I noticed a BUNCH of First Time Attendee's signing up for INT. ride groups, PLEASE if you didn't read this section in the Original Thread then Please read this again and if you question in the Slightest that you Maybe Shouldn't be in the Int. group PLEASE contact me and I will move you to Relaxed (Slower Int). It's NOT an Ego thing at all, it's about the enjoyment and SAFETY of everyone attending this event, so please put the Ego aside and make a proper decision here.
Our Intermediate Group is our FAST & Experienced Twisty Riders!
Intermediate:(Int/fast) Experienced TWISTY/Mtn riders and or track day experience, confident with non-stop twisties and the endurance to handle them on longer routes(usually 300+ miles) Ride PACE avg. of 10-20 mph over. We’re not talking about in a straight line here!
Note on group selection:
This area is unmatched in twisties both in volume, duration and technical level compared to 90% of the rest of the country and if you don't ride in similar terrain in that other 10% of the country YOU WILL NOT BE READY FOR WHAT YOU'LL ENCOUNTER HERE !
These twisties are endless and provide little chance to rest and fatigue sets in very quickly. Fatigue multiplies the chance of crashing by 10 fold especially in this area where the turn you just screwed up is only half as hard as the one you’re now entering from the wrong side of the road. Even the slightest mistake is compounded by the extremely technical nature of these roads that provide little to No room for error!
Please do not take group selection lightly; your life may depend on it! I cannot express that fact enough!
We place a lot of importance and responsibility in the roll of our Lead/Sweep Teams and our desire for them to focus on GROUP safety as it's a very important aspect of this events success. But No matter how dedicated out Teams are, we cannot control the choices each attendee makes and the effect these have on the entire Event.
Each rider coming to this event also plays a huge roll in its success by choosing a proper and safe ride group for them. If you are an Intermediate rider in most of the country you will be a Relaxed level rider in this part of the country, please don't let ego pick your ride group! This is the single biggest and most important decision you will make when attending the T-Mac, it will play the biggest role in the fun and safety of everyone involved.
Please do your part and focus on the Fun factor along with Not losing sight of the fact that this is a Memorial Ride for the first VFRD member to lose his life!Thanks
Would the width or lack of chicken strips be any help in determining what group one should pick? I find that when riding with strangers for the first time that I can get with the right group by finding strips comparable to mine (about 1/2" on PP's). Not foolproof, but helpful. I don't get in line in front of people with no chicken strips and I don't get behind the ones with 1" or better strips.
For what its worth - my first trip to the best riding roads I'd ever been on was to Nashville - and that was 6 or 7 years ago.
I came home after riding in that area with TBZEP and HURRICANE249 and felt like a rockstar riding around up here on our flat, straight, boring roads.
My next trip to the South was TMAC the next spring, and based on my last trip to Nashville area, I thought I should be able to ride with the locals like Baileyrock, and Wera803, and Jeremy556....... well - reality check time when I got there - cause there was no way I was anywhere near qualified enough to technically ride those roads with any decent skill level.
I don't usually join a group as I go with guys that I've ridden with and know that they have patience - cause they usually have to wait for me at the next highway change! No ego needed at this event - I've seen guys wad it up into a corner, run off the shoulder into a ditch, panic stop on the Dragon while looking for Killboy's camera crew, etc...
The roads in the area are awesome - and can also be deadly. Ride your own ride at your own pace and enjoy yourself. The fun stuff also happens after the days ride - make sure you take the care you need to get to the end of the day!!
I think the chicken strips make a great tool to get an idea. As said there are different riding styles that can be deceptive. If one rides on the seat, and another slides to the inside of the seat, there will be a difference in the end result.
[image: View Post]Kanadian Ken, on 10 May 2011 - 01:11 PM, said:
For what its worth - my first trip to the best riding roads I'd ever been on was to Nashville - and that was 6 or 7 years ago.
I came home after riding in that area with TBZEP and HURRICANE249 and felt like a rockstar riding around up here on our flat, straight, boring roads.
My next trip to the South was TMAC the next spring, and based on my last trip to Nashville area, I thought I should be able to ride with the locals like Baileyrock, and Wera803, and Jeremy556....... well - reality check time when I got there - cause there was no way I was anywhere near qualified enough to technically ride those roads with any decent skill level.
I don't usually join a group as I go with guys that I've ridden with and know that they have patience - cause they usually have to wait for me at the next highway change! No ego needed at this event - I've seen guys wad it up into a corner, run off the shoulder into a ditch, panic stop on the Dragon while looking for Killboy's camera crew, etc...
The roads in the area are awesome - and can also be deadly. Ride your own ride at your own pace and enjoy yourself. The fun stuff also happens after the days ride - make sure you take the care you need to get to the end of the day!!
:fing02:
You make a good point, which brings to mind what Keith Code told our class after it was over, "Wait till you get home, and see how much faster and easier you're local roads will be". Same thing for going to Franklin and riding there, then going back home. Home riding will be a lot more positive.
Just to add to what others have said - pick your group based on what BR said - intermediate at TMAC means fast and confident in tight endless twisties. If you have not ridden this area before, I strongly recommend you step it down for at least the first day!
I have been in several ad hoc groups at intermediate level and quickly realized people were in over their comfort and or skill level. I offered to lead them around at a more sedate pace and I think they all enjoyed it.
This will be my my 10th trip down to this general area and I do track days - and I would say that at home I am fast and down there I am intermediate slow - BR, Jeremy556, Tinyminds etc are the fast boys :idea3:
Remember this is a memorial ride and everybody should enjoy it and go home safe with great memories. :beer:
[image: View Post]Coastie, on 10 May 2011 - 03:48 PM, said:
LOL I have HUGE chicken strips on my tire. I hope i signed up for the relaxed group. I cant remember.
