine, intuitively I would think running the wheels off of it as you would on a track could be counter-productive but that can't be done on the street. The manufacturer would provide instructions if necessary, Honda wouldn't risk having to replace improperly broken-in engines under warranty if a specific procedure was needed.

This said, we all over-do it with our bikes, changing oil way more often than needed and doing all sorts of other maintenance items more frequently than Honda conservatively specified. I don't see anything wrong with this!

Regards,
Bruckner

This is the misconception that I had for years as well. But think about it from another angle, it's not that Honda will have to replace improperly broken in engines, it's just that these engines will not perform at the highest level.

Think about how many times you have witnessed a vehicles oil consumption drop as it gets several thousand miles on the engine. The rings eventually seat and oil use drops but the power is not there. Each of us knows of some engines that from the same vehicle that just seem to be stronger performers than others and we generally say "that one must have been on a Wednesday and this ono on a Monday or Friday."

Rick's yellow 2000 VFR makes a very noticible difference power when compared to my Red 2001. Is this because Yellow VFR's are faster? No, but my bike was originally purchased by a gentleman in his mid 50's who had been out of motorcylcling for a little over 20 years. He told me that in briking the bike in he followed Honda's instructions religiously and strictly adhered to all break in recommendations. He fell while practicing in a parking lot at around 25 mph and broke a rib and a hip. He only put 9,700 miles on the bike before selling it in 2006.

Rick's original owner was a younger guy who apparently broke it in right. The second owner was a LEO in Lutz, FL. Rick's bike makes 5-8 SOTP-HP more than my bike (that is seat of the pants horse power) :goofy: and I frequenly wake in a cold sweat wonder how I can swap engines without him noticing.

Before I get flamed for the :squid: vs. :schla15: comparison of original owners, I would like to say that I wish this 50'something was the guy who broke in my engine.

http://i127.photobuc...toAmelia046.jpg


So basically I am saying (for all the reasons that Motoman and BLS more clearly stated) that you wont have problems with an engine if you break it in by the book, but it will never fulfill it's potential for power production. But hey, what's 3-5 or even 8 horsepower worth? Break it in on the dyno.

I read an article a good few years ago about Fireblades. They put several on a dyno and tested the HP. All were still on the first owner and were less than a year old. Each owner was asked to fill out a questionaire regarding the break-in procedure followed. The results from this test showed the bikes that were pushed a bit harder, I dont mean thrashed, did in fact produce more power. the difference from the biggest HP to the smallest was a staggering 15HP!!

I do think BLS is on the money but not sure I would be happy to break it in on a Dyno. Varying rpm, well up into the higher ranges, not constant throttle is definitely the way to go.

Bren

[image: View Post]cornercarver, on Mar 24 2009, 07:09 AM, said:

[image: View Post]Bruckner, on Mar 23 2009, 06:04 PM, said:

I think it doesn't much matter how you run the engine, intuitively I would think running the wheels off of it as you would on a track could be counter-productive but that can't be done on the street. The manufacturer would provide instructions if necessary, Honda wouldn't risk having to replace improperly broken-in engines under warranty if a specific procedure was needed.

This said, we all over-do it with our bikes, changing oil way more often than needed and doing all sorts of other maintenance items more frequently than Honda conservatively specified. I don't see anything wrong with this!

Regards,
Bruckner

This is the misconception that I had for years as well. But think about it from another angle, it's not that Honda will have to replace improperly broken in engines, it's just that these engines will not perform at the highest level.

Sounds good, although as with anything else I would stick to instructions provided by Honda. I'm a mechanical conservative, seems to me the people who designed these machines know how they work best. The number of conflicting theories I heard about these different breaking-in methods (let alone the requirement for a specific break-in procedure) make me doubt whether anything else than instructions provided by the manufacturer should be trusted. Is there anything about this in the owner's manual?

The statistical variance in engine output could be due to a number of things, singling out break-in as a determining factor is something that belongs to mechanical faith rather than hard science. All this IMO obviously!

