New Guy with a problem

Hi

First let me introduce myself.

I took up motorcycling after the kids had left home and my little one (25 years old 6 ft 4") suggested we did the MSF course together. I really enjoyed riding  and so I  bought a Shadow 750 May 2009. I've since put 9000 miles on it.. Then I tried a friends VFR and had to get one .

6 weeks ago I got a  2004 with13.6k miles, it came with a few extras a Scotts steering dampener, Corbin seat, stain-tune exhaust & a power commander 3  all for $4000 which I thought was a good price.  I've since added a GPS and a GIVI top case. I really love the bike it is so much fun to ride. Shame I can't sell the shadow to help pay for it. I advertised it  on Craigslist and so far haven't had any replies. I guess I'll have to wait till the spring.

Anyway now to my problem. The bike is now approaching 16k miles so I just changed the oil and filter and the air filter. I put in a K&N filter. Now the bike seems to have lost half it's power at 60 mph in 6th  gear I used to only need to open the throttle a little to overtake anything. I now have to open the throttle fully. I've never opened the throttle fully before as the bike would just take off and leave me behind! it had so much power. A lso the bike did not like running below 3500 RPM in any gear except 1st  & 2nd it now fine down to 2000 rpm in any gear. So I'm guessing the K& N filter is supplying more air and making the  mixture leaner. Yes I did reconnect the vacuum pipe after fitting the air filter, I don't see that I could have screwed up anything.

What's anyone's experience with K& N filters. Do I need to mess with the power commander fuel map.  It did not come with any PC  cables or a manual.

BTW this is a great site loads of good information. I got the message I've attached a pic of my bike. Any advice with my problem gratefully received

attachment=7196:bike 1.jpg]

Attached Images

• [image: bike 1.jpg]

Make sure you didn't pinch the fuel line when you put the tank back down. You did remember to oil the filter right?

Rollin

Did you pull the O-ring seal from the top and bottom, of the airbox.

[image: View Post]RollinAgain, on 18 September 2010 - 06:29 PM, said:

Make sure you didn't pinch the fuel line when you put the tank back down. You did remember to oil the filter right?

Rollin

I thought all K&N filters come pre-oiled?

Just yesterday, there was an R6 in the shop because of loss of power and the fact that it was falling on its face when accellerating.  My brother listened to mechanic riding the bike and said that it sounded like someone over oiled the air cleaner.  The upside was that the air cleaner came out and then the bike ran absolutely perfectly.

I guess my point is...was the filter over -oiled?

Mine had "Factory Pre-Oiled" and "Ready to Install" printed right on the bag it was in.  No issues on a stock 2004.

VFR K&N filters are designed to pass just as much air as the stock
filter so the owner will not have to re map... whereas BMC filters are
designed to pass more air than stock so remapping is necessary to
cure a lean mixture...


K&N
[image: Posted Image]


BMC

[image: Posted Image]

[image: View Post]timmythecop, on 18 September 2010 - 11:12 PM, said:

Just yesterday, there was an R6 in the shop because of loss of power and the fact that it was falling on its face when accellerating.  My brother listened to mechanic riding the bike and said that it sounded like someone over oiled the air cleaner.  The upside was that the air cleaner came out and then the bike ran absolutely perfectly.

I guess my point is...was the filter over -oiled?

Just to throw it out there and I love and use K&N's..... But it can happen.... The K&N factory air filter could have been over oiled from them.... But  I agree with Timmy ..... I know from over oiling mine years ago(in the 70's), that I needed to lighten up to make it run correctly.

[image: View Post]Monk, on 18 September 2010 - 11:45 PM, said:

[image: View Post]timmythecop, on 18 September 2010 - 11:12 PM, said:

Just yesterday, there was an R6 in the shop because of loss of power and the fact that it was falling on its face when accellerating.  My brother listened to mechanic riding the bike and said that it sounded like someone over oiled the air cleaner.  The upside was that the air cleaner came out and then the bike ran absolutely perfectly.

I guess my point is...was the filter over -oiled?

Just to throw it out there and I love and use K&N's..... But it can happen.... The K&N factory air filter could have been over oiled from them.... But  I agree with Timmy ..... I know from over oiling mine years ago(in the 70's), that I needed to lighten up to make it run correctly.

Thanks for the replies.

I assumed the filter came pre-oiled from the factory. The instructions didn't say it needed oiling just said to remove the the air cleaner lid, remove the O rings then fit the filter re-fit the lid and your done.  Also to clean and re-oil the filter every 50,000 miles.

What does it look like if it's over oiled.  Can I remove the oil with gas and re oil it.

