VTEC valve check - Anybody have Slide Pin Stoppers to loan?

I'm going to do a valve clearance check on a friends 04.
Anybody have a set of the slide pin stoppers that are needed for the job (at least 4) that I could borrow?

Thanks in advance,
Greg

Personally if it has less than 30-40k miles on it I wouldn't bother. :blush:

It's a PIA and requires you to R&R the cams at least 3 times if I'm not mistaken. If you do go forward I, I plan to check mine at the 200k make and you can use my pins after that! :491:

BR

[image: View Post]BaileyRock, on 27 December 2010 - 01:02 PM, said:

Personally if it has less than 30-40k miles on it I wouldn't bother. :blush:

It's a PIA and requires you to R&R the cams at least 3 times if I'm not mistaken. If you do go forward I, I plan to check mine at the 200k make and you can use my pins after that! :491:

BR


It's not a bother. It's too cold to ride and I have a decent garage setup to wrench on bikes while waiting for spring. So when a friend mentioned the upcoming need based on mileage (just shy of 16k) I volunteered my services. I'm aware of the pita factor, but just because it's hard/expensive to do, does not mean that it should not be done.
I am also aware of the prevalent attitude that it's not necessary to check the valves and I disagree. Honda makes a fine product, and when not abused, their bikes will out-last most riders, but I'm a firm believer in preventative maintenance and they specify service intervals for a reason. I would especially never skip the first check, because it establishes a baseline for future comparisons. I have 158,000 miles on my 96 VFR and I've checked the valves almost every winter (usually after only 12-13k of riding because I don't want to take time out of the riding season to do it). Before last year, I had to change a couple of shims on only two occasions. Last year, several that had been creeping up to or on the edge of the spec tolerance were now at or just over, so I ended up swapping out about half of them to bring them all back to the optimum values. No panic on my part, fearing that the engine was suddenly getting worse, because I could look back over the records and see that nothing had changed all that dramatically.

One other valve bias that I'd like to comment on. It's often stated that for the v-four engines, the valve clearances only get tighter. At best, that should only be regarded as a very loose and general rule of thumb. Almost half of the adjustments I've made on mine have been to correct loose gaps.

Regards,
Greg

VTEC What?

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Seriously though, it's a perfectly good excuse to spend some time in the man cave over the winter.
Enjoy.

All good Greg and thanks for sharing your findings! :fing02:

Sorry I don't have the pins! :blush:


BR

[image: View Post]BaileyRock, on 27 December 2010 - 02:40 PM, said:

All good Greg and thanks for sharing your findings! :fing02:

Sorry I don't have the pins! :blush:


BR



Thanks. I'm not trying to convert anyone, just passing along an alternate viewpoint.

[image: View Post]MapMaster, on 27 December 2010 - 01:54 PM, said:

I'm aware of the pita factor, but just because it's hard/expensive to do, does not mean that it should not be done.
I am also aware of the prevalent attitude that it's not necessary to check the valves and I disagree. Honda makes a fine product, and when not abused, their bikes will out-last most riders, but I'm a firm believer in preventative maintenance and they specify service intervals for a reason.


I agree. It may be time consuming and expensive if you take your bike to a wrench, but if it weren't something that had to checked periodically, Honda wouldn't recommend it. Yes, preventative maintenance is very important.

[image: View Post]MapMaster, on 27 December 2010 - 01:54 PM, said:

I'm aware of the pita factor, but just because it's hard/expensive to do, does not mean that it should not be done.


I'm another of the few that agree with you... PM me with your name, address, etc., and I'll lend you a set of slide pin stoppers. I'll just need them back in the not too distant future to do the same valve check on my bike (unfortunately, I don't have a heated garage and it's damn cold right now!).

[image: View Post]hlf, on 28 December 2010 - 10:39 AM, said:

I'm another of the few that agree with you... PM me with your name, address, etc., and I'll lend you a set of slide pin stoppers. I'll just need them back in the not too distant future to do the same valve check on my bike (unfortunately, I don't have a heated garage and it's damn cold right now!).


pm sent
Huge Thanks!

