Gear Driven Cam Conversion & Restoration

I've been thinking that the New Members section of the forum is perhaps not the best place to keep my hybrid conversion and restoration thread updated, so I have decided to move it here instead. Here's the background for anyone who hasn't seen it yet:

With the revised drawings sent to the fabricator (I hope to have them this week), I can now turn my attention to working out how to constrain the coils in the spark plug tubes, and have ordered a second hand set of cam covers so that I can mock up a couple of plates to secure them.

The front coils will be secured by bolting through a ~ 2mm aluminium plate that is secured to the PAIR blanking plate bolt holes.

The rear coils will be effectively clamped down - I had to chop the triangular(ish) bolt-hole-part of the coil (see RHS of photo) - it would not fit around the large protruding part of the cover otherwise. I have however seen one person drastically modify their cam cover to accomodate the coil in its entirety - for me though, getting the hacksaw out was much easier and quicker. The PAIR blaking plate bolt holes and longer bolts will be used as per the front cover solution.

In the longer term, I would like to have the cam covers tarted up as mine are scrathched quite noticeably; I already have new gaskets, so it's a bit of a no brainer as a longer term aspiration. To that end, I will eventually (probably towards the end of the year) have some bolt hole posts TIG welded onto covers, and have the protruding part modified to accomodate the entire coil; powdercoating would follow thereafter.    

My PCIII should be here on Wednesday, ahving taken an unexpected detour around the UK.

From Candyman (old thread):

"I really like everything that is being done here, but heads up, The Power Commander Fi base map, is for an Fi engine with an Fi ECU, you have an Fi engine and VTEC ECU. The fuel mapping requirements will more than likely be totally different. I would highly recommend not using any base map, towing it to a dyno and having a custom map made. The ignition mapping will be way off as well, but that is another story. It will obviously work, but it is worth looking into, as the ignition timing requirements of 2 valve lean burn (swirl), will be totally different than that of a 4 valve (tumble) arrangement."

I'm placing a lot of faith in the fact that someone else has used the same approach as I am, and has had no problems at all with a base map that was 'tuned' via the buttons at a later date - his bike has been fine for ~ 5 years now as well, which adds a degree of credibility. I intend to be very sensitive to potential fuelling issues when riding the bike to a dyno for a proper setup, understanding that a base map is not ideal, and keeping the revs below 6k to err on the side of caution. If I detect any sort of issues, then I will stop and reassess.

Good idea. I shall keep an interested eye on your progress.

I've changed my mind a little about how to secure the coils in the cam covers. I was planning on making some sort of bracket arrangement, but have now decided to bond the adaptors in place with JB weld, and have the cam covers powdercoated. The rubber seal on the coils is very snug around the adaptors, so I'm fairly confident that they will stay in place; the Fi HT leads aren't held in place with bolts either and rely on friction alone. Time will of course tell if I'm right, and I can always revert to my original approach if needed. 

Jobs for the weekend include:

- Fitting Power Commander - I was sent a PCV rather than PCIII as the latter has been discontinued.

- Fitting chain

- Badegring M&P as to the whereabouts of my brake lines

- Fitting oil filter

- Topping up oil

- Ordering tyres

- Wiring heated grips (inc relay)

When the wheels are powdercoated, I will fit the new bearings to the front wheel, and have the tyres fitted. 

When the brake lines eventually rock up, I'll be able to fit the nose cone, mirrors, mirror extenders, and test the headlights.

I should have the cam cover adaptors early next week too, which will allow me to fit the tank (after changing the spark plugs) and stick some fuel in!

Loftust From Candyman (old thread):
 

"I really like everything that is being done here, but heads up, The Power Commander Fi base map, is for an Fi engine with an Fi ECU, you have an Fi engine and VTEC ECU. The fuel mapping requirements will more than likely be totally different. I would highly recommend not using any base map, towing it to a dyno and having a custom map made. The ignition mapping will be way off as well, but that is another story. It will obviously work, but it is worth looking into, as the ignition timing requirements of 2 valve lean burn (swirl), will be totally different than that of a 4 valve (tumble) arrangement."

