I'm hoping that I will be able to sort this issue out - I've had a lot to be honest and I'm surprised I've still got this bike with my impulsive ways, but I do really love this bike, its sound, its killer looks/best colour bike I've ever had, I've been to some beautiful places - two-up but now she is mis-behaving again (the bike that is)
SURGING!!
I've got my 02 plugs (the proper ones) and the bike has only just started doing this, mostly between the 30-35mph in second gear, the bike lurches, hesitates and stumbles and it's more noticeable with a pillion - It's never done this before and the bike is usually silky smooth � I�m just shy off 20,000 miles now and I got her 11 months ago with around 6.
I've searched the forum with no real definitive answers, any ideas guys? Can you save me from parting with this one once and for all ;p
[image: View Post]magicman, on Apr 9 2009, 02:46 PM, said:
[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on Apr 9 2009, 08:28 AM, said:
PC3 + Cozye's map. Enjoy.
And get that thermostat fixed if you haven't. :laugh:
I simply can't afford it at the minute, I've so far spent over �400 on new tyres, service, fluids etc
I've been recommended to try cleaning up the 02 plugs and/or try the original 02 sensors again for comparative tests to see if the bike still behaves the same.
Its odd that the bike has just started doing it, I've never had this issue before.
Personally, Steve, I wouldn't run the O2 sensor eliminators without the Power Commander installed. There are a couple mods you can do in place of adding a PC, so you might try those first.
I agree with Tim C. The only reason to run the O2 eliminators is if you are going to use a PC III. And if you get a PCIII, you will definately want to try Cozye's map. Running O2 eliminators alone could add to your woes.
Also, surging could be a sign that you need to sync your starter valves.
Have you tried disabling PAIR system? Try it. It improved mine.
Also, I have recently installed O2 eliminators and did not like the results.
I ended up simply unplugging the plugs from the O2s w/o using resistors - Try that too, but you will have the FI light. It doesn't bother me, so I ride like that.
[image: View Post]vfr_steve, on Apr 9 2009, 06:49 AM, said:
Hey everyone!! 1st off.. SPRING IS HERE!!! :beer:
Right, down to business...
I'm hoping that I will be able to sort this issue out - I've had a lot to be honest and I'm surprised I've still got this bike with my impulsive ways, but I do really love this bike, its sound, its killer looks/best colour bike I've ever had, I've been to some beautiful places - two-up but now she is mis-behaving again (the bike that is)
SURGING!!
I've got my 02 plugs (the proper ones) and the bike has only just started doing this, mostly between the 30-35mph in second gear, the bike lurches, hesitates and stumbles and it's more noticeable with a pillion - It's never done this before and the bike is usually silky smooth � I'm just shy off 20,000 miles now and I got her 11 months ago with around 6.
I've searched the forum with no real definitive answers, any ideas guys? Can you save me from parting with this one once and for all ;p
Thanks if you're still here :)
Wait, do you mean "02 plugs" as in sensors or eliminators? Like everyone else said, no need to run eliminators without PCII or III. If your sensors are good (you can probably test them with an ohmeter or a multimeter) then check your starter valve and pair system-- like they already said.
If they're good, then check to see if you have a vacuum leak perhaps?
Yes I mean the 02 elminators - I'm going to unplug them and put the original sensors back in and see if there's any difference or even just unplug them all together but I think after a while the FI light would niggle me... why would this issue suddenly occur now? I would of thought if I needed the PC it would of played up from the start.
I've also considered it may be the start valves, at least that's what Honda would say if I ring them.
I had the same problem with my '02 recently, with 25,000kms.
Turned out the cable leading to the positive terminal was making intermittent contact with the post. Tightened everything, trickle-charged the battery, and she's smooth as English toffee now.
A "no brainer" solution that might be worth checking...
[image: View Post]Worldrider, on Apr 15 2009, 07:02 AM, said:
I had the same problem with my '02 recently, with 25,000kms.
Turned out the cable leading to the positive terminal was making intermittent contact with the post. Tightened everything, trickle-charged the battery, and she's smooth as English toffee now.
