My pops is from the old skool. Not that there is any thing wrong with that. But he is quite unwilling to accept change. He started riding when he was 14...he's 53 now, I'm 28. He just got back into riding and when he did, he got me into it. His last bike, before taking a 10yr hiatus, was a 75 Kz900. His new bike is a ZRX 1200.
Back in the day, the said the racers never stuck their knees out. He said that they really don't "need" to do it. He says it's more a "saftey" thing.
I've tried to argue the point. It's all about getting the weight where it the most effective. I'd think he'd understand...he used to race motocross and was pretty damn good...It's body english.
Can anyone explain the reason for knee dragging and why the riders of yesteryear didn'd do it?
From my (limited) knowledge... the physics behind it is this. At speed X... if your body is straight up and down on the bike, i.e. the center of gravity is on the bike... that will give you lean angle of Y to take that turn.
Now if you hang off the bike, that puts the center of gravity closer to the center of turn. If you take that same turn at the exact same speed x, it will require LESS lean angle from the bike.
Now that you require less lean angle you can increase your speed through that turn because you have more lean angle available... and so on...
There are a ton of great books out there explaining all of this.
With that being said, I have been passed by many-a-ol-timer who stayed upright on the bike and were haulin butt. I love seeing that.
Probably the main reason it wasn't done in the old days is tire technology. Just my guess. Bikes are so much faster now, and tires grip so much better now. I know that it helps me. At Jennings GP, there are two turns that are taken flat out coming out of a tight turn. I keep my butt off the seat coming out of the tight turn but pull my knee up, grab an upshift, then drop the knee down again to get through the turn. I can really feel that pulling the bike down into the turn. Sitting upright, like I used to, I was much slower. It was a bit scarey, because I was taller in the saddle, and the lean angle felt steep. Plus it looks cooler like this! Kev :blues:
I'm not old enough to have much history on the subject. But from my limited study of riding technique, I've studied quite a few photos of some of the racers from years back.
They didn't stick thier knees out or really even hang off. I can't really tell you why specifically. My guess is that the techniques we see today simply hadn't been tried back then. It's hard for me to imagine a situation where hanging off wouldn't help go faster on a road course.
You can hang off with out dragging your knee, some racers today don't actually drag the knee, though they are just hovering right there above the ground.
What I do know is they didn't have knee pucks at all. When a few of the guys figured out getting thier knees down, they started taping thier leathers around the knees with a bunch of duct tape.
I don't thing knee dragging is really a "safety" thing. More like a gauge, most racers will say they use it as a gauge to help measure lean angle. Though a few will claim to have saved the bike in a turn with thier knee.
Regardless of the reasons why you "drag a knee", it obviously works, and it's not just some "Fad" that's gonna pass by the way side.
I think that the original knee-draggers were ice racers in Scandinavia. When one of them (Jarno Saarinen) moved over to road racing, he brought the technique with him. People like Kenny Roberts (sr.) that he raced with picked up on the technique and started the whole duct tape/more duct tape/anything that would last a bit longer/gen-u-wine knee puck progression. At least I THINK that was the progresion. I think that when racers started sllding consistently and frequently, the touch of the knee allowed for fine tuning the slide in much the same way a foot does in dirt track. The good guys don't seem to rely on it as a support (normally).
the touch of the knee allowed for fine tuning the slide in much the same way a foot does in dirt track. The good guys don't seem to rely on it as a support (normally).
In the level one class of Keith Code's Learning Curves. Keith himself told the class it was used to gauge your lean angle and nothing more. The less you push your knee out the lower you are. He said it aids nothing more than that. If you watch the GP races with on bike cameras most of the guys put the puck down than just barelly graze the pavement through the corner. Just what I have heard and seen. I still havent draged a knee and I am only 30
Hanging off and dragging knees are two unrelated subjects. You don't need either one to do the other. Draggin knees has nothing to do with shifting your CG, hangin off does. You can go through a corner just as fast while hangin off and keeping your knee tucked in the fairing.
Wind tunnell tersting has proven that getting your knee out in the wind also helps the bike get around the corner one hellva lot more stabile.