Regards,
Bruckner

Everybody has they own opinion on how to break motors in. Mike Wheeler from Rogue RC51 website wrote a nice how to. I believe Mike is now working for Kyle Racing.



Break In Procedures

When I break-in a bike I try to follow a very serious order of operations & so far I have had very good success with it. My last 3 new bikes have always dynoed at the upper end of the horsepower scale when compared to the same model bikes on the same dyno.

These are the guidelines I use for all my new bikes:

Lots of heat cycles! run it & let it cool off, run it & let it cool off.

#1 rule is never maintain a steady speed during break-in. Always keep the revs going up & down. Nothing is worse on a new bike than putting miles on it at a steady rpm especially on the interstate.

For the 1st 150 miles I take it real easy never exceeding 75% of the redline(i.e if redline is 10,000 then I would not go over 7500) I take extra special care to listen for as well as feel any anomalies in the valvetrain and driveline. I am also very smooth on the throttle no jerky movements or ham fisted off & ons & I never hold the throttle at the higher rpms if I go to 7500rpm I immediately shift & bring the rpms back down.

From 150 to 250 miles I try to liven up the process by introducing brief spurts up to 90% of the redline, but once again I never stay there immediately bring the revs back down & maybe once or twice run it to the redzone & back down but don't hit the hard limiter.

250 to 600 miles It's spirited riding, but still making sure to keep the rpms fluctuating & I routinely take it up to close to redline without hitting the hard limiter.

600 miles I change the oil & inspect it thoroughly, hell I even cut open my oil filters & look LOL

600-1200 miles normal riding but still with caution & smoothness in my actions & I still try to vary my rpms on the highway even though by now that's damn near impossible cause I'm usually commuting to different rides.

After 1200 miles I flog it, wheelies & top end bursts, but I still don't hold it wide open for any real duration of time until around 1500-1700 miles.

Many RC51 Owners have commented that they have followed these instructions & their personal results were right along the results I have reported in that their bikes also produced dyno charts that were at the upper end of the scale for power output of similarly or identically equipped machines. There is no guarantee that my way works nor any scientific tests to prove it, but commonsense & the dyno results should go a long way in helping you to decide what is the best way to break your bike in properly.



A couple other notes:

Yes there are professional tuners out there that recommend that you flog the hell out of the bike right from the start to instantly seat the rings etc & yes I will admit that those bikes have in many cases produced a little more peak horsepower initially, but what everyone fails to realize is that those professional race tuners are going to end up rebuilding that motor at least once if not twice a season (sometimes more often than that) & they don't care if engine wear is accelerated or not. Most of us want a reliable good performing motor & my break-in procedures will give you that. I've been doing this for many years & living in Memphis have seen many bikes bought in the afternoon & being dragraced that evening & they always end up smoking within about 1500 miles.

The aviation industry has without a doubt the most explicit & detailed break-in procedures for internal combustion motors. The reason for this is that they MUST be reliable as an engine failure in the air has the potential to be alot more dangerous than an engine failure on the ground. Their engine break-in regimens consist of many of the exact same key elements that mine do. Heat cycles, no initial steady rpms & ever increasing rpm peaks.

One final note is that even though the engine may be broke in properly many times the transmission still takes longer. It is not uncommon for a motorcycle transmission to need 1800-2000 miles to get fully broke-in & during that time is susceptible to accelerated wear just as the motors are. You may even notice that the more miles you put on your bike the better the transmission starts to work. During break-in keep your shifts solid & smooth, use the clutch for both upshifts/downshifts & just generally be aware that all new metal parts need time to bed in properly.

[image: View Post]Bruckner, on Mar 24 2009, 12:54 PM, said:

Sounds good, although as with anything else I would stick to instructions provided by Honda. I'm a mechanical conservative, seems to me the people who designed these machines know how they work best. The number of conflicting theories I heard about these different breaking-in methods (let alone the requirement for a specific break-in procedure) make me doubt whether anything else than instructions provided by the manufacturer should be trusted. Is there anything about this in the owner's manual?

