Center Stand Leverage

Last year, I used the infamous "triangle mod" to lower my VFR. I have a 29 inch inseam, and was uncomfortable controlling the bike when stopped in traffic. I've made all of the other required adjustments, shortened side stand (Sigma Cycles), raised forks, and pre-load adjustments front and rear. The bike works well for me, except for the centerstand. I weight 175 and can generally get it up on the stand on 3 or 4 rocks, but I'd like to get there the first time, every time. Yes, I've seen the video on technique and I can pop it immediately if I've got a slight downhill slope. I considered having a welding shop cut down a ebay center stand, but the center brace and pivot point for the arm would need to be moved. Today it hit me, what if you added length and bracing to the arm you stand on to improve centerstand leverage? The engineering should be relatively simple, the additional weight would be minimal and there are an abundance of used stands to experiment on. I haven't taken measurements yet, but if I remember my physics, delivered force would go up based on the horizontal vector added by the extension. Accepting for the moment that I find the bike safe to ride with the mods completed, what say you to my proposed centerstand mod?

[image: View Post]Africord, on 10 June 2011 - 02:34 PM, said:

Last year, I used the infamous "triangle mod" to lower my VFR. I have a 29 inch inseam, and was uncomfortable controlling the bike when stopped in traffic. I've made all of the other required adjustments, shortened side stand (Sigma Cycles), raised forks, and pre-load adjustments front and rear. The bike works well for me, except for the centerstand. I weight 175 and can generally get it up on the stand on 3 or 4 rocks, but I'd like to get there the first time, every time. Yes, I've seen the video on technique and I can pop it immediately if I've got a slight downhill slope. I considered having a welding shop cut down a ebay center stand, but the center brace and pivot point for the arm would need to be moved. Today it hit me, what if you added length and bracing to the arm you stand on to improve centerstand leverage? The engineering should be relatively simple, the additional weight would be minimal and there are an abundance of used stands to experiment on. I haven't taken measurements yet, but if I remember my physics, delivered force would go up based on the horizontal vector added by the extension. Accepting for the moment that I find the bike safe to ride with the mods completed, what say you to my proposed centerstand mod?

Wouldn't adding length to the leverage arm possibly compromise ground clearance when cornering?

I generally like the idea as long as it doesn't bonk the swing arm when up.

Go spend $50 on a used center stand and try it out.

Could be the start of a new business opportunity for ya!

Leverage will help a bit, of course, but wouldn't it just be easier to do this?

[image: Posted Image]

I usually just roll the rear tire up onto a thin phone book and then put the stand down. Mine is at stock height, and not too difficult to raise, but another 3/4" makes it cake. You could do the same thing, and just use a thicker book (or whatever).

Buy a used centerstand off EBAY and shorten the two legs a like amount to suit your bike?



OT, but my 5th gen has far less centerstand leverage than my old '86 did.

I could pop the '86 up onto the centerstand WHILE SEATED ON THE BIKE! Not so, the 5th gen.

Try this.....

After putting the side stand done. Put ur right hand on/near the left pillion footrest.Step on the centre stand.....make the bike level sit on both the legs....In one momentum...pull with ur right hand and stand on the centre stand.....use u left hand on the left handlebar to stablize it.

Make sure you're in neutral or have the clutch pulled in. I'm fairly short and I find this helps a lot.
I assume everyone does it but I noticed that it wasn't mentioned. Then again, this is with a stock configuration so it may or may not help

Thank you for your feedback.

1. I already have the bike in neutral and use the lift technique listed. However, a lowered bike has to be raised further by the stand and as a result is more difficult to lift.
2. I can work out alternatives to help me lift the bike when I do maintenance at home. However, I tour a fair bit and need to do things like checking oil level and chain maintenance on the road. My last long trip I carried a copy of boards to assist me in lifting the bike, but I'd like a better engineered solution as I can't always find a hill in flat Nebraska.
3. The arm I am referring to points up when retracted and wraps around the swing arm. Adding length should not create a clearance issue as long as the springs can hold it up.
4. I didn't want to shortened the stand as I would need to relocate the the cross brace and the lifting arm.
5. I like the idea of starting a business, but I suspect the market would be pretty small. I expect that Sigma Cycles would produce the modified center stands if there was a market, since they already produce a kit including bar risers, shortened side stand and a lowering link.

I hope to get this project going next month.

[image: View Post]Veefer800Canuck, on 11 June 2011 - 03:09 PM, said:

Buy a used centerstand off EBAY and shorten the two legs a like amount to suit your bike?
OT, but my 5th gen has far less centerstand leverage than my old '86 did.
I could pop the '86 up onto the centerstand WHILE SEATED ON THE BIKE! Not so, the 5th gen.


Yep, me, too.
My VF500 I could stand on the centrestand while on the bike and pop it up on the stand.
Didn't work very well on the 2005 - torn ligaments and almost dropping it on the ground. :pissed:

SW-Motech makes a pull handle for several bikes that attaches to the passenger pegs. It helps a lot with leverage, especially on low centrestands. Worth a look. Maybe you can mod it to fit on your VFR.

[image: Posted Image]

I have a Park-N-Move cradle for my VFR. Its a plate with a raised caster at each corner.
The bottom plate is 1/4 inch thick and about 1/4 inch of ground clearance under it. You put it
under the center stand and you can slide the bike sideways and anyway you want to.

But, that added 1/2" under the center stand makes it much more difficult to raise it up onto
the stand. The manufacturer recommends a board under the rear tire and that does
help restore original stand geometry and make it easier to lift.

