I took the bike to another track day last weekend at Spring Mountain Resort in Pahrump, NV. The weather was perfect (low to mid 80s, no humidity, no wind), but the bike would have you think otherwise. It consistently ran in the 240s after a few laps into the session. I even saw 250s (complete with warning lights) on one or two sessions, at which point I'd roll out of it and head straight to the pits. In both instances, the bike puked up a bit of water (I run distilled water and Water Wetter for coolant) once parked.
This is not the first track day where the VFR has run this warm for me, but the other time the outdoor temps were pushing into triple digits. The only differences to the bike since that track day are the addition of a PCIII running a Cozye map, a -1 front sprocket, and an oil change to 50W oil (the shop that did the work insists it's the right thing to do in the hotter SoCal temps. I'd have my doubts, but they are a very reputable and knowledgeable shop).
Still, I don't believe the issue to be something not functioning correctly on the bike. It runs normal temps otherwise, the fan kicks on as it should, etc. I think the problem basically boils down to the age old problem with our bikes just naturally running hot.
So, given that the next track day is just around the corner, are there any quick fixes I can do to get the bike to run a smidge cooler? I seem to recall some people running a fan off a RC51, but I cannot find any info on that now.
I vaguely remember Spring Mountain when I ran it in a cage. It's not particularly tight, so I wouldn't think a different fan would help. My vote is a thermostat that isn't opening all the way. Or something blocking your radiator.
I've heard bad things about water wetter... basically that it's snake oil. I'd run quality antifreeze and make sure you're running synthetic oil. 50w seems way heavy to me and I'm down in Texas where we see much higher temps then you socal folks. 10w-40 synthetic Mobil 1 from Wal-mart.
[image: View Post]jeremy77, on 01 May 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:
I've heard bad things about water wetter... basically that it's snake oil. I'd run quality antifreeze and make sure you're running synthetic oil. 50w seems way heavy to me and I'm down in Texas where we see much higher temps then you socal folks. 10w-40 synthetic Mobil 1 from Wal-mart.
Only problem with running coolant is that the bike regularly sees tracks. While the orgs don't REQUIRE running straight water, they 'highly recommend it' in the event of a wreck. My bigger worry is it starts puking on the track, at which point I definitely don't want coolant in there. FWIW, I don't put much stock in Water Wetter when it comes to dropping running temps, either. I mainly added it to act as an anti-freeze (yes, it can OCCASIONALLY get THAT cold here).
I think I agree with you on the oil thing, though. I've only ever run 40W synthetic (brands vary depending on what Cycle Gear had on sale that day) and don't see why I should change now.
[image: View Post]mk2davis, on 01 May 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:
I vaguely remember Spring Mountain when I ran it in a cage. It's not particularly tight, so I wouldn't think a different fan would help. My vote is a thermostat that isn't opening all the way. Or something blocking your radiator.
We were running the new 2.4mi configuration, so the track was a mix. It's tight for a bit, but there are some decent straights, including the back straight where I would routinely top out 4th gear before having to slow down. Most of it is 2nd or 3rd gear with lots of situations where I had a tough time choosing between winding out 2nd or short-shifting to 3rd. I did a mixture of both with no real differences in terms of the bike's operating temp.
Would a stuck t-stat show at normal riding conditions or idle? Because the bike runs fine when ridden normally. It's only in prolonged runs 'in anger' that I see these issues.
Water wetter does NOT act as an antifreeze. It is a surfactant which reduces the surface tension of the water, and thus reduces localized boiling in the cooling system, such as areas near the upper cylinder wall or exhaust valve.
If your system is burped, yoir fan works correctly, your thermostat tests ok (suspend with thread in a pot of boiling water and observe, there is a spec for how many mm it opens) and your rad cap is holding pressure, then you probably do need to upgrade the oil cooler. It would be the cheapest and easiest mod.
When my rad cap failed, the bike was running hot and boiling into the overflow tank, even with 50/50 coolant and water. The 16 PSI of the rad cap raises the boiling point substantially. Note that the rad cap was not leaking externally, just not holding pressure in the rad.
Something is not right, you should never have the fan switch on while at speed. Most dedicated track bikes don't even have a fan. Certainly not on race bikes. My RC51 stayed well under the fan turn on point at Road Atlanta during a 100 degree track day running plain water. By the way, most of them also complain about the fans and running temps. Same as the VFR crowd. Essentially the same cooling system.
