Waterless Coolant

Site says for MX, trial and enduro bikes but...

http://www.aviasport.com/Pagina_1573.aspx

-40° up to 180°... never requiring replacement... Too good to be true?

I guess Jay likes it .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=t7PykrgzWPQ#t=21

375 degree boiling point .

Low pressure .

I just got done reading up on this coolant and it looks very promising. Jay Leno even endorses it. I may switch the VFR over to it on the next flush.

http://www.evanscooling.com/

The coolant is supposed to last the lifetime of the vehicle. If any repairs are done that require the cooling system be drained, save the coolant and reuse it.

The prep fluid can also be reused on other vehicles. I would likely drain any old conventional antifreeze, flush with a descaling solution and distilled water, drain that and then add the prep fluid, drain and save the prep fluid for the next vehicle, and add the new waterless coolant.

Note that the "Powersports Coolant" and the "High Performance Coolant" are the same product (according to the data sheets, but they are a different color), they just come in 64 or 128 fluid ounce containers.

Just wondering if it's compatible w the VFR... Workshop manual says 50:50 high-quality ethylene glycol : distilled water.

Auspanglish

Just wondering if it's compatible w the VFR... Workshop manual says 50:50 high-quality ethylene glycol : distilled water.

In the video they state it is better for motorcycles then 50:50 .

Switchblade

Auspanglish

Just wondering if it's compatible w the VFR... Workshop manual says 50:50 high-quality ethylene glycol : distilled water.

In the video they state it is better for motorcycles then 50:50 .

If it is in the video it must be true... :goofy:

Rush2112

Switchblade

Auspanglish

Just wondering if it's compatible w the VFR... Workshop manual says 50:50 high-quality ethylene glycol : distilled water.

In the video they state it is better for motorcycles then 50:50 .

If it is in the video it must be true... :goofy:

Good point .

I'd have to wonder if it is suitable for the non-riding part of our year up here in frozen tundra land.

Someone hurry up and try this.

My only concern is what if it works too well it terms of conducting thermal energy ... these engines are designed to operate within certain temperature ranges. If it runs cooler I wonder if that would result in new carbon deposits and other gunk ... ?

Also, as MaxSwell pointed out, would it work up here in the Great White North for early / late season riding when we're in sub-freezing temperatures.

Just realize, this probably does work, but nothing is as good as water for disippating heat- and our V4's do run hot. Expect to see some temperature increase if you use this. If you read carefully, this is acknowledged on the website.

Also, I'm not sure what happens with this if you ever intend to do a track day- my local track requires water only (water wetter is OK) and so this is a consideration for the few of us who may run our VFR's on a track.

EDIT: Looked up the specific heat for the Evans coolant on their MSDS, it's only 60% that of water. Our VFR's will very likely run much hotter oil temps with this stuff.

I have had waterless coolant in my 2002 VFR800 for 6 months now and it has been great for the hot climate in Australia. I can not confirm how it would operate in sub zero climates as here in Sydney the temp never drops below 8 degrees centigrade, however it is rated to -54 degrees centigrade. The product I used is made by an Australian company called Liquid Intelligence (see link http://liquidintelligence.com.au/products/motorcycle-super-waterless-coolant).

Prior to using it I also used their other product for flushing the system which completely removed all scaling and build of crud that had built up over 13 years on all aluminium surfaces of the internals of the cooling system (See link http://liquidintelligence.com.au/products/engine-cooling-system-cleaning-kit)I could not believe how much crud came out of the bike whilst completing this process.

On using both products I can state that my cooling system now operates cooler than it did before. As the product does not boil until it reaches 190 degrees centigrade the coolant is continually in contact with all surfaces in the cooling system. The webpage for Liquid Intelligence has a number of videos showing antifreeze and waterless coolant being heated on a hot plate where you can visually see the antifreeze boiling away and the liquid coolant sitting on the hot plate as a puddle.

The other great thing about this product is that it has no ill effects on rubber, silicon, brass, copper, aluminium or cast ion and therefore can be used in any vehicle and once installed does not have to be changed for the life of the vehicle.

Thanks, Marooncobra!

I might have to do a little more research on this stuff ... might be a good alternative.

