The wera board recently canned all the track day talk because of constant bickering between TD groups. So it got me thinking, why not start racing. I hear it costs the same as track days, but I am not convinced. It seems as if you pay for a practice day (same as a track day) and then race day is 2 races for the same as a full track day. Plus, I probably couldn't make more than 2 or 3 races a year.
so my question is, to all you wera and ccs and "other" org racers or use to racers:
Did you find TDs and racing to cost the same per weekend?
Would you recommend racing and if so, why/why not?
I'm not a racer, but was pretty heavy in to track days before I got laid off. I pretty much came to the same conclusions as you Dale. I could never make the jump to racing as it takes the costs to a whole new level, especially when it comes to tires. I'm guessing the reason (at least this is what made me want to race) is the competition. You can do a track day and play grab ass out there with your buddies and brag about who has the fastest lap time, but there's never a checkered flag...
I think the WERA Track Day forum was axed due to it's entire content being thinly veiled promotion by the various track day organizations. People were being jerks.
Racing is more expensive than track days, but not necessarily prohibitively so. You might want to check out this thread discussing track/race costs: http://forums.13x.co...ad.php?t=276803
More importantly, though, is being clear about your motivations. Track days are a good place to have fun, riding fast in a safe environment. Racing is competition. You will push yourself harder racing, you will take more chances, and you are more likely to crash. Are the rewards worth the risks to you?
Finally, thinking of racing only 2 or 3 times a year seems pretty pointless. You will need to attend a race school to get a racing license for most (all?) race orgs, so you are down to 1 or 2 races. Your first race weekend will likely be overwhelming with lots of new things going on (registration, tech, gridding, starts, close passes, etc.). And you will likely be blown away by the pace. Unless you are one of the fastest riders in the advanced group of your track day org, you are not going to be competitive racing. Your season will end before you are even comfortable at a race.
If the number of times you plan on racing a year is due to lack of interest in doing more days, I'd stick to track days. If money is the limitation, then consider doing endurance racing with a group of friends you can split costs with.
[image: View Post]hlf, on 15 January 2011 - 09:51 AM, said:
I think the WERA Track Day forum was axed due to it's entire content being thinly veiled promotion by the various track day organizations. People were being jerks.
Racing is more expensive than track days, but not necessarily prohibitively so. You might want to check out this thread discussing track/race costs: http://forums.13x.co...ad.php?t=276803
More importantly, though, is being clear about your motivations. Track days are a good place to have fun, riding fast in a safe environment. Racing is competition. You will push yourself harder racing, you will take more chances, and you are more likely to crash. Are the rewards worth the risks to you?
Finally, thinking of racing only 2 or 3 times a year seems pretty pointless. You will need to attend a race school to get a racing license for most (all?) race orgs, so you are down to 1 or 2 races. Your first race weekend will likely be overwhelming with lots of new things going on (registration, tech, gridding, starts, close passes, etc.). And you will likely be blown away by the pace. Unless you are one of the fastest riders in the advanced group of your track day org, you are not going to be competitive racing. Your season will end before you are even comfortable at a race.
If the number of times you plan on racing a year is due to lack of interest in doing more days, I'd stick to track days. If money is the limitation, then consider doing endurance racing with a group of friends you can split costs with.
Good luck!
i keep hearing endurance series. the only problem i have, is being 6'2 and 240, i seem a tad large for the endurance races that friends of mine run as it is on ninja 250's.
i simply want to get as much track time and exposure for the $ as i can. racing just seems like it would elevate my riding. however, i have plenty of room to grow on track days too. :fing02:
I don't think I would care much if race sessions were a bit cheaper than track days unless I wanted to race.
I used to do alpine racing back in high school. Well, I used to do a lot of the practice days, and very few, if any, official races. It took me a few years to get to the point where I was comfortable and confident in running with the rest of the group (who were raised to race), my equipment was too outdated and worn to push as hard as I needed to be competitive in the racing season. Just wasn't as fun as the practice sessions, and I would have needed to drop around $2k on new equipment.
Track days are for focusing on your riding and enjoying yourself. Race days are for working.