I have never got a knee down.
Never.
In 28 odd years of riding and ride days etc.
I get over taken heaps of times but not usually by a peer and have caught up with and over taken my fair share of badly ridden 'sports' bikes.
As someone else said above it is more to do with wieght transfer, centre of balance, practice and attending training days, than actually getting a knee down.
For crying out loud I've seen some long legged bloke virtually get a knee down in a straight line!!!
They didn't drag knees before King Kenny, because nobody else thought of it. It is just to gage how close you are to the ground and maybe to help keep the front end up if it starts to slide. I hang off all the time, but don't stick my knee down much on the street. I came within inches of touching down the last track day. I was leaned over plenty, but just couldn't get my brain to let me stick that leg out just a little further. I was still passing most everybody in the slow group. It just might be time for the fast group next time. A VFR passed me, but couldn't make it stick for long. I love liter class HP. :angry:
I used to be (and still, rarely, am) a road cyclist and racer. When I was racing criteriums (small courses with multiple tight turns), I learned to drop the inside knee into the turn, along with a subtler inside shoulder.
The theory, as explained to me, is that it drops your center of gravity into the center of the turn, countering centripetal force and allowing less lean angle at the contact patch.
As I moved into motorcycle street riding, I kept the technique. I don't drop so much knee now ( I still do on racing bicycles). I just tend to slide my pelvis to the inner edge and knee only a couple of inches inward.
I've never gotten my knee down and sliding, because my riding gear doesn't have puck placement. I'd like to try for it on a track, though. Getting that far down was hard with the 35 inch seat height of the BMW R100GS/ParisDakar I've been riding for the last ten years.
In the right situation I am able to drag my knees. It has been my expierence that it is mainly to judge your lean angle. I can lean the bike just as far and not drag a knee but you have no idea how far over you really are. Also your balance is better with your knee down. It seems a little less fatiguing when you are dragging a knee because you have to think about things less. I can judge my lean angle and how far I have to go before I max out the tires. When my knee is dragging and my toe slider is dragging I know I have leaned it all the way.
Actually, an old school racer named Jarno Saarinen pioneered the knee down tecnique and king kenny adopted it after learning it helped him in the corners. Much to the chagrin of his crew chief at the time...
afterburn, Jun 8 2004, 01:44 PMHanging off and dragging knees are two unrelated subjects. You don't need either one to do the other. Draggin knees has nothing to do with shifting your CG, hangin off does. You can go through a corner just as fast while hangin off and keeping your knee tucked in the fairing.
Now here is a good answer. A prime example of this is the riding style of the greatest road racer in world history, The amazing Joey Dunlop. Yes, if you check out his rides, he will drag a knee from time to time. But, for the most part, he is a rider that is fast, smooth and perfect without always touching a knee. He is also from that early generation of riders that didn't drag knees.
Unfortunately, I'll never be able to ask the man why he does or doesn't. But I'll always know he was the best.
The guy with his knee out has shifted his CG more than the guy hanging off the same amount but keeping his knee tucked in...
You can find force diagrams of why it works in many of the advanced riding books.
It is pointless to compare a racer from the past with a current racer. The bikes are faster, the riders themselves are faster. I highly doubt someone could get to the top level of racing today riding with a 30 year old style.
Dragging your knee is not something to worry about on the street though!!!! You will never learn it correctly on the street and it's just dangerous to try. You've got to do it at the track where you can practice the same corners over and over and over again in a controlled environment.
benSV, Mar 3 2005, 04:32 PM Dragging your knee is not something to worry about on the street though!!!!
Amen brother.
I do hang off a bit because I get better front end feel and my front has a tendency to slide, but I have no desire to drag my knee on the street.
If you're dragging knees on the street, you've used up all your cornering safety reserves. There have been plenty of times I've had to brake in a corner and that's not advisable when you've already used up all your tires traction for cornering.
Agree with the last two posts. I hang off to a point, but don't actively try to drag the knees. I like to leave a little reserve room for leaning if I take a corner too hot. Better to get your knee on the ground when you overcook a corner than chop the throttle and get sent airborn. Kneedragging is a great skill to possess, but I'm not sure that I can fully advocate its use on the street.