A "no brainer" solution that might be worth checking...
Thats's a new one.. thanks for the suggestion I'll have a look :fing02:
Good luck with your surging issues. That is one of the primary issues i got rid of my VFR. I couldn't stand the surging. Sometimes the bike was great, no problems. Other times it'd get so bad the thing wouldn't maintain a constant speed.
Actually running 02 eliminators by themselves will help richen up whatever rpm range they work in by preventing the CPU from leaning out the mixture in these rpm's ranges. IMO Most driveability issues with our VFR's are lean condition related, so in general anyway you can richen up the mixture the better. Wether that's with a PCIII, HPFP or 02's. :blush:
Aftermarket exhaust and filters only make the condition(lean) worse. :cool:
[image: View Post]tpierce(MP), on Apr 16 2009, 02:43 PM, said:
Good luck with your surging issues. That is one of the primary issues i got rid of my VFR. I couldn't stand the surging. Sometimes the bike was great, no problems. Other times it'd get so bad the thing wouldn't maintain a constant speed.
Thanks, well today I had the side panel off and cleaned the 02 plugs, I even had them off whilst I went for a ride (but the FI light stayed off?) and the bloody thing started surging again like mad...
I'm now soooo close to pulling the trigger on this 5th gen.. I had two before which I sold before I had chance to get used to it and since there no other bike that fits me like a VFR (and budget wise)..
[image: View Post]Baileyrock, on Apr 16 2009, 03:16 PM, said:
Actually running 02 eliminators by themselves will help richen up whatever rpm range they work in by preventing the CPU from leaning out the mixture in these rpm's ranges. IMO Most driveability issues with our VFR's are lean condition related, so in general anyway you can richen up the mixture the better. Wether that's with a PCIII, HPFP or 02's. :blush:
Aftermarket exhaust and filters only make the condition(lean) worse. :cool:
Hey BR, so I guess my Bos system isn't helping matters much.. what you think to this 5th gen? (I know what you're thinking but I have lasted a year with this bike) :biggrin:
It has a scott oiler, alarm .. she has done 27500 miles and the pipes look a bit rotten in places, I know somebody who could do me a good deal on some stainless ones... what you think?
You gotta do what you feel comfortable with, but for what it's worth, my '02 was surging all the time when I bought it in '04. I rode it for a year and then took the collective advice of VFRD and bought a PCIII with O2 eliminators, and used Cozye's map. I could not be happier. The bike is smooth as butter in the lower RPM's and pulls hard all the way to the red line. Even the VTEC transition is smooth. Good luck whatever way you go.
[image: View Post]TimC, on Apr 9 2009, 01:29 PM, said:
Personally, Steve, I wouldn't run the O2 sensor eliminators without the Power Commander installed. There are a couple mods you can do in place of adding a PC, so you might try those first.
The first mod I made was to eliminate the O2 sensors. It fixed my surging problem. It seems like the results are mixed, works for some people and not for others. I'm mechanically handicapped, but was able to do the $0.99 mod very easily.
Now I'm also running the TurboCity Fuel Pressure Regulator. Kinda a poor man's version of a PCiii. ......I don't need a fancy map, just jack up the fuel pressure everywhere. :blush:
[image: View Post]gradus, on Apr 16 2009, 11:01 AM, said:
Now I'm also running the TurboCity Fuel Pressure Regulator. Kinda a poor man's version of a PCiii. ......I don't need a fancy map, just jack up the fuel pressure everywhere. :blush:
:+1:
Same here.
My surging was BAD when stock.
Now it is nonexistent.
I have PAIR, TurboCity FPR and O2 unplugged.
It drinks gas like mad, but doesn't surge.
When I took off the left fairing (a job in itself after riding the bike through a harsh Winter) I expected to see the 02 Eliminator plugs but no such thing, just the sensors plugged in as stock, so I unplugged them but the FI light wouldn't light up when I rode the bike without them in - The bike still rode the same by the way, bogging down as it did before in 2nd gear at 4500rpm.
