I am a bit gutted as I have done less than a 1000 miles in this bike and all of a sudden it has developed a god awful clatter from the engine. It seems to come from the front cylinder, engine will run but doesn't seem to have any power. I only rode it a few hundred yards from the café to the office. I'd just covered my usual 35 mile commute to work and it had ran fine up until then.
I know it is a vague description but I was hoping someone could tell me if there are known problems: I.E. failing Cam Chain tensioners, .
As I said I am gutted as I bought this on the back of the "bullet proof Honda engine" reputation. If the engine is cattled I might just torch it.
if you have a power loss, then its not the typical tensioner noise
while the cct bodies can rattle, there is no power loss associated
TBH, I was so shocked at the racket I rode it gingerly back to my office. I have been out since and it revs clean just noisy. I still may get it recovered just to be on the safe side.
TBH, I was so shocked at the racket I rode it gingerly back to my office. I have been out since and it revs clean just noisy. I still may get it recovered just to be on the safe side.
I think you are being too abrupt at judging your VFR.
Replace the Front CCT immediately. Don't ride it around any more because if you continue to, it WILL break something inside your engine! Don't attempt to diagnose anything at this point and do this FIRST before you ride the bike or even start the bike.
Replacing the front CCT, requires you to remove the Throttle Body, which isn't hard to do but does require lifting tank way out of the way, removing the air box and disconnecting all hoses running into it, and maybe even drain the coolant but not sure about this last part. One CCT is about US$100.
I have replaced the CCT's at 30k miles and again at 60k miles. Its a fairly simple job. The rear only takes a few minutes and the front only takes a few hours. You do not need to remove the throttle bodies, (unless you work for a dealer and you're milking the clock). Do some research, watch some youtube videos and read some how to's. A factory service manual could even be a good idea, (you can down load them on this forum).
DO NOT ATTEMPT TO ROTATE THE ENGINE WHATSOEVER WHILE INSTALLING THE NEW CCT'S.
Steady hands and proper tools are key to the front cct change without removing the throttle bodies.
And e-mailed to masoncityhonda@gmail.com to get both CCTs with gaskets, bolts and caps (parts # 6, 7, 8, 12, 17 from the link above) for little over 160$. Shipment to DC took some 3 days, IIRC.
Changed just the rear one and my noises disappeared :). Looks like PO has changed the front one as that is supposed to get bad first.
Changing the CCT's is actually quiet easy. This is the guide from VFRD I used to do both my front and rear ones. No need to remove the throttle bodies at all. You only need long needle nose pliers and a deep socket (8mm if I recall). Good idea to have a magnetic parts pickup tool to lift the bolt out. Use new sealing washers and gaskets as recommended in the manual. Good idea to mark the hoses removed from the airbox to make reinstall a snap. While you have the airbox off it is a great opportunity to check your vacume hoses for cracks and leaks as well as to spray a bit of lubricant on you linkages. All in all will take about 2 hours or so.
Cheers guys, I have removed the Throttle bodies, wish I hadn't! how complex is that. AH well, all good experience. and it means I can replace the rotten inlet rubber clamps. One had snapped and at least three aren't far off. I've already ordered those.
I drained the oil... Almost 4 litres (don't ask what that is in Quarts!) of black treacle ! not good, should be just over 3....
The water expansion bottle was empty! defintely not last week when I had the l/hand side panel off.
CCT's will be replaced as I've got it apart this far.
There was milky sludge in the breather for the air box. and a film of what smelt like fuel.
I think this may be more than just the CCT's. I am now looking at the oil pump and water pump! when I find where they are. I am lucky to have other bikes to use while I do this but I will get to the bottom of this.
I am not sure if this has had a hard llife but it's only clocked 22K miles! but I am finding so many rusty brackets, odd, mismatched and missing bolts. I may have to put some effort into this.
Replaced CCT just got to get it back together now.
Trouble is if it the Oil pump the numpty previous owner has botched the crash bungs on and the R/h one won't come away so I can't get the side panel. I may have to cut it away.
This cheap runabout for the winter is becoming somewhat troublesome.
A friend of mine has a used engine for sale which might be a faster and safer option. You may be able to find one lying around for cheap. Only thing is shipping...