That's just it... there is no evidence that the same engineers who designed the machine are the ones
who scribed the owners manual... actually the manual reads like lawyers had a hand in the text...
However the engineers and designers did scribe the shop manual... and there are no break in steps for
new engines like there are listed in the owners manual...

I lived in Japan for 3 years and I made the pilgrimage to every Honda factory on the Island... They
would build a bike in 12 minutes then run it to red line on the rollers you see in the pic... it's not bike
abuse but doing what's need to seat the rings in accordance with the engineers and designers... after
the run a worker would install the pouch with the owners manual that out lines break in contrary to
what the engineers believed to be true and what just took place... so yea who are you going to trust???

http://home.comcast.net/~netters2/pics11-3-03/bigimages/12MinToRedline.JPG

Everyone keeps mentioning do what honda says, do you know what Honda says?


In the latest manuals, they say (take care in the first 300 mile)

That is the breakin procedure

[image: View Post]spud786, on Mar 24 2009, 05:29 PM, said:

Everyone keeps mentioning do what honda says, do you know what Honda says?


In the latest manuals, they say (take care in the first 300 mile)

That is the breakin procedure
Pretty much

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5006/breakit.jpg

I do a modified motoman, mostly because written like this it was easier to follow. I did this with my GSX-R1000 and it dynoed really really well which could have been just chance.

http://www.fjr1300.info/breakin.html

My 2� on the "break in".

I agree with BLS and the rest of you concerning seating of the rings and getting a good ring to cylinder wall seal.

However, rings and cylinder walls are not the only things you are breaking in. You're breaking in big end bearings, wrist pins, main bearings, camshafts, valve/valve guides, camshaft buckets inside the cylinder head, transmission bearings, gears, water pumps, oil pumps, etc. There's a lot more parts whirling around inside an engine than just pistons and piston rings. Even the chain and sprockets/wheel bearings, etc need to break in.

I follow the manufacturer's recommendations. I understand where BLS and Motorman are coming from, I'm just saying there's the entire engine to consider. I like the heat cycle up and down method also.

As an aside to this: my wife will crank up her Mazda on a cold winter morning, get it good and warm, and then take off. I tell her to take easy the first 5 miles or so. Those wheel bearings, transmission bearings, transaxle bearings, etc are still ice cold. They like a little TLC too.

But then I could be wrong.

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on Mar 24 2009, 06:58 PM, said:

You're breaking in big end bearings, wrist pins, main bearings, camshafts, valve/valve guides, camshaft buckets inside the cylinder head, transmission bearings, gears, water pumps, oil pumps, etc. There's a lot more parts whirling around inside an engine than just pistons and piston rings. Even the chain and sprockets/wheel bearings, etc need to break in.

There is no need to break in big end bearings / wrist pins / main bearings / cams / gears etc...
you're talking about parts that are seprated by an either a hydrodynamic or boundary layer of oil... if
oil fails to reach these parts and they do touch then destructive marks are immediate... the first
degrees of rotation during engine start produce greater wear than steady running... because oil takes
time to be pump into the critical areas... that when your additive package works to separate parts...

I mentioned there are two basic types of lubrication that oil must provide: hydrodynamic and boundary.

Hydrodynamic-lubricated parts are separated by an oil film. Moving parts create a wedge of lubricant
that produces enough pressure within the film to separate the surfaces. This is the hydroplane effect.
Crankshaft journal bearings, for example, are hydrodynamically lubricated.

Boundary lubrication occurs where the oil film is not sufficient to separate metal parts. This occurs
in high load areas such as cam lobes and gears, and piston rings when they stop at dead center
positions. The surfactant and chemical properties of the lubricant, and the chemical properties of the
solid surfaces determine friction and wear.

Boundary lubricants form a solid film on the part which prevents metal-to-metal contact. The boundary
lubricant properties of the oil are chiefly determined by the additive package that is added to the oil.