It's probably also worth mentioning that I have never had any surging issues with my bike until very recently
[image: View Post]vfr_steve, on Apr 16 2009, 02:42 PM, said:
OK
When I took off the left fairing (a job in itself after riding the bike through a harsh Winter) I expected to see the 02 Eliminator plugs but no such thing, just the sensors plugged in as stock, so I unplugged them but the FI light wouldn't light up when I rode the bike without them in - The bike still rode the same by the way, bogging down as it did before in 2nd gear at 4500rpm.
It's probably also worth mentioning that I have never had any surging issues with my bike until very recently
I think we're getting closer here.
The FI light must light up if you unplug O2s.
It seems that your ECU may be faulty and not even capable of reading your sensors.
No wonder you're surging.
I would go to the stealer and explain the situation.
They should be able to diagnose the problem.
If they determine that your ECU needs replacement, buy one on ebay and replace it yourself. The dealer will probably charge you more than the bike's worth for the new one.
The only consern is the reason why it went bad in the first place.
If you have a short in the system somewhere that burned it out, you may end up burning the "new" one as well.
It's a tough one.
BUT at least there is a path to solving this problem.
[image: View Post]Rice, on Apr 16 2009, 11:26 AM, said:
:+1:
Same here.
My surging was BAD when stock.
Now it is nonexistent.
I have PAIR, TurboCity FPR and O2 unplugged.
It drinks gas like mad, but doesn't surge.
Yeah, mine drinks some gas. Riding with 2 friends, we topped off at the same time and refilled after 160 miles. VFR = 4.5 gallons, RC51 = 3.5 gallons, SV650S = 3.1 gallons. We were in the mountains, but that's only 35mpg for the VFR.
As soon as I get payed I'm going to order a new T-stat and get my local dealer to fit it, and perhaps if it's not too much more get them to look at my starter valves :rolleyes:
... I guess I'll report back what happens, but it will be a couple of weeks or so yet.
[image: View Post]Bruckner, on Apr 17 2009, 04:13 AM, said:
Out of curiosity, how would a faulty thermostat lead to surging?
In any case, a competent Honda mechanic (they DO exist!) should be able to diagnose the problem quickly.
Regards,
Bruckner
Hi Bruckner, well the t-stat is a seperate issue that I really need to get fixed and it can't help matters when the bike stays in 'warm up mode' longer as it's not getting to full temperature (unless I let it sit for a while and then the temp goes back down to 63-70C), but from what I've been told and researched I think the starter valves should go a long way to curing the issues that only just started this last month.. I hope :blink:
Just to report even my girlfriend riding pillion today thought I was messing about with the throttle when in 30 and 40 zones because the bike is surging THAT bad now :blink:
oh and not sure if this is related but the bike pops and bangs more on overun than it used to, I kinda like it, but I think the bike may be giving us a clue.. Running too rich??
[image: View Post]vfr_steve, on Apr 17 2009, 03:03 PM, said:
Just to report even my girlfriend riding pillion today thought I was messing about with the throttle when in 30 and 40 zones because the bike is surging THAT bad now :blink:
oh and not sure if this is related but the bike pops and bangs more on overun than it used to, I kinda like it, but I think the bike may be giving us a clue.. Running too rich??
Again, it seems like your ECU is not doing its job.
It's probably stuck in the "limp home" mode or just fried.
Ask dealer to look into this.
I cant be too specific with my advice, but Im going to share what I know at this point, now that the season has been here again for a few weeks, and ive goten some miles in.
My bike has always had the surge...before and after doing the starter valves, any type of fuel, spark plugs are always fresh, etc. However, i have not felt it once yet this year, after about 1000 miles, when i used to feel it constantly including all of last year right up until the thing was parked for the season. The only things that are different on my bike since last year are that over the winter, i installed a new battery, moved the velocity stacks to their correct location (I proudly ended the debate last year of where they were to be placed as some of you may know, by contacting Honda directly). I also changed spark plugs this winter, and believe it or not, I also indexed them as long as I was doing them. (now THATs anal).
I cannot say that any one of these things that are now different on the bike was actually the solution to the surging, but all i can say is that it has not surged at all this year, but Ill be putting some miles on this weekend in warm temperatures, so Ill see if the surging is still gone.