I bought an 04 VFR earlier this year (love it) and the guy i bought it from gave me a run down of absolutely everything on the bike. and he specifically told me, from expirience, that K&N filters have a tendency to pass through too much air...... just sayin   :biggrin:   but anyway congrats on the bike looks great, but...... umm...... when u paintin it black   :laughing6-hehe:

Welcome to VFRD from across the pond   :fing02:

[image: View Post]DaveB, on 19 September 2010 - 06:08 AM, said:

[image: View Post]Monk, on 18 September 2010 - 11:45 PM, said:

[image: View Post]timmythecop, on 18 September 2010 - 11:12 PM, said:

Just yesterday, there was an R6 in the shop because of loss of power and the fact that it was falling on its face when accellerating.  My brother listened to mechanic riding the bike and said that it sounded like someone over oiled the air cleaner.  The upside was that the air cleaner came out and then the bike ran absolutely perfectly.

I guess my point is...was the filter over -oiled?

Just to throw it out there and I love and use K&N's..... But it can happen.... The K&N factory air filter could have been over oiled from them.... But  I agree with Timmy ..... I know from over oiling mine years ago(in the 70's), that I needed to lighten up to make it run correctly.

Thanks for the replies.

I assumed the filter came pre-oiled from the factory. The instructions didn't say it needed oiling just said to remove the the air cleaner lid, remove the O rings then fit the filter re-fit the lid and your done.  Also to clean and re-oil the filter every 50,000 miles.

What does it look like if it's over oiled.  Can I remove the oil with gas and re oil it.

1st to clean the filter you want to run a soft stream of water though it "after" spraying with their filter cleaner( I use 409)..... Always have the flow of water going the opposit way that the air goes (when installed) That way you don't embed the dirt..... Oil with air filter oil..... Spray mist lightly, it will run/bleed to a fully covered surface..... When I 1st started oiling I'd try to spray all dry looking areas, which lead to over oiling....... Hard to say what the different look would be oiled or not... Wet looking I guess..... But you can tell while you're oiling.... If not sure, clean and oil....Don't blast the filter with water or air ... The object is not to mess up the cloth surface behind the wire, so the dirt won't have any bigger hole to sneak though, I use the kitchen sink fossit if it has one of those wire screen tips on the end to soften the stream.....

[image: View Post]DaveB, on 19 September 2010 - 06:08 AM, said:

[image: View Post]Monk, on 18 September 2010 - 11:45 PM, said:

[image: View Post]timmythecop, on 18 September 2010 - 11:12 PM, said:

Just yesterday, there was an R6 in the shop because of loss of power and the fact that it was falling on its face when accellerating.  My brother listened to mechanic riding the bike and said that it sounded like someone over oiled the air cleaner.  The upside was that the air cleaner came out and then the bike ran absolutely perfectly.

I guess my point is...was the filter over -oiled?

Just to throw it out there and I love and use K&N's..... But it can happen.... The K&N factory air filter could have been over oiled from them.... But  I agree with Timmy ..... I know from over oiling mine years ago(in the 70's), that I needed to lighten up to make it run correctly.

Thanks for the replies.

I assumed the filter came pre-oiled from the factory. The instructions didn't say it needed oiling just said to remove the the air cleaner lid, remove the O rings then fit the filter re-fit the lid and your done.  Also to clean and re-oil the filter every 50,000 miles.

What does it look like if it's over oiled.  Can I remove the oil with gas and re oil it.


Do not use gasoline to clean the oil from the filter.  The oil is vegetable based and does not require a strong solvent and parts of the filter are sensitive to petroleum solvent.  As Monk suggests, you can use a mild household cleaner like 409 or maybe Simple Green, or get yourself a K&N kit which will come with cleaner and a spray can of the oil.  Household detergents can be difficult to completely rinse from the media.  Use the K&N oil.  It's not all that expensive considering how infrequently you'll have to use it.  After letting the filter dry, spray on just enough oil to turn all the filter media red -but don't soak it until it's dripping and you'll be good to go.

Welcome to VFRD Dave and congrats on the smoken deal!   :fing02:
Over oiled can cause starvation issues, any error codes?
Just swap out the filter with the stock one if you still have it and test ride it.

BR

[quote name='BaileyRock' timestamp='1284914000' post='735374']
Welcome to VFRD Dave and congrats on the smoken deal!   :fing02:
Over oiled can cause starvation issues, any error codes?
Just swap out the filter with the stock one if you still have it and test ride it.

BR
[/quote

By error codes i assume you mean the FI warning light flashing - it doesn't come on except for a few seconds when starting.  

You're right I'll be refitting the old filter and O rings this afternoon to see if the performance comes back then I'll have to decide if I'm going to mess with cleaning the filter and re-oiling or returning it.

