We've done this before, and it usually ends up becoming an argument and the thread gets locked. And some VFRD member who is looking to get at the truth about so-called trail braking goes away wondering what all the fuss is about. Damn!
First, let me state that "trail braking" is NOT using your rear brake to "settle the chassis" like I see mentioned every so often. It is a slight application of your front brake right up to and possibly through the apex of a turn. As Freddie Spencer has been known to say [yeah, that worthless drunk FS guy who was three time World Champ] to his students, "Please take a hacksaw and remove your rear brake pedal. Forever." Settling the chassis with rear brake is nonsense and mistaken interpretations of what's going on. In my opinion, it's an excuse to slow down due to poor technique and/or poor knowledge of the physics of the bike in motion. Believe me, there's no rider on this board who needs to settle the chassis of a modern sportbike. It's already settled, unless you're doing something wrong in the first place. The pros use their rear brake for high-level racing techniques. We don't. Now go hack that damn brake pedal off like Freddie told you to!!
So, to put an end to the misinterpretation of so-called trail braking, I'm going to rename it the Freddie Nick Braking Into Corner (FNBIC) technique. This technique allows a rider to safely and precisely adjust his speed right up to the apex and beyond, instead of coasting up to the apex or entering too slow and then rolling on the gas up to the apex (like I think most of us do, and even this chicken-livered failure of a Freddie student...ME! :blush: )
But I'm not going to explain it, and Das Bone and Jeremy are tired of trying to explain it, so I'm going to let you read about it on page 52 of Cycle World.
I can tell you that knowing about and trusting FNBIC provides the rider (like lousy ME!) a higher level of confidence when going into a corner at a speed that would normally increase the pucker-factor. And this is about "braking on purpose just a wee, wee bit", not about grabbing the brake in panic and then either locking the front or standing the bike up and crashing. It's not about the crashing, believe me.
One interesting thing I'll talk to in that article, and that's the point that's made about how a bit of front brake increases contact patch area and adds pressure (and friction) to the front tire. In FS school, Nick took a plain front tire...no wheel in it....and held it at about 45* lean on the Formica desktop with his left hand. He then thumped the top of the tire with his right hand and it skipped a half inch sideways each time he did it. Then, he applied some pressure on the tire with his left, so you could see the contact patch (from outside and inside the tire) get a bit bigger. He then thumped the tire in the same way and it didn't skip at all. Hmmmmm!! This was a graphic and dramatic demonstration of how having some weight on the tire due to FNBIC technique increases traction where and when you really need it--at the apex.
Of course, this is all discussed in heavy detail in Nick's famous book Sport Riding Techniques :blink: .
So, please discuss the FNBIC technique amongst yourselves....or go to Nick's Yamaha Riding School and find out for yourselves....
And who would have ever thought the Railer Of The Interstates would be talking about cornering technique? :goofy:
:lurk:
It always annoys me when people think of trail braking as "trailing the rear brake". Lol. I don't know why folks can't seem to get this straight.
But, the idea of taking a hacksaw to your rear brake is probably valid for track riding, but absolutely laughable for street riding. :blink:
Nick Ienatsch:
"Studies show that the fastest. shortest stops come from using BOTH brakes, yet some sport riders stay off the rear brake entirely for fear of lock-up or due to a mistaken belief that using the rear brake doesn't help. Remember, it is okay to use the rear brake, but do not abuse it".
I always FNBIC when riding :blink: ...really!
[image: View Post]Brown81, on Sep 16 2009, 04:41 PM, said:
But, the idea of taking a hacksaw to your rear brake is probably valid for track riding, but absolutely laughable for street riding. :goofy:
Yes, I'll grant you that. Freddie obviously says that for shock value and to drive home a specific point about NOT using rear brake for the high performance riding that he and Nick were teaching. And....when I was there the class included a surprising number of crusier riders who rarely used their FRONT brake, so again, he really wanted to drive home the point.
On my RC, I've carefully experimented to see how much rear brake it will take. Not much before lockup....not much at all. So....to keep from EVER having it lock up, I sawed it off! :blink: :blush: [just kidding]
FNBIC!!
[image: View Post]Trace, on Sep 16 2009, 01:47 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Brown81, on Sep 16 2009, 04:41 PM, said:
But, the idea of taking a hacksaw to your rear brake is probably valid for track riding, but absolutely laughable for street riding. :goofy:
Yes, I'll grant you that. Freddie obviously says that for shock value and to drive home a specific point about NOT using rear brake for the high performance riding that he and Nick were teaching. And....when I was there the class included a surprising number of crusier riders who rarely used their FRONT brake, so again, he really wanted to drive home the point.
