I see WAY more posts and threads on how to increase power and mechanical changes for the VFR to improve BIKE performance but VERY few threads on how to RIDE the VFR for better RIDER performance.
What's wrong with this picture?.... :blink:
I still maintain that the vast majority of members can't come close to riding a stock VFR to it's potential in the curves. To me, a sport bike is meant to perform in the twisties. Anybody can go fast in a straight line.
Let's hear some dialogue on what counts....RIDER SKILL... :wheel: :blink:
[image: View Post]Bent, on 06 March 2010 - 08:27 PM, said:
I still maintain that the vast majority of members can't come close to riding a stock VFR to it's potential in the curves. To me, a sport bike is meant to perform in the twisties. Anybody can go fast in a straight line.
I agree completely. Most people have no idea just how nimble the VFR can be in the twisties. It's often easier for people to compensate for lack of skill with more power than to tighten the nut attached to the handlebars.
Skill is almost everything. I can ride the circles around my buddy's gsxr 600. Knowing how to ride the vfr and taking advantage of its agility and torque is your best bet.
Good thread topic, Jim. I doubt I will ever outride my VFR's capabilities (tho I'd like to get to that point someday, lol). That's one reason I don't own a supersport. A CBR, Gixxer, Ninja, etc. might be easier to ride fast and corner hard, but it's still the pilot giving the inputs.
You can mod the hell out of a VFR to make it lighter, handle better and/or add a few ponies, but for many of us improving riding skills should be the priority.
I've seen this posted on a few sites and have to say I agree. Not only is a track day or school a lot of fun (only done a track day here) but it makes you a much better rider in the future.
Promised myself about ten years ago to take a ride-skills class every other year.
Hasn't quite turned out like that but I've managed three in that time and every time I took a class I reckon I learnt (and re-learnt!!) heaps!
It's certainly helped that my work (until just recently :blink: ) significantly subsidised the cost of rider safety courses for its employees.
Who needs skills when they make strait pipes that will annoy any and everyone..
Trackdays are a great place to push your limits and learn from your peers..
It's all about skill. Power is useless or even detrimental, if you can't control it properly. :fing02:
[image: View Post]VFR4Lee, on 07 March 2010 - 08:25 PM, said:
It's all about skill. Power is useless or even detrimental, if you can't control it properly. :fing02:
would you mind placing a call to the capitol? :goofy:
Yeah, but the guy riding motocross style (X in illustration) gets rid of his "chicken strips" first.
Hope you got out to ride today. Big crowd in Lynchburg today. Mostly cruisers, but they make a good slalom course on TN129! Convinced a 'vette rider today that he was no match for a VFR on a twisty road.
Who needs skills, I gutted my exhaust! :fing02:
You hit the nail right on the head!! Skill is the most important thing, that probably most of us lack. Just like most everything else it's the person not machine.
Was taking to a VFR owner today at are weekly coffee and he has $1000 dollars burning a hole in his pocket wants to make it fast to keep up with his buddies on GSXR's told him to invest in suspension and do some trackdays... He left with GP suspensions number... We will see...
Dan
I think Baily already proved this theory.
Didn't he post some times in his thread on his accident and actually go faster on his VFR than he did on another lighter, faster bike?
I also proved the None-Crash worthiness of this Old Body! :goofy:
But I did run faster on the Viffer on the track than I did on the GSXR 750 w/o even trying. Looking forward to more development of that bike one day! :lurk:
Can't beat rider education period, you'll be much faster & safer learning how to ride than any group of Mods will ever provide.
200 hp does nothing for you in a Turn! http://www.vfrdiscus...tyle_emoticons/default/tongue.gif
BR
[image: View Post]rufussrgnt, on 07 March 2010 - 09:07 PM, said:
Yeah, but the guy riding motocross style (X in illustration) gets rid of his "chicken strips" first.