Of the above suggestions, rad cap and be sure there's no trapped air are the easiest (and most likely, IMO). T'stat is a pain just to test. Almost better changing it without testing.
Some tracks/organizations don't allow Engine Ice either. But if they allow coolant, it's ok. Pricey, though!
[image: View Post]Veefer800Canuck, on 01 May 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:
Water wetter does NOT act as an antifreeze. It is a surfactant which reduces the surface tension of the water, and thus reduces localized boiling in the cooling system, such as areas near the upper cylinder wall or exhaust valve.
If your system is burped, yoir fan works correctly, your thermostat tests ok (suspend with thread in a pot of boiling water and observe, there is a spec for how many mm it opens) and your rad cap is holding pressure, then you probably do need to upgrade the oil cooler. It would be the cheapest and easiest mod.
When my rad cap failed, the bike was running hot and boiling into the overflow tank, even with 50/50 coolant and water. The 16 PSI of the rad cap raises the boiling point substantially. Note that the rad cap was not leaking externally, just not holding pressure in the rad.
Interesting. I thought I had read somewhere that Water Wetter acted as an anti-freeze as well. Huh.
Sounds like I may want to just replace the rad cap as preventive maintenance, but I shudder at the idea of touching the t-stat. I've read it's a royal PITA to get to.
Is there an oil cooler from another model (or an aftermarket unit) that's a direct bolt-in for our bike?
[image: View Post]Graves, on 01 May 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:
Your bike would be one cold blooded SOB but have you thought about taking the T-stat out for track days?
I've heard that this can actually have the exact opposite result in some instances because the water/coolant does not stay in the radiators long enough to actually cool down due to the increased flow from the lack of restriction. Plus, again, messing with the t-stat seems like a royal pain.
[image: View Post]KPerham, on 01 May 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:
Something is not right, you should never have the fan switch on while at speed. Most dedicated track bikes don't even have a fan. Certainly not on race bikes. My RC51 stayed well under the fan turn on point at Road Atlanta during a 100 degree track day running plain water. By the way, most of them also complain about the fans and running temps. Same as the VFR crowd. Essentially the same cooling system.
Of the above suggestions, rad cap and be sure there's no trapped air are the easiest (and most likely, IMO). T'stat is a pain just to test. Almost better changing it without testing.
Some tracks/organizations don't allow Engine Ice either. But if they allow coolant, it's ok. Pricey, though!
I'm confused. You say your RC51 didn't ever get hot enough to turn on the fan at Road Atlanta, but then say RC51 guys have the same complaints I do. I can't see how the VFR would NOT get above 220 (thus triggering the fan) in just about any riding condition in warmer weather, let alone being thrashed at a track. Heck, mine'll get hot enough to trigger the fans at idle if you let it sit long enough (depending on the outside temp). Always has.
Yes, do the standard stuff, check to make sure the rads are clear and the fins are not all mashed up, clean the oil cooler too, I know some guys that found bigger oil rads. Check the Thermostat - they tend to fail. You dont have much choice for water wetter you have to use what they allow on the track. The oil though will run hot with 50w! You should be changing it after a long track day anyway cause running it all wfo and reving it to red line will definitely put some engine shavings into the oil, mine looked like I struck gold after my first trackday.
Then if that doesnt seem to work I would check to make sure the water pump is not gunked up or flowing too little. The pc3 map might be a little lean too making it run even hotter. Check your rad cap too it might be gunked up too, a new one that seals up will help, oh and the obvious check the coolant level!
My comment on the RC51 riders was meant in the same vein as VFR. Stop and go, around town, etc. Not sure on VTec, but '99 has one fan that pulls air in. Same as my RC. When moving it pulls air opposite to the flow of air. It's designed to work stopped, so people try reversing the fan direction. Mostly for low speed, stop and go.
Like I said, 100 degrees ambient, water in the rads, on track, no trouble. Side rads do work. Mostly people are trying to bring down normal temps that only seem high. But yours are too high.
I've done a couple track days on my VFR in Florida, some if our other members here have also. It should be able to maintain proper temperature on track.
I dont think the fan will make a difference when running at the track? He is probably topping out every gear and running some very good speed - airflow should not be a problem.