I have heard of weak batteries causing issues with running on certain bikes, cars, etc. Your battery can appear to start the bike fine, etc...but that doesnt tell the whole story. Our bikes use a AGM type battery, which dont recover as well from sitting or after going dead or low. Mine had died a couple times last year just from me either keepign the key on too long, or neglecting it over winter or time. That is why i replaced it, just for peace of mind, and to make things easier on the charging system.
I indexed the plugs just out mainly boredom, and because its fairly easy to do. This may have something to do with the lack of surging this year for me, but more likely it's just a coincidence. You shouldnt have to index plugs to remedy a running issue....nor will it ever result in any noticable running gains. BUT, again....all i can say is that i havent noted any surging at all this season yet, where prior to this winter and the small things done to the bike, id feel it every time i rode at slower speeds, steady slight throttle.
I should also add too, regarding something i posted about last year...
Riding one night through OshKosh last summer, at speeds about 25-30mph. I had noted that the usual surge had been a bit more apparent than normal for a few minutes. After noting that, the bike got to the point where it was acting like it was running out of gas, and I was making mental preparations to be pulling over shortly with a dead bike. It never quite happened; it just idled super low at stop lights, and would sputter and struggle when i revved it up. As i got out of town it seemed to improve slightly, and rode it the rest of the way home (about 60 miles). It never felt 100% on the ride home; seemed like it had poor throttle response and was lacking a bit of power. It continued to act up just intermittently and slightly over the next couple weeks, and by then it was the end of the riding season. I havent caught a hint of any of those symptoms this year whatsoever. There were never any codes, and the issue is completely gone.
Thanks for the info Adam, I have no idea what velocity stacks are... I'm a biker who just rides my bike and I don't pay much interest to what goes on inside but this bike is making me into a mechanic!
Another thing, the bike only surges once it's up to temp, say 70-75
And the famous surging that is known on these bikes I believe usually happens at at least that temperature, and ive only noticed it at normal operating temperature. Its usually more noticable at city speeds (25-40mph) under light throttle application, at between 4-5k rpms. You may just have a severe case of this same common stumbling, or you may have something totally different going on.
The velocity stacks are under the air filter in the air box, and there's one stack for each throttle body for the air to go through. There was some debate over which ones should be placed where in their airbox, as the stacks are two different lengths. Some people swore that switchign them around caused the surge to get better, some claimed just the opposite.
But the surge shouldnt be that bad. Its noticable on most of these bikes at that certain rpm, but shouldnt be horrible. If its really that bad, then either you've got a worse case than normal, or there really is something else going on, that should be looked at.
I haven't read all of this, but I understand, at least I think I do, that you have an alarm on the bike? If you do, that could be the cause.
I had an alarm on my 98 Katana, and it used to play havoc with my battery, after removal it was a lot better. Just a thought.
My bike also has a shat load of problems, it stalls some times, it surges, it's not smooth when cruising at an even speed...etc, so I understand.
Sometimes I wanna shoot my bike and put it out of it's misery.
I don't know, I've never had to buy stuff, and mod a bike to get it working, and I've owned 5 bikes, and ridden around on 7.
Makes me wonder if it's really worth the trouble.
''Sometimes I wanna shoot my bike and put it out of it's misery'' ... That's just how I feel, this is seriously stressing me out now and I've had enough, It's going.
What in the blackbird is going on with your bike steve, in all blackbird honesty..I hate your having so many "woes" with your VFR.wish i could help but i thnk everyone else has given all the thought i have........best of luck mate
[image: View Post]JJbigbird, on Apr 18 2009, 04:43 AM, said:
What in the blackbird is going on with your bike steve, in all blackbird honesty..I hate your having so many "woes" with your VFR.wish i could help but i thnk everyone else has given all the thought i have........best of luck mate
Cheers and I thank everyone for their solid input and advice, but I shouldn't have all these issues with an 05 bike, it seems the electrics are weak, the t-stat is unreliable and the engine behaviour is just totally unacceptable, to expect to ride around town like this :blink:
I'm sure your post has some kind of Cryptic 'get a blackbird' message in there somewhere :laugh:
Suggested by a member on page 1, I noticed the screw on the positive connector appeared a little loose (no signs of arcing though) - by tightening I may have wiggled some of the leads but when I went for a nice ride with the girlfriend today...
