6th Gen brake bleed issue

2002 VFR800 non-ABS.

I have the FSM and have bled the brakes according to that procedure several times. I still have occasionally spongy brakes.
I have access to a hand vacuum pump to allow bleeding the distribution blocks.

The one thing I can't do, is bleed the right-side distribution block as it doesn't have a bleed port where the FSM claims there should be one.

If I ride using only the front brake lever, things behave better than if I use the rear pedal as well.
Also, putting my wife on the back seems to make things worse.

any thoughts/comments/suggestions?

I bled my brakes recently w/o the use of vacuum.
I bought one, but ended up not using it, since it really isn't needed.
First, you follow the use owner manual to the tee.
The trick is to attach a length of transparent tubing to the bleeder and unscrew the bleeder just enough to let the fluid/air out under some pressure.  Unscrew too much and air will seep back in through the threads.

[image: View Post]Rice, on 26 July 2011 - 04:01 PM, said:

I bled my brakes recently w/o the use of vacuum.
I bought one, but ended up not using it, since it really isn't needed.
First, you follow the use owner manual to the tee.
The trick is to attach a length of transparent tubing to the bleeder and unscrew the bleeder just enough to let the fluid/air out under some pressure.  Unscrew too much and air will seep back in through the threads.
I don't know of anyway to get the distribution blocks pressurized so that they'll push fluid/air out. Thus the vacuum pump.

I've been pondering scrapping the LBS system anyway, this may be the ideal time to do that.

Pump lever.  The. Best way to get the entire system pressurized.  I don,t believe that manual calls for vacuum pump either, although I could be wrong.

In lieu of vac bleeding just let gravity do the work for you. Place a tube on whatever bleed valve that you want to bleed,crack that valve open and add brake fluid to the master cylinder as the brake fluid drains from that system. Speed bleeders are a blessing also.
Minute particles of air gets trapped at all of the banjo bolts on these bikes-thus spongy brake feel. There are two things that will correct this. With the system totally closed,zip tie the brake lever as close to the handle bar as you can and keep it that way overnight. Gently tap at every banjo bolt(with a SOFT mallet) starting at the master cylinder and working your way down the system to every down- stream banjo bolt. Bleed the system again and you will find that some air had been trapped around the banjo bolts and have been dislodged by you tapping on the bolts. It only takes a bit of air the size of a match head to give you spongy brakes. The vfr seems to be more of a pain than most bikes about this.
I do not have as much of a  problem with this after I installed speed bleeders on the bike. Good luck.

Non-ABS models do not have a bleed port on the right-hand side block, that's only for ABS bikes.

Your best bet to get all the air out is a vacuum pump coupled with pumping the pedals.  

I also recommend Speed Bleeder nipples.  A full kit for these can be ordered from WireMyBike.com.  I'm a bit busy right now but when I've got some time later I'll tell you all the bits you need from that site (it's the kit plus a couple of extra bleeders).  Total cost about $40 USD.

[image: View Post]Rice, on 26 July 2011 - 05:24 PM, said:

Pump lever.  The. Best way to get the entire system pressurized.  I don,t believe that manual calls for vacuum pump either, although I could be wrong.
My FSM specifically states using a vacuum pump.

I'll have to mess with it some more. the weird thing is that it comes and goes. Sometimes it'll just about stoppy with a squeeze, and other times the lever nearly hits the throttle with very little braking unless I pump it.

Thanks for the tips

[image: View Post]tx_vfr, on 27 July 2011 - 08:35 AM, said:

[image: View Post]Rice, on 26 July 2011 - 05:24 PM, said:

Pump lever.  The. Best way to get the entire system pressurized.  I don,t believe that manual calls for vacuum pump either, although I could be wrong.
My FSM specifically states using a vacuum pump.

I'll have to mess with it some more. the weird thing is that it comes and goes. Sometimes it'll just about stoppy with a squeeze, and other times the lever nearly hits the throttle with very little braking unless I pump it.

Thanks for the tips

Sounds like you need to clean your calipers and pistons - your pistons are sticking. Also, the FSM is wrong on the bleed order. You need to bleed the proportion valve and both of the rear caliper points with the rear brake pedal.

Did you remove the rear caliper and set it on top of the rotor like the book says?

The vacuum pump is nice for getting fluid into the lines, but you'll get a much firmer lever feel by bleeding with the lever.