Water wetter says right on the bottle, Does not raise boiling temp of water. So if your high temps are from Boiling then the Engine ice offers the boil over protection.
you can have your cap tested at a auto part store . IMO, you probably wont have to go past those two items.
for track bikes.. and more than one vfr in the DC area..
i take a used thermostat and cut out the middle of it.. basically making it an o ring.. while this works great on carbed bikes.. i havent done it to an FI model for the city yet.
My vote is that the thermostat is stuck half open or your water pump is shot. The thermostat in the VFR is a bypass-type; when it's not fully open coolant can flow around the motor without going through the radiators. When it fully opens, all coolant must pass through the radiators, as driven by the pump. A pump with poor flow can keep a motor cool *most* of the time, but not when the engine is pushed hard.
Anything which restricts or reduces flow will cause overheating. You won't be the first person with a dud water pump.
[image: View Post]Baileyrock, on 01 May 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:
Use Engine ICE instead of water wetter. I use to use ww all the time but was told ICE is a superior product.
I was thinking the same thing. That is what most of the track people use in their bikes here in California.
Have you considered swapping out to an RC51 oil cooler?
What about running a flush through the coolant system to remove possible calcium deposits? Also what about running an engine flush to remove sludge? Sludge could block or reduce oil flow to the oil cooler making it useless.
[image: View Post]kaldek, on 02 May 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:
My vote is that the thermostat is stuck half open or your water pump is shot. The thermostat in the VFR is a bypass-type; when it's not fully open coolant can flow around the motor without going through the radiators. When it fully opens, all coolant must pass through the radiators, as driven by the pump. A pump with poor flow can keep a motor cool *most* of the time, but not when the engine is pushed hard.
Anything which restricts or reduces flow will cause overheating. You won't be the first person with a dud water pump.
Any suggestions on how to determine t-stat issues from water pump issues? The pump's not a cheap unit, so I'd hate to replace it without knowing for sure it's an issue.
Remove your thermostat and suspend it in a pot of water with some dental floss so it is not touching the sides or bottom. Put it on the stove and boil the water.
There is a spec in the factory service manual as to how far the thermostat should open. If it does not meet the spec, replace.
Of course, if you remove it when the bike is cold, and it's already half open, you hand your answer immediately.
[image: View Post]whiteboyslo, on 02 May 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:
Any suggestions on how to determine t-stat issues from water pump issues? The pump's not a cheap unit, so I'd hate to replace it without knowing for sure it's an issue.
You can feel the hose running to the radiator to determine at what point your Tstat is opening and closing. Just be careful not to burn yourself.
[image: View Post]whiteboyslo, on 01 May 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:
OK. Sounds like a complete tear down (what I call it when the fairings have to come off) is in order. My game plan (in order):
1. Pop the rad cap and check fluid levels.
2. Check both radiators and the oil cooler for obvious instructions. Clean accordingly.
3. Perhaps drain and fill the cooling system with Engine Ice? A quick look online suggests it's track friendly, which is my biggest concern.
4. Replace rad cap.
5. Oil change, complete with synthetic 40W oil.
I would recommend doing these one at a time and testing, to determine what caused the problem. Doing them all at once might fix it, but then we'll always be wondering which one fixed it. More information is always better. And it might be a combination of several factors, but that way we'll know.
kaldek gave a good explaination as to why I suspect the T-stat.
As far as the fan, it can only create so much air flow through your radiator, call is 30?mph. It could be 20, it could be 45, it doesn't really matter. Once your forward speed exceeds that the fan doesn't do very much. A fan would be the culprit in stop and go city riding, but I won't not think on the track. Many said this earlier, but I wanted to give an explaination.
I pulled the fairings and started fiddling around. Here's a brief rundown of what I did/observed:
1. Overflow tank was bone dry. This doesn't come as a huge surprise as the bike puked out a lot of fluid after the last session and I had not touched it since. I filled it with distilled water, though admittedly it's a wee bit too full right now per the markings on the side.
2. Fluid level under the cap seemed OK. It wasn't 'to the brim' full, but I only got maybe 4oz of distilled water in before it was overflowing.