I'm placing a lot of faith in the fact that someone else has used the same approach as I am, and has had no problems at all with a base map that was 'tuned' via the buttons at a later date - his bike has been fine for ~ 5 years now as well, which adds a degree of credibility. I intend to be very sensitive to potential fuelling issues when riding the bike to a dyno for a proper setup, understanding that a base map is not ideal, and keeping the revs below 6k to err on the side of caution. If I detect any sort of issues, then I will stop and reassess.

6 minutes ago, CandyRedRC46

That sounds like an awful idea.

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I'll let you know how it goes  :smile:

Why do such a great job on everything else on this post an then half ass the tuning? You are obviously a very smart and capable person, but doing something wrong just because someone else did something wrong and their engine didn't break yet, is a bad idea. There is no reason to load a fifth gen base map (they don't even make them for the PCV) into a power Commander for use with a sixth gen ECU.

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4 hours ago, CandyRedRC46

There is no reason to load a fifth gen base map (they don't even make them for the PCV) into a power Commander for use with a sixth gen ECU.

I think you've just highlighted a significant flaw with my plan there - I wasn't aware that there are no Fi base maps for the PCV, so thanks for that. It certainly scuppers my intended approach.

In your experience, do you think I'd be ok to run the engine to setup the Starter Valves, and up to a couple of thousand revs - it would obviously be extremely helpful to have bled the coolant and rectified any immediate issues before starting the engine at a dyno centre.

Even if power commander had a PVC fi base map, they still would not have an fi engine with vtec ecu base map, which would be totally different. Just keep a zero map in the PCV until you get it on a dyno.

Since no tuning (maybe a percent or two) will be done in the 0% throttle column, syncing the starter valves and burping the coolant before tuning will be fine. I would just avoid any significant throttle or loading until on the dyno.

50 minutes ago, CandyRedRC46

Even if power commander had a PVC fi base map, they still would not have an fi engine with vtec ecu base map, which would be totally different. Just keep a zero map in the PCV until you get it on a dyno.

Since no tuning (maybe a percent or two will be done in the 0% throttle column), syncing the starter valves and burping the coolant before tuning will be fine. I would just avoid any significant throttle or loading until on the dyno.

That's really helpful advice - thank you  :fing02:

Thought it best to chime in here.

I've done the whole 5th Gen engine in the 6th Gen frame thing and you will be majorly mistaken trying to run anything to do with 5th gen mapping with the 6th gen ECU.

You will need an ECU piggy back that is capable of ignition modification as well as fueling.

So a PCV with the IGN module or a RapidBike Racing unit which I am running.

Sorry to rain on your parade but there is a lot of differences between the 5th and 6th gens re ECU, injectors/throttle bodies and you will need to do a fair bit if work to make it successful.

Also, you will need to run the VTec changeover solenoid or the ECU will fault.

Take a look at me thread on overboring a 5th gen and fitting it to me 2010 6th gen.

Has anyone even come close to successfully getting a power commander and ignition module to work on a vfr800?

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HighSideNZ, 21/01/2017 at 8:41 AM

Thought it best to chime in here.

I've done the whole 5th Gen engine in the 6th Gen frame thing and you will be majorly mistaken trying to run anything to do with 5th gen mapping with the 6th gen ECU.

You will need an ECU piggy back that is capable of ignition modification as well as fueling.

So a PCV with the IGN module or a RapidBike Racing unit which I am running.

Sorry to rain on your parade but there is a lot of differences between the 5th and 6th gens re ECU, injectors/throttle bodies and you will need to do a fair bit if work to make it successful.

Also, you will need to run the VTec changeover solenoid or the ECU will fault.

Take a look at me thread on overboring a 5th gen and fitting it to me 2010 6th gen.

Thanks for your considered advice - I'll have a think about your advice and see what (else) needs doing. At worst, I will put a 5th Gen harness and ECU in, and modify it to handle to the 6th gen lights / electrical loading etc. I'd really rather avoid this, but we shall see what direction I need to take.