The reaction of most riders when they first touch down the knee is similiar to touching down the peg; the new sensation startles them and they tend to come right back up. Obviously, the repercussions can be deadly on the street. Better to practice on things like being smooth rather than kneedragging. As others have said, leave it to the track where you can duplicate your results over and over and become more familiar with how the bike (and your knee) feels toward the limits. B)
There's a article in one of the brit mags (Bike TWO Ride) about a racer from the late eighties early nineties who'd drag his elbow. He was featured in a where are they now type column. Hmm, wonder how much reserve is left when your elbow is dragging? :goofy:
VFRBee, Mar 3 2005, 06:35 PMIf you're dragging knees on the street, you've used up all your cornering safety reserves.
Not necessarily. By "hanging off" correctly, i.e. maximizing your technique to gain full mechanical advantage, you are effectively reducing the lean angle the bike is carrying, maintaining a larger tire contact patch......maintaining more traction. You can easily be in a situation with a specific corner that you could potentially drag a knee and not be anywhere near your "cornering safety reserves".
The safety reserve that you spoke about can obviously be "used up" beyond a certain speed.
Also, what Ben said "The guy with his knee out has shifted his CG more than the guy hanging off the same amount but keeping his knee tucked in..." is true.....more weight further to the inside, etc. etc. Works the same with getting your head towards the inside......transfering weight.
If you notice racers when setting up for a corner, not only get their knee out but also sit up from their tuck. Both of these movements will help act as an human air brake aiding in slowing for the approaching corner. As they initiate the corner, the upper body goes down and towards the inside moving the CG, allowing the bike to carry less lean angle, more tire traction, etc.
v4glee, Mar 3 2005, 08:00 PMThere's a article in one of the brit mags (Bike TWO Ride) about a racer from the late eighties early nineties who'd drag his elbow. He was featured in a where are they now type column. Hmm, wonder how much reserve is left when your elbow is dragging? :goofy:
Ben Spies, I think, drags his elbows. I forget who exactly it is, maybe Ben, but definately one of the AMA 600 Supersport guys on a blue bike (Suzi, or Yammi?) drags his elbow to the point that he put sliders on them! A guy called Sixx on the Jennings GP (race track in FL) forum drags his elbows in corners. He's pretty tall, though.
Das Bone, Mar 3 2005, 09:03 PMNot necessarily. By "hanging off" correctly, i.e. maximizing your technique to gain full mechanical advantage, you are effectively reducing the lean angle the bike is carrying, maintaining a larger tire contact patch......maintaining more traction. You can easily be in a situation with a specific corner that you could potentially drag a knee and not be anywhere near your "cornering safety reserves".
The safety reserve that you spoke about can obviously be "used up" beyond a certain speed.
Also, what Ben said "The guy with his knee out has shifted his CG more than the guy hanging off the same amount but keeping his knee tucked in..." is true.....more weight further to the inside, etc. etc. Works the same with getting your head towards the inside......transfering weight.
If you notice racers when setting up for a corner, not only get their knee out but also sit up from their tuck. Both of these movements will help act as an human air brake aiding in slowing for the approaching corner. As they initiate the corner, the upper body goes down and towards the inside moving the CG, allowing the bike to carry less lean angle, more tire traction, etc.
Uh yeah... What he said. Plus it looks cool! At one point last year, I was stuck behind a guy on a RC51 at a track day. Faster bike, right? He was dragging his stupid titianium knee puck sending sparks at me in the right hand turn 9. I could not drag my knee at the time in rights (barely in lefts...). Did I mention he was HOLDING ME UP! He had plenty of reserve, because he was going far too slow. I passed him on the brakes going into turn 13, by the way. :lol: On a sport touring bike! :squid:
VFRbar, Mar 3 2005, 02:54 PMThe reaction of most riders when they first touch down the knee is similiar to touching down the peg; the new sensation startles them and they tend to come right back up. Obviously, the repercussions can be deadly on the street. Better to practice on things like being smooth rather than kneedragging. As others have said, leave it to the track where you can duplicate your results over and over and become more familiar with how the bike (and your knee) feels toward the limits. B)
That is funny. The first time I dragged a peg on the street, I did indeed freak a bit and stand the bike up a bit. I got off my line by like 2ft, but that was almost enough to crash. And I had plenty of peg dragging experience on the track already.