Of course it was easier when I had the passenger grab handles installed. Now I have to
grab the passenger peg bracket underhand to do the lifting.

Cutting a stand's feet and welding on new skids should work fine. But trail and error will
be the name of the game.

[image: View Post]Africord, on 13 June 2011 - 10:42 AM, said:

Thank you for your feedback.

1. I already have the bike in neutral and use the lift technique listed. However, a lowered bike has to be raised further by the stand and as a result is more difficult to lift.
2. I can work out alternatives to help me lift the bike when I do maintenance at home. However, I tour a fair bit and need to do things like checking oil level and chain maintenance on the road. My last long trip I carried a copy of boards to assist me in lifting the bike, but I'd like a better engineered solution as I can't always find a hill in flat Nebraska.
3. The arm I am referring to points up when retracted and wraps around the swing arm. Adding length should not create a clearance issue as long as the springs can hold it up.
4. I didn't want to shortened the stand as I would need to relocate the the cross brace and the lifting arm.
5. I like the idea of starting a business, but I suspect the market would be pretty small. I expect that Sigma Cycles would produce the modified center stands if there was a market, since they already produce a kit including bar risers, shortened side stand and a lowering link.

I hope to get this project going next month.


Hi Andrea,

I took a few photos to check out the lever arms.

Let me say that I'm very surprised at the standard setup (not that I think anybody else's is much different).

[image: Posted Image]
CStand1

In this side view, the bike weight at the stand pivot is L (load), your effort at the stand pedal is F (force), and the reaction load from Mother Earth is R. The lever arm LR is about twice that of FR, meaning that F needs to be about twice L. Assuming I haven't forgotten statics...

So, pretty much anything you can do to increase FR will make a huge difference. If you can fasten something to the existing stand arm you can test any changes in length before you get the welder fired up. Any increase in length will need to follow the existing axis since there is no room to get closer to the ground, but can be tucked in around the swingarm (i think you've already put enough thought into this to know what I mean).

[image: Posted Image]
CStand2

Let me know if this isn't clear.

Glenn

[image: View Post]rdguy, on 13 June 2011 - 08:05 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Africord, on 13 June 2011 - 10:42 AM, said:

Thank you for your feedback.

1. I already have the bike in neutral and use the lift technique listed. However, a lowered bike has to be raised further by the stand and as a result is more difficult to lift.
2. I can work out alternatives to help me lift the bike when I do maintenance at home. However, I tour a fair bit and need to do things like checking oil level and chain maintenance on the road. My last long trip I carried a copy of boards to assist me in lifting the bike, but I'd like a better engineered solution as I can't always find a hill in flat Nebraska.
3. The arm I am referring to points up when retracted and wraps around the swing arm. Adding length should not create a clearance issue as long as the springs can hold it up.
4. I didn't want to shortened the stand as I would need to relocate the the cross brace and the lifting arm.
5. I like the idea of starting a business, but I suspect the market would be pretty small. I expect that Sigma Cycles would produce the modified center stands if there was a market, since they already produce a kit including bar risers, shortened side stand and a lowering link.

I hope to get this project going next month.


Hi Andrea,

I took a few photos to check out the lever arms.

Let me say that I'm very surprised at the standard setup (not that I think anybody else's is much different).

[image: Posted Image]
CStand1

In this side view, the bike weight at the stand pivot is L (load), your effort at the stand pedal is F (force), and the reaction load from Mother Earth is R. The lever arm LR is about twice that of FR, meaning that F needs to be about twice L. Assuming I haven't forgotten statics...

So, pretty much anything you can do to increase FR will make a huge difference. If you can fasten something to the existing stand arm you can test any changes in length before you get the welder fired up. Any increase in length will need to follow the existing axis since there is no room to get closer to the ground, but can be tucked in around the swingarm (i think you've already put enough thought into this to know what I mean).

[image: Posted Image]
CStand2

Let me know if this isn't clear.

Glenn

Other than my name isn't Andrea, its Brian, I think you are spot on. I was looking at a 33% increase in length to reduce the force requirement by 25%. The force vectors ratios would not change because the angle would remain the same. Because the bike is lowered, my angle isn't as good as yours for transferring force because the breakdown of horizontal and vertical vectors is less favorable. Extending FR restores what leverage was lost in lowering the bike.

Around here we call everyone 'Andrea'. :laughing6-hehe:

[image: View Post]Africord, on 14 June 2011 - 12:00 PM, said:

Other than my name isn't Andrea, its Brian, I think you are spot on.

[image: View Post]Africord, on 14 June 2011 - 12:00 PM, said:

Other than my name isn't Andrea, its Brian,



Oops :blush: We were having exactly this conversation with Andrea at TMac, and I didn't see a name, and, uh...

[image: View Post]Africord, on 14 June 2011 - 12:00 PM, said:

Because the bike is lowered, my angle isn't as good as yours for transferring force because the breakdown of horizontal and vertical vectors is less favorable. Extending FR restores what leverage was lost in lowering the bike.



True, I'd overlooked that your leverage situation is even worse that stock, and that it isn't just a case of a higher lift.

Glenn

[image: View Post]rdguy, on 14 June 2011 - 01:33 PM, said:

Oops :blush: We were having exactly this conversation with Andrea at TMac, and I didn't see a name, and, uh...

Glenn


Really, we were. It's why I happened to have a drawing handy for my idea.

How about sticking a pipe on the end of it? You could just take it off...
The old trick if you just have a small wrench and need a breaker bar.

Then you could do what I did. Pizza and Beer. Gain about 30 lbs. and that should fix you right up.