I've retained the VTEC solenoid and engine sub harness, and now need to earth it to the bike somehow, which will be dead easy. It turns out that the neutral light and oil pressure light don't illuminate without the solenoid being earthed.

CandyRedRC46, 1/21/2017 at 1:09 PM

Has anyone even come close to successfully getting a power commander and ignition module to work on a vfr800?

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I'm not aware of anyone, but that doesn't mean it can't.  At least, not yet.  I've still not been back to my garage in the 'States to pick up the PCV and PCIII (and PCII, why not) and bring them back here for testing.  Someday I will.  I was kinda hoping someone else would do it first!

Ciao,

I think it (trying to get PC and ignition module working on a vfr800) was a cool experiment to try out ten years ago, but now that we have rapid bike and hopefully soon the guhl flash, it seems like a waste of time and money.

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The tyres are going on this week, and the cam cover adaptors should be in my paws tomorrow evening. I'll change the plugs and prime the piston rings, then set about bonding the adaptors in the covers before fitting the tank and giving the electrics the last once over.

The brake lines will hopefully be delivered tomorrow as well - sorting those out will allow me to fit the nose cone, although the other fairings will remain in the spare room until I'm happy that the engine is running ok at idle and is free of leaks.

The adaptors are spot on - I've left enough clearance between the adaptors and the spark plug tubes for some JB weld, which will bond the adaptors to the cover, and will be powdercoated in due course. As this is likely to take 2-3 weeks (my powdercoater is very cheap, but my components are fitted around their other work which takes precedence) I have had another set of adaptors manufactured, and they should be turning up this evening. I'll use these ones to mock everything up in the covers that are currently fitted to the engine, and get it running, then transplant the powdercoated covers into the bike at later date.

I will hopefully be able to collect the wheels with their boots this afternoon as well  :smile:

Not sure about these adaptors for the coil on plug setup?

I used GSXR1000 coils on my 5th gen and just had to mod the rubber boots a tad, and they've been perfect for years. 

6th gen harness and ECU uses three wire automotive style coils not two wires like most bikes. I want to say the s2000 etc interchange.

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5 hours ago, CandyRedRC46

6th gen harness and ECU uses three wire automotive style coils not two wires like most bikes. I want to say the s2000 etc interchange.

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Yeah, they look very much like the S2000 coils - it would be interesting to see if they are the same length etc as they are quite expensive to replace on the S.

Veefer - nice rocker covers and brake lines!

The wheels with their new boots went on yesterday, which felt like a notable milestone, and it's handy being able to move the bike back and forth. It was however too cold to refit the front left caliper, which probably needs the pistons pushing in a fraction more, so that'll go back on tomorrow - hopefully in tandem with the brake lines if the courier can get their act together.

I also sorted out a faux pas with the battery harness, which got me thinking about ground paths for the starter. Because the frame has been powdercoated, I'm unsure if I have a sufficient earth path for the starter, which I would have thought is via the engine, frame, earth lead, then battery. The engine would usually earth itself to the frame via the bare metal contact surfaces where the bolts go through, whereas I am currently relying on the bolts to provide this earth path, which doesn't sit well with me. 

I'm therefore tempted to rig up a separate earth lead directly from a bolt on the rear of the block (don't know which one yet), to the battery negative terminal, or where the frame earths itself to the battery at the rear of the frame.

Incidentally, I have removed a small area of powdercoat on the rear of the frame so that the battery negative lead is given a decent electrical connection, and did the same at the tank earth point too.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

I thought at some point someone had cross referenced the part numbers and they were the same.

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Just type in "099700 070" in a Google search and you will get hits for a lot of coil sticks, for much more than just the 6th gen vfr.

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Good work Sherlock  :wink:

I think it might be worth buying a single, used 099700 070 ignition coil stick for cheap, just to test out the fitment, as possibly all 099700 070's might not be the same.

Maybe an RSX type could be different than an s2000 or Honda fit etc... Even though they all have the same model number sticks.

