I've Discovered The Holy Grail Of 6th Gen Surge!

I have a '06 ABS (bought last fall new, as a left over) and this winter, with about a 1000 miles, I started playing. I added BMC airfilter (modified, another story), Remus carbon fiber pipes, PCIII, 15 tooth spocket, and a Speedhealer( set at -11.2%). From day one, I had this surge problem at low throttle, low RPM and mostly in 3rd gear!?!? I thought the map was too lean so I started throwing more fuel at it in the areas. It seemed to get better, but I was never happy. I must have tried 30 maps and was thinking of trading it in, I just didn't enjoy riding it.

Well this weekend I decided to change the spocket back to stock for a 10 day trip I'll be taking in a couple weeks. After changing the spocket, I set the Speedhealer to -4.5 for stock speedo error (11.2%-6.7% for the gear change). I then went for a test ride and low and behold, the surging was gone, totally! I stopped in a parking lot and set the healer back to -11.2 The surging came back, just as before! I then went home loaded a "normal" map for my mods and holy crap, what a wonderful bike!!! So smooth, so linear, so crisp!! My little test ride turned into a couple hours, it was almost.........sexual.

My theory is that mapping does take gear selection into account. The gear is determined by the ECU comparing RPM to shaft speed in windows or cells. To account for detector errors, windows are fairly large The lower the RPM, and shaft speed, the difference gets smaller and the windows closer together. My guess is that at -11.2% correction at that low of RPM, the ECU thought I was in 4th instead of 3rd and was using the wrong gear map, I'm guessing way lean. You wouldn't notice it in 1st or 2nd because the gears are much further apart and in 4th, 5th and 6th the maps are more than likely closer to each other, also the increase gearing muffles the surging. When you get deeper in the throttle, leanness is the gear map is more hidden by the richness of the increase in throttle percentage.

Comments??

Soon after I got my bike I disabled my speedo healer, because I wanted my mileage to be correct (I tested it with my GPS and it was under-reporting). The only mods I have that affect stock engine settings are O2 eliminators. My bike is very smooth throughout the rpm-range. I only get a slight surging once a month or so.

This is a very interesting find you have here! Anyone else chime in? :lurk:

[image: View Post]ccnaylor, on Jun 2 2009, 12:07 AM, said:

Soon after I got my bike I disabled my speedo healer, because I wanted my mileage to be correct (I tested it with my GPS and it was under-reporting). The only mods I have that affect stock engine settings are O2 eliminators. My bike is very smooth throughout the rpm-range. I only get a slight surging once a month or so.

This is a very interesting find you have here! Anyone else chime in? :lurk:


I am removing my O2 eliminators the next chance I get to remove the side fairing (I try to do this at least every couple weeks). I found no benefit, and picked up a 5K RPM stumble to boot. I did it as a 2 part test...see if mileage increased or if operating temps would rise (theory was bad O2 would dump excess fuel cooling the bike). Same mileage, same temps, just the stumble.

Interesting stuff, keep playing and reporting! :biggrin:

I had similar mods on both of my 02 vtecs including the 15t. The first one never had stumbling issues however the second one would occasionally have a real bad spell at around 4.5k. I solved it with O2 resistors and a TFI box. Neither had a speedohealer to fix the speedo error. Instead, I had a sigma computer installed on both of them. Hmmmm........

[image: View Post]Tightwad, on Jun 2 2009, 01:40 AM, said:

[image: View Post]ccnaylor, on Jun 2 2009, 12:07 AM, said:

Soon after I got my bike I disabled my speedo healer, because I wanted my mileage to be correct (I tested it with my GPS and it was under-reporting). The only mods I have that affect stock engine settings are O2 eliminators. My bike is very smooth throughout the rpm-range. I only get a slight surging once a month or so.

This is a very interesting find you have here! Anyone else chime in? :lurk:


I am removing my O2 eliminators the next chance I get to remove the side fairing (I try to do this at least every couple weeks). I found no benefit, and picked up a 5K RPM stumble to boot. I did it as a 2 part test...see if mileage increased or if operating temps would rise (theory was bad O2 would dump excess fuel cooling the bike). Same mileage, same temps, just the stumble.


This post is a little off topic, I was trying to point out the problems with altering the shaft speed signal. But how that we've ended up on O2 sensor removal, I'd like to share what I've learned about that while trying to fix the problem I used to have.