On my RC, I've carefully experimented to see how much rear brake it will take. Not much before lockup....not much at all. So....to keep from EVER having it lock up, I sawed it off! :blink: :blush: [just kidding]
FNBIC!!
I rarely use mine, even on the street. But, it does indeed work in some situations, and I think everyone, like you, should experiment with it and be familiar with it's behavior. Maybe some minor adjustments can alleviate the tendency to lock up.
10% is a LOT when it is needed.
I never use the rear brake on my CBR unless I'm in a parking lot or sitting at a stoplight.
[image: View Post]JBAXX, on Sep 16 2009, 02:03 PM, said:
I never use the rear brake on my CBR unless I'm in a parking lot or sitting at a stoplight.
I'd suggest practicing emergency stops with it. You will stop quite a bit faster. :blink:
I like trail braking, do so often. Usually cause I'm skeered, though! :blink:
I think I trail brake some, but I'm sure not good at it! There's probably a few seconds a lap at ever track I run at if I could perfect it, so I hope to play with it more. :goofy:
Another effect of trail braking is a steeper rake as the forks compress, which allows you to maintain a tight line or even tighten your line through a corner! :blink:
[image: View Post]KPerham, on Sep 16 2009, 09:05 PM, said:
I like trail braking, do so often. Usually cause I'm skeered, though! :goofy:
Hee-hee....me too!!
[image: View Post]Baileyrock, on Sep 16 2009, 09:19 PM, said:
Another effect of trail braking is a steeper rake as the forks compress, which allows you to maintain a tight line or even tighten your line through a corner! :blink:
That's actually the bigger point of the Cycle World article, and it starts with the author stating "One thing Freddie used to do that I didn't really get point of at the time was to come howling into a corner and just brake smoothly to a stop at the apex, where we'd all [students] be standing." The intent of this excercise (some guy named Jason DiSalvo demonstrated it for Freddie when I was there) was to demonstrate that it's not a bad thing to be darn hard on the brakes when leaned into a corner, and that it can be done if FNBIC is properly used. I mean, when DiSalvo came screaming out of Turn 8 and hurled the 60 yards towards Turn 9 heading onto the front straight....like he'd done for several laps while we stood there, awestruck.....but suddenly came to a smooth stop at the apex when Nick waved his hands and walked onto the track just past the apex....I was amazed. I hope I never have to do that. I'll kill Nick! http://www.vfrdiscus...tyle_emoticons/default/sad.gif
Ya'll gotta get the magazine and read the article!!
i trail brake at one place on earth....tallyGP and only because its the only place i actually go at a decent relative speed as i enter the turn. it just doesn't seem to be necessary at 90% of the situations i am in.
on the other hand, rossi talks about trailing the front brake while applying the gas coming OUT of a turn to keep the front contact patch from dissappearing as the front tries to lift....B-O..those dudes are amazing, but they point to your comment...some brake INCREASES grip because it increases the patch. the only issue is, are you using a tire whose side wall along with your speed/weight actually needs more pressure to create a larger sidewall.
i just keep thinging that for most folks, this just isn;t a good idea "most" of the time.
[image: View Post]Trace, on Sep 16 2009, 03:13 PM, said:
As Freddie Spencer has been known to say [yeah, that worthless drunk FS guy who was three time World Champ] to his students, "Please take a hacksaw and remove your rear brake pedal. Forever."
Settling the chassis with rear brake is nonsense and mistaken interpretations of what's going on. In my opinion, it's an excuse to slow down due to poor technique and/or poor knowledge of the physics of the bike in motion. Believe me, there's no rider on this board who needs to settle the chassis of a modern sportbike. It's already settled, unless you're doing something wrong in the first place. The pros use their rear brake for high-level racing techniques. We don't. Now go hack that damn brake pedal off like Freddie told you to!!
......
Of course, this is all discussed in heavy detail in Nick's famous book Sport Riding Techniques :blink: .
Hmmmm. Maybe a partial threadjack.... Pages 65-67 of Nick's book discuss the usefulness of the rear brake, one point being a useful "stabilizing effect" during hard braking. So what is their position exactly? Highly useful or throw it away? I've read a lot of folks on here who do track days say they don't touch their rear brake. I'm not arguing one way or another, as this is above my motorcycle pay grade (skill level), as they say, but I'm very curious about whether the rear is useful this way or no.
Rear brake is just one thing too many for my brain to handle, I'm afraid to admit...
I honestly thought trail braking was for when we go off-roading with our VFR's. :blink:
No, trail braking is when you're the FIRST off-road with the VFR, and get to open up the trees and shrubs for the rest of the pack! Oh sorry that's trail breaking.
