Dumb Brake question

Ok, seems kind of dumb to ask but what do I need to know about the linked braking system? Should I just use one of the brakes? Is there a difference if I used both like I'm used to? Any special tips? Spanks...

[image: View Post]danmurphymn, on 16 March 2010 - 11:50 AM, said:

Ok, seems kind of dumb to ask but what do I need to know about the linked braking system? Should I just use one of the brakes? Is there a difference if I used both like I'm used to? Any special tips? Spanks...
There are no dumb questions, only dumb answers, so I'll try not to be dumb! :goofy:
If you use both, you get more braking power, as the back brake operates an extra piston in the front, and vice-versa. Another kewl thing about the DCBS is that using only the back brake on greasy or slippery surfaces (like unsealed roads) gives pretty good retardation, with less fear of lockup, as it operates two cylinders in the back brake caliper, and one in the front. The nett result is you can stamp on it pretty hard, and it works better'n a conventional rear brake.
So my answer (and some will disagree) is to use both brakes, except when you're going slowly and the road is slippery, when you can use just the back brake. Some people don't like using the back brake as a 'rudder' when doing slow-speed manouevres, as it operates the front brakes slightly, and could (in theory) tip you on your head, but I've never had problems with that.

When you pull the brake lever the left caliper (you'll note it's on a pivoting mount) also engages one of the two pistons on the rear caliper. Likewise, when you press the rear pedal, one of the front pistons is engaged. Use the controls as normal (i.e. favor the front for the lion's share of braking force) and you'll note less front-end dive and more stability overall. :fing02:

I find the linked brakes work best if you pretend they aren't there and let them do their job. Nothing special required on your part. They're well designed and work quite well.

As far as the parking lot comments, it's the torquing of the brake caliper that activates the linked brakes, and this only occurs under heavy braking, so you can still activate only the rear brake for slow speed maneuvering.

[image: View Post]Ryanme17, on 16 March 2010 - 08:57 AM, said:

I find the linked brakes work best if you pretend they aren't there and let them do their job. Nothing special required on your part. They're well designed and work quite well.
+1. I use both brakes most of the time and never think twice about the Combined Braking System (or CBS), whether using one or both brakes. I like the fact it prevents some fork dive, too.

Most non-CBS bike owners hate it, but other than a weight penalty I don't see the problem.

[image: View Post]Ryanme17, on 16 March 2010 - 08:57 AM, said:

As far as the parking lot comments, it's the torquing of the brake caliper that activates the linked brakes, and this only occurs under heavy braking, so you can still activate only the rear brake for slow speed maneuvering.

I don't think this is exactly true. The torquing of the front brake activates the rear -but the rear pedal directly operates the center piston in each front brake. That's the way it bleeds when you do the brakes -no torquing required. The rear pedal to front center piston hydraulic line runs direct and only through the T-splitter/"Delay" valve on the fork leg (I'm not sure exactly how this delay thing even works because it doesn't seem to be any "delay" at all in my experience). There is no Proportional Control Valve for this pedal/front-center-piston circuit other than the "Delay" which is sort of like Black Magic IMHO. (or marketing hype).

In my experience, the rear brake puts WAY too much force on the fronts in certain situations like on loose gravel or dirt. When you are riding around on grass like at a group camping site and there is a little bit of dew on the ground it gets downright spooky even for an old dirt racer who's braking technique off-road is hard-wired in the brain and nerves in the right fingers and right toes from long experience. Learning to "unlearn" proper braking techniques and relearn this wild linked improper braking technique causes a lot of cognitive dissonance at times. Riding off-road with the VFR (or even on unPAVED roads is a seriously diminished experience with the linked brakes. I wish Honda hadn't saddled the bike with this unwanted (at least in my case) tech.

But on the paved road the brakes seem to work OK. The feel and power of a truly world-class sportbike braking system isn't there, but they work OK. I wish that Honda had just put Awesome binders on the VFR instead of the "everyman's" least common denominator LBS system. It's a compromise, and I understand why they did it. I just am not very happy with it. Someday I'll de-link but it's a lot of work and expense :(

I love my linked (w/ABS) brakes on my 07 :cheerleader:

I almost never use the rear brake unless riding 2up, than the extra stopping power is helpfully because of the extra weight. But all the other times its just grab the front brake and pull, pull, pull, no fear no worries. Even in panic stops.