BC to UK.... hmmmm... I may look for one over here LOL. As it is I am in no rush as I have other bikes.
Just frustrated that something so highly lauded as the bees-Knees of reliability has let me down so soon. I'm sure like all my projects once I have fixed it I'll get many miles of enjoyment out of it. I kept an 20year old Suzuki running for 80-90,000 miles so I'm sure I can at least hit the 100,000 mile mark on this.
more up dates later ( when I work out where all the plugs, pipes and doo-dads go on the air-box. :mad: )
Just frustrated that something so highly lauded as the bees-Knees of reliability has let me down so soon.
I would be frustrated, too. I'm betting the issue came about due to inattentive maintenance more than anything, which you personally couldn't have really done anything about. I'm sure you'll get it fixed up and treat her right!
BC to UK.... hmmmm... I may look for one over here LOL. As it is I am in no rush as I have other bikes.
Just frustrated that something so highly lauded as the bees-Knees of reliability has let me down so soon. I'm sure like all my projects once I have fixed it I'll get many miles of enjoyment out of it. I kept an 20year old Suzuki running for 80-90,000 miles so I'm sure I can at least hit the 100,000 mile mark on this.
more up dates later ( when I work out where all the plugs, pipes and doo-dads go on the air-box. :mad: )
M8, don't blame the bike, blame the previous owner.
Mine's done 72k with nary an issue.
Sounds like you are being methodical and persistent so carry on and you should get to the bottom of it.
M8, don't blame the bike, blame the previous owner.
Mine's done 72k with nary an issue.
Sounds like you are being methodical and persistent so carry on and you should get to the bottom of it.
Gareth, as I say I'm just frustrated. I wanted a bike I could ride and forget. I know you and others have had high mileages out of them. I will get to the bottom of it and fix and make it shiny. . .
Cheers guys, I have removed the Throttle bodies, wish I hadn't! how complex is that. AH well, all good experience. and it means I can replace the rotten inlet rubber clamps. One had snapped and at least three aren't far off. I've already ordered those.
I drained the oil... Almost 4 litres (don't ask what that is in Quarts!) of black treacle ! not good, should be just over 3....
The water expansion bottle was empty! defintely not last week when I had the l/hand side panel off.
CCT's will be replaced as I've got it apart this far.
There was milky sludge in the breather for the air box. and a film of what smelt like fuel.
I think this may be more than just the CCT's. I am now looking at the oil pump and water pump! when I find where they are. I am lucky to have other bikes to use while I do this but I will get to the bottom of this.
I am not sure if this has had a hard llife but it's only clocked 22K miles! but I am finding so many rusty brackets, odd, mismatched and missing bolts. I may have to put some effort into this.
Bah Humbug.
I think you are way over thinking things and making it a lot harder than it needs to be. (i.e. throttle bodies don't need to come off)
The milky sludge is more than likely just oil vapor and condensation mixed together.
Its in the air box, everything is going to smell like fuel.
22 hours ago, Woodie
Replaced CCT just got to get it back together now.
Trouble is if it the Oil pump the numpty previous owner has botched the crash bungs on and the R/h one won't come away so I can't get the side panel. I may have to cut it away.
This cheap runabout for the winter is becoming somewhat troublesome.
I'll crack it.
or sell it...
or burn it....
Again, I think you are over doing it.
More than likely just a bike whose previous owner did no maintenance, so it just needs a basic tune up and new cct's. I seriously would not be fooling around with the oil/water pump etc. My plan of attack would have been flushing all fluids a few times (coolant/oil/gas/brake/clutch), new spark plugs/ air filter/ fuel filter, ultra sonic cleaning on the injectors and a starter valve synchronization. But now since you have the throttle bodies off, you might as well throw new vacuum lines and throttle body boots in there as well.
I kinda agree, but you never know.. It is possible to ruin even Honda's engine with improper care (or not).
I would measure the compression in cylinders and try to locate the origin of sound with smth like this https://goo.gl/lP5L56 (well, you can't do that now, if it's not running). And then see if I still feel like cracking the engine.