Tapping on the lines is a great way to loosen trapped bubbles, however, you should start tapping at the caliper, not at the master.

Did you run the fluid out of the front master at any time? If so, there could be air trapped at the master banjo and you'll need to "burp" it. To do this you need to remove the master from the bar and tip it slightly to make the actual reservoir the high point instead of the banjo. Then very gently and only slightly squeeze the lever to release the air bubbles into the reservoir.

Speed Bleeders make things very easy(once they've been properly installed).

[image: View Post]tx_vfr, on 27 July 2011 - 08:35 AM, said:

[image: View Post]Rice, on 26 July 2011 - 05:24 PM, said:

Pump lever.  The. Best way to get the entire system pressurized.  I don,t believe that manual calls for vacuum pump either, although I could be wrong.
My FSM specifically states using a vacuum pump.

I'll have to mess with it some more. the weird thing is that it comes and goes. Sometimes it'll just about stoppy with a squeeze, and other times the lever nearly hits the throttle with very little braking unless I pump it.

Thanks for the tips
I have an ABS version and bought MightyVac specifically for the task - I was having major anxiety about bleeding brakes on that thing...
After trying the vac, I didn't have great confidence in it for some reason.  Could be my stellar mechanical abilities at fault here.  So I ended up doing it all the old way and my levers feel perfectly firm after I was done.  There was nothing to it in retrospect.
Just make sure that you unbolt the L/F caliper and tilt it as per the manual and follow the specified sequence.  Also, as suggested, make sure to top off the M/C.
Take your time and get all the fluid through the system.

Perhaps you can leave her at home?

Something I had to do with mine when I was doing a Brake Flush was unbolt the Front Brake Resivoir from the Clipons and tilt it at an angle so the Banjo Bolt was at the bottom. I had to evacuate about half the fluid out first to prevent fluid from getting on the Gas Tank / Front Fender area. Also, I just unscrewed the two Bleeder valves, ran clear tubes into some pans, pulled up a Folding Chair, poped a few cold ones while I sat there and gravity bled the entire thing. Then from there I went business as usual and had the Wife squeeze the handle a few times to pressurize and I bled the system. Oh, I didn't use the Center Stand. I had it on the Kickstand so it gave a better angle for the Banjo Bolt.

Not exactly the correct procedure, but it worked for me. Just be careful you don't get Brake Fluid on any painted surfaces. Be patient, take your time, and it should go well.   :fing02:

[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 27 July 2011 - 08:54 AM, said:

Sounds like you need to clean your calipers and pistons - your pistons are sticking. Also, the FSM is wrong on the bleed order. You need to bleed the proportion valve and both of the rear caliper points with the rear brake pedal.

Did you remove the rear caliper and set it on top of the rotor like the book says?

The vacuum pump is nice for getting fluid into the lines, but you'll get a much firmer lever feel by bleeding with the lever.

Tapping on the lines is a great way to loosen trapped bubbles, however, you should start tapping at the caliper, not at the master.

Did you run the fluid out of the front master at any time? If so, there could be air trapped at the master banjo and you'll need to "burp" it. To do this you need to remove the master from the bar and tip it slightly to make the actual reservoir the high point instead of the banjo. Then very gently and only slightly squeeze the lever to release the air bubbles into the reservoir.

Speed Bleeders make things very easy(once they've been properly installed).
I did not remove the rear caliper.
From my understanding of the FSM, and its pretty un-clear, you remove/tilt the LF caliper. I did that, but didn't remove the rear caliper.

I did not run either front or rear MCs out of fluid.
I've bled the brakes w/o the vacuum pump in the past and while it helped, it didn't solve the issue. Was hoping a little extra help would do the trick.

[image: View Post]Goosechef, on 27 July 2011 - 11:20 AM, said:

Perhaps you can leave her at home?
Lost me on that one...

[image: View Post]Infidel, on 27 July 2011 - 12:30 PM, said:

Just be careful you don't get Brake Fluid on any painted surfaces.
They really should market brake fluid as paint stripper. Works wonders!

This whole LBS thing is rather a pain. I understand the concept and potential need, but I don't see the need on a VFR. GL I understand, but even then, its a royal pain.

Need to go grab some more brake fluid and give it another go.