Its true some do not like it, says it takes away the feel or real riders do not need it. Goes the same for ABS, who needs ABS right? Well I know for a fact my ABS system has saved my ass once before, at the fault of some dumb cager and not my own. So I for one am happy Honda put it on my VFR.

[image: View Post]Serenity_VFR, on 16 March 2010 - 09:39 AM, said:

. . . . . . cognitive dissonance . . . . . .

A girl in my high school algebra class had cognitive dissonance. Whatever that is. :huh:

[image: View Post]TimC, on 17 March 2010 - 02:07 AM, said:

+1. I use both brakes most of the time and never think twice about the Combined Braking System (or CBS), whether using one or both brakes. I like the fact it prevents some fork dive, too.
Oh yeah - I forgot about that benefit! :fing02:

[image: View Post]TimC, on 17 March 2010 - 02:07 AM, said:

... other than a weight penalty I don't see the problem.
The bleeding is much more tricky than on a 'normal' (i.e., less well-equipped) bike.

[image: View Post]Serenity_VFR, on 17 March 2010 - 02:39 AM, said:

In my experience, the rear brake puts WAY too much force on the fronts in certain situations like on loose gravel or dirt.
A few years ago, I found the exact opposite to be true. We (my wife and I, and our luggage) ended up riding maybe 60km of unsealed roads, and I found that using only the rear gave me Eggs Zachary the right amount of braking for these roads. I never once felt insecure when braking. Sure, ABS would've been more betterer, but I didn't have it (and up until the VFR1200, I don't think any HOndas here have had it. In fact, I'm not even sure about the 1200...) Conventional brakes may have given more finesse, but the DCBS allowed me to just hit the pedal and not worry about it at all (after the first few times....)

[image: View Post]enzed_viffer, on 16 March 2010 - 02:28 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Serenity_VFR, on 17 March 2010 - 02:39 AM, said:

In my experience, the rear brake puts WAY too much force on the fronts in certain situations like on loose gravel or dirt.
A few years ago, I found the exact opposite to be true. We (my wife and I, and our luggage) ended up riding maybe 60km of unsealed roads, and I found that using only the rear gave me Eggs Zachary the right amount of braking for these roads. I never once felt insecure when braking. Sure, ABS would've been more betterer, but I didn't have it (and up until the VFR1200, I don't think any HOndas here have had it. In fact, I'm not even sure about the 1200...) Conventional brakes may have given more finesse, but the DCBS allowed me to just hit the pedal and not worry about it at all (after the first few times....)

It's really hard to lock up the rear to get the bike sideways and plowing without feeding too much brake to the front, causing it to tuck uncomfortably -a tuck that wants to hook up too hard when you get back on the gas quick to avoid the back end from hooking up as you back it through the apex. Like I said, it's spooky and not a good feeling to this old dirt rider.

YMMV.

[image: View Post]Serenity_VFR, on 16 March 2010 - 03:22 PM, said:

[image: View Post]enzed_viffer, on 16 March 2010 - 02:28 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Serenity_VFR, on 17 March 2010 - 02:39 AM, said:

In my experience, the rear brake puts WAY too much force on the fronts in certain situations like on loose gravel or dirt.
A few years ago, I found the exact opposite to be true. We (my wife and I, and our luggage) ended up riding maybe 60km of unsealed roads, and I found that using only the rear gave me Eggs Zachary the right amount of braking for these roads. I never once felt insecure when braking. Sure, ABS would've been more betterer, but I didn't have it (and up until the VFR1200, I don't think any HOndas here have had it. In fact, I'm not even sure about the 1200...) Conventional brakes may have given more finesse, but the DCBS allowed me to just hit the pedal and not worry about it at all (after the first few times....)

It's really hard to lock up the rear to get the bike sideways and plowing without feeding too much brake to the front, causing it to tuck uncomfortably -a tuck that wants to hook up too hard when you get back on the gas quick to avoid the back end from hooking up as you back it through the apex. Like I said, it's spooky and not a good feeling to this old dirt rider.

YMMV.

Not sure which model year you have, but I know the amount of front brake bias was reduced in later years. I have the year 2006 stuck in my mind, but won't swear by it. When the reduced front bias was done, I believe they went from two pistons to one piston (front) activated by rear pedal.