More than likely just a bike whose previous owner did no maintenance, so it just needs a basic tune up and new cct's. I seriously would not be fooling around with the oil/water pump etc. My plan of attack would have been flushing all fluids a few times (coolant/oil/gas/brake/clutch), new spark plugs/ air filter/ fuel filter, ultra sonic cleaning on the injectors and a starter valve synchronization. But now since you have the throttle bodies off, you might as well throw new vacuum lines and throttle body boots in there as well.
Maybe I am overthinking but I am preparing for worst case scenario. Starter Valve Synchro? I may have to google that.
Throttle body boots were good, not gone hard or cracked but the clamps were cattled and I replaced 3 of them. Never having worked on one of these bikes it is a baptism of fire but I will simply take it one rattle at a time. I am not in a rush as I have other bikes to ride so I am taking my time and learning about it as I go along.
Once this is sorted, the whole bike will get a darned good service, (all the fluids as you suggest,) I have already serviced the front forks, reconditioned the lowers and flushed and changed the fork oil. If I can find out how to service the Rear shock I'll do that too.
Starter valve synchronization is throttle body balancing. Why do you think the engine noise is anything more than just CCT's? To service the rear shock, you can send it to DaughertyMotorsports.com
Starter valve synchronization is throttle body balancing. Why do you think the engine noise is anything more than just CCT's? To service the rear shock, you can send it to DaughertyMotorsports.com
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
Well, the saga so far, replaced both CCT's still rattling. dismantled the front Cam Cover and checked the timing. spot on.
Removed the water pump and there seems no float in the rotor. Can't get the clutch basket off but the oil pump seems OK but should there be slack in the pump dirve chain!
I can't think of anything else that might make the noise.
A video of the noise might be helpful. A stethoscope if available, a long screwdriver or my favorite low cost ones a length of moderate diameter rubber hose can also be used to locate sound.
I was thinking of recording it. First I have to rebuild the engine! :blush:
the only way I can describe it is as a rotating noise. like something is rotating against something else. like a cog or drive chain hitting something. I'm going to replace the CCTs with manuals first. I have the engine casing off and i have tried all the cam chains and they all seem taught so I can't see them being the source of the problem.
I have removed the water pump to see if that had failed. I appeared to have lost water in the system so it seemed logical. but it works, it pumps and there is no float in the internals.
Next I am looking at the oil pump, as previously mentioned I can't get the clutch basket off but there seems to be slack in the oil pump drive chain, not enough for it to jump a tooth but enough to expose the teeth of the sprocket if I push it with a finger.
Why are you going to use manual tensioners if you've already established the cam chain is not the source of the noise? Manual tensioners promote chain stretch over time.
Why are you going to use manual tensioners if you've already established the cam chain is not the source of the noise? Manual tensioners promote chain stretch over time.
As a troubleshooting tool. As I have serviced the CCT's and not replaced them I need to be sure they cured the problem. Manual CCT's would be used to ensure they were functioning properly.
The initial post mentioned a lack of power. Is that still the case since the work that's been done?
If going manual CCT's it pays to be careful. Someone not so long ago mentioned breaking a cam chain by going too tight. It did though get rid of the noise while it lasted . . .
The initial post mentioned a lack of power. Is that still the case since the work that's been done?
If going manual CCT's it pays to be careful. Someone not so long ago mentioned breaking a cam chain by going too tight. It did though get rid of the noise while it lasted . . .
I can't tell. as it rattles when I do get it started I haven't run it for any distance. until I ensure I have isolated all the different possibilities of the rattle. Another member from a UK VFR Based forum has floated the possibility of a bearing failure. That sounds rather ominous and expensive.
As I mentioned. I would use a manual CCT to ensure Auto CCT's are not the cause, before moving on to isolate other possible sources. Hopefully by this weekend I will have disproved anything I can think of and possibly take it for a run. see if the power has returned. That maybe a red herring as I was riding VERY conservatively when the noise first manifested itself but I can't discount it yet.
ho hum.. good Job my "Unreliable " Triumph still goes !
Well, the saga so far, replaced both CCT's still rattling.
Woodie, 10/30/2016 at 5:29 AM
I was thinking of recording it. First I have to rebuild the engine! :blush:
Just next time when you check if it is still rattling, do it on camera (somewhere near engine). Some people here may recognize the sound. If you think it's not doing any more damage, try with clutch on/off, idle and higher revs steady and with short bursts of throttle from idle. Or just idle if sound seems smth bad.
