Hello, I've just this minute signed up in the hope that you guys can help me out of a hole!
I did the dastardly deed last weekend and bought a 2004 VFR800 vtec unseen from eBay 🤔
It was a 2 hour ride home, and al was fine until about 30 mins from home the bike lost all power, and completely stopped. No warning, no dash lights, just stopped. Turns out the fuel pump has no power going to it. I've done what I can interns of tracing the fault, but wiring and mechanics in general are not my strong point. So, here I am unashamedly asking for help with my very first post!
So far I have....
Proven a good ground from the pump to the battery neg.
Proven continuity of the brown.
Proven the pump by connecting directly to the battery.
Basic tested relays by connecting 12v and listening for the click. Also swapped relays around and no diffs.
What I have found though, is that at the ESR, I have 12v (10 actually) on the black and pink with ignition off, and 12v on the black with ignition on. What I dont have, is 12v on the black and white which is what powers the FCR and in turn the pump.
What I'm struggling with is why...I have the wiring diagram, but I didn't listen at school and I cant get my head around it fully.
Any help would be massively appreciated!
TIA, and ride safe
Andy
What is the “ESR” you’re seeing 10V on?
Is the battery fully charged?
Have checked all fuses?
1 minute ago, ducnut
What is the “ESR” you’re seeing 10V on?
Is the battery fully charged?
Have checked all fuses?
ESR = Engine Stop Relay and on the Black/Pink wire he should be seeing virtual Battery Voltage, 10v is low.
Your Bank Angle Sensor provides the Ground to energise the ESR, via the Red/Orange wire. But the 10v you are reading on the Black/Pink wire is low. The 12v you are seeing on the Black wire is correct and this comes via the Engine Kill Switch. So it appears for the ESR not to be energising the Ground BAS side might be an issue.
Verify your Battery is good and terminals are tight.
Do you have the Service Manual which you can download from this site?
I’m wondering if the R/R and/or stator took a dump and the bike ran on battery voltage until the battery charge got too low to operate the bike.
1 hour ago, ducnut
I’m wondering if the R/R and/or stator took a dump and the bike ran on battery voltage until the battery charge got too low to operate the bike.
That's a good possibility. But at the moment, and assuming his battery might be ok, he should be seeing the ESR energise at switch on. But yes, does he have a properly charged battery at the moment? We will have to wait and hear back from AndyE.
Should be able to get the engine running with a charged battery then verify the charging volts.
May also check the front sub harness blue ground wire that’s common failure on these bikes. Search blue wire ground issue six GEN or something like that.
Honda had a recall for this item by the way. If it’s been done there should be a stamp mark on the ID tag on the side of the frame rail.qHonda had a recall for this item by the way. If it’s been done there should be a stamp mark on the ID tag on the side of the frame rail.
Don’t remember if it’s top right or top left corner.
Good point regards the Blue connector Green ground wire, as this would explain the loss of Instrument Panel lights as well as the ESR dropping out.
Hi all, thanks for all the replies, I appreciate the help.
So, couple of things to clarify... I didnt loose the instrument lights, what I meant was that there wasn't any fault lights or stop lights when the engine cut. Everything appears fine, except the pump doesn't prime. Looks like the blue connector has had a 'workaround' rather than a recall, there is an additional ground wire at the connector that seems to suggest this has been done according to what I've seen on here and other places. Will check it if I know what to check!
The battery was supposedly new, and testing it direct on the terminals shows 11.7v, although still only 10 at the relay (and any other connections such as lights). Will put it on charge but I don't think that's the problem as I should still see something on the bl/w wire shouldn't I, or does it require a full 12v to work?
I've grounded the r/o wire on the ESR and tried again, but still the same.
Green from the BAS shows continuity to the battery neg, i.e. 0 ohm's.
I have a service manual downloaded, maybe I need to take another look...Ive read so many things I'm beginning to confuse myself and maybe missed the part that helps!
Edit to add, there is continuity of the r/o wire from the BAS to the ESR.