Brian

[image: View Post]Serenity_VFR, on 16 March 2010 - 03:22 PM, said:

[image: View Post]enzed_viffer, on 16 March 2010 - 02:28 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Serenity_VFR, on 17 March 2010 - 02:39 AM, said:

In my experience, the rear brake puts WAY too much force on the fronts in certain situations like on loose gravel or dirt.
A few years ago, I found the exact opposite to be true. We (my wife and I, and our luggage) ended up riding maybe 60km of unsealed roads, and I found that using only the rear gave me Eggs Zachary the right amount of braking for these roads. I never once felt insecure when braking. Sure, ABS would've been more betterer, but I didn't have it (and up until the VFR1200, I don't think any HOndas here have had it. In fact, I'm not even sure about the 1200...) Conventional brakes may have given more finesse, but the DCBS allowed me to just hit the pedal and not worry about it at all (after the first few times....)

It's really hard to lock up the rear to get the bike sideways and plowing without feeding too much brake to the front, causing it to tuck uncomfortably -a tuck that wants to hook up too hard when you get back on the gas quick to avoid the back end from hooking up as you back it through the apex. Like I said, it's spooky and not a good feeling to this old dirt rider.

YMMV.

Serenity_VFR, I'm guessing that most people that ride VFR's (on the street) probably don't attempt to purposefully lock the rear tire by use of the brakes to plow through corners. You have the good fortune of growing up on dirt bikes and have obviously gained some pretty mad skills that most of us probably don't have!

Danmurphymn's question is really a good one as linked brakes and ABS are just now becoming available/popular on street bikes. As I understand it, Honda uses linked brakes on bikes basically to perform two functions: To help increase braking efficiency (stop sooner) and to help maintain a more stable platform (reserve traction) while accelerating/turning/stopping. ABS is there to help people brake more efficiently (stop sooner) by enabling maximum deceleration while on limited-traction or inconsistent braking surfaces (wet, uneven, moss-covered or gravel roads) without the drama of a front or rear wheel lockup and subsequent crash or close-call.

If we look at crash statistics, we will see that many are caused by improper braking--so many in fact that the insurance companies are now lobbying for mandatory ABS brakes on bikes...

Danmurphymn, you are fortunate to own a bike that has both linked and ABS brakes. As many others above have said so well, pretend they aren't even there. Practice using both the front and rear brakes almost every time you brake--cuz that's what you will do when the $%#* hit's the fan.

Use only the rear when you are doing slow speed maneuvers such as navigating parking lots or slowly moving in stop and go traffic. Many police agencies around the world use the Honda ST1300P which has a similar linked/ABS brake system. Police riders are the kings of slow speed maneuvers and I guarantee if the rear to front link was too biased towards the front(causing slow speed problems), they wouldn't be riding the ST1300P.

The only other suggestion I have for you is to regularly practice emergency braking. Grab a buddy, gear up, go to an abandoned road or long parking lot and actually practice making emergency stops from different speeds. Start at slow speeds and work your way up. Gain confidence as you practice. Don't be afraid to do the same exercises on the same parking lot in the rain! Always use both brakes which is the most efficient way of stopping on your bike.

The VFR is a very stable and forgiving ride. I've ridden mine in mud, on grass and on gravel roads... I love the linked and ABS brakes and feel the only thing missing from the late model VFR800 is a traction-control system that kicks in when over-accelerating... A saving grace is that the bike is a chain-drive V4 that is void of drive-line lash and is incredibly balanced...A truly great wet-weather bike.

Anyway, I will never again own another bike without ABS. I also hope to never be without linked brakes and traction-control!

[image: View Post]Bthomas, on 17 March 2010 - 06:24 PM, said:

The only other suggestion I have for you is to regularly practice emergency braking.
That's a very good suggestion.
While I have been riding bikes since about 1973, a couple of years ago I was momentarily distracted by a dog on the side of the road, and stopped about 3 inches too late, ending up with my front wheel in the rear bumper of the car in front. No damage was done to the car (flexibel plastic bumper), but I cracked the front fender of the VFR. After wards I practised emergency braking, and frankly I was kinda shocked at how violent it felt compared to normal hard braking.
Apparently, the biggest problem with ABS-equipped vehicles is that the owners rarely practise emergency braking manouevres, and so don't brake hard enough when they really need to. (Also, with cars they don't take advantage of being able to still steer while braking). As a result, when they need to save themselves, they don't stomp on the brakes hard enough. The same goes with bikes - if you haven't practised emergency braking and avoidance so it becomes second nature, you're unlikely to react appropriately. I've totalled two bikes because of this: neither crash was legally my fault, but both could have been avoided had I trained myself properly.