Marooncobra

I have had waterless coolant in my 2002 VFR800 for 6 months now and it has been great for the hot climate in Australia. I can not confirm how it would operate in sub zero climates as here in Sydney the temp never drops below 8 degrees centigrade, however it is rated to -54 degrees centigrade. The product I used is made by an Australian company called Liquid Intelligence (see link http://liquidintelligence.com.au/products/motorcycle-super-waterless-coolant).

Prior to using it I also used their other product for flushing the system which completely removed all scaling and build of crud that had built up over 13 years on all aluminium surfaces of the internals of the cooling system (See link http://liquidintelligence.com.au/products/engine-cooling-system-cleaning-kit)I could not believe how much crud came out of the bike whilst completing this process.

On using both products I can state that my cooling system now operates cooler than it did before. As the product does not boil until it reaches 190 degrees centigrade the coolant is continually in contact with all surfaces in the cooling system. The webpage for Liquid Intelligence has a number of videos showing antifreeze and waterless coolant being heated on a hot plate where you can visually see the antifreeze boiling away and the liquid coolant sitting on the hot plate as a puddle.

The other great thing about this product is that it has no ill effects on rubber, silicon, brass, copper, aluminium or cast ion and therefore can be used in any vehicle and once installed does not have to be changed for the life of the vehicle.

I'm glad this is working well for you and cleaning out the coolant system will help any coolant work better... even the old 50:50 mix. As Shinigami pointed out, water has one of the best properties on Earth of a liquid for absorbing and releasing heat (heat capacity or thermal capacity); the problems with using water in our coolant systems is that it boils at a relatively low temperature and it doesn't prevent corrosion... both issues are addressed by mixing 50:50 distilled water with an approved anti-freeze.

The Evans Waterless Coolant originally mentioned in this thread has a specific heat capacity 37% lower (by mass) than water and thermal conductivity 55% lower than water. It is important for our engine coolant to absorb heat from the engine and release it at the radiator. Since the specific heat capacity and the thermal conductivity of the waterless coolant is lower than water less heat is transferred to the coolant for the same amount of contact time and differential temperature than is transferred to water; because of this, more heat can be retained in the engine metal and oil that should have been transferred to the coolant and your coolant can run at a lower temp... but your internal engine temp could actually be higher. A more accurate measure of the cooling effectiveness of this product would be your oil temps with conventional coolant mix and comparing after changing to the waterless coolant.

The sales video showing anti-freeze boiling in a pan doesn't reflect what happens in our cooling systems. Our systems are under pressure as they heat up and this increases the boiling point of all liquids. IIRC, water at 15 psi boils at ~240F (115C); this number is even higher when mixed properly with approved anti-freeze. Granted, the higher boiling point of the waterless coolant keeps the pressure of the system down, but neither of these things helps the waterless coolant cool the engine better.

NOTE: I checked a little further and the Evans coolant is more dense than water by ~11%, so... it'll make your bike heavier :goofy:

Rush2112

As Shinigami pointed out, water has one of the best properties on Earth of a liquid for absorbing and releasing heat

It's also the worlds best solvent ... given enough time and / or pressure, it will dissolve anything. :)

JNBarrett

Rush2112

As Shinigami pointed out, water has one of the best properties on Earth of a liquid for absorbing and releasing heat

It's also the worlds best solvent ... given enough time and / or pressure, it will dissolve anything. :)

Universal solvent... water, what would we do without it!

Rush2112

JNBarrett

Rush2112

As Shinigami pointed out, water has one of the best properties on Earth of a liquid for absorbing and releasing heat

It's also the worlds best solvent ... given enough time and / or pressure, it will dissolve anything. :)

Universal solvent... water, what would we do without it!

And were not making anymore.

H2O that is.

This stuff is not new. It's been around for ages. And so has the hype...

Ciao,

JNBarrett

Someone hurry up and try this.

My only concern is what if it works too well it terms of conducting thermal energy ... these engines are designed to operate within certain temperature ranges. If it runs cooler I wonder if that would result in new carbon deposits and other gunk ... ?

Also, as MaxSwell pointed out, would it work up here in the Great White North for early / late season riding when we're in sub-freezing temperatures.

LOL at a VFR running too cold.

CandyRedRC46

LOL at a VFR running too cold.