The stock map is rich in the 4k-5k band and if you hold a steady throttle, the bike will go into close loop in that range when the throttle input is between 5% and %50, and as I learned yesterday, it might also be gear dependent. At that point the system will start leaning the map out to get to the desired air fuel ratio. The O2 sensor has 4 wires, 2 are for its heater and the other 2 are the signal. The signal is a very small voltage produced by a the difference of oxygen between the inside of the sensor and the outside (atmoshpere). In this case if the engine was running lean, the voltage from the sensor would be little to zero. When removing the O2 sensor, the 330ohm resistor is actually across the heater circuit. As long as the ECU sees current flowing through the heater circuit, it believes the sensor is installed and working. However, now the voltage from the new "sensor" is zero, the ECU thinks the bike is all ready lean and does't try to lean it out further. The end result is a rich setting in that cruise range, which if you don't have a problem in the 4K-5k, 5%-%50 range and you don't have a PCIII, removing the sensors will only hurt gas mileage. Some people have had problems with the changing between close and open loop with slight throttle changes and don't like that feel, another reason to remove the sensors. If you have a PCIII and you don't remove the sensors, the ECU will try and correct your new map. If you're going for gas milage, you could leave the sensors in and use the PCIII to make the feeling between open and close loop better, or just buy a moped.

If you look at a PCIII map, you will see you add very little and sometimes even go neg in the 5%-%50 throttle and 4k-5k RPM map area.

FWIW I've have a speedohealer on my '04 VFR (bought new in '05) since nearly new. 15,000 miles later I still just skim over the posts about surging because I've never had the problem, but I'm intrigued that so may out there do. You could be onto something... I have a Ducati 1098 that's not as smooth as the VFR around 3-4K RPM. A speedohealer has always been on the "to-do" list of upgrades, and now I'm wondering if it'll help there as well.

[image: View Post]Zyvek, on Jun 2 2009, 07:41 PM, said:

FWIW I've have a speedohealer on my '04 VFR (bought new in '05) since nearly new. 15,000 miles later I still just skim over the posts about surging because I've never had the problem, but I'm intrigued that so may out there do. You could be onto something... I have a Ducati 1098 that's not as smooth as the VFR around 3-4K RPM. A speedohealer has always been on the "to-do" list of upgrades, and now I'm wondering if it'll help there as well.

I think you miss understand, the speedohealer caused my problem. What's your speedohealer set at? Are you just correcting factory error or are you using it because of a gear change? Mine works fine to correct speedo error (-4.5), but turns the bike evil when correcting for factory error and gearing change (-11.2).

Reason #902 why well tuned carbs are better then FI.

[image: View Post]slowf2337, on Jun 2 2009, 09:51 PM, said:

Reason #902 why well tuned carbs are better then FI.

Or why it can be a nightmare to mess with a "black box" until you know all of the logic it is performing.




Ask me about the 2 months of my life lost reverse engineering the proprietary logic of a print engine that the (uppity German) manufacturer would not support because the machine was bought on the secondary market. (Management learned that sometimes saving a dime costs $17,000)

About 4000 km of speadohealer (set at -7%) no issues, no difference.
Except that now when the speedo says 110 not as many cages passing me.

[image: View Post]SilverVee, on Jun 3 2009, 12:42 AM, said:

About 4000 km of speadohealer (set at -7%) no issues, no difference.
Except that now when the speedo says 110 not as many cages passing me.

I was wondering, as a test, could you change it to -12 and tell me what happens? Mine also works fine at -4.5. My theory is you have to cross a certain theshold before things start going wacko. I also had a thought yesterday that '02-'05 might react different than '06-'09. The fact that you have an '05 might add some enlightenment.

Very Interesting! As always, I wish there was more information on exactly how the ECU interacts with the rest of the bike. I don't have a speedohealer yet, but it is on my want list since I�m plus 2 on the rear sprocket. I don't currently have any surging and certainly don't want any. Thanks for the Info.

Action

[image: View Post]Action, on Jun 3 2009, 10:17 AM, said:

Very Interesting! As always, I wish there was more information on exactly how the ECU interacts with the rest of the bike. I don't have a speedohealer yet, but it is on my want list since I�m plus 2 on the rear sprocket. I don't currently have any surging and certainly don't want any. Thanks for the Info.