Got the stoppers from hlf and finished the initial check.
Two non-VTEC exhaust valves are out of spec on the tight side, one just, the other by .0025"

Here's the lowdown for you McGyver types:
The slide pin stoppers are are metal discs with a 5.94mm radius x 2.5mm thick
(.234in x.099in is what I mic'd them at)
A metal or plastic substitute could be used, but be careful:
Bigger won't fit, much smaller (especially in the thickness) and there would be the danger that when you remove the tappet after checking the clearance, the slide pin would stay in the bore and your makeshift the stopper would fall out into the engine when you pull pull the slide pin out. So make sure the slide pin assembly will stay in the tappet bucket when inverted before placing above the valve.

The maintenance manual lists two part numbers for the slide pin stoppers:
07XMZ-MCE100
07XMZ-MCEA100
Service Honda lists 0XMZ-MCE100 for $19.20 - no quantity indicated
They list 0XMZ-MCEA100 for the same price, and also indicate that it's a package of 8.
(I only had the first number as a reference before I had the manual and that's when I put out the call to borrow some.)

(edited to correct a typo in the part numbers)

[image: View Post]MapMaster, on 03 January 2011 - 10:33 AM, said:

finished the initial check.
Two non-VTEC exhaust valves are out of spec on the tight side, one just, the other by .0025"



Cool, are you saying that No Vtec valves were out of spec or did you just check the non-vtec valves so far? :blush:


BR

[image: View Post]BaileyRock, on 03 January 2011 - 01:55 PM, said:

[image: View Post]MapMaster, on 03 January 2011 - 10:33 AM, said:

finished the initial check.
Two non-VTEC exhaust valves are out of spec on the tight side, one just, the other by .0025"



Cool, are you saying that No Vtec valves were out of spec or did you just check the non-vtec valves so far? :blush:


BR


The VTEC valves were all in spec, some just. They do have a larger tolerance range.
Which was nice from the standpoint that the replacement lifters are much more expensive than shims
$5.50 for shims vs $30 for the lifters at servicehonda.

btw, I had a typo in the slide pin stopper part numbers in my earlier post - corrected now.

[image: View Post]MapMaster, on 03 January 2011 - 06:31 PM, said:

The VTEC valves were all in spec, some just. They do have a larger tolerance range.
Which was nice from the standpoint that the replacement lifters are much more expensive than shims
$5.50 for shims vs $30 for the lifters at servicehonda.

btw, I had a typo in the slide pin stopper part numbers in my earlier post - corrected now.


So, how would your rank the 6th gen valve inspection on the pita scale?

[image: View Post]swimmer, on 03 January 2011 - 09:28 PM, said:

So, how would your rank the 6th gen valve inspection on the pita scale?


From 1 to 10 - 11 and I'd make it a logarithmic scale
I'm used to working on a 4th gen, so the commonly remarked issue of removing a bunch of bodywork is a non-factor here. The owner brought it over with the side panels already removed and the bike nicely cleaned, so I had a big lead to begin with as well.

My major complaints:

No shut-off or self-sealing disconnect in the fuel line so that the tank could be more easily removed and safely stored.
Anyone trying to do it with the tank still connected as the manual suggests is just asking for scratches, head bangs, obstructed light and restricted access to the work area. But if you do remove the tank, drain it. Don't risk fumes and fuel leaking from the vent or return line openings if the tank is angled slightly while resting it upside down.

Given a normal shim-under-bucket and chain driven cam design, adjusting any valves requires a lot more work than just checking the clearances.
But the true evilness of the VTEC to me is that just to check the valves, you have to jump through all the hoops of pulling and reinstalling all four cams TWICE. With the earlier engines, once the cam covers are removed, checking clearances is a simple matter of hand cranking the engine to the correct position and wielding your feeler gauges.
Access for the feeler gauges is more difficult on this engine as well. It's not the easiest on mine either, but harder here both due to layout and the fact that the clearances are greater which requires thicker/stiffer feeler gauges that are more difficult to flex into the correct position.

Cost - if a VTEC valve is out of spec, replacement lifters are pretty dear compared to the shims.