[image: View Post]turtlecreek, on 15 January 2011 - 04:18 PM, said:
i keep hearing endurance series. the only problem i have, is being 6'2 and 240, i seem a tad large for the endurance races that friends of mine run as it is on ninja 250's.
i simply want to get as much track time and exposure for the $ as i can. racing just seems like it would elevate my riding. however, i have plenty of room to grow on track days too. :fing02:
I struggle with racing or just doing track days too Dale. I keep going back to the fact that I like doing them because they are fun. Racing would put undo stress and pressure on me which I don't think I want. Also calculate how much a race weekend would cost compared to a track day weekend and I think you end up with a LOT more track time on track days. Not to mention the tire cost for racing. Track days you can get away with running them for a day or two, but when racing, you will want a new set on for the race.
Racing would make a person the best rider they can be. Just the pushing to the limit in a race makes you more comfortable and better at a faster pace. The downfall is finding the limit..........and you will find the limit.
So I guess it is all about what you want to gain from it. Do you want to push your abilities to the limit and become the best rider you can along with spending lots of money or do you want to have fun hanging with buddies and having low stress while still improve your riding.
[image: View Post]wera803, on 15 January 2011 - 05:09 PM, said:
[image: View Post]turtlecreek, on 15 January 2011 - 04:18 PM, said:
i keep hearing endurance series. the only problem i have, is being 6'2 and 240, i seem a tad large for the endurance races that friends of mine run as it is on ninja 250's.
i simply want to get as much track time and exposure for the $ as i can. racing just seems like it would elevate my riding. however, i have plenty of room to grow on track days too. :fing02:
I struggle with racing or just doing track days too Dale. I keep going back to the fact that I like doing them because they are fun. Racing would put undo stress and pressure on me which I don't think I want. Also calculate how much a race weekend would cost compared to a track day weekend and I think you end up with a LOT more track time on track days. Not to mention the tire cost for racing. Track days you can get away with running them for a day or two, but when racing, you will want a new set on for the race.
Racing would make a person the best rider they can be. Just the pushing to the limit in a race makes you more comfortable and better at a faster pace. The downfall is finding the limit..........and you will find the limit.
So I guess it is all about what you want to gain from it. Do you want to push your abilities to the limit and become the best rider you can along with spending lots of money or do you want to have fun hanging with buddies and having low stress while still improve your riding.
no doubt about it......"or do you want to have fun hanging with buddies and having low stress while still improve your riding. "
i simply want to get as much track time and exposure for the $ as i can. racing just seems like it would elevate my riding. however, i have plenty of room to grow on track days too. :fing02:
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Contact your local track day group and ask about working a day or two in exchange for a discount on a track day, some do it some do not. The group I work with does on offer discounts in exchange for working but they do a "frequent flyer" discount, where if you sign up for "X" number of days they give you a discount.
You would be surprised what you can learn just working around track day junkies.
And unless your serious about racing, stick to track days you will often find you get more track time and it is a lot less expensive.
With racing you get two 10-20 min practice session and one 8-10 lap race per Entry Fee, that's it. A typical track day gets you 5-7 15-20 min sessions.
I've always thought of racing as I'm consistently in the top 10% of the fastest riders in the A group and can run some competitive times, but I'm still unlikely to Place! I don't think I would have as much fun if I wasn't winning or close to it either. :blush:
Cost and the fear of getting hurt has kept me away, but I already hurt myself pretty good at my last track day and am still Paying for that ride today!
Dale, you just started running in the A group and there are Huge gains to make just staying in that group w/o ever a need to race. Stick with that for a year or so then think about it!
I do track days on my CBR1000RR track bike. I'm 36 and now I really think I won't upgrade to racing, and there's a couple of good reasons for that:
I'm competitive, so if I race I'll push too hard and probably crash
I can't affort the time off work through serious injury gained on a race day
I can't affort the required equipment or tyres to keep up a racing career
Track days are already making me a better rider and they are a lot of fun
Basically, the risks of crashing are higher in a race than a track day (as far as I'm concerned). If you really want it to be a "race" just look at it like rally driving, where it's against the clock. The only difference is you're only racing your previous best time, like the "ghost cars" you see on Playstation driving games. :)
When I lived in So Fla Jennings was 5+ hours away, but Homestead was under 90 min and Moroso was 45. Only problem was, at the time, track days there were few and far between. So me and a buddy started going CCS Florida racing. They had a race nearly monthly, with less than half being at Jennings. I found it to be exactly what you are talking about. Practice day Saturday was basically a track day, and by doing the Sunday morning practice and a race or two the weekend costs were about the same as a two day track day weekend.