I generally ride pretty easy compared to a lot of this group but have about 1/4" chicken strips on my rear tire. So strips may not be a good indicator. Everybody has a different style so just remember to go easy the first day. It's REAL easy to get your confidence up and this is not a place to blow a corner.
I think chicken strips are a bad indicator of riding speed because they only show the amount of lean angle, not how that lean angle was achieved, and certainly no other factors.
A rider with good form on moderate roads might leave plenty of rubber "in reserve." A rider who is counterbalancing (leaning the wrong way) will use up all his lean angle much quicker.
Aside from that there are a lot of factors to consider, primarily being familiarity with this type of road.
I think chicken strips are a bad indicator of riding speed because they only show the amount of lean angle, not how that lean angle was achieved, and certainly no other factors.
A rider with good form on moderate roads might leave plenty of rubber "in reserve." A rider who is counterbalancing (leaning the wrong way) will use up all his lean angle much quicker.
Aside from that there are a lot of factors to consider, primarily being familiarity with this type of road.
I agree completely.
This is the only area I've ridden where I actually wanted a straight section just so I could rest from the relentless curves.
Take this to heart people. You're guaranteed a fun time no matter what - there's no need to come out and push your limits.
There are a lot of people coming this year and that's truly great, especially if everyone goes home in the same condition they arrived in!
I agree!
I've only missed one TMac and they have all been great events organized by BR with great care. Some have been better than others--accidents at the end of the day when folks are tired and off their planned apexes by a few inches are a real possibility. Not to be over dramatic--but the difference between a a smile and disaster is the difference of only a few inches and seconds on these roads.
Size of chicken strips is helpful, but not necessarily spot on depending on riding style. :biggrin:
Yep, if you put on some new tires and slab it down from wherever, ya may not impress anyone. On the other hand, slap some trackday take offs on and wear second hand leathers with worn out pucks and you may inspire false confidence in your abilities... Just be smart and know your own skill.
Size of chicken strips is helpful, but not necessarily spot on depending on riding style. :biggrin:
Yep, if you put on some new tires and slab it down from wherever, ya may not impress anyone. On the other hand, slap some trackday take offs on and wear second hand leathers with worn out pucks and you may inspire false confidence in your abilities... Just be smart and know your own skill.
I was thinkin' the same thing, Kev. When I pull into Franklin on the RC after 480 highway miles, those brand new Powers will have 3-inch wide chicky strips! :goofy: And I don't wear pucks cuz I like to keep my knees up against the tank where they belong....
Request: Is there any chance that Friday morning could have more shorter routes and then people would be more likely to try a slower group for their first ride? Then maybe have afternoon rides as well. A couple of 200 mile rides would be a great day!
Question: Around here, our group rides "sort themselves out" in the first few miles of twisties. Those of us that ride together regularly, know who we want to follow and who we want to be in front of. For others, we have them move up or back in the group at our first sort out stop, which we try to make after a few miles of good road. Also, we don't try to keep the group close together. We wait up at every intersection for the group to get back together. Is this a technique you employ?
I don't do track days, but I know several that do, that usually ride behind me on our group rides. There are a couple more that ride in front of me. I rode the Franklin Freeze Out with some of you a couple of years ago and the KY Pine Mountain ride that BillyJackJimBob hosted where I did pictures for many of you. I don't know how the paces we rode then, compare to the paces at TMAC. I'm still trying to decide what group to try to ride with. In my area, riding with sportbike riders, I'm usually one of the first 3 bikes. The VFRD group is made up of riders from a much larger area (and talent pool).
A relaxed group doesn't mean boring slow. When I lead, I try to keep somewhat within the speed limits (+5 or 8 max) on straight roads because there is no good reason for a perform ace award on a straight road that is simply a necessity to get to a nice set of twisties.
Once in the twisting stuff, speed can be ramped up or in some cases down to match the conditions. I have found, in general, a group of riders sort of falls in line after a few miles of twisties based on skill level even in the so called relaxed crew. No child left behind though, we always wait, if needed, at an intersection.
One difficulty in group riding is to get the break stops down to a science. Some guys can ride all day without stopping while others need a smoke break or a butt break more often. That has to be determined pretty much during the ride.
I try to stress the need for riders to keep a lookout in the rear view for the bike behind them. It is a way of informing the lead bike and those up ahead if a problem developed by either a wave of stopped bikes or one rider jumping ahead as a signal man to the riders up front.
wear second hand leathers with worn out pucks and you may inspire false confidence in your abilities...
Hey! I resemble that remark! Kev, you get to see your old leathers all fixed up... but I have new pucks (not that I get a knee down, ever.)
Please folks, take BaileyRock's words to heart. I've seen the fatigue set in on several riders at last year's TMAC.
If you are getting tired - PLEASE SIGNAL YOUR LEAD OR SWEEP!!! We'd rather take a break than pull you out of a wreck!
Edited by y2kvfr, 11 May 2011 - 06:53 AM.