I like novel designs and I respect that the VFR has always been something of a showcase for new tech: Linked brakes, ABS, single sided swingarm (sweet), gear driven cams were all positive gains in my book, even if not regarded as such by all (linked brakes) or not much more than a style element (sss). What disappoints me most is that the VTEC engine didn't enhance the functionality of the bike at all. Gas mileage improvement was initially touted - not there, performance gains - not there, better emissions - maybe, but every other m/c in the their lineup has managed to be compliant without the added complexity and expense of this engine.

So I'm glad I've got the chance to work on one, once! But it's unlikely that I will never own one of these.

[image: View Post]MapMaster, on 04 January 2011 - 12:01 AM, said:

[image: View Post]swimmer, on 03 January 2011 - 09:28 PM, said:

So, how would your rank the 6th gen valve inspection on the pita scale?


From 1 to 10 - 11 and I'd make it a logarithmic scale
I'm used to working on a 4th gen, so the commonly remarked issue of removing a bunch of bodywork is a non-factor here. The owner brought it over with the side panels already removed and the bike nicely cleaned, so I had a big lead to begin with as well.

My major complaints:

No shut-off or self-sealing disconnect in the fuel line so that the tank could be more easily removed and safely stored.
Anyone trying to do it with the tank still connected as the manual suggests is just asking for scratches, head bangs, obstructed light and restricted access to the work area. But if you do remove the tank, drain it. Don't risk fumes and fuel leaking from the vent or return line openings if the tank is angled slightly while resting it upside down.

Given a normal shim-under-bucket and chain driven cam design, adjusting any valves requires a lot more work than just checking the clearances.
But the true evilness of the VTEC to me is that just to check the valves, you have to jump through all the hoops of pulling and reinstalling all four cams TWICE. With the earlier engines, once the cam covers are removed, checking clearances is a simple matter of hand cranking the engine to the correct position and wielding your feeler gauges.
Access for the feeler gauges is more difficult on this engine as well. It's not the easiest on mine either, but harder here both due to layout and the fact that the clearances are greater which requires thicker/stiffer feeler gauges that are more difficult to flex into the correct position.

Cost - if a VTEC valve is out of spec, replacement lifters are pretty dear compared to the shims.

I like novel designs and I respect that the VFR has always been something of a showcase for new tech: Linked brakes, ABS, single sided swingarm (sweet), gear driven cams were all positive gains in my book, even if not regarded as such by all (linked brakes) or not much more than a style element (sss). What disappoints me most is that the VTEC engine didn't enhance the functionality of the bike at all. Gas mileage improvement was initially touted - not there, performance gains - not there, better emissions - maybe, but every other m/c in the their lineup has managed to be compliant without the added complexity and expense of this engine.

So I'm glad I've got the chance to work on one, once! But it's unlikely that I will never own one of these.


So, I guess you don't want to do mine then?

The dealer is quoting my between $300 and $525 for labor for this. The price climb a lot if the vtec were out of spec but considering how easy I ride it I doubt they would be. It's at about 22k miles. I'm on the fence about keeping my VFR.

[image: View Post]MapMaster, on 04 January 2011 - 12:01 AM, said:

[image: View Post]swimmer, on 03 January 2011 - 09:28 PM, said:

So, how would your rank the 6th gen valve inspection on the pita scale?


From 1 to 10 - 11 and I'd make it a logarithmic scale
I'm used to working on a 4th gen, so the commonly remarked issue of removing a bunch of bodywork is a non-factor here. The owner brought it over with the side panels already removed and the bike nicely cleaned, so I had a big lead to begin with as well.

My major complaints:

No shut-off or self-sealing disconnect in the fuel line so that the tank could be more easily removed and safely stored.
Anyone trying to do it with the tank still connected as the manual suggests is just asking for scratches, head bangs, obstructed light and restricted access to the work area. But if you do remove the tank, drain it. Don't risk fumes and fuel leaking from the vent or return line openings if the tank is angled slightly while resting it upside down.

Given a normal shim-under-bucket and chain driven cam design, adjusting any valves requires a lot more work than just checking the clearances.
But the true evilness of the VTEC to me is that just to check the valves, you have to jump through all the hoops of pulling and reinstalling all four cams TWICE. With the earlier engines, once the cam covers are removed, checking clearances is a simple matter of hand cranking the engine to the correct position and wielding your feeler gauges.
Access for the feeler gauges is more difficult on this engine as well. It's not the easiest on mine either, but harder here both due to layout and the fact that the clearances are greater which requires thicker/stiffer feeler gauges that are more difficult to flex into the correct position.