Cheers all,
Andy
Hi Andy.
If you have 12v on the Black wire of the ESR Coil (Ignition On)and you have properly Grounded the Red/Orange wire being the other side of the relay coil you MUST hear it energise. You can only have a faulty relay OR and bad relay socket/base connections. Anything like the attached pictures?
Give this a good check and get back to us.
Hi Grum,
I do indeed hear and feel the esr click when I switch the ignition on. I've swapped it out with the headlight relay and same results. Just in case, I've actually cycled left all 3 relays twice so that at some point if there was a fault relay, it would be connected to the headlight and couldn't affect either the esr or fcr.
I have the battery on charge at the moment and will take another reading when its charged. The b/w wire shows around 1v rather than 0, but I was assuming some sort of residual current...and this was normal?! Told you I didn't listen at school!
With that in mind, are you still thinking a bad connection at the esr somewhere?
Once again, thanks for the help.
Andy
Hi Grum, the relay and connectors look OK....
Although looking at that pic, no.2 which is the b/w has a small amount of corrosion...could that be all it is? Surely not?!
[image: 20200719_114532.jpg]
[image: 20200719_114543.jpg]
[image: 20200719_114650.jpg]
Ok from what I read you've never stated that the ESR is energising!
You need to have a very good look at your Main Fuse B 30amp. This is located next to the starter relay. Have a very close look for overheating wires and a heat stressed fuse, check the Fuse spade sockets for any evidence of potential high resistance. You should be seeing virtually the same voltage at the Black Pink wire of the ESR as what you measure at the battery itself.
ALSO- Confirm that you are hearing the Relay energise with the Bank Angle Sensor all connected and providing the Ground for the ESR. So listen closely at the ESR and turn on the Ignition DO YOU HEAR IT ENERGISE?
Apologies, I thought I'd explained that in my first post but reading back, I hadn't. I have checked the main fuse, and it looked OK, I.e. wasnt blown and tested out at 0 ohms, but didn't take a really close look, so will do that next.
Thanks
Andy
Do you get 12v momentarily on the supply to the fuel pump , or has this been asked .
Andy - Check ESR ops as mentioned above, my last post.
18 minutes ago, Trebike0
Do you get 12v momentarily on the supply to the fuel pump , or has this been asked .
No power getting to the Fuel Cut Relay so the switch on prime is not happening. See AndyE's opening post.
Cheers.
Hi Grum
Yes, I can hear and feel the esr click, which I assume means its energised. It just isn't putting any power out on the b/w connection.
Main fuse B looks OK, no sign of heat stress, ie. no nasty brown marks or stiff wires.
Trek, nope, no power out of the ESR on the b/w wire, so no power to the fcr and pump.
Cheers
Andy
OK. Try this make a good shorting link so you can short/link the Black/Pink wire to the Black/White wire at the ESR, make sure the FCR is installed. Switch on Ignition first then make the link. DO YOUR HEAR THE FUEL PUMP PRIME FOR APPROX 2secs.
Thanks Grum, I'll give this a crack and update here.
Cheers
Andy
1 hour ago, Grum
OK. Try this make a good shorting link so you can short/link the Black/Pink wire to the Black/White wire at the ESR, make sure the FCR is installed. Switch on Ignition first then make the link. DO YOUR HEAR THE FUEL PUMP PRIME FOR APPROX 2secs.
Sorry, just to be clear, is this bridge with the esr relay installed or removed?
Whatever is easiest to bridge the Black/Pink to the Black/White, we are effectively bypassing the relay. In or out makes no difference.
Ok, done that, no power still....
With the ignition on, and no bridge to b/w, I see full voltage at pink/bl
With the ignition on and the bridge to bl/w in place, I see only 1v at pink/Black and bl/w.
I do see full voltage (11 now after a quick hour or so on charge) on the black wire.
Is this heading towards Ducnuts theory?
OK Transfering the Blk/Pink wire power to the Black/White wire Kills the voltage at the Black/Pink wire Yes?
If that's the case And your not blowing your Main Fuse B then you have a bad joint between the Battery, through Fuse B, through to the 18P Blue connector then to the ESR.
Mate it's after midnight here.
If you are seeing a low voltage on the Black Pink wire at the ESR when ignition is ON. You need to follow the Black/Pink wire down to the Blue 18P connector where the wire then become a Red/White wire. Probe the Red/White wire and see if the voltage has gone higher if so then you've found the bad connection. If not move along the Red/White wire towards the Main Fuse B. Measure the voltage at the single wire joiner see if the voltage is higher there, then move to the fuse itself. Hopefully you'll find a place where the voltage jumps towards battery voltage and the bad connection.
Sorry heading off to bed.
Also if you had a short in the R/R it would take out Main Fuse B or be flattening your battery quickly with some kind of partial short, according to my drawing.
1 hour ago, AndyE
Is this heading towards Ducnuts theory?
What I know of some early 2000’s Hondas is if the ECM doesn’t see a minimal voltage (can’t remember the number, these days), it won’t trigger anything. For the shop I worked in, no-start bikes got put on a charger, as soon as they hit the table or a fresh battery went in, to shorten table time, for just this reason. I can’t say for certain if the same applies to 5th Gen VFR’s, though. I just know working with a fully charged battery eliminates a variable(s). It’s been many years, since I worked in a shop.
I applaud Grum’s knowledge, here.
Thanks Grum, appreciate the help. I'll trace those wires to the blue connector and follow it through as best I can. Sincere thanks for all the input and advice.
Cheers
Andy
ducnut, 20 July 2020 at 12:27 AM
What I know of some early 2000’s Hondas is if the ECM doesn’t see a minimal voltage (can’t remember the number, these days), it won’t trigger anything. For the shop I worked in, no-start bikes got put on a charger, as soon as they hit the table or a fresh battery went in, to shorten table time, for just this reason. I can’t say for certain if the same applies to 5th Gen VFR’s, though. I just know working with a fully charged battery eliminates a variable(s). It’s been many years, since I worked in a shop.
I applaud Grum’s knowledge, here.
Thanks mate. But he's loosing volts at the ESR and if the battery is at least able to drive his headlights he either has bad connections back from the ESR. Sorry it's a bit of a saga but need to get solid 12v at the Blk/Pink wire of the ESR.
Cheers. Bedtime for me!
Congratulations on choosing a nice all around riding machine. It’s a used 16 year old used bike so there will be something that needs attention. Definitely check stator and regulator but ground issues and a burned looking wiring around the battery can definitely cause problems like you have described. Get her running and enjoy.
I'll certainly try Legend! Unfortunately, Mrs E wanted new carpet so had to put the multimeter down and pick up the stanley knife instead this afternoon so no further forward yet.
Hopefully I can get it running soon, otherwise it'll be going back to Devon in a van!
Have you checked the blue connector to the front harness?
I'll ask again, has the front harness Recall work been done? The dealer punches a dot on either the top left or top right corner of the Vin ID sticker on the frame rail.( I don't remember what the other punch mark is for)
Just for shit's and giggles run a jumper ground from the front half of the ground wire in the blue connector to the frame, turn key on and see if pump energizes! Won't tale 15 minutes if your already digging thru everything.
Hi Baileyrock,
Thanks for chipping in on this, apologies for not responding directly before.
I think the work has been done judging by the additional earth wire. Pic of the plate attached, I think thats a punch mark on the top right?
1 hour ago, AndyE
I'll certainly try Legend! Unfortunately, Mrs E wanted new carpet so had to put the multimeter down and pick up the stanley knife instead this afternoon so no further forward yet.
Hopefully I can get it running soon, otherwise it'll be going back to Devon in a van!
I understand that!! My ‘07 quit on me on the freeway a little while back. The wiring around the battery was looking burned and frazzled but I kept putting off replacing it and eventually paid the price. In my case I decided to have it picked up and dropped it off at a Honda Powersports dealer for repair. Thank goodness for breakdown cover.
The dealer made a great repair, no further issues. As much as I hate dealers repair rates it wasn’t to bad a deal when I asked them to replace brake and radiator fluids, I even got to take a long test ride on a new wing!
They are nice machines that even after 11 years I’m still satisfied with.
Hi Andy.
Just to be sure, I think before going any further it's time we verified your battery is OR isn't OK. Battery voltage may not be an indication of its capacity, it's ability to provide current, and in fact most of the voltages you've mentioned have been low anyway!
So, attempt to start your bike. Does the Starter crank your engine over at a good rate? If YES we can assume there is enough capacity in the battery to be able to drive your EFI stuff at least to the point of just priming the Fuel Pump.
5 hours ago, AndyE
Hi Baileyrock,
Thanks for chipping in on this, apologies for not responding directly before.
I think the work has been done judging by the additional earth wire. Pic of the plate attached, I think thats a punch mark on the top right?
[image: 20200719_212742.jpg]
Sorry, I just now realized that you are in the UK and I'm not even sure if Honda even performed a Recall there!
Morning gents,
I belive the recall was done over here, and assume was completed on this bike given the extra ground on the blue connector that I've read about in other posts.
The motor turns over just fine, plenty of cranking power and all other electrical components work fine when connected such as lights etc.
I will however chuck the battery on a full charge, just to rule it out, and as ducnut said, at least its then a known qty.
Working from home today so might get chance to do a couple more tests over lunch.
Cheers
Andy
Ok, I think, thanks to all of your help we have found where the problem is.
Battery is fully charged and with the ignition on, I only get 1v on the pink and black wire at the esr. Tracing back to the blue connector I see continuity.
If I then test the red and white wire going into the blue connector (the wire that goes to the left fuse box) I get 11.7v. To me, this says the blue connector has a bad connection or short....right
Question, can I use a jump wire on the outside of the blue connector to test the theory without risking any damage. I.e. r/w to bl/p. I'm assuming I can as that's all the blue connector is doing anyway right?
So, how to fix it?! Clean? Replace?
Its the top left pin in the pic and looks brown and nasty.
Thanks all, feels like I'm almost there unless someone tells me its not that simple and what I'm seeing is a result of a faulty reg/rec?
Andy
[image: 20200720_173422.jpg]
I’ve got a similar problem and bought this to get the contacts clean of oxide/rust ..... I’ll let you know how I get on
BTW regular “contact cleaner” is isopropyl alcohol so all it does is wash mud off
cheers Thumbs, I happen to have a can of iso from my days of cleaning thermal paste off CPU's. Why that never entered my mind I dont know!
And she lives!
After cleaning the contacts it was still the same, but when probing the red and white wore to check voltage, I suddenly hear the pump fire up! She started after half a dozen cranks or so, and boom, running again!
So, question now is, dirty/loose contacts, or an underlying issue that caused it to brown up in the first place. Bearing in mind this bike is 16 yes old and has 46k miles on the clock.
You guys rock, thanks to everyone who contributed, grum especially, he put a lot of time into helping me out, for which I am very grateful.
Now its running, its going for a check over tomorrow evening with a proper mechanic and tech so they can sort that connector properly and give it the once over.
That connector is the 6th Gen’s Achilles heel.
They make a sanding tool (hobby shops have them) that allows one to run it in/out and sand the contact surface. Also, one could use an unpin tool to remove each pin/contact, service it, and reinsert it back into the connector. There are electrical-specific contact greases (Ox-Gard is one) I’d definitely smear into each pin. Lastly, I’d definitely add a frame ground forward of that connector.
10 minutes ago, ducnut
That connector is the 6th Gen’s Achilles heel.
They make a sanding tool (hobby shops have them) that allows one to run it in/out and sand the contact surface. Also, one could use an unpin tool to remove each pin/contact, service it, and reinsert it back into the connector. There are electrical-specific contact greases (Ox-Gard is one) I’d definitely smear into each pin. Lastly, I’d definitely add a frame ground forward of that connector.
This is what comes next. I won't feel confident until I'm sure that entire block is sound.
Thanks again.
Andy
Hi Andy.
Glad you found the voltage drop we were chasing and you have your bike running. I'm sure it's been a satisfying learning experience for you.
Now a permanent fix. That connector looks bad.
Here's what I would do. (The choice is yours)
In the life of my 4 bikes I've never needed to disconnect that connector.... ever.
So if it was my bike, I would completely eliminate the Blue connector by joining and sleeving each wire pair one by one. Either crimp with inline joiners or solder and sleeve.
You'll never have an issue with that plug again. There is a high current demand on that Blue connector with some of the wires, and has caused so many issues in the past. In my opinion, best to completly eliminate it.
Now, with your engine running you can measure your charging voltage at the battery to ensure stator and R/R are working properly.
Cheers and good luck with the bike.
Hi Grum,
It was very satisfying indeed to hear that pump spring into life.
I went back a bit later and it wouldn't start again. Pushed the red and white wire into the connector and away it went. I just need to be able to ride the bike about 7 miles to a friend who manages a workshop. I was thinking I can jump the 2 pins just to get me there. No issue with doing that I assume?
Good shout on eliminating the connector, I may well do that, looks to be a sensible move considering how often it seems to crop up in threads.
Will check the battery charge tomorrow, fairly hopeful it'll be OK.
Cheers
Andy
3 minutes ago, AndyE
Hi Grum,
It was very satisfying indeed to hear that pump spring into life.
I went back a bit later and it wouldn't start again. Pushed the red and white wire into the connector and away it went. I just need to be able to ride the bike about 7 miles to a friend who manages a workshop. I was thinking I can jump the 2 pins just to get me there. No issue with doing that I assume?
Good shout on eliminating the connector, I may well do that, looks to be a sensible move considering how often it seems to crop up in threads.
Will check the battery charge tomorrow, fairly hopeful it'll be OK.
Cheers
Andy
Before riding anywhere you want a good connection between the Black/Pink and Red/White wires. AND be aware you are working with HOT wires, that means permanently Powered direct to the battery. So when messing with them either pull the 30amp Main Fuse B OR disconnect a battery lead.
Yep, I've been pulling a battery lead off when messing with those, I'm not a fan of things that spark and go pop.
I'll chuck in a jump wire and fix it down good before I ride anywhere, should be OK to get my where I need to go. Then assuming the guys give it a clean bill of health it'll get a damn good clean and new foam for the seat....my butt was agony after 90 mins!
Cheers
Andy
2 minutes ago, AndyE
Yep, I've been pulling a battery lead off when messing with those, I'm not a fan of things that spark and go pop.
I'll chuck in a jump wire and fix it down good before I ride anywhere, should be OK to get my where I need to go. Then assuming the guys give it a clean bill of health it'll get a damn good clean and new foam for the seat....my butt was agony after 90 mins!
Cheers
Andy
Good stuff. Just let's know how the repair goes, then you can get to enjoying the glorious Vee4.
Cheers :beer: :wheel:
Dropped off to the workshop with no issues. Couldn't get the wire I intended to use to fit in the connector so ended up using a bit of garden wire....not ideal but it got me there😱✌
I actually bought this bike for a mate who isn't in a position to buy one. He hired a VFR a couple years ago and we rode to the Isle of Man and back via Wales over 3 days so I knew he'd be happy to ride one before I bought it.....but I wasnt counting on it breaking down on the way home!
I'll let you know what the techs say, but here's hoping this old girl has a few more miles left in her yet.
[image: 20200721_231638.jpg]
Yeppers,
Blue connector is the staring place any time the pump doesn't prime on a 6th gen!
I would clean the connector anyway, but would add a simple new ground wire to the frame from the front side of the harness as I suggest as a test. Just make it a soldered connection on harness and bolt it to the frame, if i remember correctly here are two 8mm head bolts that hold the coil or something right there under the fairing abouve the blue connector!
BR