If You are a Group Leader or Sweep, and see an Issue of Any Kind with a Rider, Take Care of it Immediately...!!!...Rider Problems never go away or fix Themselves on Continuously Twisty Roads, They simply get worse as the Miles mount up. If You feel a Rider needs to bump down to a Slower Group after watching Them Ride, then suggest it to Them as soon as possible. If the Rider doesn't want to accept Your advice, contact Baileyrock as soon as possible with the information. Having attended T-Mac in years past, and this year, BR takes Great Care to pick Ride Leaders with Lots of Miles and Years of Riding on the Type Roads encountered in the Area used for T-Mac. Also, "IF" You have a Rider in "slight trouble" and can't move Him/Her to another Group by hooking up on the Road or at a Stop during the Day's Ride, by all means back Your Ride down a little and/or take some more frequent stops.......Always Better to Slightly Bore several Experienced Riders, than to Stress One Inexperienced One.....Experienced Riders realize there will be Tomorrow.......... :fing02:
Yup. My tires are brand new after thrashing the last set at the track. :). That said, fatigue can get you at TMAC...
Size of chicken strips is helpful, but not necessarily spot on depending on riding style. :biggrin:
Yep, if you put on some new tires and slab it down from wherever, ya may not impress anyone. On the other hand, slap some trackday take offs on and wear second hand leathers with worn out pucks and you may inspire false confidence in your abilities... Just be smart and know your own skill.
I was thinkin' the same thing, Kev. When I pull into Franklin on the RC after 480 highway miles, those brand new Powers will have 3-inch wide chicky strips! :goofy: And I don't wear pucks cuz I like to keep my knees up against the tank where they belong....
Size of chicken strips is helpful, but not necessarily spot on depending on riding style. :biggrin:
Yep, if you put on some new tires and slab it down from wherever, ya may not impress anyone. On the other hand, slap some trackday take offs on and wear second hand leathers with worn out pucks and you may inspire false confidence in your abilities... Just be smart and know your own skill.
I was thinkin' the same thing, Kev. When I pull into Franklin on the RC after 480 highway miles, those brand new Powers will have 3-inch wide chicky strips! :goofy: And I don't wear pucks cuz I like to keep my knees up against the tank where they belong....
Agreed Trace, You can really not use chicken strips or knee pucks as a good judge of a group, I've maybe touched my pucks 5 times total since I've had my suit. I was in a group last year, and no more than 30 miles into the ride, the guy that insisted on being in front of me kept blowing corners until what BR references happened, the one he blew wasn't half as hard as the one he entered from the wrong side of the double yellow. He went down and almost went over a 50ft ravine, with only a tree stopping him. Please people, take it from those of us that live here and ride every weekend. These roads will bite you! Your ride will be much more enjoyable at a slower pace than your ego thinks you can do than it will sitting on the side of the road looking at your broken motorcycle. The people that I ride with on a regular basis have a rule, if you blow a corner, one corner, you are riding outside of your skill or concentration level and need to slow down. If you come out of a corner and can't believe you made it, or feel like the corners are coming too fast for you to setup properly, you are beyond your level. There are roads here that you can touch a knee at 15mph, as well as roads with high speed sweepers, and everything in between. Please be careful.
Yup. My tires are brand new after thrashing the last set at the track. :). That said, fatigue can get you at TMAC...
Just put new tires on as well, because I wore the middle out of them :laughing6-hehe:
But ya, its a whole different world of riding in this area. 09 was my first trip down, after taking a wrong turn off the end of the BRP and ending up going the towards the Dragon and not Franklin on my way in two years ago. I got to ride 28 in to Franklin totally by chance. Really opened by eyes to what I'm not use too, was glad I had picked the scenic group, and that’s why I picked it again this trip.
The worse part about it is, when you go home. Home becomes so boring (depending where you live), but you will find yourself out riding all your local riding buddies after spending a few days in this area, even at a a scenic level of riding.
Agreed Trace, You can really not use chicken strips or knee pucks as a good judge of a group, I've maybe touched my pucks 5 times total since I've had my suit. I was in a group last year, and no more than 30 miles into the ride, the guy that insisted on being in front of me kept blowing corners until what BR references happened, the one he blew wasn't half as hard as the one he entered from the wrong side of the double yellow. He went down and almost went over a 50ft ravine, with only a tree stopping him. Please people, take it from those of us that live here and ride every weekend. These roads will bite you! Your ride will be much more enjoyable at a slower pace than your ego thinks you can do than it will sitting on the side of the road looking at your broken motorcycle. The people that I ride with on a regular basis have a rule, if you blow a corner, one corner, you are riding outside of your skill or concentration level and need to slow down. If you come out of a corner and can't believe you made it, or feel like the corners are coming too fast for you to setup properly, you are beyond your level. There are roads here that you can touch a knee at 15mph, as well as roads with high speed sweepers, and everything in between. Please be careful.
http://www.vfrdiscus...tyle_emoticons/default/+1.gif I have more fun riding these roads riding a slower pace than trying to keep up with the faster riders like rufrydersc2 & BR and riding way over my head. I enjoy living life and I'm not going to let my ego take over what's smart when I ride. I see too many accidents in the mountains of people riding stupid. Don't let it be you.
Please folks, take BaileyRock's words to heart. I've seen the fatigue set in on several riders at last year's TMAC. We'd rather take a break than pull you out of a wreck![/font][/size][/color]
These roads will bite you! There are roads here that you can touch a knee at 15mph, as well as roads with high speed sweepers, and everything in between. Please be careful.
But ya, its a whole different world of riding in this area. Really opened by eyes to what I'm not used to, was glad I had picked the scenic group, and that’s why I picked it again this trip.
I have more fun riding these roads riding a slower pace than trying to keep up with the faster riders like rufrydersc2 & BR and riding way over my head. I see too many accidents in the mountains of people riding stupid. Don't let it be you.