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When i had my frame powder coated, I bought cheap hardware store metric bolts and washers, and screwed them into all the frame connections and tightened them. 

That way, I didn't have to worry about masking, and when I got the frame back, I just removed the temporary bolts and washers and none of the connection points had any powder on them. 

PS: the swing arm got done too, just at a later date. 

That was a sensible idea.

Today was frustrating - party because I was delayed getting started, and partly because the Goodridge hoses weren't made to spec properly. I'm going to have to send at least one hoses back because one of the unions is facing the completely wrong way. I may send one of the rear hoses back as the union where it connects to the proportioning valve doesn't have enough of a bend/kink in it - I only just about got it on, but the sheath got damaged in the process. It's the same story for the hose that connects to two ports on the right caliper - the union doesn't have enough of a kink in it. The other end of the rear hose was very difficult to connect as the union isn't at the correct angle. All in all, I'm not happy with them at the moment but will give Goodridge a chance to redeem themselves.

I was however able to wire the grips in, along with a relay, and bonded the coil adaptors in place. 

I may indeed have an issue with the starter, or starter earth path. I decided to see if I could turn the engine over briefly, but only got a single click from the starter relay, and even that required me to pull the clutch lever in. I'll take the starter out tomorrow and connect it to the battery, which should tell me something.

I've also filed away more of the powder of the rear of the frame where the negative leads connect. The resistance is ok between the block and negative terminal, but need to have more of a think about what else to try - the voltage across the terminals is 12.4V.

I've tested the clutch diode and I'm not convinced that it's working correctly - I don't get reasonable and consistent continuity as you'd  expect, but instead get intermittent high resistance across two of the terminals. This would explain why I have to pull the clutch lever in to get the starter relay to to operate.

I wouldn't be too surprised if the starter has gone - IIRC, the previous owner mentioned that it was a bit difficult to start at times. I would like to ensure that the engine has a good earth too though, and will look into running a dedicated earth lead again tomorrow.

One interesting thing is that the Fi light flashes a code even without the service connector being bridged...odd. The code is 27 (VTEC solenoid) which is down to not sorting out its own earth lead yet, which is a separate issue to the starter not operating.

The starter turns nicely when removed from the engine and earthed to the frame. I now need to work out if the battery simply does not have the cranking power to turn the starter under load, or whether earth path for the starter is crap when fitted to the engine.

It's the earth. An additional earth as described earlier has sorted it and the engine turns over. I just need to find a suitable bolt to fix the lead to on the block.

Hurrah!

I haven't posted enough images on this thread, so here's a couple.

I admire your knowledge base and problem solving tenacity... and patience. Electrickery does my head in.

Enjoying the thread!

6 hours ago, Auspanglish

I admire your knowledge base and problem solving tenacity... and patience. Electrickery does my head in.

Enjoying the thread!

Thank you!  :smile:

Three of the hoses went back to Goodridge earlier this week for some adjustments. I hope to have them in my mits by early next week at the latest. I'm not particularly looking forward to bleeding the whole system though - especially as it's completely full of air. Becuase of this, I'll back fill the calipers and proprtioning valve via the bleed nipples (using a syringe), which was really effective for the clutch. Once that's done, the nosecone, mirrors, headlights etc will go on.

In the meantime, I've got a spring clip to fit to the fuel return line under the tank, route the tank overflow and breather hoses, and stick some fuel in the tank while its raised in order to check that the gaskets are doing their job.

I'd like to get the oil round the engine a little more, and whislt I'm aware of the right method for turning the oil pump, I'm not removing the clutch cover again to obtain access. I'll therefore continue to turn the bike over on the starter motor, which turns the oil pump and will hopefully give everything enough lubrication before going for a proper start.

I've managed to find a reputable tuner to do the tuning as well, so that's promising, even if they're ~ 50 miles away. 

It's alive!

I had the engine running, albeit a little roughly, for a minute or two this afternoon.