Hope you got out to ride today. Big crowd in Lynchburg today. Mostly cruisers, but they make a good slalom course on TN129! Convinced a 'vette rider today that he was no match for a VFR on a twisty road.
Atta boy!! That's funny, because I only had time to put in a quick 80 miles of twisties yesterday and there was a "herd" of Harleys doing 37 whole mph in front of me. There were some really nice turns coming up so I "had" to do some "Harley slalom riding" too. Was I too rude?? :goofy:
As far as the Vette, I had an '03 ZO6 and my stock VFR will run away from it on the same roads I used to play on with the Vette. Although in a straight line, the Vette will keep going when the VFR is out of power.
Back to the subject at hand, surely somebody has to disagree and say that rider skill isn't important!! :goofy: :lurk:
Couldn't agree with all of you more!
However, this site is VFRD - VFR Discussion. It is a place for all of us who own VFR's to gather and lie to each other. :goofy:
Seriously, Keith Code has a website dedicated strictly to riding skills. Check it out.
http://forums.superbikeschool.com/
[image: View Post]Bent, on 08 March 2010 - 04:24 PM, said:
Back to the subject at hand, surely somebody has to disagree and say that rider skill isn't important!! :lurk: :goofy:
OK, Your skill is not important! :goofy:
skillz are good
losing 20 lbs to make the bike faster and lower the center of gravity helps too.
now for a track day...
[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on 08 March 2010 - 04:31 PM, said:
Couldn't agree with all of you more!
However, this site is VFRD - VFR Discussion. It is a place for all of us who own VFR's to gather and lie to each other. :goofy:
Seriously, Keith Code has a website dedicated strictly to riding skills. Check it out.
http://forums.superbikeschool.com/
OK, without getting technical, I ride with, what for me, is a good mix of counter-steering and weight transfer. Always go through a turn with power going to the back wheel to the right degree. Power is traction unless it's too much power. One of the biggest faults I observe other riders (not) doing is looking through the curves well. This, is the kiss of death sooner or later.
I like Reg Pridmore's philsophy that "RPM's are your friend". That means having enough rev's such that power is instant when needed in a turn but not so high there is nothing left or smooth throttle management becomes impossible. I completely disregard where I am on the tach as relates to VTEC engagement. It just doesn't matter to me when or where it engages because "smooth" riding or driving is one of the first things taught at rider, driver schools. If the rear wheel starts to slide, very quickly and gently give it a little bit of power and it will quit the slide....so far it has.... :cool:
When it comes to shifting, try to do it quickly with minimal or no loss of rpm's. This takes practice for newer riders but translates to better control, quickness, and smoothness.
Lastly, always pass the bike in front of you....it's in the way..... :lurk:
Now, that's all ya need to know about riding a VFR from a "whatchamacallit" rider.... :goofy: :goofy:
Oh, and you're right, BR, I just rely on luck all the time.... http://www.vfrdiscus...tyle_emoticons/default/tongue.gif
[image: View Post]Bent, on 08 March 2010 - 04:55 PM, said:
One of the biggest faults I observe other riders (not) doing is looking through the curves well. This, is the kiss of death sooner or later.
I have to agree and think that this is the number one reason for crashes, Riders Not looking through the turn no matter how fast or slow your going! :unsure:
BR
Well, I'm going to do some track days this year for the first time. I've been reluctant to do so because I thought every one at the track would be far superior in skills to me, but I'm told that's just not so. And you can't easily get better and safer, if you don't go to the track. So I'm dragging my bones over to NJMP this year to get me some good learnin'. Believe it starts in March some time, with the first session being a freebie. Posted Image
[image: View Post]BaileyRock, on 08 March 2010 - 05:23 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Bent, on 08 March 2010 - 04:55 PM, said:
One of the biggest faults I observe other riders (not) doing is looking through the curves well. This, is the kiss of death sooner or later.