Okay....now you guys are scaring me! :blink:
But want to point out another issue that some riders might be facing for the first time: PASSING ON DOUBLE YELLOW Maybe it's illegal in theory, but it's a necessity on these roads if you ever intend to get anywhere. I mean, you just HAVE to go around gaggles of Harleys and minivans and SUVs full of touristing families. The chances a cop seeing that happen is near zero, since it's all so amazingly twisty...and then he has to turn around and find/catch you. They can and do, but it's very unlikely. As for the "legal" aspects, you must realize that double-yellows are established for the slowest of vehicles to get around some other slow vehicle....NOT for the zoomy power-to-weight ooomph of a sportbike. Illegal does not always mean "dangerous and wreckless". Personally, I feel unsafe behind some slow vehicle, tapping their brakes, driver all nervous because a "ninja" is on their tail and they're looking in the mirror instead of where they're going. I prefer to zip around them and be gone. And so do they!
I think a newbie to the area will be shocked at how the experienced riders go around slower traffic, even in the twisty stuff (with proper timing and setup!), like it's no big deal. It isn't a big deal. It's "normal" in the mountains, so be ready for a safe passing area, use that throttle HARD in a lower gear and quickly go around the rolling chicanes when you get a short bit of straight road! Or...a diving pass into an upcoming righthander is always fun! :squid:
But if you simply don't want to break the law, or are unsure ot the concept of illegal manuvers, then by all means follow a smoking diesel truck towing a boat full of bouncing, shifting fishing poles for 50 miles. I just wanted to put the concept out there for everyone to think about before they find themselves in the situation when everyone else in their group makes a pass and is gone.
Lots of Great responses from regulars here, but I've had zero responses from the 1st timers who signed up Int/fast. The only PM was from a member who wanted to make sure he did in fact sign up for Relaxed! :fing02:
Wish I could get off work for this ride. I've probably ridden a good 20K miles on those roads and I can tell you for sure that they are no place experiment with your riding skills.
They are hands down the best roads in the country. Enjoy.
[image: View Post]KCPhoto, on 11 May 2011 - 06:14 AM, said:
I have a request and question for this thread.
Request: Is there any chance that Friday morning could have more shorter routes and then people would be more likely to try a slower group for their first ride? Then maybe have afternoon rides as well. A couple of 200 mile rides would be a great day!
Kenny, 200 miles is usually More than either the Scenic or Relaxed groups ride all day! Newer less experienced riders get Fatiuged really quick in this area and that is a Bad thing, so over the years we've fine tuned their routes to shorter ones. On teh other hand 90% of out Int. guys run over 300 miles of fairly rapid pace both days.
Question: Around here, our group rides "sort themselves out" in the first few miles of twisties. Those of us that ride together regularly, know who we want to follow and who we want to be in front of. For others, we have them move up or back in the group at our first sort out stop, which we try to make after a few miles of good road. Also, we don't try to keep the group close together. We wait up at every intersection for the group to get back together. Is this a technique you employ?
Maybe in the Int. groups, but in general NO for the two slower groups! It's just way to easy and very common for newer riders to whick it up in the straights trying to catch up only to enter the next turn Much faster than their ability can make an dwe have a Crash.
For this reason I Never ride with people i don't know, except at the Tmacs because we run things differently here we ride for the group and not the indivigual.. Now the skilled Int. groups can do as they wish.
I don't do track days, but I know several that do, that usually ride behind me on our group rides. There are a couple more that ride in front of me. I rode the Franklin Freeze Out with some of you a couple of years ago and the KY Pine Mountain ride that BillyJackJimBob hosted where I did pictures for many of you. I don't know how the paces we rode then, compare to the paces at TMAC. I'm still trying to decide what group to try to ride with. In my area, riding with sportbike riders, I'm usually one of the first 3 bikes. The VFRD group is made up of riders from a much larger area (and talent pool).
You should be fine in Int. and BJJB is a solid Mid Int. rider for refferance. Finding a group to fit in with is what's needed.
On track day experience, all that means is that someone has had at least Some training and has gained some needed skills that helps riding in this area. Doesn't mean you are fast or slow!
My only concern with you or anyone new joining the event is if someone trys to Prove just how good they are no matter what their riding and takes out someone or crashes.
The Tmac is Not a compatition, it's suppose be a fun event. We do our best with the help of our attendees to try and group up rides in groups that best suites everyone's skills & abilities, This along with quaility Leads has helped make this a safe, fun and sucessful event.Thanks,
Kenny
I was down there for the fall meet-up, and have been down in that area before. I've done more than a few track days as well.
From what I understood, the riding was at a "less that what the fast guys would consider brisk" or relaxed maybe, and for me it was not slow. I had to work at it. So, if the Int is faster than that, it's pretty fast.
I'd suggest if you don't want to pass on a D-yellow let it be known when looking for a group to ride with.
Something else I haven't seen mentioned is that to set up a group that rides close to the same pace, is that the sweep is usually the fastest rider(makes it easier to catch up with the group). I'm not talking about a faster rider sitting on the slower riders butt. Two/three sec. space, or one turn behind.
I think the thought is from watching peeps (cages/bikes), that if they can hang on someones tail it shows everyone that the only thing keeping them from going faster is the one in front of them. You can prove the same thing while keeping a safe space between you.
I'd like to ride with the slower Int.'s.
I rode with a group that was faster than I am, by enough that the smokers got most of a cig in as I pulled up, and since I don't like stopping for the most part, I'd pull up and we'd all take off again, seemed to work out for both of us, at least that's what they were nice enough to tell me. :fing02:
[image: View Post]y2kvfr, on 11 May 2011 - 12:01 PM, said:
[image: View Post]KPerham, on 11 May 2011 - 11:56 AM, said:
[image: View Post]y2kvfr, on 11 May 2011 - 06:50 AM, said:
[image: View Post]KPerham, on 10 May 2011 - 07:32 PM, said:
wear second hand leathers with worn out pucks and you may inspire false confidence in your abilities...