The oil must provide lubrication to metal parts that are not separated by a film of oil. Additives that
provide boundary lubrication are known as "Extreme Pressure" (EP) lubricants. All EP lubricants are
either sulfur, phosphorous, or chlorine compounds and are used to prevent adhesive wear.

Practically all oils use Zinc Dithiophosphates (ZnDTP). ZnDTP is the most common metal deactivator,
oxidation inhibitor, and EP anti wear additive in use. This has been the best and most successful oil
additive available and is universally used in oils.

[/quote]

The statistical variance in engine output could be due to a number of things, singling out break-in as a determining factor is something that belongs to mechanical faith rather than hard science. All this IMO obviously!

Regards,
Bruckner
[/quote]


Good points made Bruckner. I just choose to put my "mechanical faith" to the test instead of trusting the "hard science" of the corporate attorneys who wordsmith the owners manuals in our increasingly litigious societys.

And those pix on motomans site are really cool. ;)

[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on Mar 24 2009, 04:41 PM, said:

That's just it... there is no evidence that the same engineers who designed the machine are the ones
who scribed the owners manual... actually the manual reads like lawyers had a hand in the text...
However the engineers and designers did scribe the shop manual... and there are no break in steps for
new engines like there are listed in the owners manual...

Well.. you may not trust Honda's lawyer talk, I'll speak for myself, who am I to speculate on who writes these service manuals? If I ever feel justified to question the validity of Honda's instructions on its own products, for sure I'll be even more scrupulous of random tuners/builders, especially when no two of them come up with similar conclusions.

I simply don't see how the input of attorneys would get Honda to censure a break-in procedure required for optimal performance. If we start having doubts about everything that Honda writes in its literature because it has legal implications, we're in trouble.

I guess only Mr. Honda has the answer, but he won't give it. Out of the different versions out there, Honda's instructions may be strangely simple, I wouldn't advise anything to anyone since I'm no expert, but the team of Honda engineers/lawyers is the best I can trust.

This solves nothing I know! :)

Regards,
Bruckner

BLS - You are obviously the smartest man in the room. Thank you so much for the informative write up.

I wonder though what the effects of break in are on the ceramic doped cylinder walls and hard-lubricant coated pistons on the VTEC models?

On a related note - I bought my bike used from a Honda sales person who spoke with an engineer who worked on the VFR. When asked about break-in the engineer laughed and said, The engine won't even loosen up for 25,000 miles. Don't worry about it. I normally don't believe sales people, but he was a VFR owner :) My bike actually seems to be getting faster as it gets broken in. It's at 14k miles.

Edit: misspelled 'smartest' doh!

[image: View Post]Bruckner, on Mar 25 2009, 12:40 PM, said:

Well.. you may not trust Honda's lawyer talk, I'll speak for myself, who am I to speculate on who writes these service manuals? If I ever feel justified to question the validity of Honda's instructions on its own products, for sure I'll be even more scrupulous of random tuners/builders, especially when no two of them come up with similar conclusions.

I simply don't see how the input of attorneys would get Honda to censure a break-in procedure required for optimal performance. If we start having doubts about everything that Honda writes in its literature because it has legal implications, we're in trouble.

I guess only Mr. Honda has the answer, but he won't give it. Out of the different versions out there, Honda's instructions may be strangely simple, I wouldn't advise anything to anyone since I'm no expert, but the team of Honda engineers/lawyers is the best I can trust.

This solves nothing I know! :)

Regards,
Bruckner

It's not about solving anything and the point being made is that as many opinions exist on the best tire or best oil for an application, so to do many opinions exist on the best break in procedure. I think it is very cool that Skopone is getting a brand new VFR and get's to break it in himself. I also thought that since he was open to suggestion that he may have an open enough mind to review motoman's break in procedure. I couldn't find the link for my op but by then BLS had posted it.