Just next time when you check if it is still rattling, do it on camera (somewhere near engine). Some people here may recognize the sound. If you think it's not doing any more damage, try with clutch on/off, idle and higher revs steady and with short bursts of throttle from idle. Or just idle if sound seems smth bad.
Unfortunately the engine is still in bits until I can get a Clutch Retaining tool to fit. as soon as I get it back together I will record the noise.
it rattles with the clutch in, clutch out, on idle, at revs, it sounds like something is catching against a cog or chain as the frequency of the sound rises with the engine revolutions. Another forum has suggested this may be indicative of bearing failure.
TBH I have given up and purchased a second hand engine. I still intend to find this fault and repair it (As it's irritating me) but I don't have the time to waste trying to isolate the fault. Despite the fact I have another bike to use I don't want this taking up garage (workshop) space I can use for 'fun' projects.
Many thanks to all those who have replied with suggestions. I will of course report back when I have sussed it.
And so the saga continues. having procured a cheap replacement engine I am now trying to extract the old one. after two days of heat guns, soaking the engine mount in WD-40, propane torch on the crash-bung mounting bars I am still no closer. I've managed to get the swing arm off, even though I can't remove the rear headers or the exhaust, by removing the rear shock and wiggling the swing arm mount free. I have had to cut the engine mounting bar by chopping through the spacer and bar in one go and I have created a small enough gap on the other side to get a hacksaw blade in and cut the bar. I just have to work out how to support the frame while I get the engine out as the centre stand attaches to the engine!
Once I get the engine out I should be able to drill the exhaust mounting bolt that resides under the sump. What a faff!
No experience. Just curious to know if it works as advertised.
Nah, I had used heat. I had tried some freezer spray from my Computer toolbox but it didn't seem to help. My experience with engine mount bolts on my Old Suzuki was if heat didn't do the job, the only recourse was to either drill out the offending bar or use spark erosion. The problem is the aluminium corrodes and swells to form a very tight seal on the s/steel bar. Once I had cut the spacer away I managed to drift the remains of the bar out of the frame but even that took some mighty persuasion, and that was only held along a short length.
Depending on access, some shock to the bolts can help free the threads.
The offending mounting is not threaded, it is a straight bar that goes from one side to the other. It's purely Bi-metal corrosion that is holding it in pace and I know from bitter experience just how tight that can grip. I have been using a steel drift and a lump hammer to try and shift it so if THAT hasn't shocked it free nothing will. LOL.
I haven't touched it for a few days as I am now trying to suss out how to secure the frame while I drop the engine out. if anyone has any ideas I'm listening.
Man, this is an ordeal! People that don't take care of VFR's need to be hung, drawn, then quartered. Keep us posted and hand in there!
Thanks Bent, I managed to get the old engine out over the weekend and the replacement one in. Gave up trying to lift the engine and dropped the frame onto the engine. Spent much of the weekend drilling old bolts out (Exhaust mount, centre stand, starter motor) and now have all the running gear in place, although I had to fit the swing arm twice.... guess who forgot the chain ?
I don't think I managed to salvage enough head studs/exhaust nuts so I need to order them before I fit that. now comes the slow rebuild where I try and remember where everything goes. :goofy:
Engine out again due to trapping a couple of electrical connectors between the rear head and the frame... Grrrr..
Engine back in again.. now I just had to find where everything connected too. After lots and lots of trial and error I've got everything connected. I nearly had to take the lump out again as had got some connectors (the 02 sensors, side stand switch and gear selector switch) routed wrong but managed to get it back up the frame and back down again.
Exhaust fitted with new studs. I did buy a box of VFR bolts from a breaker so managed to salvage 10 header nuts by drilling and cleaning them up. Most of them had snapped when the exhaust was removed from both engines but I managed to get new studs. I did forget to put one in the rear barrel but managed to fiddle that one in. How on earth do people get the exhaust off without removing the engine?
Oil in, need to bleed the clutch... (I can tell that's gonna be another saga.) water pipes and rads have been on and off a couple of times in order to get the wiring routed correctly.
does anyone know how the pipe from the top of the R/hand radiator to the bottom of the water reserve tank routes. I have the pipe but it seems odd to route a cooling pipe across the front of a hot engine.
