I'm starting to feel like I am ''weeing'' in the wind now
I've just got back after spending 3 hours in the biting cold winter air stuck at the side of the road with a melted 30amp fuse
I don't get it... I thought I sorted this problem a year ago, but tonight, using both my gerbing jacket liner and gloves (whch the fuse to them didn't blow by the way so it can't be them?) I lost engine power and that was that. I had no tools to do the job so I had to call the breakdown service and a nice �65 for some guy to come out and replace the damn fuse/wire.
Now to put you in the picture, this has happened to me once already and I added thicker wire with a seperate 30amp fuse so that if it did blow it wouldn't blow the main one so I wouldn't be left going 60+mph with no lights or engine.
What this means is I have to take her back to the dealer and let them spend hours thinking about the problem and trying to find the cause.
Any ideas would be appreciated - sorry if my grammer is crap, it's not really my priority at the minute.
[image: View Post]vfr_steve, on 06 December 2009 - 05:29 PM, said:
I'm starting to feel like I am ''weeing'' in the wind now
I've just got back after spending 3 hours in the biting cold winter air stuck at the side of the road with a melted 30amp fuse
I don't get it... I thought I sorted this problem a year ago, but tonight, using both my gerbing jacket liner and gloves (whch the fuse to them didn't blow by the way so it can't be them?) I lost engine power and that was that. I had no tools to do the job so I had to call the breakdown service and a nice �65 for some guy to come out and replace the damn fuse/wire.
Now to put you in the picture, this has happened to me once already and I added thicker wire with a seperate 30amp fuse so that if it did blow it wouldn't blow the main one so I wouldn't be left going 60+mph with no lights or engine.
What this means is I have to take her back to the dealer and let them spend hours thinking about the problem and trying to find the cause.
Any ideas would be appreciated - sorry if my grammer is crap, it's not really my priority at the minute.
Sorry about that Steve,
Have you thought about asking Tightwad? I consider him a reference for electrical problems. I'm no reference myself, but I thought I'd make this suggestion.
I have replaced 2 melted stators, had all the recall wiring done, replaced another melted stator, R/R, and battery. And after all that the 30 amp fuse holder from the wiring recall still melted. If the fuse holder is over heating and the fuse is not blowing then the problem is the fuse holder has too much resistance. I have replaced the fuse holder with a heavy duty automotive unit with thicker wire and have had no issues in the last 25k miles.
8 gauge wire on the VFRness...haven't seen a melted fuse yet! Sorry to hear of your troubles, sounds like you did all you could to prevent them. I wonder if an "electrical patch kit" would be a good investment for VFR riders. Simple wire stripper, some heavy wire, and a spare fuse holder would patch many situations.
I feel for you man. I had to work on my electrics several times before I got them sorted out. Then ofcourse I just jinxed myself by saying that. There's quite a bit written about these problems and remedies, so I feel research is your best friend. Electrical issues can be both general and very specific. Fixing one problem may create another. All I can say is find out as much as you can on the matter and you won't feel at the mercy of the unknowns. Now I will painfully read your post to see if i can offer any specific advice.
[image: View Post]VFR Capt.Bob, on 07 December 2009 - 08:14 PM, said:
I feel for you man. I had to work on my electrics several times before I got them sorted out. Then ofcourse I just jinxed myself by saying that. There's quite a bit written about these problems and remedies, so I feel research is your best friend. Electrical issues can be both general and very specific. Fixing one problem may create another. All I can say is find out as much as you can on the matter and you won't feel at the mercy of the unknowns. Now I will painfully read your post to see if i can offer any specific advice.
Thanks for the post, so are these issues common with 5th gens too? (As I am thinking of selling and getting one)
Not too crazy about the two 30 amp fuses deal. The point of fusing the circuit in the first place is to protect the wiring harness. If one 30 amp isn't blowing, then the current shouldn't be too high. With two in there, the harness will likely burn up first in the event of a problem. So, I agree with what Bad Boy said earlier, the issue here is a bad fuse holder. Trouble is, I haven't been able to find one that I think is better yet.
The problem is the size of the wire at the fuse holder (in my opinion). 30 amp, 20 amp, 60 amp...none will matter if the wire itself can't handle that much.
For the VFRness I went from 1 30 amp and changed it to 2-20 amps...only because in a perfect storm scenario, with all things being equal, 2-30 amp fuses would allow a potential of 60 amps. Of course reality is electricity will take the path of least resistance, which is the VFRness and it's 8 gauge wiring, and the other basically serves no purpose. I could probably go to 30 amp fuses, but I already have hundreds of the 20 amp fuses and they have worked just fine.
The fuse holder I use allows 8 gauge wire(it's happier with 10 gauge however), most fuse holders come with 12 or 14 gauge, and that just isn't enough for the VFR system.
OUCH!!! If you run two 30 amp fuses in parallel it will = to 60 amp
Never put two fuses side by side. I'm not familiar with the problem
you are having but if it a wire problem fix the wire. If it is burning
the wire near the fuse holder find a better fuse holder, if you are
running the best ATO fuse holder you can find move up to a Maxi fuse
holder and keep the fuse at the right AMP's (30 amp).
The mechanic (Honda tech btw!) seems to think that it's like a backup fuse in case the other one goes. Personally even with my limited B GCSE eletronics grade that to me seems like it would equal to 60amp but when I asked him he said it wouldn't work like that.
Throughout all this I've never had a wire get too hot or burn - Maybe I need to seek a second opinion.
I installed Tightwad's VFRness soon after purchasing my '03... when the stator finally BBQ'ed itself (the VFRness cannot avoid this), the rest of my charging system and wiring harness was spared... I think the VFRness does come in there.
A few years after isntalling the VFRness (about 6 months ago)... one of the 20 Amp fuses blew under engine braking... I can't say what caused it, but I threw a spare 30 Amp fuse in to get home and replaced it with another 20 Amp one as soon as I could. Never had any more problems...
But my fuseholder remained in tact and the (rather thin) wires leading into said holder aren't showing any signs of overheating...
There's one connector people here on VFRD don't seem to mention checking out... it's a big MF yellow connector behind the headlights where all the realys and stuff are... it's big and yellow so it stands out once you get the nosecone off... over here in Spain when electrical gremlins start showing up in VTECs, the typical response from a lot of Honda Mechanics is to remove that connector and either solder the whole lot together or connect each pair separately but splicing... no connectors... I believe the wires running through this connector are ground wires... if excess isn't getting to ground properly, fuses will blow right?? I think I've got that much understood....
Good luck Steve... I've got a Silver 5th gen down here which originally came from the UK (has headlight switch)... it needs a new chain and sprockets and clutch plates and clutch springs... aside from that it's fine... letting it go cheap for ya if you want to fly down and ride it back home... even cheaper if you don't want the final drive and clutch sorted by yours truly...
[image: View Post]Auspa�ol, on 09 December 2009 - 08:19 AM, said:
There's one connector people here on VFRD don't seem to mention checking out... it's a big MF yellow connector behind the headlights where all the realys and stuff are... it's big and yellow so it stands out once you get the nosecone off... over here in Spain when electrical gremlins start showing up in VTECs, the typical response from a lot of Honda Mechanics is to remove that connector and either solder the whole lot together or connect each pair separately but splicing... no connectors... I believe the wires running through this connector are ground wires... if excess isn't getting to ground properly, fuses will blow right?? I think I've got that much understood....
I will have to look for this connector, I don't recall any yellow connectors on my bike, and all the fairings are off right now. Is it possibly a HISS specific connection?
The head light on my ZRX was getting 12.8 volts with the bike running. After hitting all the various connectors, fuse holders with this stuff I got it up to 13.9 volts.
Thanks Auspa�ol, you know, I may just take you up on that offer as I am looking for a 5th gen at the minute.. I have totally lost faith in her now.. and that's after two trouble free 2-up holiday but I just can't keep dealing with this, it's turning me into a nervous wreck!
I have noticed that my lights don't dim half as much now with the two fuses in place but I'm not sure if that's related in any way.
[image: View Post]vfr_steve, on 09 December 2009 - 01:26 PM, said:
Thanks Auspa�ol, you know, I may just take you up on that offer as I am looking for a 5th gen at the minute.. I have totally lost faith in her now.. and that's after two trouble free 2-up holiday but I just can't keep dealing with this, it's turning me into a nervous wreck!
I have noticed that my lights don't dim half as much now with the two fuses in place but I'm not sure if that's related in any way.
How many miles has the silver 5th gen got?
Cheers
Yes, it is related...the new fuse setup will help the charging remain steady.