I have to agree and think that this is the number one reason for crashes, Riders Not looking through the turn no matter how fast or slow your going! :unsure:
BR
:+1: I preach that above anything else with newer riders, the old ones like me get the same cuz we forget stuff all the time, dang ole timers disease :goofy:
I'll certainly never approach the limits of my VFR, at least, not on purpose. http://www.vfrdiscus...tyle_emoticons/default/wink.gif
I'd certainly like to take a track school (safe environment) to get a better handle on what I'm capable of while riding a sport-bike. Some day....
[image: View Post]BaileyRock, on 08 March 2010 - 05:23 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Bent, on 08 March 2010 - 04:55 PM, said:
One of the biggest faults I observe other riders (not) doing is looking through the curves well. This, is the kiss of death sooner or later.
I have to agree and think that this is the number one reason for crashes, Riders Not looking through the turn no matter how fast or slow your going! :unsure:
BR
Discussed above is a focused interpretation of what is, in my opinion, one of the Golden Rules of riding a motorcycle. It's not just about looking through a turn - the rule is: LOOK WHERE YOU WANT TO GO. If you're entering a turn, you look as far ahead in the turn as you can while scanning the road in many varying degrees to the left and right, and in front of you, so you can avoid obstacles. If you're riding in a straight line, you look to the horizon for balance & orientation, while still scanning left/right/in front & behind you(mirrors).
This is part of being AWARE. If you're not aware that the road is bending left sharply, you're going to have an oh sh!t moment once you figure it out... I'll stop now... there are much more well-written articles all over the web and in libraries.
[image: View Post]BaileyRock, on 08 March 2010 - 04:10 PM, said:
I also proved the None-Crash worthiness of this Old Body! :unsure:
But I did run faster on the Viffer on the track than I did on the GSXR 750 w/o even trying. Looking forward to more development of that bike one day! :goofy:
Can't beat rider education period, you'll be much faster & safer learning how to ride than any group of Mods will ever provide.
200 hp does nothing for you in a Turn! http://www.vfrdiscus...tyle_emoticons/default/tongue.gif
BR
"200 hp does nothing for you in a turn" NUFF SAID
[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 08 March 2010 - 07:07 PM, said:
[image: View Post]BaileyRock, on 08 March 2010 - 05:23 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Bent, on 08 March 2010 - 04:55 PM, said:
One of the biggest faults I observe other riders (not) doing is looking through the curves well. This, is the kiss of death sooner or later.
I have to agree and think that this is the number one reason for crashes, Riders Not looking through the turn no matter how fast or slow your going! :unsure:
BR
Discussed above is a focused interpretation of what is, in my opinion, one of the Golden Rules of riding a motorcycle. It's not just about looking through a turn - the rule is: LOOK WHERE YOU WANT TO GO. If you're entering a turn, you look as far ahead in the turn as you can while scanning the road in many varying degrees to the left and right, and in front of you, so you can avoid obstacles. If you're riding in a straight line, you look to the horizon for balance & orientation, while still scanning left/right/in front & behind you(mirrors).
This is part of being AWARE. If you're not aware that the road is bending left sharply, you're going to have an oh sh!t moment once you figure it out... I'll stop now... there are much more well-written articles all over the web and in libraries.
:goofy: Thanks for clarifying and adding to that Seb. You Never want to look at what your trying to avoid!
I think more power is actually detrimental to my cornering speeds. I'm the fastest in the twisties, on the least powerful machine in my garage, the TDM. It's the only bike I've ridden, where I commonly feel like I'm really doing the twisties well.
Look where you want to go is a good one to remember. :goofy:
I don't think more power hurts in the corner, as long as you don't overdo it.
I go better and faster through the twisties on my aprilia. Not because of the extra power, but because it weighs less, and mostly because it has a lower mileage and better suspension. :unsure:
[image: View Post]BaileyRock, on 08 March 2010 - 08:01 PM, said:
[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 08 March 2010 - 07:07 PM, said:
[image: View Post]BaileyRock, on 08 March 2010 - 05:23 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Bent, on 08 March 2010 - 04:55 PM, said:
One of the biggest faults I observe other riders (not) doing is looking through the curves well. This, is the kiss of death sooner or later.