3. Per the Honda repair manual procedure for burping the system, I fired the bike up for a couple minutes (rad cap off), then gave it some revs. I didn't time how long I let it idle before starting the revs, but the temp was about 176 when I started. I varied the revs from small blips to prolonged 'holds' at various RPM. Predictably, the system sucked fluid in with each blip at first, but once the t-stat opened (I'm guessing. The fluid gained a ripple) it began gushing out with each blip instead. The were no major bubbles or burps to speak of, only a steady overflow of coolant once the t-stat opened and let the fluid flowing from the pump do its thing. I let it get to an indicated 205, then shut it down and put the cap on. One potentially interesting item: each rev resulted in a white film/foam floating to the surface. It was very small and patchy, and each time I tried to remove some with my finger, it went away. I would assume this has something to do with the Water Wetter. Probably just bubbles for all I know.
4. After a bit, I opened the cap back up and checked the level. It was full to the top of the rad, but the rubber filler neck was empty. I topped it to the brim, put the cap back on, and let it idle. I let it cycle 4 times. As it usually does, the temp would get to 220, at which point the fan would kick on. The temp would drop to 200, the fan would kick off, and the temp would drop 2-3 additional degrees. Then the whole cycle would start again.
5. A visual inspection of the system revealed no leaks and no significant damage to either radiator (maybe 4-5 slightly bent fins on each.....maybe). The oil cooler isn't as pretty, but I wouldn't call it alarming either. Here's a pic:
6. I ordered a new rad cap just for good measure, but I'll try to get the old one checked as well just to have definite answers as to what is going on.
7. No signs of coolant in oil. I'll do a change after I pick up the rad cap.
I called the shop yesterday to get a rough estimate on the cost to replace the t-stat (way too involved of a job for me). We got to talking, and it turns out they do a bit of Power Commander tuning on the side. One theory they wanted to look into was the possibility that the Cozye map may be a bit too lean for my bike in the upper revs. To be honest, I'm not 100% sure how you actually check that without a dyno to simulate a load on the bike, but they do have the sniffers and software to check it out, so I'm giving them a shot. If nothing else, I'll end up with a map a little more dialed in to my bike.
They'll also check the whole thing out, starting with the rad cap (I don't have a tester) and working their way in. So, if they come to the conclusion it needs a t-stat, it'll get done.
[image: View Post]spud786, on 04 May 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:
Just make sure you get a copy of the map after they are done for back up, it will be interesting to see how close your present map is.
My plan was to copy it on to the laptop and save it as soon as I get the bike back. You can do that, right? I barely messed with the PC when I got it, aside from throwing the Cozye map on it.
Picking up the bike Tuesday. The shop said the PC was running pretty lean in the high end. I'll download the file and post it up so we can compare versus the original Cozye file.
I also picked up a new rad cap and some Engine Ice. CycleGear had it on sale.
Got the bike back on the road today with the 'new' map my mechanic created loaded onto the PCIII (USB if it makes any difference). On top of the new map, I also switched the coolant over to Engine Ice, changed the oil back to a blended 40 weight, and put on a new rad cap. Didn't have the time or the energy to make this a full lab experiment by doing one job at a time. Sorry!
Overall, the bike felt real good. Tough to make a call on the temp thing since, again, it only happens at prolonged runs at higher RPMs riding pretty hard (i.e. on a track). The commute's also too short to get an idea of anything worthwhile temp-wise, though I would say the bike seems to run a bit cooler and the temps seem to climb a bit slower once at operating temps (180ish and above). I'll have to find an excuse to get out and ride this weekend in this perfect SoCal weather to have a definitive conclusion.
I was curious as to how much difference there was between the cozye map and the map my mechanic came up with, so I downloaded the map off the bike and started peeking around. Basically he downloaded the map PC recommends for a bike with my mods (MC111-002), but then tweaked the values for the 80% and 100% throttle columns by fattening up the mixture throughout the upper revs. Using the 'Map Compare' feature, it's a pretty stark contrast overall to the cozye map in the upper revs. The cozye runs MUCH leaner. Perhaps he's on to something since the bike does seem to pull harder up top. But, the one downside to all this is the VTEC engagement. Cozye's map has that dialed in butter-smooth, and while this new map isn't as bad as stock, it's nowhere near as refined. As a total stab in the dark, I copied the fuel values from Cozye's map for 6000-7500 RPM (all throttle values) and dropped it into the map my mechanic made. I'll give it a shot tomorrow and report back.
Mike
End of thread · 32 posts recoveredWayback Machine snapshot 18 Jun 2012
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