Right? ;)

... that said ... entirely possible this week here in the middle of Canuckistan. It's -30F with the Windchill tonight. :(

Rush, did you check the thermal properties of anti freeze ?

It's not water, it is heavier, it has less heat carrying capacity & is 50% by volume in a 50/50 mix !

Just did a quick search & found this http://www.dow.com/heattrans/pdfs/DispellingTheMyths.pdf

Not promoting anything, but just comparing apples with apples 50/50 is NOT water so should be taken into account. All the waterless coolants I heard of claim lower operating temperatures at the cylinder wall ! Due to there resistance to boiling.

If you imagine that the cylinder wall is much hotter than the coolant temp due to thermal gradiant & that every other molecule in contact with the cylinder wall or head passage is water & it wants to turn to steam at any point it's sees heat higher than 120c regardless of the other fluids properties. This has been observed under lab conditions, it rapidly condenses back to fluid form as it has nowhere to expand to other than the secondary fluid layer.

Mohawk

Rush, did you check the thermal properties of anti freeze ?

It's not water, it is heavier, it has less heat carrying capacity & is 50% by volume in a 50/50 mix !

Just did a quick search & found this http://www.dow.com/heattrans/pdfs/DispellingTheMyths.pdf

Not promoting anything, but just comparing apples with apples 50/50 is NOT water so should be taken into account. All the waterless coolants I heard of claim lower operating temperatures at the cylinder wall ! Due to there resistance to boiling.

If you imagine that the cylinder wall is much hotter than the coolant temp due to thermal gradiant & that every other molecule in contact with the cylinder wall or head passage is water & it wants to turn to steam at any point it's sees heat higher than 120c regardless of the other fluids properties. This has been observed under lab conditions, it rapidly condenses back to fluid form as it has nowhere to expand to other than the secondary fluid layer.

The transition from liquid to gas phase actually requires significantly more heat energy than just raising the temperature of a liquid... that's why the evaporation from sweating cools you off. So theoretically, the molecules leaping off the cylinder block walls transitioning from liquid to gas, whether anti-freeze or water, pull more heat energy from the metal surface than a molecule not undergoing phase transition. When the gas molecule condenses back into liquid form it releases the same "extra" heat energy it absorbed and removed from the metal cylinder block into the surrounding liquid and allows it to be "removed" from the metal cylinder wall and "released" during passage through the radiator. I propose that this is a more efficient and faster way to pull heat energy from the cylinder wall and that lower coolant temperatures do not necessarily indicate lower operating temperatures inside the engine. I want the heat in my coolant, not in my engine block or oil.

IIRC, water and anti-freeze are completely miscible and can't be separated by heat distillation and that the proper ratio mix changes the physical properties where 50:50 mix actually boils at a higher temperature that either water or anit-freeze alone. This is why you can't distill them apart like you can with water and alcohol... and even water and alcohol have an azeotropic mixture that has the lowest boiling point so the best you can get is a 95% mixture of ethanol to water through heat distillation (190 proof). The 50:50 mix boils at 265F, 17F (9C) higher than 100% water within the pressurized cooling system.

Under certain conditions conventional anti-freeze may not be the best solution... I don't know. If a system is designed to operate at a lower pressure or at higher operating temps than it may make sense. Higher temps do produce more horsepower; but, the trade off is usually reliability and longevity. Our system's are designed to operate over a wide range of conditions under pressure and within temp operating range of 50:50 antifreeze. I don't want my aluminium, alloy, and metal composite engine parts running at higher temps and run the risk of higher temperature differentials and uneven cooling.

I would venture that Dow sells the waterless anti-freeze chemical or the chemicals used to make it... they may even own the patent for the process on how to make it. If someone finds a controlled, unbiased, scientific study I'd love to read it. I stick with my original assertion that the oil temp under identical operating conditions would be the best indicator of the heat being removed by the coolant. Hmmm... now which oil should they use?

PS: The density crack at the end of my other post was a joke... a nerd joke, and apparently not a very good one...

I have to ask what are the issues with traditional antifreeze that people are wanting to mitigate?

Wind chill has absolutely no effect on machines!

Rush2112IIRC, water and anti-freeze are completely miscible and can't be separated by heat distillation and that the proper ratio mix changes the physical properties where 50:50 mix actually boils at a higher temperature that either water or anit-freeze alone. This is why you can't distill them apart like you can with water and alcohol...