I have to agree and think that this is the number one reason for crashes, Riders Not looking through the turn no matter how fast or slow your going! Posted Image
BR
Discussed above is a focused interpretation of what is, in my opinion, one of the Golden Rules of riding a motorcycle. It's not just about looking through a turn - the rule is: LOOK WHERE YOU WANT TO GO. If you're entering a turn, you look as far ahead in the turn as you can while scanning the road in many varying degrees to the left and right, and in front of you, so you can avoid obstacles. If you're riding in a straight line, you look to the horizon for balance & orientation, while still scanning left/right/in front & behind you(mirrors).
This is part of being AWARE. If you're not aware that the road is bending left sharply, you're going to have an oh sh!t moment once you figure it out... I'll stop now... there are much more well-written articles all over the web and in libraries.
Posted Image Thanks for clarifying and adding to that Seb. You Never want to look at what your trying to avoid!
Seb, I've heard that referred to as "target fixation". If you look at the hazard (target), that's where you will end up. Good advice here!
Other than skill,one needs confidence and experience. We also need to really know what is happening, why it is happening and what to do if the happenings are not good.
While I never will be seriously fast,or even as fast as I think I am, I try to take at least one little nugget from every ride, either bad or good,and store it in the database.
An example is when we pullover and think about the glorious Rossi slide that we just saved, when we should know and realize that we just ran over a pebble and moved the rear wheel a centimeter. There was a good article recently about the pros and cons of "Letting it happen" vs "Saving a crash"and recognizing the difference between the two.
:rolleyes: :wheel: :beer: :bliss:
[image: View Post]Knife, on 09 March 2010 - 01:11 PM, said:
Seb, I've heard that referred to as "target fixation". If you look at the hazard (target), that's where you will end up. Good advice here!
Right, the bottom line is, don't focus/fixate on one object for more than a few milliseconds while moving, or you will drift towards it.
Be aware of your surroundings and where you want to go, look at where you want to go instead of where you don't want to go, know your path and keep alert for anything that may cross, obstruct, or otherwise impede upon it.
2. Trust your tires.
3. When in doubt, gas it.
4. Brakes only slo- ... wait a sec, those are Bailey's rulez!! :wheel:
:rolleyes:
FWIW, the term "Target Fixation" comes from WW2. Pilots would concentrate on the targets they were strafing so intently, they would fly their planes into the ground (target). Slightly more severe consequences than those we experience, but you get the idea.
Your bike (vehicle) goes where you look. Have you ever noticed when you're driving down the road in your car that if you start staring at a bill board or some super hot chick, the next thing you know you're in the next lane over or you're running off the road. Same principle.
[image: View Post]Knife, on 09 March 2010 - 01:11 PM, said:
[image: View Post]BaileyRock, on 08 March 2010 - 08:01 PM, said:
[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 08 March 2010 - 07:07 PM, said:
[image: View Post]BaileyRock, on 08 March 2010 - 05:23 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Bent, on 08 March 2010 - 04:55 PM, said:
One of the biggest faults I observe other riders (not) doing is looking through the curves well. This, is the kiss of death sooner or later.
I have to agree and think that this is the number one reason for crashes, Riders Not looking through the turn no matter how fast or slow your going! Posted Image
BR
Discussed above is a focused interpretation of what is, in my opinion, one of the Golden Rules of riding a motorcycle. It's not just about looking through a turn - the rule is: LOOK WHERE YOU WANT TO GO. If you're entering a turn, you look as far ahead in the turn as you can while scanning the road in many varying degrees to the left and right, and in front of you, so you can avoid obstacles. If you're riding in a straight line, you look to the horizon for balance & orientation, while still scanning left/right/in front & behind you(mirrors).