[image: View Post]huskysooner, on Sep 16 2009, 06:41 PM, said:
Hmmmm. Maybe a partial threadjack.... Pages 65-67 of Nick's book discuss the usefulness of the rear brake, one point being a useful "stabilizing effect" during hard braking. So what is their position exactly? Highly useful or throw it away? I've read a lot of folks on here who do track days say they don't touch their rear brake. I'm not arguing one way or another, as this is above my motorcycle pay grade (skill level), as they say, but I'm very curious about whether the rear is useful this way or no.
The thing is this: Track riding and street riding are two totally different animals. Nick taught at Freddies track school, but would give a totally different lesson for street riding. This exact topic came up in another thread recently.
My opinion is that learning some track riding techniques are going to help you be a better street rider. Trail braking is useful for a number of reasons for street riding. One should learn to be confident using brakes in a turn, as many are not. But, because of the nature of street riding, if you go to track day schools and think that that is the way to ride on the street, you are mistaken. Throwing away the rear brake is not advice that any good street rider would ever give you. Nick, Lee Parks, Keith Code, you name it. When it comes to street riding they would never in a million years tell you to throw away 10% of your braking power or to throw away control of your rear wheel. Never. I mean, why? Why in the world would they?
Also, it should be noted that there are many riders and racers who do not subscribe to the gospel of Freddie. Many racers use quite a bit of rear brake.
Read Nicks writing, and also read Parks, Code and the rest of them. Take their expert opinions to heart and take a bunch of dudes on an internet forums' with a grain of salt (including mine). One track school does not an expert make.
Just my opinion.
Trace,thx for the info. As trail in it self would make some peps think the rear, and just because someone has decided trail-braking is to mean braking far into the turn, doesn't mean they do, or don't do it. they just don't know the term for it.
As far as learning to use the f/r brakes for the sake of when you might need to. Remember that the VFR uses both incorporated into the bikes system,which always seems to be left out of this discussion.
If and when I use trail-braking. I use KC's method # of fingers, that works for me......
When I did Code's school, he does an exercise that in a sense totally opposite of everything being discussed here. You have to go out on the track, stay in one gear, and see how fast a lap time you can turn without ever using either the front or rear brake(s).
It will surprise you how fast you can go "brakeless".
[image: View Post]Brown81, on Sep 17 2009, 03:05 PM, said:
Read Nicks writing, and also read Parks, Code and the rest of them. Take their expert opinions to heart and take a bunch of dudes on an internet forums' with a grain of salt (including mine). One track school does not an expert make.
Just my opinion.
:+1:
Most internet discussions about how things work are not very credible. Even the experts are often incorrectly describing the physics or using poor models (e.g., Nick's bouncing an unmounted tire to demonstrate the value of loading a tire, claims transferring weight to a tire improves traction, rear brakes cannot be used to transfer weight).
I'll be optimistic about the CW article (but not very hopeful).
Great topic and post, Trace. I read that article, too, and it made a lot of sense. While I've never done a track day (but hope to, maybe next year) I can see how this technique can be valuable in the twisties. I believe I do this already, but not as well as many of you, esp. the track day folks!
For me, 'settling the chassis' means having weight and compression as evenly distributioned as possible entering, at the apex and exiting a corner. Unless I have my corner entry speed set exactly right, using a bit of front brake is necessary and a far better choice than using the rear brake alone. Using a bit of front brake puts a little more weight on the front wheel - aiding front tire traction - and compresses the fork, shrinking your wheelbase a tiny amount, decreasing rake & trail (IIRC) and giving you the ability to tighten your line a bit more easily.
The point (again, for me anyway) is to ensure good traction with both tires. Especially on a bike with less-than-perfect suspension (my stock suspension VFR) with a heavy rider (me), entering a corner with the bike unsettled would be a bad, bad thing.
As for using the rear brake on the street, it's useful during slow speed tight turns and necessary at some stoplights where you're pointed uphill. That being said, I use mine often on the street. Call it a holdover from my cycling days.
Also, as Monk mentioned, 5th and 6th gen. VFRs have linked brakes, so unless you've de-linked them, you'll be applying some rear brake when you use the front alone anyway. Something to keep in mind when you're railing on your VFR.