The faster you go, the more expensive it becomes no matter if you race or do track days. I was doing weekends on Power street tires on an F3, and I was faster then. But I certainly didn't have the budget for new race tires each day.
Another thing to consider is grid size. If you plan to do a lot of racing at Tally, be ready for a lot of riders on track! I've been in some pretty large grids, but not personally at Tally.
I'm not sure I actually have a recommendation here, but I do believe your theory is possible. But again, remember that it costs more to go fast! You're probably more likely to want to go faster in a race. Also don't forget your 750 is going to be up against brand new liter bikes.
Oh and if you read Roadracing World magazine, they had a feature in the Feb issue on Sean Dwyer from So Fla. If you'll notice it says he got going in '06 in CCS FL. As an amateur in the 600 class he (and a couple others) was lapping at least half the field. Me included. It wasn't until my last race at Jennings where I was doing my all time fastest laps that I didn't get lapped. But the flag man was holding the checkers getting ready to throw it for Dwyer as he showed me the white!
i appreciate all the comments. i think i already new the answer, but just wanted to hear it from folks with experience. i dont feel the "need" to race and i definitely dont have the need to spend the extra $$s... :laughing6-hehe:
[image: View Post]turtlecreek, on 17 January 2011 - 08:57 AM, said:
i appreciate all the comments. i think i already new the answer, but just wanted to hear it from folks with experience. i dont feel the "need" to race and i definitely dont have the need to spend the extra $$s... :laughing6-hehe:
If you decide to do the endurance thing, maybe the team should be you, me, and wera910. Although I doubt we will be the fastest team, at least the bike will be set up close enough for all of us to ride. :blush: :beer:
[image: View Post]wera803, on 17 January 2011 - 10:11 AM, said:
If you decide to do the endurance thing, maybe the team should be you, me, and wera910. Although I doubt we will be the fastest team, at least the bike will be set up close enough for all of us to ride. :blush: :beer:
Hey, I'm getting closer to you guys every day, saw 200 the other day!!! :blush:
I THINK THE 250 Ninja endurance racing would be a blast though!
[image: View Post]BaileyRock, on 17 January 2011 - 11:05 AM, said:
[image: View Post]wera803, on 17 January 2011 - 10:11 AM, said:
If you decide to do the endurance thing, maybe the team should be you, me, and wera910. Although I doubt we will be the fastest team, at least the bike will be set up close enough for all of us to ride. :blush: :beer:
Hey, I'm getting closer to you guys every day, saw 200 the other day!!! :blush:
I THINK THE 250 Ninja endurance racing would be a blast though!
I probably haven't seen 200 since 9th grade. :laughing6-hehe: When you start out life at 11 lbs 2 ounces, it is a loosing battle from the get-go. :pissed:
I race in the Motorcycle Roadracing Association (MRA) out here in Colorado, although I had to take last year off to rehab a foot injury. I too am of larger stature (6'1" 225). Even though I am not competitive enough for podium spots at this point, I absolutely love racing. Like I tell people, going from the street to a track day, it's a whole 'nother level. And the jump from track days to racing is another level. The first time you launch into turn one with 20 or so guys around you jockeying for position, you'll understand. It's quite a rush. If you want to get better, racing is the way to go. You'll learn a lot mixing it up with guys who are a little faster than you,studying what they do. In the MRA, the endurance races are a great way to get competitive track time at a good price. Heavyweight Endurance (I race a GSX-R 750) is my favorite race by far because it allows me the time to get into a groove and work on my consistency, which then lets me make improvements so I can gauge the results.