But the first time I dragged my knee it was not like that at all. It was perfectly smooth. I guess it was no big deal after dragging pegs.
Dragging my knee for the first time was WAY more fun than the first time I dragged a peg. When I dragged the peg I was not nearly as smooth and I felt like I had pushed my boundaries in a big way. I was not at all worried when I started getting my knee down as it was at the track and everything just "felt right".
benSV, Mar 5 2005, 03:46 AMThat is funny. The first time I dragged a peg on the street, I did indeed freak a bit and stand the bike up a bit. I got off my line by like 2ft, but that was almost enough to crash. And I had plenty of peg dragging experience on the track already.
But the first time I dragged my knee it was not like that at all. It was perfectly smooth. I guess it was no big deal after dragging pegs.
Dragging my knee for the first time was WAY more fun than the first time I dragged a peg. When I dragged the peg I was not nearly as smooth and I felt like I had pushed my boundaries in a big way. I was not at all worried when I started getting my knee down as it was at the track and everything just "felt right".
Exactly my experience! Pegs dragging mean that hard parts are soon to follow. Knee dragging is just a gauge as to how far you are over. I nearly passed a friend on track on the outside, but the peg hit, and I started to stand the bike up. First time the knee touched, I didn't even flinch.
It is pointless to compare a racer from the past with a current racer. The bikes are faster, the riders themselves are faster. I highly doubt someone could get to the top level of racing today riding with a 30 year old style.
Hold on there shipmate. I sure as heck hope you realize that Mr. Dunlop may have been an old rider with old techniques, but you need to realize he was still winning TTs in the superbike class the year he died. 48 and kicking ass in a style that is probably the most challenging for all of road racing. Anyone with decent skills can go fast on a sterile track, but it takes a master to dominate on the streets and do it for so long.
So, excuse me for arguing, but yes, someone with an old technique could still compete at the top level to today.
Sorry if I sound a little pissed, but you shouldn't go and disrespect a legend without knowing what you are talking about. I think Buffett coined the phrase, "don't talk about the ocean unless you've ever seen it".
Now, after I have gotten off my high horse (yes, I bitch too much so don't take it personal), I am sure you are completely right about knees and center of gravity. I don't know how Dunlop made it work, but he did. And you are completely correct about not trying to learn any of these skills on the street. I think if more folks took your advice on that aspect of riding, there would a lot fewer accidents and incidents out there.
Cheers brother. :beer: I am done whining. :thumbsup: Sorry if I pissed anyone off. :(
If you look at a still pic of racers (Moto GP especially!) in full lean, they aren't really far off the bike. You see them with their knee on the ground, and almost touching the side panel at the same time. The tires and frames allow amazing lean angles in modern racing bikes. They do, however, start the turns by getting off the bike and pulling the bike down.
I don't know what motogp riders you are looking at but in this shot from testing this year at Sepang, I would say The Doctor is hanging off pretty good. He doesn't have that rediculous outrigger knee out thing I see a lot of guys do on the street, but his butt, chest, head and shoulders are all shifted will to the inside. It is true that the bikes in motogp are capable of extreme lean angles so there is less room for hanging off. Also the tires they are using today are much much better at those lean angles than the ones KR and Fast Freddie et al had. (IMG:http://images.motogp.com/multimedia2/328/328286_62676.jpg)
wallypiper, Mar 16 2005, 02:09 PM It is true that the bikes in motogp are capable of extreme lean angles so there is less room for hanging off. Also the tires they are using today are much much better at those lean angles than the ones KR and Fast Freddie et al had.
Hey Wally,
One more thing about MotoGP tahrs. They often use the 16.5" wheels which give a big ass side contact strip for unreal cornering. That is why they went from 17" down to 16.5". The outer circumference is the same. So large side wall results.
End of thread · 29 posts recoveredWayback Machine snapshot 2 May 2005