[image: View Post]Tightwad, on 09 December 2009 - 08:40 PM, said:
[image: View Post]vfr_steve, on 09 December 2009 - 01:26 PM, said:
Thanks Auspa�ol, you know, I may just take you up on that offer as I am looking for a 5th gen at the minute.. I have totally lost faith in her now.. and that's after two trouble free 2-up holiday but I just can't keep dealing with this, it's turning me into a nervous wreck!
I have noticed that my lights don't dim half as much now with the two fuses in place but I'm not sure if that's related in any way.
How many miles has the silver 5th gen got?
Cheers
Yes, it is related...the new fuse setup will help the charging remain steady.
My lights used to dim under braking that bad sometimes I would notice it on dark back roads, I think it's a lot better now although I can never be totally sure. The night a got stranded I was using my heated gear and my full beam on for 2-3 mins at a time, but this kind of strain should never be an issue as it's just normal running conditions.
I wish I could say it's fixed, but I just don't know, until maybe one day when it cuts out again :angry:
I thought I may provide a bit of insight here, purely from an electrical engineering perspective. I'm not sure from the original post if the breakdown was caused by the fuse blowing, (going open circuit) or if the fuse "melted" in the fuseholder, causing an open circuit at the connection.
For any fuse/fuseholder to be electrically effective, the connection between the fuse and the fuseholder needs to be TIGHT. On ATC style fuses, especially when used in those "pigtail" style fuseholders, this is a common problem. The sockets that the "blades" of the fuse plug into are not made with much precision. If the fuse is not a TIGHT fit in the fuseholder sockets, resistance will result. Resistance causes heat, and in extreme cases can lead to arcing. As the heat increases, the connections become even worse, and even more heat is generated, which can eventually cause the fuseholder, or the plastic body of the fuse to melt. To prevent this from happening, the sockets of the fuseholder must be a tight fit on the blades of the fuse. In some cases a gentle squeeze with a wide, flat pair of pliers can help, but there are some junk fuseholders out there that will simply never be good enough. A simple test... if you can pull the fuse out fairly easily with just your fingertips, the fuseholder sockets are too loose.
Regarding adding the "second fuse", if you connect two fuses in parallel as shown in one of the photos, the fuse rating is equal to the sum of the fuses used, if the fuses are of equal value. The benefit of multiple fuses is reduced current through each one, which reduced heating caused by resistance losses. However, you must make sure that the SUM of the total fuse amperage does not exceed the original rating for the circuit. So, those should be two 15A fuses, NOT two 30A fuses!
Good luck with the problem, I don't have much experience with your specific issue, but I have 30 years of experience in 12 volt electronics.
Thanks Garry, looking at the damage it appears to be the fuse holder that has melted, (particulary inside) so you may be onto something there :unsure:
Tonight coming home from work, temp showing -1c outside in freezing fog/rain in the middle of nowhere in traffic jams I started to smell burning and started to panic, when i got home I checked the fuse and they didn't even seem hot. Maybe there was another VFR nearby!
[image: View Post]vfr_steve, on 16 December 2009 - 12:31 AM, said:
Thanks Garry, looking at the damage it appears to be the fuse holder that has melted, (particulary inside) so you may be onto something there :unsure:
Tonight coming home from work, temp showing -1c outside in freezing fog/rain in the middle of nowhere in traffic jams I started to smell burning and started to panic, when i got home I checked the fuse and they didn't even seem hot. Maybe there was another VFR nearby!
Take off your RHS fairing and check the connectors for melting due to the same arcing mentioned by racerman... mine went AFTER I had swapped out a melted stator... which also happened on my way home from work one day... I smelt burning and could actually see the smoke coming out the RHS fairing duct... pulled over about 100 m down at a gas station... started cleaning things up and thinking about how to patch it up... figured I'd cut the wires back and leg it home (10 minutes max) running off the battery alone...
The first thing that came into my head was bad new stator going AWOL... but in the stator's fine... I figure it was from opening and closing the stator-R/R connector all those times when diagnosing the original problem and the metal tabs of the fast-ons inside the plastic housing had worked their way open somewhat... causing arcing and consequent melting of the plastic connector... I currently have the wires spliced directly.. no connector...
CHECK THIS CONNECTOR and ANY OTHER you been playing with recently...
I've had zero issues since but have noticed the wires are heating up overmuch... probably due to my amateur soldering skills...