Out here we created a new class last year called "Superstreet" as a way to let street riders experience racing without all of the expense of racing. Basically you can ride your street bike with a few small safety mods (or a full on race bike if you like) in a real race to see if you like it. It has been wildly successful. Here are some more details:
[image: View Post]wera803, on 17 January 2011 - 10:11 AM, said:
[image: View Post]turtlecreek, on 17 January 2011 - 08:57 AM, said:
i appreciate all the comments. i think i already new the answer, but just wanted to hear it from folks with experience. i dont feel the "need" to race and i definitely dont have the need to spend the extra $$s... :laughing6-hehe:
If you decide to do the endurance thing, maybe the team should be you, me, and wera910. Although I doubt we will be the fastest team, at least the bike will be set up close enough for all of us to ride. :blush: :beer:
If you need a 4th to split the costs of the bike, prep, tires, etc... :blush:
[image: View Post]cornercarver, on 17 January 2011 - 01:07 PM, said:
[image: View Post]wera803, on 17 January 2011 - 10:11 AM, said:
[image: View Post]turtlecreek, on 17 January 2011 - 08:57 AM, said:
i appreciate all the comments. i think i already new the answer, but just wanted to hear it from folks with experience. i dont feel the "need" to race and i definitely dont have the need to spend the extra $$s... :laughing6-hehe:
If you decide to do the endurance thing, maybe the team should be you, me, and wera910. Although I doubt we will be the fastest team, at least the bike will be set up close enough for all of us to ride. :blush: :beer:
If you need a 4th to split the costs of the bike, prep, tires, etc... :blush:
HMMMM, joker was looking for folks to do the 250 endurance last year....perhaps between as all, we could field a team. joker, are you still planning on doing this?
From someone who retired from racing a long time ago (back when it was the ERA which became the WERA).
You can't go through money faster than if you were to hold your wallet open and hang it out the car window while doing 70 mph. It costs, no two ways around it. It's not just the bike and tires every race, it's lodging, meals, traveling, etc, etc, etc.
I've got a lot of tin and wood trophies to show for it, but damn they each cost a fortune.
[image: View Post]Monk, on 17 January 2011 - 03:07 PM, said:
Have you run on the new track out east past the old 2nd Creek track? If so, how do you like it?
Yes, High Plains Raceway. It's an awesome track. Whereas Pueblo is primarily a point-and-shoot track, HPR is much more technical, with corners tied together in a very challenging way. It has everything from a triple digit sweeper (3b) to a tight hairpin (8), lots of elevation changes and a downhill corkscrew. The back straight is also reasonably long (with fast corners on each end, 3b and 4) so you get to experience pretty much everything.
Track days are fun, racing is a f**king blast. No comparison in my book. You don't have to race a 600/750/1000 in the A/B/C classes. There are lots of other classes that are cheaper & just as much fun. Its still gonna cost more to race than to do track days. To me you get what you pay for tho. Endurance is the way to go if you wanna maximize track time. A 10 lap sprint race is roughly equal to 4 sessions at a track day in terms of the buzz I feel afterward. Lets be honest its all about the adrenaline buzz you get from racing that makes it worth the money. You cant buy a drug that comes close to it and trust me I've tried. Well that and the people I've met racing are just awesome.
Most of the racing I have done has been sprint races (10 laps) in the D, E, Lightweight & vintage classes. As for endurance racing I've only done the ninja 250 endurance and it was the best weekend of racing I've had per dollar spent by far. The organization that put it on lost money on the deal because of not enough bikes on the grid. I don't know where the 250 endurance class going if anywhere at this point. Keep in mind that the pace for endurance racing is a bit off from sprint racing. Ive been thinking about doing endurance on the SV (Lightweight class) next year. I cant seem to get enough sprint races in to get leaps in improvement, endurance could do that for me, maybe.