Hey! I resemble that remark! Kev, you get to see your old leathers all fixed up... but I have new pucks (not that I get a knee down, ever.)
Please folks, take BaileyRock's words to heart. I've seen the fatigue set in on several riders at last year's TMAC.
If you are getting tired - PLEASE SIGNAL YOUR LEAD OR SWEEP!!! We'd rather take a break than pull you out of a wreck!
Hey, now I resemble that remark!
Ha! You did the right thing, and we all slowed it down. You weren't the only one Kev! (Besides, that ride was hell in the fog!)
Yep! That only serves to further illustrate the point of the groups. These are GROUP Rides, not Group Starts! As in "Here's the route, see ya at lunch...
Unfortunately I learned that day just how anxious and mentally exhausted I get in wet conditions. But there's no leaving anyone behind. :beer:
But, in ideal conditions, you should try to be sure you are riding in your own comfort zone, and in a group that shares that comfort zone. It sucks to be the one dragging everyone back, or wanting to take off and leave everyone behind. :idea3:
There is also a difference between how fast you are and how fast you are willing to go 600 miles from home, on unfamiliar and unrelenting roads, with people depending on you for a fun time.
I have zero chicken strips and well used sliders, and I am nowhere near the skill level of the very fast guys that will be there. I have found that over the beer/iced tea sessions, you can sorta figure out who you will want to be in your group. Last year my group didnt have a classification but it was "quick but not really really fast" I was in the right group and I felt comfortable and it made my ride 100% more fun.
And one last thing.....These are VFR owners. NO ONE will be impressed by riding over your level. No one cares how fast you are. (thank goodness for me)
[image: View Post]Trace, on 11 May 2011 - 12:13 PM, said:
But want to point out another issue that some riders might be facing for the first time: PASSING ON DOUBLE YELLOW Maybe it's illegal in theory, but it's a necessity on these roads if you ever intend to get anywhere. I mean, you just HAVE to go around gaggles of Harleys and minivans and SUVs full of touristing families. The chances a cop seeing that happen is near zero, since it's all so amazingly twisty...and then he has to turn around and find/catch you. They can and do, but it's very unlikely. As for the "legal" aspects, you must realize that double-yellows are established for the slowest of vehicles to get around some other slow vehicle....NOT for the zoomy power-to-weight ooomph of a sportbike. Illegal does not always mean "dangerous and wreckless". Personally, I feel unsafe behind some slow vehicle, tapping their brakes, driver all nervous because a "ninja" is on their tail and they're looking in the mirror instead of where they're going. I prefer to zip around them and be gone. And so do they!
And this is the prime reason that I am SWEEPING the relaxed group that TallDrinkOfWater and I volunteered to take out. I realized at the '10 fall meet that I have trouble leading a group that isn't familiar with passing on the double yellow. All riders need to let their leader know up front if they are comfortable with it or not, and the leader needs to be conscientious of his leadership when it comes to that as well. Make sure after he passes to let the group when it is safe or not because the guy in front can see farther and also give advance warning. For relaxed or scenic groups it's just a better idea not to, or to expect not to much.
[image: View Post]rufrydrsc2, on 11 May 2011 - 06:22 PM, said:
Make sure after he passes to let the group know when it is safe or not because the guy in front can see farther and also give advance warning.
While on this subject of relayed signals for passing/or not passing. Get the signals confirmed before starting the day.
[image: View Post]Trace, on 11 May 2011 - 12:13 PM, said:
...PASSING ON DOUBLE YELLOW... I mean, you just HAVE to go around gaggles of Harleys and minivans and SUVs full of touristing families. The chances a cop seeing that happen is near zero, since it's all so amazingly twisty...and then he has to turn around and find/catch you. They can and do, but it's very unlikely.
We'll.... it cost me $185 last year. :biggrin: It was probably the 1,252nd time I did it though. LEO said he gave me a break, only one ticket, said he saw me pass 2 trucks. :dry:
To be able to ride a decent pace or faster, the (careful) passing of roadblocks, I mean Harleys, I mean other vehicals.... is unavoidable.
[image: View Post]BaileyRock, on 11 May 2011 - 10:20 PM, said:
I would think that the Only group that might Not Pass on Double Yellow would be Scenic, all others do it on a regular basis. :blush:
Yep, I do it all the time up in that Area (even on the Trike or 125 Scooter... :biggrin: ) when by myself, or riding with Friends I have ridden with a lot, but NEVER while Leading SCENIC Group Rides or semi-inexperienced Riders that are un-familiar to me.....first ingredient for a Disaster. Experienced Riders can do it very quickly and safely with good timing..... :fing02:
NOTE for Good Riders that are unfamiliar with the Technique, and riding with a Group doing it for Your first time: If unsure of Yourself, wait until You get an opening that allows You to see through the curve You are at, and the start of the next one. There are lots of these oppurtunities in the Area, and should allow you enough time to complete the pass. Start Your pass as soon as possible, because each passing foot of road is valuable in this situation..... :fing02:
I've ridden in the faster groups each year and find that fatigue during the 330-350 mile loops is the biggest issue. You may ride these distances on a regular basis, but you'll be surprised how much more difficult it is in the constant twisties and zero highway miles. Luckily the high temperatures will be mid 70's this year, which helps to manage fatigue.