As the(?) resident chemist, I have to comment that this is not totally correct. A binary mixture of water and ethylene glycol does not form an azeotrope. Even then azeotropes, such as ethyl alcohol and water can be broken by pressure manipulation. While miscibility does factor somewhat into distillation, what we are primarily concerned with is the vapor pressure relationships of the individual components to the temperature and pressure of the system under separation. Given that antifreeze is not pure ethlyene glycol, this becomes more complex in that you may distill off multiple components of the mixture in one step leading eventually to stepwise separation of all components.

Your comments on phase change are spot on, however, and I would think that this would aid the cooling system in removal of energy from engine components. The high energy molecules that would normally have undergone phase change should almost immediately transfer this energy upon collision with lower energy molecules just outside the boundary layer.

TL/DR - Unimportant scientific triviality, use coolant/water in your bike.

MadScientist

Rush2112IIRC, water and anti-freeze are completely miscible and can't be separated by heat distillation and that the proper ratio mix changes the physical properties where 50:50 mix actually boils at a higher temperature that either water or anit-freeze alone. This is why you can't distill them apart like you can with water and alcohol...

As the(?) resident chemist, I have to comment that this is not totally correct. A binary mixture of water and ethylene glycol does not form an azeotrope. Even then azeotropes, such as ethyl alcohol and water can be broken by pressure manipulation. While miscibility does factor somewhat into distillation, what we are primarily concerned with is the vapor pressure relationships of the individual components to the temperature and pressure of the system under separation. Given that antifreeze is not pure ethlyene glycol, this becomes more complex in that you may distill off multiple components of the mixture in one step leading eventually to stepwise separation of all components.

Your comments on phase change are spot on, however, and I would think that this would aid the cooling system in removal of energy from engine components. The high energy molecules that would normally have undergone phase change should almost immediately transfer this energy upon collision with lower energy molecules just outside the boundary layer.

TL/DR - Unimportant scientific triviality, use coolant/water in your bike.

I stand corrected by our esteemed colleague... for clarity, I was referring to simple heat distillation not vacuum distillation and the azeotrope I was referring to was ethanol+water, not 50:50 anti-freeze+water. I apologize if I caused any confusion or offered misinformation... it's been a long time since chemistry class and I was surprised I remembered the correct term!

The point I was trying to illustrate is that is not as simple as every other molecule being water and it will still behave like water within this system. Under pressure and 50:50 mixed with approved anti-freeze the mixture boils at a higher temperature than water or anti-freeze alone because of the interactions occurring at the molecular level.

A 50:50 mix actually boils at a higher temperature that either water or anti-freeze alone... This statement is correct, right?

Rush2112

A 50:50 mix actually boils at a higher temperature that either water or anti-freeze alone... This statement is correct, right?

No, that would be a high boiling azeotrope. When boiling point of the mixture is either below or above that of both substances alone, then separation becomes difficult and is by definition an azeotrope.

Boiling points of water:

Atmospheric - ~100 degC

@ 14.6 psig - ~120 degC

Boiling point of ethylene glycol

Atmospheric - ~197 degC

@ 14.6 psig - ~224 degC

Edit:

We don't use ethylene glycol directly for a couple reasons - higher viscosity than water, lower thermal conductivity, and lower specific heat. Water alone would be better choice if we didn't need to worry about freezing. The main benefit of using the mixture is the freezing point depression but most automotive coolant formulas also have the added benefits of improved lubrication, corrosion resistance, reduced surface tension, and contaminant "holding".

My view, which has nothing to do with chemistry, is that when somebody selling something uses an inapplicable comparison (e.g., compares coolant to water that is not contained in a pressurised cooling system, compares its high-tech battery with a conventional lead-acid battery type no one uses anymore, uses a silly animated graphic showing forks bulging without a fork brace, etc.), they're engaging in hype. It's a huge turn-off for me, and undermines the credibility of whatever they're saying. If the actual product is that good, everyone will know soon enough. Which was why I mentioned that Evans Waterless Coolant has been around for ages...

Ciao,

MadScientist

Rush2112

A 50:50 mix actually boils at a higher temperature that either water or anti-freeze alone... This statement is correct, right?