Action


I contacted the Speedohealer folks and I have a work around so you can use it without causing any problems. It turns out, the speed signal doesn't go to the ECU then the speedo. It actually leaves the sensor and splits, one lead to the ECU and one to the speedo. You just have to connect it after the split, on the speedo side. Then the signal to the ECU remains unchanged, and the speedo reads whatever you want / need. All is well! The fact that the signal splits reinforces my believe that the ECU uses it for engine control. If there's a feed the goes direct to the speedo, there's no other reason to feed speed to the ECU, if not for some engine control.

[image: View Post]coderighter, on Jun 3 2009, 07:00 AM, said:

[image: View Post]SilverVee, on Jun 3 2009, 12:42 AM, said:

About 4000 km of speadohealer (set at -7%) no issues, no difference.
Except that now when the speedo says 110 not as many cages passing me.

I was wondering, as a test, could you change it to -12 and tell me what happens? Mine also works fine at -4.5. My theory is you have to cross a certain theshold before things start going wacko. I also had a thought yesterday that '02-'05 might react different than '06-'09. The fact that you have an '05 might add some enlightenment.
A little tied up with work right now but will try it and report back. Information you got about splitting the feeds sounds real good,
will try that if I add 2 teeth on the rear sprocket.

[image: View Post]coderighter, on Jun 2 2009, 09:27 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Zyvek, on Jun 2 2009, 07:41 PM, said:

FWIW I've have a speedohealer on my '04 VFR (bought new in '05) since nearly new. 15,000 miles later I still just skim over the posts about surging because I've never had the problem, but I'm intrigued that so may out there do. You could be onto something... I have a Ducati 1098 that's not as smooth as the VFR around 3-4K RPM. A speedohealer has always been on the "to-do" list of upgrades, and now I'm wondering if it'll help there as well.

I think you miss understand, the speedohealer caused my problem. What's your speedohealer set at? Are you just correcting factory error or are you using it because of a gear change? Mine works fine to correct speedo error (-4.5), but turns the bike evil when correcting for factory error and gearing change (-11.2).

Doh! Sorry. :blush: Mines set at around -8%, I can fiddle with it Saturday and let you know if you like.

[image: View Post]Zyvek, on Jun 4 2009, 01:57 AM, said:

[image: View Post]coderighter, on Jun 2 2009, 09:27 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Zyvek, on Jun 2 2009, 07:41 PM, said:

FWIW I've have a speedohealer on my '04 VFR (bought new in '05) since nearly new. 15,000 miles later I still just skim over the posts about surging because I've never had the problem, but I'm intrigued that so may out there do. You could be onto something... I have a Ducati 1098 that's not as smooth as the VFR around 3-4K RPM. A speedohealer has always been on the "to-do" list of upgrades, and now I'm wondering if it'll help there as well.

I think you miss understand, the speedohealer caused my problem. What's your speedohealer set at? Are you just correcting factory error or are you using it because of a gear change? Mine works fine to correct speedo error (-4.5), but turns the bike evil when correcting for factory error and gearing change (-11.2).

Doh! Sorry. :blush: Mines set at around -8%, I can fiddle with it Saturday and let you know if you like.

That would be great, thanks!

[image: View Post]coderighter, on Jun 3 2009, 10:19 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Action, on Jun 3 2009, 10:17 AM, said:

Very Interesting! As always, I wish there was more information on exactly how the ECU interacts with the rest of the bike. I don't have a speedohealer yet, but it is on my want list since I�m plus 2 on the rear sprocket. I don't currently have any surging and certainly don't want any. Thanks for the Info.

Action


I contacted the Speedohealer folks and I have a work around so you can use it without causing any problems. It turns out, the speed signal doesn't go to the ECU then the speedo. It actually leaves the sensor and splits, one lead to the ECU and one to the speedo. You just have to connect it after the split, on the speedo side. Then the signal to the ECU remains unchanged, and the speedo reads whatever you want / need. All is well! The fact that the signal splits reinforces my believe that the ECU uses it for engine control. If there's a feed the goes direct to the speedo, there's no other reason to feed speed to the ECU, if not for some engine control.

Nice sleuthing, coderighter. I'm -1 front and also plan on a Speedohealer install when the funds become available. Tired of the wildly inaccurate odometer most of all, but guessing how fast you're going without a GPS doesn't really cut it either. No tickee yet, but...