Fingers crossed I'll have a go at starting it this week. My only concern is the wiring to the injectors. I think I've got them on right but I can't find any markings on the connectors denoting which lead is for which cylinder... Ho Hum.
Fingers crossed I'll have a go at starting it this week. My only concern is the wiring to the injectors. I think I've got them on right but I can't find any markings on the connectors denoting which lead is for which cylinder... Ho Hum
Hi Woodie.
The Injectors are a two wire device, one wire on all 4 injectors will be a Black/White wire. The other wire will define the Injector number.
Injector - 1 Pink/Blue wire
Injector - 2 Red/Yellow wire
Injector - 3 Pink/Green wire
Injector - 4 Pink/Black wire
This is according to the 6th Gen wiring diagram I have. Do you have a wiring diagram?????
Jayzuz Woodie, struth mate!! That's some mighty fun you be having there.
I don't know how I missed this thread. I do apologize. I swapped* engines on my 6th gen a few years ago. I could have told you I didn't drop the engine out so much as lift the frame of one engine and drop it on the other. So sorry you had to find out the hard way.
We, buddy and I, also encountered an oxidized, Excaliburized, mounting rod which was nigh impossible to remove. In my case the one holding the swing arm on. Took an entire morning of invoking a berserk warrior state and performing exorcisms with heat and cold and an F'ing Big Mallet. My mate finally went ballistic, demon possessed and got it out. Not without deforming the surrounding casing a bit.
We too had to remove and remount the frame once and forks once or twice due to routing stuff wrongly.
I may have been able to help, although would mostly be relying on my, watchamecallit? Oh, yeah, memory!
I guess this just makes it worse really, should have shut me gob.
In as much as the noise that started all this... Reconditioning the CCTs doesn't always do the job. Unless you swapped the springs out for known good ones. Sometimes people just get lucky. They're not the best design unfortunately. New ones will be the only definitive way of ruling CCT noise out. Even then, engine oil brand and SAE can be enough, I myself am witness to it. Try changing brands/SAE.
If I can be of any assistance I will try.
Here's a long shot. I once thought my 6th gen has CCT noise but discovered the gasket on one of the joints for the rear headers was cracked and a loose piece was rattling. Didn't go away by grabbing the clutch. Frequency of rattle followed RPMs. Thought it was coming from rear CCT as they are in the same area. Swapped CCTs, rear first, didn't fix it. Then squatting there like Rossi does, at the foot peg, I suddenly picked up on it. No idea how. Just luck. Swapped out the gasket (yes, the exhaust removal on this bike is fun), no more rattle.
Cheers Auspanglish. I'm NOT convinced the noise was the CCT's but short of replacing them at £80 ($135 Aus) a pop I decided it was quicker (famous last words there) to swap out the lump. It was definitely engine based but I couldn't pin it down. I should have tried a mechanics stethoscope to locate the area of the noise.
Once this is done I will get the old engine on the bench and give it a good going over. If I want to sell it on to recoup some of my losses I'm going to have to anyway. (especially as I managed to drop the end cap off one of the CCT's in there when I was taking the old engine out.
I'm not too worried as this is bike 3 and my main ride is still going despite the administration of a VW Golf to the side last week. Plus nit gives me an excuse to go in the Garage and fettle
Engine is in, and out and in again. I managed to trap some of the wiring between the engine and the frame.
After a few failed attempts I managed to work out just where all the wiring went (note to self - Photograph things so I know where they go)
Charged battery, oil topped up (leaking but that's just a missing 'o' ring to the oil cooler) water and
whirr, whirr, whirr, ... Nothing ! Bugger
tried some Easy-Start in the air box still nothing, tried some down one plug hole.
NOW here comes the disaster, I couldn't get the coil pack back on the plug. The little rubber gripper-grommet from inside the Plug socket had come off and trying to push the coil pack in had jammed it down over the flats of the plug meaning I couldn't get the sparkplug out again.
After 2 weekends with wire hooks and screwdrivers with notches ground in thje tips I managed to pick off enough to get the plug out....
Now I just have to work out why I have no spark, Dag Nab It. I'll get this blighter going eventually. .
End of thread · 52 posts recoveredWayback Machine snapshot 18 Jul 2017