[image: View Post]tx_vfr, on 27 July 2011 - 02:16 PM, said:

[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 27 July 2011 - 08:54 AM, said:

Sounds like you need to clean your calipers and pistons - your pistons are sticking. Also, the FSM is wrong on the bleed order. You need to bleed the proportion valve and both of the rear caliper points with the rear brake pedal.

Did you remove the rear caliper and set it on top of the rotor like the book says?

The vacuum pump is nice for getting fluid into the lines, but you'll get a much firmer lever feel by bleeding with the lever.

Tapping on the lines is a great way to loosen trapped bubbles, however, you should start tapping at the caliper, not at the master.

Did you run the fluid out of the front master at any time? If so, there could be air trapped at the master banjo and you'll need to "burp" it. To do this you need to remove the master from the bar and tip it slightly to make the actual reservoir the high point instead of the banjo. Then very gently and only slightly squeeze the lever to release the air bubbles into the reservoir.

Speed Bleeders make things very easy(once they've been properly installed).
I did not remove the rear caliper.
From my understanding of the FSM, and its pretty un-clear, you remove/tilt the LF caliper. I did that, but didn't remove the rear caliper.

I did not run either front or rear MCs out of fluid.
I've bled the brakes w/o the vacuum pump in the past and while it helped, it didn't solve the issue. Was hoping a little extra help would do the trick.

[image: View Post]Goosechef, on 27 July 2011 - 11:20 AM, said:

Perhaps you can leave her at home?
Lost me on that one...

You said it is worse with your wife on the back.  Perhaps leaving her at home would help.   :laughing6-hehe:

I got my bike last August, so I haven't had the privilege of bleeding the brakes yet. However, every time I see a thread on bleeding VFR brakes there seems to be a lot of confusion......for us noobs I should say. Is there an easy to understand how-to somewhere that shows this step by step for a bike with ABS? Thanks.

[image: View Post]Goosechef, on 27 July 2011 - 03:26 PM, said:

You said it is worse with your wife on the back.  Perhaps leaving her at home would help.   :laughing6-hehe:
I got you now!   :laughing6-hehe: She wont' like that much, but then I guess that's why I'm building a GL1100A

[image: View Post]spaceman, on 27 July 2011 - 04:55 PM, said:

I got my bike last August, so I haven't had the privilege of bleeding the brakes yet. However, every time I see a thread on bleeding VFR brakes there seems to be a lot of confusion......for us noobs I should say. Is there an easy to understand how-to somewhere that shows this step by step for a bike with ABS? Thanks.
I would direct you to the Factory Service Manual (FSM) but on this issue its not very clear. That said, having a FSM is a good idea if you want to do any wrenching yourself.
Check the how-to section and see if there's something there on it.

I've never bothered pumping the little secondary master up front.

I just do the fronts, then the rears, then the middle at the gas tank. Then the clutch. Sorry the noobs have issues, it's just like bleeding any other brake system. Just takes a bit more effort!

Air doesn't flow down, it flows up, that's why you have to move the rear caliper up on the rotor!

Many years ago I helped a mate bleed up a disc brake front end on an early Holden car.
Took us 5 hours of "up", "down", "pump" - scratch heads, curse, consult FSM (old as the car), go buy vaccum thingy, lunch, dealing with our frustrations, garage fever (quelled by beer)
With about 30 minutes of sunlight, we swapped calipers so the bleeders were at top.   :beatdeadhorse:

You will get no where bleeding the caliper on the mount.
Instead of filling up the brake caliper from below and expelling air from the top, all you are doing is flushing the caliper cavity, not filling it.

Looks like the 1200 rear does not require total caliper removal, maybe just hinged to the right angle.

[image: View Post]tx_vfr, on 27 July 2011 - 05:34 PM, said:

I would direct you to the Factory Service Manual (FSM) but on this issue its not very clear. That said, having a FSM is a good idea if you want to do any wrenching yourself.
Check the how-to section and see if there's something there on it.

I do have the FSM, but there seems to be some ambiguity with that as well. I haven't read through the brake section yet, I'm just going by what I have read in this thread and others.

Great info on this thread!!! :)

Speed bleeder,  ghetto version (DIY one way valve for cents)

[image: View Post]pukkita, on 04 August 2011 - 07:48 AM, said:

Great info on this thread!!! :)

Speed bleeder,  ghetto version (DIY one way valve for cents)
Just for giggles, I might try this balloon bleeder trick on the clutch. Thanks for the tip and URL!