No surging, gone... nothing, but smooth throttle response??
How can this be? :blink: :huh:
The only thing I can think of is the weather wasn't quite as warm today, but the engine temp still went up to 80C or so when in 2nd gear, 30mph, 4500rpm -
It's almost like the bike knew that I rang a dealer today planning to setup finance on a 5th gen, Remus high rise pipe, red 2001, 25,000 miles.
But now I am even more confused, I'll be riding tomorrow to see if the issue returns
That would be one of the culprits that would cause your problem,I hope it all works out for you..got to give you credit with all the problems youve been having and your still VFR LOYAL....Honda should be proud!!!! I really do hope that fixes the bike for you.....for payment of hope please export one blackbird (titanium..but color is optional) to: North Carolina, U.S....thanks!!!
[image: View Post]JJbigbird, on Apr 19 2009, 06:34 PM, said:
That would be one of the culprits that would cause your problem,I hope it all works out for you..got to give you credit with all the problems youve been having and your still VFR LOYAL....Honda should be proud!!!! I really do hope that fixes the bike for you.....for payment of hope please export one blackbird (titanium..but color is optional) to: North Carolina, U.S....thanks!!!
Cheers Big bird, I'm shopping around for a 5th gen at the moment but it seems 'fate' wants me to keep this one at least for now.
However there's a slim chance I might trade for this... what you think? (done 25,000 miles)
Hey thats a beauty!!!!! Ive always been a fan of the red 5th gens, funny how i ended up with yellow but Im not complaining!! Have you had a 5th gen out and spent some time on one??? Both the 5th and 6th have thier own + & - .....IMO I couldnt really tell you which I like better...its a toss up to me...I see a K1200s in the background, that IMO cant hold a candle to ethier gen especially when you consider $$$ to fun values!! If your bike is back to treating you right and done acting like a Harley/Ducati hibrid, Id probrably keep it, but if the woes continue...that red rocket would fill in nicely or a Blackbird!!!!
[image: View Post]JJbigbird, on Apr 22 2009, 03:39 AM, said:
Hey thats a beauty!!!!! Ive always been a fan of the red 5th gens, funny how i ended up with yellow but Im not complaining!! Have you had a 5th gen out and spent some time on one??? Both the 5th and 6th have thier own + & - .....IMO I couldnt really tell you which I like better...its a toss up to me...I see a K1200s in the background, that IMO cant hold a candle to ethier gen especially when you consider $$$ to fun values!! If your bike is back to treating you right and done acting like a Harley/Ducati hibrid, Id probrably keep it, but if the woes continue...that red rocket would fill in nicely or a Blackbird!!!!
I had a 5th gen, in green high rise Remus like this one, absolute beauty and I regret selling her so quickly but I have always liked the 6th gens better - but in terms of engine performance it's like splitting hairs. I've decided to keep mine for a while longer, I've done 20,000 on her and some great trips - I have history with this bike now and I still love ''her'' - I just need to get that T-Stat sorted out, maybe some new sparkies etc... It also makes sense for me financially to keep her for the time being.
....Ahh yes the K1200, I'm very intrigued by this bike but couple of problems, the engine sounds boring, I don't like the styling; I've heard of one too many catastrophic stories about the brake servo and rear wheel locking?
FAR too much money when the VFR does everything the K1200 does apart from being down on power in comparison.
Thanks for all your help... I'll still be on the lookout for a mint 5th gen in the future.
Glad to hear you're going to keep it and fix the things you know are wrong. You might be surprised at what seemingly unrelated issues might be from the same problem. That was pretty random about the battery though.
I hope to see a new thread in about 2 weeks thanking us for making you keep it because everything is sorted out. Don't give up!
My 05� has a quirk I have not resolved, honestly I have put no effort into solving it because the make shift solution works every time.
