When To Shift Weight In Corner

As a relatively new rider (18 months, 14K miles,) I am still figuring things out, which in motorcycling has a lot to do with cornering.

For a while now, I have been experimenting with leaning my body more than the bike, to conserve traction.  I am getting to the point where it feels "right" somehow, and I think I am slowly improving overall.

But I have noticed all along that I tend to shift my weight well before I actually tip the bike into the corner by pushing on the bar.  I have wondered if there was anything bad about this, but did not really notice anything.

Last night I was wandering around in my copy of Ienatch's Sport Riding Techniques, and I noticed that he says the timing of the weight shift is critical, and that shifting weight too soon causes the bike to "fade into the corner before you are ready to commit."  And it hit me that a lot of my cornering HAS been that way.

But, unless I missed it, he did not say anything about how to time it.  Just that it should not be too soon or too late.

So what do you say?  Do we shift weight at the same time as tipping the bike in?  Or what?  How would you describe what you do?

Also, when Ienatsch discusses this weight shift stuff, he talks a lot about weight on the pegs, which I dont know if I am actually doing.  I am "rolling" my butt on the seat, and leaning my torso.  But I want to start experimenting with actually transferring weight on the pegs.

Thanks.

The free advice that I (and others) will give you on this subject is worth exactly what you will pay for it. As soon as financially possible you should consider attending the Yamaha Champions School at which Nick (and most of Freddie Spencer's crew) now teach.

That being said the important thing about when to weight the peg is do it late enough that you are not pushing the bike away from the turn to keep it in a straight line while approaching the turn but do it early enough (and smoothly enough) that your weight shift doesn't upset the chassis dynamics.

With the inside peg weighted and the forearms parallel to the road and loosely engaging the bars with a gentle counter-steer the bike will carve right over onto the pegs.

To perform this smoothly you must be able to support your weight shift with your legs and torso - not use your arms to pull yourself over to the side of the bike.

Most new riders choke the bars with so much force that they fight their way through each turn and are scared and exhausted after an hour of twisty roads.

You seem to be beyond that and are progressing very well if you are discussing timing of peg weighting and diagnosing ways to improve your technique.

:1:   What he said.

Also there is an advanced technique that Lee Parks teaches using a slight counter steer in the opposite direction to counter act the weight shift until you are ready to turn the bike.  Again, like mentioned, cornering school is worth gold!  Advice is cheap.  Read "Twist of the Wrist II" by Keith Code...

Good info.

You sound like you are on the right track emoyer. What I would suggest is to 'lead with your shoulder' when cornering, this simply means that as you set up to turn in you move your inside shoulder forward, and the rest of your body will follow, and all the while you are looking as far ahead through the corner as possible. You mention leaning your torso, you could well already be doing what I suggest. This may be enough for the corner depending on speed and other factors. Remember to keep your elbows loose and high, your upper body positioning should be almost entirely managed by your core body muscles, so that your arms are loose and you're not putting undue weight on the bars.

The next step is the actual weight shifting, and this can follow smoothly from the shoulder pointing that you have already initiated - once your shoulder is moving forward and into the corner, it feels very natural to follow it with the knee on the same side. Keep your knee in close to the fairing and simply move it forward along the fairing, towards the indicator. Your opposite thigh will now be taking the weight of your lower body across the flat part of the seat.

Once you have reached the apex of the corner and it's time to get the power on, you can use the power to help get yourself back in the seat - because you are relatively relaxed in your riding position you can now let the bike 'pull away' from you slightly, and as it does so you literally swing yourself back into the seat squarely. And as soon as you have squared up in the seat a bit you can continue with this movement to slide back in the seat as you start to load the seat again with your weight - this helps to load the rear of the bike and improve your traction and drive out of the corner.

I can go pretty hard on both road and dirt bikes, and I only consciously use peg weighting techniques when turning a dirtbike - on a roadbike I don't even think about the pegs, but instead rely on body position and bar inputs.

You'll hear different advice, even from pros.  Most consistent I've read and heard in riding schools is to position yourself before the turn, including to apply some pressure to the outside bar to maintain your line. 

Lee Parks talks about 'loading up' for a quick snap into the turn.  

Keith Code (been a few years since I read his book) talks about turn in speed - ie. quickly getting to your max lean angle.  Combined with the Lee Parks advice, these are somewhat consistent. 

Spend $20-$40 buck and buy these books.  I liked Twist of the Wrist II the best (looks like a cheap text book) but that may be because I read it first. 