It cut out after that, and wouldn't restart as I had flattened the battery by turning it over on the starter for a minute or so a little earlier.

The nose cone, screen, headlights, mirrors, seat, and solo seat cowl also went on - it's looking more like a VFR now :-)

I'd like to get the bike running a but smoother and for longer, but will need to put the battery on charge first. 

Well done m8.

Gonna miss this but hope yr close to a rideable bike when we get back.  :beer:

Cheers!

Looking forward to getting out with a mate on his 750 when it's been mapped. We're also hoping to do a short tour of Belgium/Holland later in the year too.

Have a great holiday in NZ!

So it turns out that a V4 runs better when all 4 coils are connected. Oops! I also swapped the battery for a new one - the old one wasn't charging properly.

So the bike is now firing well without the PCV, although I've limited the revs to about 3.5k thus far. I had a go at bleeding the coolant too, but burnt myself on the downpipes twice, so decided to call it a day. 

The new brake hoses turned up during the week, although they sent me back the unmodified rear one - needless to say I'm a bit miffed and have emailed them, asking them redress the situation...sigh...

Once I've got the coolant bled, I'll be able to stick the remaining fairings on - hurrah!

There isn't much to do now, although I need to borrow a set of manometers to balance the SVs, and will make sure the head bearings and forks are adjusted correctly as well.

12 hours ago, Loftust

There isn't much to do now, although I need to borrow a set of manometers to balance the SVs, and will make sure the head bearings and forks are adjusted correctly as well.

Yet again, I have a set of those.

Unfortunately, we are 3 weeks away from being able to post them to you!

Okay so it’s been a while since I posted up about this, which is primarily due to my GF and I going through an uncertain patch (she wants kids, I don’t think I do).

I have however received the other pair of cam covers from the powdercoaters, complete with the coil adaptors in place:

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Of the jobs left to do, I intend to do these ones:

- Fit proportioning valve to rear caliper brake hose
- Finish wiring for heated grips (tap into switched live and connect relay)
- Have a combined pannier/numberplate/reflector plate fabricated
- Fit Numberplate (to be ordered)
- Fit fairing side panels
- Fit fairing infills

Due to a couple of constraints, I’ll be asking someone else to do the following:

- Bleed coolant
- Adjust head bearings (new ones fitted)
- Fit bar risers
- Setup front suspension (forks 5mm lower in the yoke than standard)
- Bleed brakes
- Torque hub nut & stake – as I don’t have brakes atm, I can’t stop the wheel from rotating
- Fit fuel tank heatshield (rubber bit under rear of tank)
- Chase a couple of threads on the swingarm for the chain guard – the size I need is broken
- Chase thread for nearside front disc and fit remaining bolt – ditto above
- Sync Starter Valves
- Look into the fuel dripping from overflow hose; it might not be a problem

That should be it, thereby allowing me to get the bike taxed and MOT’d,  which will subsequently allow me to get the bike up to the dyno for mapping.

I'd quite like to ride the thing soon!

IT'S FINISHED!!!!!
 
Well very nearly. I took delivery of the bike yesterday morning, having passed it on to someone else to undertake the (not so) wonderful jobs of bleeding the coolant and brakes, along with a few other odds and sods that I simply couldn't be arsed to do. Given the amount of time and effort that I have committed, I really don't feel too shameful for doing so.

Left to do - adjust the grip on the throttle tube to prevent rubbing on bar end
Temporarily fit numberplate to OEM pannier bracket
Purchase and fit 2p reflector 
MOT
Mapping
Fit integrated pannier and numberplate bracket
Sort out private registration (yeah, I know)
Have fun  [image: :grin:]

There are a few untidy bolts etc, including the front axle, which I will sort out in time, but for now, I'm done...although I may replace the silencers in the near future  [image: :grin:]

Love that flat torque curve.

thats why i haven't replaced mine in all these years. 

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Looking good! The bike that it is...I couldn't possibly comment on the bloke in the picture!

Nice "fake oil leak" under the bike, but nobody's going to fall for that one--it's a VFR!

Ciao,