You already have most everything you need to race w/ the exception of a transponder that you can rent. You should at least come out to a race and check it out first hand. As a matter of fact Wera's first race this year is at Tally on Feb 5-6. There is a 99$ trackday on the 4th on the Friday before hand by Ed Bargy that also does a race school. Wera does a race school on Saturday for a lot less $$ but its real basic instruction. You could do the trackday and check out the race atmosphere on the weekend to see if there is something in it for you. Honestly you will never know for sure if its for you unless you try it. Come on man all the kool kids are doin it and you know you want to.
mechdziner is bang on, track days are fun racing is whole new level of fun!
started out just doing track days moved to novice club racing and now armature which allows me to race in alot more classes. there's nothing like the rush when your lined up and that flag drops fighting and bumping shoulders for position in turn 1. trackdays for most part are learning lines being smooth racing against yourself and getting the best time you can. racing is much more than that
race fees are somewhat the same as a track days 130-170 includes 3races per day 7tor 12 laps each depending on the class. yearly race licence is 150$ covers me for 4or 5 race organizations, if your inclined to travel. if you develop the skill and you wana be one of the top racers in your club you will end up spending some $$$ to get there contingency money doesn't really help cover your expenses unless your really good. one of my biggest expenses is tires, faster you get the more tires you go through. there's no need at an amateur level to have new tires for every race most guys use takeoffs when available which helps to keep the cost down. First year is the most expensive with bike transponder and licence most clubs require you to take a race course to get your licence which can run around $300 .
even though i push myself much harder on a race day then a track day i always feel safer on a race day. track days you just never know who's on that bike next to you its a whole different mentality on a race day . racing doesn't have to cost you huge as long as your content to race in certain classes like twins lightweights even 600 super sport. at the end of the day its all for fun whether its a track day or raceday. you should check out your local race organization even if you just want to do track days you will find racers are great group of people!
Racing is a blast no doubt, I raced Moto-X, Super-Cross and Enduro's for seven years and retired as an Expert along with a few runs up Pikes Peak so I'm familiar with the the elbow to elbow run to the first turn and every turn after that.
I almost switched to Motorcycle Road Racing when I turned 30, but went to SCCA Road Racing instead for another seven years. Now at 55 (next month) I just have a hard time seeing a competitive run at m/c road racing, but I'd still consider it, I just hate loosing! :491:
I had the bike I always wanted to start racing(07 GSXR750), but after getting Laid-Off I had to sell it and then breaking both my legs at a track day ended the plan to start racing WERA for me for now anyway. :cool:
[image: View Post]BaileyRock, on 17 January 2011 - 07:17 PM, said:
Racing is a blast no doubt, I raced Moto-X, Super-Cross and Enduro's for seven years and retired as an Expert along with a few runs up Pikes Peak so I'm familiar with the the elbow to elbow run to the first turn and every turn after that.
I almost switched to Motorcycle Road Racing when I turned 30, but went to SCCA Road Racing instead for another seven years. Now at 55 (next month) I just have a hard time seeing a competitive run at m/c road racing, but I'd still consider it, I just hate loosing! :491:
I had the bike I always wanted to start racing(07 GSXR750), but after getting Laid-Off I had to sell it and then breaking both my legs at a track day ended the plan to start racing WERA for me for now anyway. :cool:
BR
Just curious Bailyrock, what class and car did you run with SCCA?
[image: View Post]kostritzer, on 17 January 2011 - 07:54 PM, said:
[image: View Post]BaileyRock, on 17 January 2011 - 07:17 PM, said:
Racing is a blast no doubt, but went to SCCA Road Racing instead
BR
Just curious Bailyrock, what class and car did you run with SCCA?
Started in Club Ford(older Formula Fords) in 87, Then went National Formula 2000 (FC) for the next 3 years Then dropped out for a few years only to return in 95 with an ITA Mazda RX3. It was a blast!
Too many zero's behind a year of car racing these days and then too! :blink:
Racing (IMO) with any type vehicle is always more fun than just "practicing"..."but"...it requires runnin' at Your maximum each and every lap, and dancin' on the edge. You also find Yourself faced with Traffic and Passing Issues that You sometimes have to take the most dangerous option because the Guy behind You is takin' that same option also. Yes, Racing, at least in my experiences, always costs more because You eventually find that "spot" where better equipment, or the lack of is becomin' a decidin' factor......now, all of this bein' said, Nothin' feels as good as a Green Flag flyin' with the roar of engines pourin' into the first turn..............unless later, Your picture is bein' taken holdin' a Checkered Flag in one hand, a Trophy in the Other....."Try It" Dale, You may like it..... :fing02:
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