My 05 will surge so nasty you can hardly ride once it is fully warm if I do not reset the FI every time I start it. The reset process, or how I start my bike every time is, hit the starter the second you turn on the key, don�t let the FI cycle through its normal start up sequence. Then, turn the bike off and start it the normal way; turn on the key, let the bike cycle through the start up sequence, when that is complete press the starter.
[image: View Post]magicman, on Apr 24 2009, 06:24 PM, said:
Glad to hear you're going to keep it and fix the things you know are wrong. You might be surprised at what seemingly unrelated issues might be from the same problem. That was pretty random about the battery though.
I hope to see a new thread in about 2 weeks thanking us for making you keep it because everything is sorted out. Don't give up!
Yep I feel keeping her is the right thing to do... I would like to think I could do a Bailey and put 60-70,000 miles on this thing and ride it till it's clear of finance.. I went for a ride today on one of my favourite twisty roads, the weather felt very warm and the bike felt superb and smooth... it's amazing how much corner speed you can carry on these things - even with a topbox full of tinned food!! :laugh:
Hopefully when I sort out my T-Stat issue she will feel great ALL the time.
Ok... 2 weeks - maybe a month to be on the safe side :biggrin:
It's bad karma Steve, from lack of loyalty to a specific generation VFR... you'll have to align your chakras... I mean starter valves... hehehe.
Glad to see you spotted the cause. I wouldn't be surprised if that was it... eletrical charge problemas can make the bike run rough... I still have to give her a good long spin (next week at Tabernas Race Track (Almer�a, Andaluc�a), but I may have eliminated a surging problem I have been having at high revs, you will recall... this w/e my stator / regulator connector fried... I've spliced and soldered it all up and am getting more solid, stable readings with the multimeter... we shall see whether that's it and whether my soldering holds up... :s
The bike is a real buzz when she behaves... my stator went and it did the same things... I should probably swap out the battery and R/R but they seem to have survived... I'll see if I can get the battery tested under load... holds the charge just fine...
I would like to think I could do a Bailey and put 60-70,000 miles on this thing and ride it till it's clear of finance..
Get that issue sorted and you'll soon be saying time flies! how did I put so many miles on this thing? :491:
Edit, BTW, I have had issues of surging that turned out to be cured by replacement of a worn chain with sticky links.
Those links that don't move like they should can get you jerking back and forth. :goofy:
[image: View Post]Auspa�ol, on Apr 26 2009, 12:37 AM, said:
It's bad karma Steve, from lack of loyalty to a specific generation VFR... you'll have to align your chakras... I mean starter valves... hehehe.
Glad to see you spotted the cause. I wouldn't be surprised if that was it... eletrical charge problemas can make the bike run rough... I still have to give her a good long spin (next week at Tabernas Race Track (Almer�a, Andaluc�a), but I may have eliminated a surging problem I have been having at high revs, you will recall... this w/e my stator / regulator connector fried... I've spliced and soldered it all up and am getting more solid, stable readings with the multimeter... we shall see whether that's it and whether my soldering holds up... :s
The bike is a real buzz when she behaves... my stator went and it did the same things... I should probably swap out the battery and R/R but they seem to have survived... I'll see if I can get the battery tested under load... holds the charge just fine...
I fully understand your frustration...
Hey buddy, yep I'm half relieved and half puzzled but ever since she is running like a dream (apart from the engine running too cool in the morning and at night); I hope you sort out your issues up higher on the tac, strange issue and believe it or not I've never had that problem yet (touch wood) :laugh:
But yes it's a miracle, I've still got the damn thing - Taking her up to the Lake District next month so I hope to get the t-stat sorted before then.
Get that issue sorted and you'll soon be saying time flies! how did I put so many miles on this thing?
Thanks I will do my best not to be distracted by the power of the XX or the temptations of just a ''new to me'' bike. I've actually learned in the last few weeks that the 5th gen also suffers from the eletrical issues, including stuck thermostats - although I'd say it's not so noticable on the 5th gens as they don't have the VTEC system to amplify the effects of a cold engine.