I've been reading this thread with baited breath... my '03 (21,000km) feels like I'm getting kicked in the pants by a 500 lbs Sumo Wrestler... it's Terrible!

It's basically box stock - no Speedo Healer, no engine mods, sproket mods - just put some R1 Cans on it, I'm just trying to figure out which direction to go to fix it... this site is certianly aces!

[image: View Post]coderighter, on Jun 2 2009, 11:36 AM, said:

[image: View Post]Tightwad, on Jun 2 2009, 01:40 AM, said:

[image: View Post]ccnaylor, on Jun 2 2009, 12:07 AM, said:

Soon after I got my bike I disabled my speedo healer, because I wanted my mileage to be correct (I tested it with my GPS and it was under-reporting). The only mods I have that affect stock engine settings are O2 eliminators. My bike is very smooth throughout the rpm-range. I only get a slight surging once a month or so.

This is a very interesting find you have here! Anyone else chime in? :lurk:


I am removing my O2 eliminators the next chance I get to remove the side fairing (I try to do this at least every couple weeks). I found no benefit, and picked up a 5K RPM stumble to boot. I did it as a 2 part test...see if mileage increased or if operating temps would rise (theory was bad O2 would dump excess fuel cooling the bike). Same mileage, same temps, just the stumble.


This post is a little off topic, I was trying to point out the problems with altering the shaft speed signal. But how that we've ended up on O2 sensor removal, I'd like to share what I've learned about that while trying to fix the problem I used to have.

The stock map is rich in the 4k-5k band and if you hold a steady throttle, the bike will go into close loop in that range when the throttle input is between 5% and %50, and as I learned yesterday, it might also be gear dependent. At that point the system will start leaning the map out to get to the desired air fuel ratio. The O2 sensor has 4 wires, 2 are for its heater and the other 2 are the signal. The signal is a very small voltage produced by a the difference of oxygen between the inside of the sensor and the outside (atmoshpere). In this case if the engine was running lean, the voltage from the sensor would be little to zero. When removing the O2 sensor, the 330ohm resistor is actually across the heater circuit. As long as the ECU sees current flowing through the heater circuit, it believes the sensor is installed and working. However, now the voltage from the new "sensor" is zero, the ECU thinks the bike is all ready lean and does't try to lean it out further. The end result is a rich setting in that cruise range, which if you don't have a problem in the 4K-5k, 5%-%50 range and you don't have a PCIII, removing the sensors will only hurt gas mileage. Some people have had problems with the changing between close and open loop with slight throttle changes and don't like that feel, another reason to remove the sensors. If you have a PCIII and you don't remove the sensors, the ECU will try and correct your new map. If you're going for gas milage, you could leave the sensors in and use the PCIII to make the feeling between open and close loop better, or just buy a moped.

If you look at a PCIII map, you will see you add very little and sometimes even go neg in the 5%-%50 throttle and 4k-5k RPM map area.

Great stuff, BUT I think this relates only to 06-up VFR's as they seem to be the only one's w/gear specific maps and the 4 wire 02's. :huh:

[quote name='coderighter' date='Jun 1 2009, 09:34 PM' post='617886']
I have a '06 ABS (bought last fall new, as a left over) and this winter, with about a 1000 miles, I started playing. I added BMC airfilter (modified, another story), Remus carbon fiber pipes, PCIII, 15 tooth spocket, and a Speedhealer( set at -11.2%). From day one, I had this surge problem at low throttle, low RPM and mostly in 3rd gear!?!? I thought the map was too lean so I started throwing more fuel at it in the areas. It seemed to get better, but I was never happy. I must have tried 30 maps and was thinking of trading it in, I just didn't enjoy riding it.

Tried -12% correction today. Went for a 150km ride today part city, part country road and some slab.
Aside from the embarrassing moment after the reset to -6.5% (coasted to a stop, reset s/h then tried
to take off slowly in 4th, needless to say stall, stall. Mind was on the s/h).
Allright, the only difference in all instances was speedo vs tach reading.
No change at all in low speed, high speed, pulling higher gear low speed (lugging), 3rd, 4th, 5th
4k-5k, 6k-7k, transitions, through vtec up and down. Only hiccup was hitting the rev limiter.
Just for the record 2005, abs, risers, sargent, and speedohealer, otherwise pure stock.

Hope that helps coderighter,
Adrian