This is part of being AWARE. If you're not aware that the road is bending left sharply, you're going to have an oh sh!t moment once you figure it out... I'll stop now... there are much more well-written articles all over the web and in libraries.
Posted Image Thanks for clarifying and adding to that Seb. You Never want to look at what your trying to avoid!
Seb, I've heard that referred to as "target fixation". If you look at the hazard (target), that's where you will end up. Good advice here!
That's exactly right and is the natural thing for newbies to do that don't much time riding time under their belt yet. One way to prove this is, next time out riding, stare at a tree near the road and hope for the best.... :fing02:
Well I'll toss in my 2 cents. The VFR is not really that easy to turn compared to some others out there, but turned properly it can do anything any other bike can do. The WeeStrom for example seemed to turn effortlessly, to the point where technique seemed to matter less.
With a bike like the VFR that is powerful and somewhat heavy I find that body position and prepping in advance of the turn can make life a lot easier. Slide over a bit, point the inside shoulder, and of course, look well through the turn to the exit. Decide whether the vanishing point is moving toward you or away. Relax the grip. Be happy. Find your rhythm.
:tour:
That staring at a rock in the other lane then grabbing too much brake
is a B*t*h :fing02:
Don't ask me how I know but it was a learning moment for sure
:goofy:
[image: View Post]timmythecop, on 09 March 2010 - 01:26 PM, said:
Other than skill,one needs confidence and experience. We also need to really know what is happening, why it is happening and what to do if the happenings are not good.
While I never will be seriously fast,or even as fast as I think I am, I try to take at least one little nugget from every ride, either bad or good,and store it in the database.
An example is when we pullover and think about the glorious Rossi slide that we just saved, when we should know and realize that we just ran over a pebble and moved the rear wheel a centimeter. There was a good article recently about the pros and cons of "Letting it happen" vs "Saving a crash"and recognizing the difference between the two.
:bliss: :bliss: :bliss: :bliss:
I agree about the experience and confidence being a major factor in being a great rider. I firmly believe in the concept of "If you think you are going to crash then you probably will; if you believe you will handle the situation then you are much more likely to survive". Having confidence keeps you totally involved the solution. Lack of confidence will cause you to give up and let it happen. And confidence comes from learning experience. Getting it from an expert and then practicing is the best (fastest) way to achieve confidence.
Thanks for the lessons at the TMac Bent.
On this topic... Headed to California superbike school 2 day program in just over a month. Looking forward to improving the skills and having a blast while doing it.
Best money I have spent ever since I started riding was taking the MSF basic/experienced rider courses and having jamie work some suspension magic!
[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on 09 March 2010 - 03:20 PM, said:
Your bike (vehicle) goes where you look. Have you ever noticed when you're driving down the road in your car that if you start staring at a bill board or some super hot chick, the next thing you know you're in the next lane over or you're running off the road. Same principle.
So true. You don't know how many times I've ended up
smack dab in the middle of a huge pair of..........
[image: View Post]festertruck, on 18 October 2011 - 07:40 PM, said:
On this topic... Headed to California superbike school 2 day program in just over a month. Looking forward to improving the skills and having a blast while doing it.
One of the best things you can do for your skills. I took CSS back when the GPz550 was their bike of choice. More than making me faster, it made me a better rider, able to handle bike control situations of all kinds. They still do things in much the same way as they did back then; but they're using BMW S1000RR's.
Listen to the instructors. Learn those skills. Then practice whenever you have the chance.
[image: View Post]festertruck, on 18 October 2011 - 07:40 PM, said:
On this topic... Headed to California superbike school 2 day program in just over a month. Looking forward to improving the skills and having a blast while doing it.
@festertruck: how was cali?
@anyone else: is there a good superbike school closer to austin or at least in texas?
Frankly, I think 100HP is more than most people in this forum can handle safely/competently out on the road anyway.