You can download the Honda Shop manual from our download area and it will show you how to check for any stored codes. :fing02:

[image: View Post]Cogswell, on 19 September 2010 - 10:45 AM, said:

Do not use gasoline to clean the oil from the filter.  The oil is vegetable based and does not require a strong solvent and parts of the filter are sensitive to petroleum solvent.  As Monk suggests, you can use a mild household cleaner like 409 or maybe Simple Green, or get yourself a K&N kit which will come with cleaner and a spray can of the oil.  Household detergents can be difficult to completely rinse from the media.  Use the K&N oil.  It's not all that expensive considering how infrequently you'll have to use it.  After letting the filter dry, spray on just enough oil to turn all the filter media red -but don't soak it until it's dripping and you'll be good to go.

I use gas to clean my customers K&N filters because no parts of a K&N
are sensitive to petroleum products... after degreasing with gas I use
warm water and a mild detergent soap... I rise with warm water and
then air dry for about a day before oiling...

[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 23 September 2010 - 01:09 AM, said:

[image: View Post]Cogswell, on 19 September 2010 - 10:45 AM, said:

Do not use gasoline to clean the oil from the filter.  The oil is vegetable based and does not require a strong solvent and parts of the filter are sensitive to petroleum solvent.  As Monk suggests, you can use a mild household cleaner like 409 or maybe Simple Green, or get yourself a K&N kit which will come with cleaner and a spray can of the oil.  Household detergents can be difficult to completely rinse from the media.  Use the K&N oil.  It's not all that expensive considering how infrequently you'll have to use it.  After letting the filter dry, spray on just enough oil to turn all the filter media red -but don't soak it until it's dripping and you'll be good to go.

I use gas to clean my customers K&N filters because no parts of a K&N
are sensitive to petroleum products... after degreasing with gas I use
warm water and a mild detergent soap... I rise with warm water and
then air dry for about a day before oiling...


I refitted the old filter and the performance was back to normal. However on retesting it I think the performance loss from the K&N was not as bad as I originally thought. I tried blowing through the filter by mouth and found the K&N offered less resistance than the original filter which is as it is supposed to be, so I don't think it is over oiled. I going to try loading Coyzes map into my power commander as it match the spec of my bike, staintuned exhaust and K&N filter this is much different to the map currently in there that is for staintuned and stock fllter

I have a 2004 and use a K & N filter. I wash them in dishsoap water, and spray on the K & N oil like it says. Never noticed any big change in performance from the original paper filters, I just don't have to buy new ones all the time now and I am pretty sure the K & Ns filter better, the oil helps catch the smallest particles.

[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 18 September 2010 - 11:29 PM, said:

VFR K&N filters are designed to pass just as much air as the stock
filter so the owner will not have to re map... whereas BMC filters are
designed to pass more air than stock so remapping is necessary to
cure a lean mixture...


K&N
[image: Posted Image]


BMC

[image: Posted Image]

Im glad I know that. An air filter is next on the list and I always planned on a K&N. Getting a PCV too so Ill be going the BMC for sure now. Assuming I can find them and the price isnt rediculous, tried Repco, no luck, Ill keep looking

[image: View Post]DaveB, on 23 September 2010 - 11:33 AM, said:

[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 23 September 2010 - 01:09 AM, said:

[image: View Post]Cogswell, on 19 September 2010 - 10:45 AM, said:

Do not use gasoline to clean the oil from the filter.  The oil is vegetable based and does not require a strong solvent and parts of the filter are sensitive to petroleum solvent.  As Monk suggests, you can use a mild household cleaner like 409 or maybe Simple Green, or get yourself a K&N kit which will come with cleaner and a spray can of the oil.  Household detergents can be difficult to completely rinse from the media.  Use the K&N oil.  It's not all that expensive considering how infrequently you'll have to use it.  After letting the filter dry, spray on just enough oil to turn all the filter media red -but don't soak it until it's dripping and you'll be good to go.

I use gas to clean my customers K&N filters because no parts of a K&N
are sensitive to petroleum products... after degreasing with gas I use
warm water and a mild detergent soap... I rise with warm water and
then air dry for about a day before oiling...


I refitted the old filter and the performance was back to normal. However on retesting it I think the performance loss from the K&N was not as bad as I originally thought. I tried blowing through the filter by mouth and found the K&N offered less resistance than the original filter which is as it is supposed to be, so I don't think it is over oiled. I going to try loading Coyzes map into my power commander as it match the spec of my bike, staintuned exhaust and K&N filter this is much different to the map currently in there that is for staintuned and stock fllter


So I put the K&N filter back. I also disconnected the flapper valve as recommended here and it test drove great. I got the improvement I found last weekend at low revs but this time I still had good pulling power from 60 mph in 6th gear I was not hitting full throttle when overtaking like last time.

I have no clue why it was better this time I can't believe it is all due to the flapper valve disconnect. I am just glad it work properly now.

I then downloaded the Cozye map into my power commander and that gave smoother acceleration and removed flat spots etc. but it was not necessary just because of the K&N filter.


Thanks everyone for all the advice and help given.