Regarding your quote "I simply don't see how the input of attorneys would get Honda to censure a break-in procedure required for optimal performance." my response is, "Really?" (but you have to say it like Jimmy Fallon from SNL otherwise i sound like an a$$) Let's set aside for a second that sphincter-clenching moment that every attorney at every major motorcycle manufacturer must have whenever a mere mention is made of the fact that any kid with the money (or financing) can walk into a dealership and purchase a ZX-14, Hayabusa, CBR-1000 or whatever you desire for making the telephone poles look like a picket fence regardless of their riding ability or inability. Now think about the proper break in procedure if you choose to not use a dyno:

"VERY IMPORTANT -- Get the bike up to operating temps first.

Using 1/2 throttle, run from 4,000 to 6,000 rpm, then roll the throttle off completely until the rpms drop back to 4,000. Do this in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear. Ride normally for a few miles.

Using 3/4 throttle, run from 4,000 to 7,500 rpm, then roll the throttle off completely until the rpms drop back to 4,000. Do this in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear. Ride normally for a few miles.

Using full throttle, run from 3,000 to redline, then roll the throttle off completely until the rpms drop back to 3,000. Do this in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear. Ride normally for a few miles.

After 20 miles on the odometer, change the oil and oil filter, using "normal" petroleum oil (not synthetic). Let the bike cool down for at least 1/2 hour before riding again.

Ride the bike for another hour, followed by another complete cooldown. "

What kind of speeds are generated by even a 600 sport bike today at redline in 3rd gear? Triple digits are no problem. Now you are a smart 18 year old kid who's bike didnt burst into flames and explode during a proper break in ride so you were just slammed onto the hood of a patrol car, ticketed and made to feel like crap for endangering the lives of everyone on the planet with your :squid: like behavior and generally distasteful appearance and music preferences.

You show up to court with Honda's Owner Manual from your newly purchased bike and show the judge the reason you were going 80 over (135 in a 55 - two lane back roads you know so as to stay off the interstate and away from the constant rpm). I think every corporate attorney wants to avoid that scenario. So the latest manuals say "take care first 300 miles..." or something like that. It is a good idea also to help get familiar with the bike instead of blasting off at red line in 3rd gear.

Bottom line for me (and since the original post asked for advice - I offered) is that many people swear by the mfg's recommendations without any reason why except "They made the bike/car/truck/lawn mower/snow mobile/weed wacker/chainsaw/cement mixer so they must know better than anyone else." There is evidence that the market for intelligence has not been cornered by the mfg's, other opinions can be valid and especially when backed up by realworld results. I offered my informed opinion to Skopone for him to further investigate and make a more informed decision. I am not trying to hurt anyones feelings, merely to inform and stimulate thought and discussion.

Now, on the next topic, Keith Code or Freddie Spencer? To counter steer only or not at all, what is the best way to carve a series of corners? :offtopic:

:lurk:

[image: View Post]cornercarver, on Mar 25 2009, 12:44 PM, said:

Bottom line for me (and since the original post asked for advice - I offered) is that many people swear by the mfg's recommendations without any reason why except "They made the bike/car/truck/lawn mower/snow mobile/weed wacker/chainsaw/cement mixer so they must know better than anyone else."

We all have our reasons, and this one speaks absolute logic to me.

We all wanted to offer advice in the same spirit of helpful discussion, seemed to me that this debate would have been incomplete without a conservative point of view. This said, I make no apology for having strong faith in Honda's engineering and accompanying service literature. To suggest that this faith is an insufficient motive to justify following manufacturer's instructions is a point of view I respectfully disagree with.

Regards,
Bruckner

[image: View Post]canib, on Mar 25 2009, 10:30 AM, said:

BLS � You are obviously the smarted man in the room. Thank you so much for the informative write up.

You're welcome...

[image: View Post]Bruckner, on Mar 25 2009, 09:40 AM, said:

I simply don't see how the input of attorneys would get Honda to censure a break-in procedure required for optimal performance.