We all just get swept into the intoxiacting effect of more and more power.........Testosterones......that's all it is.... :rolleyes:
Beck
95 VFR.
having just come from a bigger, faster, much more powerful bike, I'm with Beck on this one. The VFR gives up little to "faster" bikes on actual roads. sure a zx10 will ditch me on a straight, given its ridden equally well, but they rarely are and a few bumps upset that race chassis pretty quickly. The new stuff is really nice but the rider is a much bigger factor than the bike, one of the things Ive always loved about motorcycles.
[image: View Post]Bent, on 06 March 2010 - 08:27 PM, said:
I see WAY more posts and threads on how to increase power and mechanical changes for the VFR to improve BIKE performance but VERY few threads on how to RIDE the VFR for better RIDER performance.
What's wrong with this picture?.... Posted Image
I still maintain that the vast majority of members can't come close to riding a stock VFR to it's potential in the curves. To me, a sport bike is meant to perform in the twisties. Anybody can go fast in a straight line.
Let's hear some dialogue on what counts....RIDER SKILL... :wheel: Posted Image
You have self induced crashes via Pro emulators, but majority of motocyclists just get run over for lack of tactics and strategy with threats.
You can be an expert track rider, and still be totally ignorant in this regard and get run over, bike skill and the use of strategy and tactics, will set one far above the accident waiting to Happen.
Left hand turn
Pullouts from side streets
Vehicles cutting corners or coming in your lane
Deer/dog episodes
Most Never train for these threats or learn how to engage, to ensure a higher level of safety.
[image: View Post]staintube, on 28 October 2011 - 03:56 PM, said:
[image: View Post]festertruck, on 18 October 2011 - 07:40 PM, said:
On this topic... Headed to California superbike school 2 day program in just over a month. Looking forward to improving the skills and having a blast while doing it.
@festertruck: how was cali?
@anyone else: is there a good superbike school closer to austin or at least in texas?
@Staintube, I took the California Superbike School when they were at Barbers track in Birmingham, Ala., a few years ago. I was very impressed with their program, and would very much like to do it again some time. I don't see that they have 2012 dates listed, but they did not have any TX locations listed for 2011. Still, it's worth looking at their website:
http://www.superbikeschool.com/
I have not taken the Lee Parks' Total Control Advanced Riding Clinic, but I've heard good things about it from others. And it appears that they do come to the Dallas/Elgin area:
http://www.totalcont....net/index.html
-Ron
I think the problem with discussing better riding/skill habit post, than say doing modifications, is that it's easier to talk about the new pipes you put in or the removal of excess weight and/or superfluous hardware to gain a few HP. Trying to tell someone how to ride a particular way or tell them what they might be doing wrong without witnessing their riding style is much more difficult, especially without pictures. How many mod postings have you seen where someone post pictures of the mod they did step by step.
I have been riding for 30 years, both street and dirt, on two an three wheeled vehicles, as a plain rider and as a racer. Most of the mods I did were not strictly about horsepower but about vehicle performance, suspension, ergonomic setup, motor tuning, etc. One of the best words of advice i received from a more experienced racer was "No matter how fast the other guy can go, if he cannot control his vehicle, he will never finish up front. Setup your ride for overall performance not just speed". I have followed that advice and found it to be pretty sound. Most of the mods I have and will be doing is to smooth out the bike to make it a better overall performer.
I was fortunate enough to have friends and relatives who were better riders than me, be available to mentor me in my early days of riding, as that helped form my good habits. I have also been fortunate to have attended riding classes, track days and even the California Super Bike School. Have I learned all i need to know? Not by a long shot. I agree that rider safety and protection should be a high priority, but i think it works best in a person to person or group environment. I'm not saying that we should stop posting rider safety and skill topics, just saying why we probably don't see as many. I plan to take some refresher courses and possibly do some track days next year as I really feel that as we get older and more relaxed, we tend to forget some of the basics or even drift into bad habits. Thanks for listening.
Cheers!
End of thread · 47 posts recovered Wayback Machine snapshot 15 Jul 2012