Take a break, Trace. You're not a "chicken livered failure of a Freddie student"!! Now, Dale, I can easily envision that....especially with those six ply tires http://www.vfrdiscus...tyle_emoticons/default/wink.gif
BTW, all I can remember when riding with you is you hammering the throttle to keep the front wheel of that red 5th gen. behind you from climbing up your pillion seat.... :ohmy: :fing02:
Come go think of it, it is about beer-thirty.... :happy: :cool:
BTW, where are the brakes on a VFR??.... :warranty:
Also, as Monk mentioned, 5th and 6th gen. VFRs have linked brakes, so unless you've de-linked them, you'll be applying some rear brake when you use the front alone anyway. Something to keep in mind when you're railing on your VFR. ))))))))))))
and being the vfr front trail brakes seeminless, must be a little value in that rear brake>G<
The 6th gen has less linking, seems to be useable, I think the rear brake on the 5th gen operates an additional piston on the front
Interesting article from Code on
Braking
[image: View Post]mechdziner714, on Sep 18 2009, 03:22 PM, said:
Interesting article from Code on
Braking
Keith Code's writing is always thoughtful and clear. His no brakes drill is an eye opener (no pun intended); it clearly demonstrates how important judging corner entry speed is and how much braking can distract you from judging well.
:fing02:
on the track riders that can use his/her brakes the best is going to make the most passes. trail braking allows you to carry more entry speed into a corner the easiest place to pass.the idea is to scrub of just enough speed for the apex braking right up to apex then back on the throttle. only reason racers have back brakes is for when they hit the dirt then u wanna be on the back brakes and off the front. correct track riding form makes it very awkward especially on a right turn to apply rear brake anyways.
on the street ask yourself do you prefer riding up a canyon pass or down it? most will say going up is better. if you trail brake correctly you can go down just as fast and have just as much fun. IMO trail braking is one of the most valuable things you can learn. it could save your ass. you never know what might be hidding around that blind corner
[image: View Post]hlf, on Sep 19 2009, 10:00 AM, said:
[image: View Post]mechdziner714, on Sep 18 2009, 03:22 PM, said:
Interesting article from Code on
Braking
Keith Code's writing is always thoughtful and clear. His no brakes drill is an eye opener (no pun intended); it clearly demonstrates how important judging corner entry speed is and how much braking can distract you from judging well.
I think there's another good KC article on braking in the Oct. issue of Motorcyclist. (I've read a few mags over the last couple weeks, so I'm sorry I can't say for sure which mag it is.) Code basically discussed the differences and skills needed in trail braking vs. setting corner entry speed and staying off the brakes thru the whole corner. IIRC, he suggested the latter is actually more difficult.
[image: View Post]Baileyrock, on Sep 16 2009, 09:19 PM, said:
I think I trail brake some, but I'm sure not good at it! There's probably a few seconds a lap at ever track I run at if I could perfect it, so I hope to play with it more. :cool:
Another effect of trail braking is a steeper rake as the forks compress, which allows you to maintain a tight line or even tighten your line through a corner! :cool:
I don't know how good/bad I am at it, I do know that I use it from time to time.
I was trail braking quite a bit when we ran NC28 at this last TMAC Kevin, like every 5-6 corner! I was picking up speed through each turn, and then would come up on a decreasing radius and run the brakes in deep. I got some good use out of it that day!
[image: View Post]TimC, on Sep 21 2009, 12:51 PM, said:
I think there's another good KC article on braking in the Oct. issue of Motorcyclist. (I've read a few mags over the last couple weeks, so I'm sorry I can't say for sure which mag it is.) Code basically discussed the differences and skills needed in trail braking vs. setting corner entry speed and staying off the brakes thru the whole corner. IIRC, he suggested the latter is actually more difficult.
It was his column in the Oct issue of Motorcyclist. I agree, it was thought provoking.
I have gotten pretty good at TB..... Mostly because I was going into the turns to fast and thought that was how it was done..... But as I'm learning.... I've been working on Earlier braking(rpm's),so I can go into the corner at the right speed in the 1st place(no pun intended).... After riding with some of the guy's at the T-Mac .... I saw no brake lights(on the most part), while I was using TB ..... and they were going though the turns way better than I was..... It is said "RPM's are your friend".
Now, correct me if I am wrong....
The linked brakes on 5th and 6th gens are the rear linked to one pot on the front. No link from front to rear.
If you use the rear brake in a turn, you widen your line, and unsettle the bike. Never completely close the throttle, same effect.
A light squeeze on the front, fading away as lean angle increases, bleeds speed and gives more bite ( weight balance to the front ).
Grab a hand full and you unsettle the bike in a bad way.
Safest to slow before entering the turn. ( Slow in, fast out )
I've never been to a school, or a class for riding motorcycles.
I've been on the street for almost 28 years, and I live in the mountains.
Am I missing something?
Mac
End of thread · 30 posts recovered Wayback Machine snapshot 20 Jul 2012