No, that would be a high boiling azeotrope. When boiling point of the mixture is either below or above that of both substances alone, then separation becomes difficult and is by definition an azeotrope.

Boiling points of water:

Atmospheric - ~100 degC

@ 14.6 psig - ~120 degC

Boiling point of ethylene glycol

Atmospheric - ~197 degC

@ 14.6 psig - ~224 degC

Edit:

We don't use ethylene glycol directly for a couple reasons - higher viscosity than water, lower thermal conductivity, and lower specific heat. Water alone would be better choice if we didn't need to worry about freezing. The main benefit of using the mixture is the freezing point depression but most automotive coolant formulas also have the added benefits of improved lubrication, corrosion resistance, reduced surface tension, and contaminant "holding".

Great info Doc... Ethylene glycol is a major ingredient of most anti-freeze but not the only one, what's the boiling point of a 50:50 mix of an approved anti-freeze and distiiled water? I remember a graphic on the back of an anti-freeze bottle that showed the boiling point of the different mixture ratios with the peak at 50:50.

...maybe I have it backwards and it was showing the freezing point depression was greatest at 50:50, it is called anti-freeze after all :goofy:

Based on your info the Eth glycol actually boils at a higher temp then the waterless coolant...

Rush2112

Great info Doc... Ethylene glycol is a major ingredient of most anti-freeze but not the only one, what's the boiling point of a 50:50 mix of an approved anti-freeze and distiiled water? I remember a graphic on the back of an anti-freeze bottle that showed the boiling point of the different mixture ratios with the peak at 50:50.

...maybe I have it backwards and it was showing the freezing point depression was greatest at 50:50, it is called anti-freeze after all :goofy:

Based on your info the Eth glycol actually boils at a higher temp then the waterless coolant...

On the freezing point side:

% Ethylene Glycol : Temp

0%: 0 degC

40%: -23.5 degC

50%: -36.8 degC

60%: -52.8 degC

100%: -12.9 degC

The lowest point is around 70% ethylene glycol.

There will be some very minor variation in this because, as you stated, automotive coolant is not pure eth glycol. Additionally, other glycols are often mixed with ethylene glycol or completely replace it in some formulas. Propylene glycol is common and it has roughly similar freezing point performance as ethylene glycol, with greatly reduced toxicity.

Two different brands of Honda compatible anti-freeze in my garage (Zerex & Prestone) both state the 50:50 boiling point as 265F (129C). The Zerex further clarified in the fine print that this temp is in a system with a 15 psi radiator cap... based on this data the 50:50 mix boils at 17F (9C) higher than 100% water within the pressurized cooling system.

Rush2112

Two different brands of Honda compatible anti-freeze in my garage (Zerex & Prestone) both state the 50:50 boiling point as 265F (129C). The Zerex further clarified in the fine print that this temp is in a system with a 15 psi radiator cap... based on this data the 50:50 mix boils at 17F (9C) higher than 100% water within the pressurized cooling system.

Sorry, forgot you asked this too. Yes, that number (129 degC) agrees with my data as well (pure EG and H2O) at 1 atm (14.6 psig). At atmospheric, 50/50 boils at about 108 degC. There is no peak on the boiling point curve, it is roughly a parabolic curve with minimum of 120C at 0% to 224C at 100% EG.

If water is so wonderful and waterless is so bad why does our bikes have an oil cooler. Just saying

jerritt

If water is so wonderful and waterless is so bad why does our bikes have an oil cooler. Just saying

Because oil goes places that water, or antifreeze, or waterless coolant can't... and one of the many functions of oil is the transfer heat away from critical components.

... just saying.

But how can oil cool the engine if there's no water in the oil

Vía the oil cooler radiator maybe?

jerritt

But how can oil cool the engine if there's no water in the oil

:laughing6-hehe: :laughing6-hehe: :laughing6-hehe: :laughing6-hehe: :laughing6-hehe: :laughing6-hehe: :laughing6-hehe: :laughing6-hehe: :laughing6-hehe: :laughing6-hehe: :laughing6-hehe: :laughing6-hehe: :laughing6-hehe: :laughing6-hehe: :laughing6-hehe: :laughing6-hehe: :laughing6-hehe:

For warm places, as spain, VW recomended 42% of G12