If you wish to enjoy optimal performance then I suggest you find a good tuner because you
sure ain't going to find the anwers in the owners manual...

[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on Mar 25 2009, 11:51 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Bruckner, on Mar 25 2009, 09:40 AM, said:

I simply don't see how the input of attorneys would get Honda to censure a break-in procedure required for optimal performance.

If you wish to enjoy optimal performance then I suggest you find a good tuner because you
sure ain't going to find the anwers in the owners manual...

Very well. If I want to tune the engine, I'll find a good tuner. If I need to break an engine in, I'll follow Honda's instructions. That is until some consensus is achieved on a better way to do this. Fair enough?

Regards,
Bruckner

[image: View Post]Bruckner, on Mar 26 2009, 07:45 AM, said:

Very well. If I want to tune the engine, I'll find a good tuner. If I need to break an engine in, I'll follow Honda's instructions. That is until some consensus is achieved on a better way to do this. Fair enough?

Regards,
Bruckner


Fair enough... but I think there is an consensus... the Honda Factory
and Motorman go about it in the same fashion whereas the owners manual
follows a different path... the difference is time... the Factory and
Motoman break in the rings in the lease amount of time whereas the
manual breaks in the ring in the most amount of time...

How do you know if break in is done??? take a compression test... if your
engine shows factory compression then break in is complete... if your
engine shows less than factory compression then more break in is
require... how long you take is up to you... you can do it quickly in
accordance with the Honda Factory and Motorman... or do it slowly in
accordance with the owners manual... the difference being the lawyers
prefer you take it easy whereas the engineers prefer you do it
quickly...

Us...I mean...those damn engineers. They think they know everything. :goofy:

Good write up BLS and RustyA. Having done some design work (and implementation myself on non-engine related projects) I know the amount of work and research that goes into such ventures from an engineer's point of view. In the end a good engineer will know the system inside and out. What works and what doesn't. With that knowledge you can bet I would do what said engineer would instruct. :fing02:

Oh, and most manuals are written by a department/person completely dedicated to technical writing. Most are never even involved in the developmental process. Heck, I always compare the Honda manual to the How-To's on this site and find the How-To's easier to follow. In the end I just use the manual for torque data. But that's just me. ;)

[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on Mar 26 2009, 10:40 AM, said:

Fair enough... but I think there is an consensus... the Honda Factory
and Motorman go about it in the same fashion whereas the owners manual
follows a different path... the difference is time... the Factory and
Motoman break in the rings in the lease amount of time whereas the
manual breaks in the ring in the most amount of time...

Interesting. What do you mean by "Honda Factory"? The technique you witnessed at the factory? I'd be curious to know why VFRs aren't properly broken-in at the factory as they do with other models as you report. Do dealers receive instructions from Honda when putting oil in and starting up for the first couple of times before handing out to customers?

Regards,
Bruckner

[image: View Post]Bruckner, on Mar 26 2009, 12:02 PM, said:

Interesting. What do you mean by "Honda Factory"? The technique you witnessed at the factory? I'd be curious to know why VFRs aren't properly broken-in at the factory as they do with other models as you report. Do dealers receive instructions from Honda when putting oil in and starting up for the first couple of times before handing out to customers?

Regards,
Bruckner

Yes the technique I witnessed at the factory is routine for all their street bikes... in fact their top of
line bike at that time was the CBX and it rolled into a green dyno room and ran untill it produced full
power... I gather full power is still import but it's not the top of the line...

Well... you don't know if your VFR is properly broken from the factory untill it passes a compression
test...

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/uploads/1203008119/gallery_3131_51_2523.jpg

I've just bought a brand new 09 vfr and am running it in. The salesman at the dealers said to 'take it easy with no full throttle blasts in gear, and don't go over 6K rpms until it's had it's 600 mile service'. I've tried to find out the best way to run it in, but as with most things you ask 10 people and get 10 different answers, so I'll just stick to what they said.