Talk about 2 criteria with each group. 1) riding experience and style. 2) distance.
Personally, I plan to take relaxing routes in the 230-280 mile range, but like to ride as hard as the faster groups.
-Thursday - take advantage of mid week to ride the Gap all day. Make a run to the other side of the Skyway and back for lunch. (I recommend riding the Skyway out of Robinsville and back instead of taking the loop from the Gap to Telico Plains - the loop isn't nearly as fun as 2 trips across the Skyway)
-Friday - ride N. Ga and Suches Loop. (230 miles hits the best roads once. 270 miles if interested in a 2nd lap around Suches loop)
-Not sure about Saturday yet.
I also want to throw out a warning to the new people. When you get on these super twisty roads you will get into a groove which gets comfortable and can get your speed up higher than when you started the day. The only time I have ever crashed my bike was on the dragon last october. I had had been leading a buddy with about the same riding skills as me but was new to the area. We had been riding at a pretty brisk pace all day about 5 hours through N Ga, TN, and NC. We were about 8-9 miles up the dragon when we got behind a car pulling a boat and about a dozen harleys stacked up behind it (yeah, going THAT slow). The car refused to pull over and there were too many vehicles all bunched up to safely pass at one go. So we pulled over on a pull off and waited about 10-15 min for the car to get past the point where we planned on turning around. I started us off right back at the same pace we had worked up to and didn't give myself time to get back in the groove. Less than a mile later I came out of a corner not on the line I wanted, made a stupid, rookie mental mistake, and put my beloved, never been crashed VFR in the ditch.
When you stop for a break, even a short one where you don't even get off the bike, go slower than you were riding before when you start back up. Give yourself time to get back in the groove.
[image: View Post]VFRBulldawg, on 12 May 2011 - 10:09 AM, said:
Give yourself time to get back in the groove.
Yeah, that's good advice, that there is. :fing02:
As for passing...he who hesitates is lost. When you see your opening, be ready for it by being in a lower gear with the rpm up in the power range, and then GO FOR IT! Timid use of the throttle will get you hung-out-to-dry. And nobody wants to be "well hung"! :blink: :blush: Use all 12,000 rpm (it won't blow up, believe me) and GET ON WITH IT. That's what sportbiking is all about.....power and brakes.
And another thing: When you make your pass, remember that the guy behind you might have gone with you or is doing so very soon, so keep your speed up as much as possible and get some distance on the car you just passed to give him some room to slip in to. :bliss:
[image: View Post]Trace, on 12 May 2011 - 06:36 PM, said:
When you make your pass, remember that the guy behind you might have gone with you or is doing so very soon, so keep your speed up as much as possible and get some distance on the car you just passed to give him some room to slip in to. :bliss:
skuuter trash, on 12 May 2011 - 03:26 AM, said:
BaileyRock, on 11 May 2011 - 10:20 PM, said:
I would think that the Only group that might Not Pass on Double Yellow would be Scenic, all others do it on a regular basis.
Yep, I do it all the time up in that Area (even on the Trike or 125 Scooter... ) when by myself, or riding with Friends I have ridden with a lot, but NEVER while Leading SCENIC Group Rides or semi-inexperienced Riders that are un-familiar to me.....first ingredient for a Disaster. Experienced Riders can do it very quickly and safely with good timing.....
NOTE for Good Riders that are unfamiliar with the Technique, and riding with a Group doing it for Your first time: If unsure of Yourself, wait until You get an opening that allows You to see through the curve You are at, and the start of the next one. There are lots of these oppurtunities in the Area, and should allow you enough time to complete the pass. Start Your pass as soon as possible, because each passing foot of road is valuable in this situation.....
Keep in mind guys, this is not the way to pass on a double.
action at 48sec
[image: View Post]Trace, on 11 May 2011 - 12:13 PM, said:
[image: View Post]y2kvfr, on 11 May 2011 - 06:50 AM, said:
Please folks, take BaileyRock's words to heart. I've seen the fatigue set in on several riders at last year's TMAC. We'd rather take a break than pull you out of a wreck![/font][/size][/color]
[image: View Post]rufrydrsc2, on 11 May 2011 - 10:48 AM, said:
These roads will bite you! There are roads here that you can touch a knee at 15mph, as well as roads with high speed sweepers, and everything in between. Please be careful.
[image: View Post]dweese, on 11 May 2011 - 11:03 AM, said:
But ya, its a whole different world of riding in this area. Really opened by eyes to what I'm not used to, was glad I had picked the scenic group, and that�s why I picked it again this trip.
[image: View Post]talldrinkofwater, on 11 May 2011 - 11:15 AM, said:
I have more fun riding these roads riding a slower pace than trying to keep up with the faster riders like rufrydersc2 & BR and riding way over my head. I see too many accidents in the mountains of people riding stupid. Don't let it be you.
Okay....now you guys are scaring me! :blink:
But want to point out another issue that some riders might be facing for the first time: PASSING ON DOUBLE YELLOW Maybe it's illegal in theory, but it's a necessity on these roads if you ever intend to get anywhere. I mean, you just HAVE to go around gaggles of Harleys and minivans and SUVs full of touristing families. The chances a cop seeing that happen is near zero, since it's all so amazingly twisty...and then he has to turn around and find/catch you. They can and do, but it's very unlikely. As for the "legal" aspects, you must realize that double-yellows are established for the slowest of vehicles to get around some other slow vehicle....NOT for the zoomy power-to-weight ooomph of a sportbike. Illegal does not always mean "dangerous and wreckless". Personally, I feel unsafe behind some slow vehicle, tapping their brakes, driver all nervous because a "ninja" is on their tail and they're looking in the mirror instead of where they're going. I prefer to zip around them and be gone. And so do they!
I think a newbie to the area will be shocked at how the experienced riders go around slower traffic, even in the twisty stuff (with proper timing and setup!), like it's no big deal. It isn't a big deal. It's "normal" in the mountains, so be ready for a safe passing area, use that throttle HARD in a lower gear and quickly go around the rolling chicanes when you get a short bit of straight road! Or...a diving pass into an upcoming righthander is always fun! :squid:
But if you simply don't want to break the law, or are unsure ot the concept of illegal manuvers, then by all means follow a smoking diesel truck towing a boat full of bouncing, shifting fishing poles for 50 miles. I just wanted to put the concept out there for everyone to think about before they find themselves in the situation when everyone else in their group makes a pass and is gone.
Just sayin'....
+1 You'll never make it out the parking lot !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1st time TMACer here. Figured I'd post my "classified" in an attempt to find a ride group:
30 year old BMW K1200S rider (former 1997 VFR / F4i Frankenviffer rider) seeks quick relaxed vs slow intermediate group to ride with. While I don't have TMAC experience, I have been riding for 5 years total experience and 2 years of riding in the Blue Ridge Mtns and around Hanging Rock park near Winston Salem. I'd prefer to ride with folks who are regulars to twisty roads, because I know how slow I was when I moved from Ohio to the mountains and "thought" I knew what I was doing. I would prefer not to follow someone without experience. My rides are frequently 200-300 mile days with a break every 1-2 hours. I ride the PACE and regularly follow the group rules posted on this forum in my own group rides locally. I like doing 10-15mph over the posted speed limit on clean roads because this balances fun while reducing speeding awards. The road is not the track, and I treat it as such because I don't want to go down. Wet, oily, gravel filled, and blind corners are serious stuff, and I limit speed/lean angle as appropriate. I will pass anything that is going under the speed limit or does not know how to take a corner on backroads regardless of a double yellow because it is unsafe to follow these people. In relatively more populated roads, I think this gives riders a bad rap and increases the likelihood of tickets. I have medical experience and this should come in handy riding sweep in case someone goes down (lets hope not). Tailgaiters piss me off.
I just got back from Robbinsville yesterday. The point about experience with these roads cannot be stressed enough. Whatever pace you think you've got in your "normal" scenery you literally need to knock down a level just due to the technically challenging nature of the roads and terrain down there.
The three best pieces of advice I can offer after being there...
1 - Pick a good line! Stay as far away from the yellow as you safely can as there are many that have difficulty staying in their lane (cars, trucks/trailers, semis!).
2 - Look through your corners! Distractions are everywhere down there (wildlife, passers, photographers, gravel) if you're looking where you should it'll help keep from target fixating.
3 - Ride YOUR ride! Don't let competition, egos, and/or fear of falling behind push you outside your comfort/skill zone.
I got a first hand lesson on these as soon as I got there as I saw a local guy wad up a $20k+ BMW HP2 Sport on 28 and break his collar bone.
Be safe all, it's the most beautiful riding you may ever experience...and the most enjoyable if you play it smart!
Let me add my two cents in to help you all have a more enjoyable weekend...
I know most of you never break any of the posted laws, but just in case one of you does.
I ride around here about five times a week...
I have noticed more NCHP on US 129 between Robbinsville and The Hill. Part of this is due to one living on US129 by the rocket fuel store and another on Yellow Creek Road.
Rumor has it that they will write for five over if you get pulled. One of them is a HD Classic rider.
NCHP has stepped up patrols on US28 from 74 to about ten miles south heading towards Franklin.
The speed limit is 55mph. So they will be getting you for crossing the double yellow, since 55mph in that section is FLYING!
NCHP has gotten sneeky. If you see a Dadge Magnum, treat it as a Police Interceptor.
NC now has them in all colors and they are very hard to spot, sometimes... Especially the Gold ones.
The RADAR works 100% from the front and back of the car and they are very quick with the instant on at motorcycles.
I get hit at least once on every ride.
Be safe an stay away from the yellow lines.
There are so many cars which cross the lines in every turn.
[image: View Post]gr8vfr, on 15 May 2011 - 08:01 PM, said:
Let me add my two cents in to help you all have a more enjoyable weekend...
I know most of you never break any of the posted laws, but just in case one of you does.
I ride around here about five times a week...
I have noticed more NCHP on US 129 between Robbinsville and The Hill. Part of this is due to one living on US129 by the rocket fuel store and another on Yellow Creek Road.
Rumor has it that they will write for five over if you get pulled. One of them is a HD Classic rider.
NCHP has stepped up patrols on US28 from 74 to about ten miles south heading towards Franklin.
The speed limit is 55mph. So they will be getting you for crossing the double yellow, since 55mph in that section is FLYING!
NCHP has gotten sneeky. If you see a Dadge Magnum, treat it as a Police Interceptor.
NC now has them in all colors and they are very hard to spot, sometimes... Especially the Gold ones.
The RADAR works 100% from the front and back of the car and they are very quick with the instant on at motorcycles.
I get hit at least once on every ride.
Be safe an stay away from the yellow lines.
There are so many cars which cross the lines in every turn.
[image: View Post]BaileyRock, on 10 May 2011 - 11:49 AM, said:
Size of chicken strips is helpful, but not necessarily spot on depending on riding style. :biggrin:
Especially, if you live in StraightandFlatistan (Florida) -thx, Creggur! "Aha, 1/2" chicken strips...you must really rip those cloverleafs, grasshopper." :comp13: Where's my BIC lighter?