Also be very careful with these techniques.  Crisply hitting a turn in point may help set a good line - but simultaneously hitting hidden coal dust/sand/dirt with your front wheel in WV can result in a broken shoulder blade and an ambulance ride :unsure:    

Also you can slide off to the inside of the bike well before you have commenced your turn-in to the corner, this is probably not a bad idea to try out because you can get the feel of being off the bike in the corner without upsetting its balance by shifting your body while *in* the corner. Practise on the centre stand at home, moving off each side of the bike and holding position as though you are approaching a corner. It's a useful technique for a road you know, because by setting up prior to the corner you can start thinking about your exit, especially useful when you know the corner leads straight into another corner, so you can be thinking one corner ahead as such...

The Lee Parks Total Control school was amazing.  It's on thing to read about it (which I did over and over and over), but another things to have the man himself telling you how to improve.  By the end of the day, the students were telling the instructors what we doing wrong at the end of each practice.  I think this is an important step which demonstrates we learned what we are supposed to do, not just what not to do.

Back to your OP, Lee Parks did teach to countersteer in order to balance out your weight transfer before the turn.  You transfer your weight before the turn so to not disrupt the bike with your weight transfer during a turn.  As riding skill improves, the transfer should happen closer to turn in point.

In real life, I have been noticing that I often start my turn in too early.  It's natural, and it's wrong.  Is it because I transfer weight too early?  I dunno.  I do know that if I focus on my turn in point more with discipline, I can fix it.

Hope this helps.

The one thing that I'm sure all the rider courses will agree on, shifting your weight while in a turn is not recommended. So depending on what works best for you to setup your turn is probably going to take some time to work out. However, I think the thing to work out first is more when you turn (i.e. Finding the apex) and where you are looking while in the turn (i.e. Looking at the exit point). Once you get these two down, then the hanging off portion will start to fall into place. I say this because these two items are always present at any speed and you don't always have the need to "hang off' your bike to make every turn. YMMV

That being said, I just completed the Lee Parks course back in mid-May (same class as mk2davis actually) and can tell you that it would be something you would get a lot out of. But like most "advanced" rider courses, in order to take them, you have to meet a minimum prerequisite, for Lee's class (1 year of riding experience or a minimum of 3,000 miles. For those with less than 2 years it is recommended to take the ERC first, though not required.). I also took the Keith Code California Super Bike School back in the late 90's and can say that in either class you'll learn a LOT. However, if I was to do them all over again, I think I would have liked to do the Park's school first.

I have been riding for ~30 years and I have found, like with most things in life, there's always something new to learn, or in some cases, some bad habits to "unlearn". With that, here are a few books you might want to grab...

I think all but the Twist of the Wrist II book are available for electronic readers.

'Proficient Motorcycling' by David Hough

'More Proficient Motorcycling' by David Hough

'Total Control' by Lee Parks

'Twist of the Wrist' by Keith Code

'Twist of the Wrist II' by Keith Code

I've only been riding for 16 years (and still learning) so many here have double or more years experience than me, but I'll say the same thing: go to a professional riding school.

Asking when to shift weight on a forum is fine, but instruction should come with application in a controlled environment.

Good luck.

Also there is an advanced technique that Lee Parks teaches using a slight counter steer in the opposite direction to counter act the weight shift until you are ready to turn the bike.  Again, like mentioned, cornering school is worth gold!  Advice is cheap.  Read "Twist of the Wrist II" by Keith Code...

Video is good for illustration purposes... Forgive the cheeses acting.

Thank you everyone for all your input.  You have given me a lot to think about.  It will take time to digest everything and to experiment.  But I am looking forward to it.

I do hope to do a riding school sometime.

I have both of the Proficient Motorcycling books (is his last name pronounced "huff" or "hoe"?).  I will try to check out Total Control and the TOTW video also.

Thanks again.

Thank you everyone for all your input.  You have given me a lot to think about.  It will take time to digest everything and to experiment.  But I am looking forward to it.

I do hope to do a riding school sometime.

I have both of the Proficient Motorcycling books (is his last name pronounced "huff" or "hoe"?).  I will try to check out Total Control and the TOTW video also.

Thanks again.

It's pronounced "Huff", like "rough" but with an H, at least that is what I remember reading. Good luck with your experimenting, just remember to ATGATT!

For many years I shifted weight before turn in but recently I have experimented with shifting at the point of turn in with great results and it is now becoming natural. I feel like it has taken my cornering to the next level.

Nick is the dude. He told me to move the butt over in anticipation of the corner, then to sit up to brake into the corner all the way to the apex, slowly dropping the head and shoulders to their lowest at the apex as all weight shifts to the inside peg. Exit is a slow unwinding of the above, lifting the bike away from the lowered body, letting it straighten and accelerate before shifting the body weight back up to the seat. He said you almost never sit on the seat, but remain in transition, either staying put with the butt off the same side if the next corner is the same, or being ready to swap over to the other side. Stay on the balls of the feet. Highly recommend classes at a track day.