I'm fairly new to bikes and find the same problem when you ask 'the best way to clean a bike' or 'how often to lube the chain' you never get a consensus, very confusing. :huh:

Salesmen know best :)

[image: View Post]newvfr2009, on Mar 29 2009, 03:33 PM, said:

I've just bought a brand new 09 vfr and am running it in. The salesman at the dealers said to 'take it easy with no full throttle blasts in gear, and don't go over 6K rpms until it's had it's 600 mile service'. I've tried to find out the best way to run it in, but as with most things you ask 10 people and get 10 different answers, so I'll just stick to what they said.

I'm fairly new to bikes and find the same problem when you ask 'the best way to clean a bike' or 'how often to lube the chain' you never get a consensus, very confusing. :huh:

My vfr was at 9,000 rpm in the first 10 mile, 56,000 miles, no valve check, no oil use , mint motor running

Oohps forgot the Leaded race fuel diet also

[image: View Post]spud786, on Mar 24 2009, 05:29 PM, said:

Everyone keeps mentioning do what honda says, do you know what Honda says?


In the latest manuals, they say (take care in the first 300 mile)

That is the breakin procedure

DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/rrwacko/breakin.jpg

[image: View Post]newvfr2009, on Mar 29 2009, 02:33 PM, said:

I've just bought a brand new 09 vfr and am running it in. The salesman at the dealers said to 'take it easy with no full throttle blasts in gear, and don't go over 6K rpms until it's had it's 600 mile service'. I've tried to find out the best way to run it in, but as with most things you ask 10 people and get 10 different answers, so I'll just stick to what they said.

I'm fairly new to bikes and find the same problem when you ask 'the best way to clean a bike' or 'how often to lube the chain' you never get a consensus, very confusing. :huh:

Try reading the owners manual. It tells you everything you need to know.

[image: View Post]newvfr2009, on Mar 29 2009, 01:33 PM, said:

I've just bought a brand new 09 vfr and am running it in. The salesman at the dealers said to 'take it easy with no full throttle blasts in gear, and don't go over 6K rpms until it's had it's 600 mile service'. I've tried to find out the best way to run it in, but as with most things you ask 10 people and get 10 different answers, so I'll just stick to what they said.

I'm fairly new to bikes and find the same problem when you ask 'the best way to clean a bike' or 'how often to lube the chain' you never get a consensus, very confusing. :huh:

It is confusing because there are no standards in motorcycling...
there are standard in aviation... talk to plane owners and there is an
consensus on engine run in... how to clean... when to lube... why even
their choice of oil is regulated by the Federal Government... but
after 44 years I've learned that the sport of motorcycling resist any
kind of standard... instead it works off heresy and old myths... like
someone at some point in time rev over 6K and disaster happened...
well I've spent my life getting to the bottom of the those old
myths... there's the factual cause and then there is the believed
cause... and people are spring loaded to their beliefs rather than
facts...

The salesman who said don't go over 6K never visited the Honda factory
where the bike was born in 12 minutes and watched it run to red
line...

I am dying to rev it and feel/hear the vtec kick in. :biggrin:

But will stick to the gentle approach and keep it under 6k revs :mad:

I've only got another 200 miles until the 600 mile service anyway :cool:

[image: View Post]newvfr2009, on Mar 30 2009, 05:29 AM, said:

I am dying to rev it and feel/hear the vtec kick in. :biggrin:

But will stick to the gentle approach and keep it under 6k revs :mad:

I've only got another 200 miles until the 600 mile service anyway :cool:

Kick it and wick it... it's already been to red line...

when i bough my 2006 i ask the salesman, who ws also the owner of the dealership i asked him about break in !
this is his response: ride it hard dont worry about rev go to 10k + it s no problem ,but just dont do constant rev riding
move that trottle and change gear often dont forget to change oil at the recomended time !!! :goofy:

i did so and it was a blast 1400 km the first 3 days :fing02:

I have 29 easy miles on my 2008 VFR. How effective would Motoman's technique be if I started it now? Would it make any difference?