INFORMATION FOOTNOTE: If this is Your First Time to the T-Mac Area, and even if it isn't...The Tellico Plains Visitors Center has a great Little Map entitled "VISIT GRAHAM COUNTY, NORTH CAROLINA-ROADS TO ADVENTURE", and it is Totally FREE. It has a very easy to Read/Study Simplistic Layout of Most All of the Favorite, and Most Motorcycle Traveled Roads in the Area, and a Great Picture of where You are in relation to the Other Places/Roads You intend to visit.
The Visitors Center is on Your Right as You come off the Cherohala coming into Tellico right before intersecting Hwy 68...if You go into Town there, pick one up....... :fing02:
[image: View Post]Trace, on 12 May 2011 - 06:36 PM, said:
[image: View Post]VFRBulldawg, on 12 May 2011 - 10:09 AM, said:
Give yourself time to get back in the groove.
Yeah, that's good advice, that there is. :fing02:
As for passing...he who hesitates is lost. When you see your opening, be ready for it by being in a lower gear with the rpm up in the power range, and then GO FOR IT! Timid use of the throttle will get you hung-out-to-dry. And nobody wants to be "well hung"! :blink: :blush: Use all 12,000 rpm (it won't blow up, believe me) and GET ON WITH IT. That's what sportbiking is all about.....power and brakes.
And another thing: When you make your pass, remember that the guy behind you might have gone with you or is doing so very soon, so keep your speed up as much as possible and get some distance on the car you just passed to give him some room to slip in to. :bliss:
[image: View Post]gr8vfr, on 15 May 2011 - 08:01 PM, said:
Let me add my two cents in to help you all have a more enjoyable weekend...
I know most of you never break any of the posted laws, but just in case one of you does.
I ride around here about five times a week...
I have noticed more NCHP on US 129 between Robbinsville and The Hill. Part of this is due to one living on US129 by the rocket fuel store and another on Yellow Creek Road.
Rumor has it that they will write for five over if you get pulled. One of them is a HD Classic rider.
NCHP has stepped up patrols on US28 from 74 to about ten miles south heading towards Franklin.
The speed limit is 55mph. So they will be getting you for crossing the double yellow, since 55mph in that section is FLYING!
NCHP has gotten sneeky. If you see a Dadge Magnum, treat it as a Police Interceptor.
NC now has them in all colors and they are very hard to spot, sometimes... Especially the Gold ones.
The RADAR works 100% from the front and back of the car and they are very quick with the instant on at motorcycles.
I get hit at least once on every ride.
Be safe an stay away from the yellow lines.
There are so many cars which cross the lines in every turn.
[image: View Post]grond1234, on 10 May 2011 - 03:29 PM, said:
...
I have been in several ad hoc groups at intermediate level and quickly realized people were in over their comfort and or skill level. I offered to lead them around at a more sedate pace and I think they all enjoyed it.
...
I have been in one of those groups last year. Last year was my 5th tmac, so I felt confident about my group choice. Unfortunately, I forgot about the fact that I rode only 200 miles that year before the meeting. Also, I have not worked out for a year or two. So, it only took 15-45 miles to figure out I was not going to make it in that group.
So, the group split. I stayed with the "slower" riders and had awesome fun.
This year I am in similar condition. So, I do not even think about intermediate group riding. I just want to cruise around safely and have a fun safety meeting every night. :biggrin:
Hence the need for the "comfort" break...probably a good idea to increase you fluid intake a couple of weeks before TMac so your body can adjust to having the proper amount of hydration Rice...
Good idea there.
All kidding aside, I do drink (water) more than usual during long rides in order to stay alert and combat fatigue, with all the consequences thereof.
LOL I have HUGE chicken strips on my tire. I hope i signed up for the relaxed group. I cant remember.
I generally ride pretty easy compared to a lot of this group but have about 1/4" chicken strips on my rear tire. So strips may not be a good indicator. Everybody has a different style so just remember to go easy the first day. It's REAL easy to get your confidence up and this is not a place to blow a corner.
I'll have to agree with that somewhat. There are turns you can ride at 20 mph with a lot of banking to them and you'll get to the outer edge of your rear tire. I know 20 mph and your thinking geez that's slow but on some roads over in NC going 20 mph or less on the switch backs feels like your flying at times. Not to mention that there are rock walls just a few feet away from you (and that's no shit) Even "bumping" into a rock wall at 20 mph can get you seriously injured or worse. Not trying to deter anyone from going...oh but you must go..you'll love it!!
Something else I would like to ad....maybe others are this way also. I find myself when going on a ride (especially on twisty roads) at first I'm slow and nervous when the ride first starts because I'm thinking about being on unfamiliar roads and what will the road conditions be like. I have to get my mind set to "motorcycle mode". It usually takes me a while to get confidence built up in my tires, getting the feel for how the bike handles, countersteering, looking ahead, not fixating, braking, right gear coming into the turns, not turning too soon as I come into the turns. In other words "motorcycle mode". Then usually after a pit stop for lunch I'll be pulling your tail feathers outta ya...a__ and honking my horn yelling "Get out of my way!" :goofy: Does anyone else do this? :biggrin:
Hell, it still bothers me especially on the Dragon when any vehicle is coming in the opposite direction, because half eh time they ARE in Your Lane!!! :unsure:
Expect that also and build in even more Reserve to react to cars and bikes in your lane( especially on the Dragon!)
BR
...as TRUE as it gets..... :fing02:
End of thread · 66 posts recoveredWayback Machine snapshot 1 Nov 2013