Cost - if a VTEC valve is out of spec, replacement lifters are pretty dear compared to the shims.

I like novel designs and I respect that the VFR has always been something of a showcase for new tech: Linked brakes, ABS, single sided swingarm (sweet), gear driven cams were all positive gains in my book, even if not regarded as such by all (linked brakes) or not much more than a style element (sss). What disappoints me most is that the VTEC engine didn't enhance the functionality of the bike at all. Gas mileage improvement was initially touted - not there, performance gains - not there, better emissions - maybe, but every other m/c in the their lineup has managed to be compliant without the added complexity and expense of this engine.

So I'm glad I've got the chance to work on one, once! But it's unlikely that I will never own one of these.


This is great info. I'm getting ready to check the valves on my '02 with 16k miles. If I don't check the VTEC valves, can I measure clearance on the others without removing the cams? If they were in spec it would provide some piece of mind while avoiding the extra tools and effort. This is my first post, so please excuse if my format is poor.

[image: View Post]budd44, on 04 January 2011 - 09:58 PM, said:

This is great info. I'm getting ready to check the valves on my '02 with 16k miles. If I don't check the VTEC valves, can I measure clearance on the others without removing the cams? If they were in spec it would provide some piece of mind while avoiding the extra tools and effort. This is my first post, so please excuse if my format is poor.


Welcome to VFRD Budd! :fing02:

I would not be in any panic to check the valves exactly at or by 16k miles, but if it's winter none-riding weather for you and you want to play go for it.
IMO the Vtec valves would be More likely to be out of spec than the standard valves as proven by dozens of members sharing their numbers. I was very surprised that teh thread starters results were exactly opposite of the norm, not that I doubt his findings at all.
My point is that I wouldn't use checking only the non-vtec valves as a "everythings OK" sample of valve condition.

PS (don't use me as an example) I've gone over 80,000 miles w/o a single valve check on my 02 VFR. :blush:

BR

[image: View Post]swimmer, on 04 January 2011 - 02:12 PM, said:

So, I guess you don't want to do mine then?

The dealer is quoting my between $300 and $525 for labor for this. The price climb a lot if the vtec were out of spec but considering how easy I ride it I doubt they would be. It's at about 22k miles. I'm on the fence about keeping my VFR.


Airfare to Tuscon could be had for a bit less than 300 I would imagine..... January... got another bike I could go riding on? ;)
Seriously, I can better understand the expense of this service, I don't understand why your dealer's price would climb a lot other than the cost of replacement lifters. Then again, if he's figuring a worst case scenario of all 8 VTEC lifters needed replaced at $40/each, that would be a big hit.

[image: View Post]BaileyRock, on 05 January 2011 - 04:04 PM, said:

[image: View Post]budd44, on 04 January 2011 - 09:58 PM, said:

This is great info. I'm getting ready to check the valves on my '02 with 16k miles. If I don't check the VTEC valves, can I measure clearance on the others without removing the cams? If they were in spec it would provide some piece of mind while avoiding the extra tools and effort. This is my first post, so please excuse if my format is poor.


Welcome to VFRD Budd! :fing02:

I would not be in any panic to check the valves exactly at or by 16k miles, but if it's winter none-riding weather for you and you want to play go for it.
IMO the Vtec valves would be More likely to be out of spec than the standard valves as proven by dozens of members sharing their numbers. I was very surprised that teh thread starters results were exactly opposite of the norm, not that I doubt his findings at all.
My point is that I wouldn't use checking only the non-vtec valves as a "everythings OK" sample of valve condition.

PS (don't use me as an example) I've gone over 80,000 miles w/o a single valve check on my 02 VFR. :blush:

BR


Budd,
+1 on the welcome and on the advice.
Given all the effort to get to the camshafts, it would be pointless not to check the VTEC valves while you're there (even though it does require even more work, it's not especially more difficult to check the VTEC valves, just time consuming).


BR
You're way overdue! :biggrin: