Countershaft oil seal - b@stard thing!

So I’m slowly (VERY slowly) updating an engine on the bench (build thread to follow!) and have run into a problem fitting a new countershaft oil seal. It won’t bl00dy fit!  
 

Old seal needed drilling, couple of screws inserted and pulling. I’m talking vein-popping, red-faced and swearing type pulling!  
 

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Old seal next to new one. 

In fact it was a very strong seal and I really regret trying to replace it. Should have left the b@stard thing alone! 

Anyway, I bought a new seal and it didn’t quite fit. The pushrod and shift shaft seals went in beautifully. So what’s this guy’s problem? 
 

Anyway, the engine needs a countershaft seal so after much head scratching I decided to try fitting it. Lubed her up real good, found a jug with the right size opening and heaved like a man possessed. 

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Because it seems so big I couldn’t get it to go in square. One end always ended up slipping out and unsettling things. But it needed to go in so I persevered and pushed harder than a teenage boy with half a chance! 
 

Anyway, the result was awful as you’d expect. Much of the seal sheared off from trying to squeeze into the hole. 
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Comparison of old seal with the piece sheared off from the new one. That’s a lot of seal to lose on insertion! 
 

When I pulled the new seal out you can see how much of it has been sheared off when compared to a new one. 

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Drill 3mm hole and insert 4mm screws to pull on. 
 

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See how much of the lip is sheared off? You can see the metal part of the seal exposed. There’s almost no rubber there at all. 
 

Here’s a comparison of how much material is missing. See the torn seal next to the newest seal (3rd one now!).

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No such damage on the old seal. So how is this aperture so damn tight? Is the seal supposed to be so squeezed? How was the original seal fitted? 
 

Old seal has same size numbers marked on surface so it CAN be made to fit. Just need to work out how!!!
 

Anyone got ideas on how I can get this one in there? I’ve got visions of a piston ring clamp...

A buddy's did his 87 VFR recently.  The old seal was a BITCH to get out, very much like yours.  The new seal had a very small lip on the rear that appeared to be made to go into a groove when the 2 halves of the cases are mated (or maybe sit behind the machined bore?).  The new seal would not fit.  He trimmed the lip off, applied a very slight smear of Hondabond, and no issues.  Can't tell for sure if that's what's happening with your situation.  I had never seen that before, as I haven't had to replace any of my 86 VFRs. 

I wonder if sourcing a quality oil seal that has the right dimensions, but isn't the "Honda" part, is the route to go when not splitting cases.

Looking at your new seal tells me it is not intended to be press in but installed when cases are split. As the Captain advises try aftermarket seal if you do not want to go full Honda with tear down....

Reference pic is apparently from 1996 VFR 750

[image: AD051025-FDF0-4470-A632-A6659-B1-BE5-F1.]

Thanks for the replies, chaps. Sounds like you’re right: it’s not a press-in seal and needs to be installed as part of a case-split rebuild. 
 

Might follow captain 80’s advice and trim the lip off and apply some Honda bond (3 bond?). Failing that, find a slightly smaller seal...
 

This explains why I couldn’t find any instructions, neither in the Haynes nor in the Honda Service Manual. 
 

Why on earth did I decide to replace this part as “preventative maintenance“? Talk about stupid! 

Not stupid! Just a typical motorcyclist always wanting to muck about with your bike. I’ve headed down similar roads on many occasions.

1 hour ago, Stray

Thanks for the replies, chaps. Sounds like you’re right: it’s not a press-in seal and needs to be installed as part of a case-split rebuild. 
 

Might follow captain 80’s advice and trim the lip off and apply some Honda bond (3 bond?). Failing that, find a slightly smaller seal...

Not smaller but aftermarket like all balls or similar. They most likely would not bother with the lip, cheap enough to try. Shaving might work but I would rather have seal made for interference  fit...

Engine is already out and on the bench?  Split it and fix it right!

That is likely the best fix.  Before proceeding, I'd be sure to be very familiar with the reassembly procedure and parts availability - the main journal bolts are a mandatory replacement and require a specific tightening technique.  Either way, best of luck with it. 

Honda doesn't make seals, however.  They're almost always standard-sized industrial parts, like most of the bearings.  Thanks for the warning--I won't be tempted to do the same, now!

Ciao,

JZH

6 hours ago, Sparkie

Engine is already out and on the bench?  Split it and fix it right!

5 hours ago, Cogswell

That is likely the best fix.  Before proceeding, I'd be sure to be very familiar with the reassembly procedure and parts availability - the main journal bolts are a mandatory replacement and require a specific tightening technique.  Either way, best of luck with it. 

Gents, do you really think it’s worth splitting the cases (which is effectively a full disassembly and reassembly job) just to replace one seal? 
 

The words “regret” and “can of worms” come to mind. What on earth was I thinking by removing it in the first place? 

2 hours ago, JZH

Honda doesn't make seals, however.  They're almost always standard-sized industrial parts, like most of the bearings....

Right. Standard-sized doesn’t mean common though . You would be surprised what seal options they, Honda, have available in catalogs to order.

I would figure common seal may be available on aftermarket.

As far as case splitting, risks vs benefits, OPs call.

I have replaced one on a different bike the same way Captain 80's suggested, I think I used ThreeBond 1104 (which is the same as HondaBond, YamaBond etc.) and it is still in there after several years. I felt dirty doing it that way but the engine was in the bike. With the engine on the bench I would split the cases. If you secure the engine upside down you should be able to just pull the bottom off and leave the crank and transmission in place. I have done this before, again not on a vfr. It looks like there is a bearing retainer behind the clutch that bridges the cases so you will have to pull the clutch first. You will have to line up the shift forks when it goes back together, but not a big deal.  Good luck!                       

4 hours ago, Stray

Gents, do you really think it’s worth splitting the cases (which is effectively a full disassembly and reassembly job) just to replace one seal? 

Yes, but replace all the other seals and gaskets while you are at it.  

Question . Have you tried putting it in the freezer for a good half hour then tried fitting it ? Im thinking would the cold shrink it enough to fit ?

Just a thought.

Cold Shrink is not a technique to use on rubber, as it make it hard and brittle. Quite opposite, as making it hot so it becomes soft, playable for ease of installation. 

Looking at the FSM, it specs removal of the heads for this job.  IIRC it's at least partly due to the rear head overhanging a few of the case bolts.  There could be other reasons tho.  They're acessible with an end wrench but not with a torque wrench. Anyway,  clutch, flywheel and oil pump removal will also be part of it.  The journal bolts look to run $10 each with 8 required.  Replacement can't be skipped as they stretch and will never again clamp properly. It's a doable project, just requires attention to detail. If you replace the seal from the outside and it leaks,  you'll be pulling the motor again to ultimately do this anyway - tough call. If this motor were a little more conventional I'd say splitting would definitely be the way to go.  In this instance maybe try to get it in as is and see what happens.

In addition to chilling it, maybe a small piston ring compressor could help getting it started.  

I was planning on not messing with OP head, but you guys are making me...😇

Evaluating, Honda Engineering did not consider themselves with minor “leak” from the seal but by positively locating it within a case, preventing seal “blow out”. With the rear tire just behind it implications are obvious.... 

14 hours ago, Magneto

Shaving might work but I would rather have seal made for interference  fit...

To be clear, the rubber "lip" on the 87 VFR seal was like 1mm high and 1mm wide.  The rest of the seal looked like a normal oil seal.  After we trimmed the rubber, it was still a VERY hard interference fit. 

I would install a correctly sized, quality seal on a 86-87 all day long, and sleep just fine. 

Magneto, 2/19/2021 at 11:14 AM

Right. Standard-sized doesn’t mean common though . You would be surprised what seal options they, Honda, have available in catalogs to order.

I would figure common seal may be available on aftermarket.

You do have to step out of "retail" mode and find the appropriate trade suppliers.  ("All Balls Racing" is still retail.)  I know of several suppliers here in the UK who can supply bearings and seals by dimension or bearing number, but unfortunately I never dealt with that sort of thing when I lived in the 'States.  With so many Internet-savvy suppliers out there now I managed to find some extremely rare bearings for my ancient bandsaw entirely online.  I used www.123bearing.co.uk, which isn't a UK supplier, but was fully prepared to service the UK market from somewhere in the EU (France?)  Anyway, a few years back (er, 2005...) I sourced nearly all of my FP's chassis bearings from non-Honda sources.  This page includes the part numbers, dimensions and sources I used at the time:

https://www.vsource.org/VFR-RVF_files/BBearings.htm

Honda Parts Catalogues are quite helpful in mentioning the dimensions of most bearings and seals in the description, but some can only be identified by inspection of the actual part.  However, in my experience it is a rare Honda bearing or seal indeed which is so "bespoke" that it cannot be sourced from elsewhere.

Ciao,

JZH

22 minutes ago, JZH

You do have to step out of "retail" mode and find the appropriate trade suppliers.  ("All Balls Racing" is still retail.)  I know of several suppliers here in the UK who can supply bearings and seals by dimension or bearing number, but unfortunately I never dealt with that sort of thing when I lived in the 'States. ...

Perhaps... I would do that if facing dealer/ retail  availability issues. In real world I want my parts supply coming from sources where engineering decision of part dedication was taken for me. This is important for me particularly on safety critical parts.

Honda list another seal with the same dimensions (40x68x7.2) for the countershaft seal on the RC45, P/N 91207-MW4-003. Might be worth ordering one to see if it's the same seal without the lip. They wouldn't have 2 different part numbers if they were directly interchangeable, and there are not many ways you can make 2 same sized countershaft seals different. 

RC30 version as well   (40x68x7)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-VFR-750-R-RC30-NOS-BRAND-NEW-oil-seal-40-X-68-X-7mm-91207-MR7-003-51/362992900110?hash=item548410180e:g:fzkAAOSwOvZeq23f

5 hours ago, Dangeruss

Honda list another seal with the same dimensions (40x68x7.2) for the countershaft seal on the RC45, P/N 91207-MW4-003. Might be worth ordering one to see if it's the same seal without the lip. They wouldn't have 2 different part numbers if they were directly interchangeable, and there are not many ways you can make 2 same sized countershaft seals different. 

Thanks Dangeruss. Unless I’m wrong I think that’s the same part number as the 5th gen. 

5 hours ago, Captain 80s

RC30 version as well   (40x68x7)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-VFR-750-R-RC30-NOS-BRAND-NEW-oil-seal-40-X-68-X-7mm-91207-MR7-003-51/362992900110?hash=item548410180e:g:fzkAAOSwOvZeq23f

Thanks Captain. You’ve been immensely helpful with this. That seal has the same design as the 5th gen - has a protruding lip. I suspect the main n difference is it is 0.2mm shallower (no big deal) but the lip puts me right back to square 1. 
 

Got a piston ring compressor on order plus new seal (delayed for some reason) and will do some experimenting when they arrive. Frankly I don’t expect that to work but it merits a try. 
 

Failing that, I’ll follow Captain 80’s and Magneto’s advice to either cut off the lip or fit an aftermarket seal without one. Hondabond will make up the difference. Lots of motorcycles have flush countershaft seals so shouldn’t be a problem. 
 

It just doesn’t make sense to split an engine with 10k miles for one seal. The cost in replacement bolts and gaskets etc would be more than the engine! 
 

Then I’m going to post a very sternly-worded letter to Mr Honda...

No letter please 😉

Honda goes extra mile and we appreciate that,  n'est-ce pas?

The 5th gen VFR800 P/N is 91207-MR7-003 vs. RC45 91207-MW4-003, dimensions for both are (40x68x7.2).

The 5th gen part is the same used on every VFR750/800 from '90-'15, the other one only shows as used in the '94 RC45.

Looks like RC45 part has no lip, but not available. I usually get this kind of stuff from here: https://www.mcmaster.com/shaft-seals/ . Appears SKF #15922 will work.

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To help in difficult install cases like these, I usually grind 45-degree bevel on back of seal and use seal-driver to push it in. Gently hammering on exact centre really keeps it from rocking and going in crooked. Perhaps you can cut section of PVC tubing to clear output-shaft and use seal-driver?

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Thanks for clarifying the part numbers Dangeruss - I missed the detail.  
 

Good shout on the bevel, Danno. I was going to use a Stanley blade to cut off the lip. Do you recommend a better way? How did you grind yours? 

I use edge of angle-grinder disc. Clamp grinder in vice and angle seal just right and rotate through fingers. Practice on old seals.

Although in this case, slicing off lip-only with knife is better as you don't cut through rubber-layer entirely, causing it to peel off when installed. And piston-ring compressor is genius idea!!! 🙂Using some Hondabond as lube would probably help.

One thing to do is examine wear-groove created by previous seal on output-shaft. Then install new one slightly outwards or inwards from previous position so it doesn't touch at same groove.

EDIT: you can get straight-edged ones if cutting off lip didn't work.

Lancashire

https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p27009/40x68x7mm-Nitrile-Rubber-Rotary-Shaft-Oil-Seal-with-Garter-Spring-R23-/-TC/product_info.html

Hampshire

https://www.polymax.co.uk/catalog/product/view/id/183877/s/nitrile-oil-seal-type-a-metric-double-40-x-68-x-7/category/262/

also

https://123bearing.eu/section?family=4&fld_diametreinterieur=40&fld_diametreexterieur=68&fld_hauteur=7

There's options available such as double seals and alternate materials like viton for harsh chemicals. This isn't demanding application with high-RPMs, or high-pressure or high-heat, so I suppose basic NBR would be perfectly fine.

Thanks Danno and those links are pure gold! 

Many thanks for all this info guys.

Over the past year I have been bringing my '95 gen4 back to life after 10 years laid up.

Last Friday it went 4 miles to its MOT test. It passed the test. Then came 4 miles back.

On Saturday morning I had a small puddle of oil underneath that I traced to the output shaft seal. I had previously changed the shifter shaft seal for the same problem.

After reading this thread I now plan to shave down the lip on my replacement seal using the smooth wheel on a bench grinder to put a bevel on the edge at the same time.

All the alternative seals already have these bevels, but they wouldn't be needed if you are expected to drop it into a split case.

Whilst the side of the bike is apart I'm going to replace the rest of the rubber components in the area at the same time.

I expect to replace the clutch slave cylinder seal and the clutch pushrod seal. Have I missed anything?

All my parts are on order, they will turn up eventually. I think I know what to do, except for one thing...

If I pull that clutch push-rod out to remove the seal, will the rod be easy to get it back in again? Or should I work around it to replace its seal?

15 minutes ago, SEdwards

If I pull that clutch push-rod out to remove the seal, will the rod be easy to get it back in again? Or should I work around it to replace its seal?

No problem removing the clutch pushrod, you might want to put a compressible sleeve on it to reduce the rust and consequent damage to the seal ... the rubber boots from brake calliper slide pins work a treat filled with grease 

Today I trial fitted a new Honda seal inside out (with the lip facing outwards) just to test the compressive fit. 
 

Well it’s tight but does go in. 
 

If all else fails I’m guessing the seal could be installed inside out with the lip cut off and some 3 bond, no? Is there a reason it should be fitted one way rather than the other? 
 

It shouldn’t come to that as the seal will slide in nicely with the lip removed but I’m curious. I’m fact it might even be good to leave the lip on to give the 3bond something to hold into? 

EDIT: scratch the backwards seal idea. Pressure forces would be acting the wrong way and not pushing the outer lip against the bore. Seal should go in right way round. Thank you YouTube university! 

Thanks everybody for your input - your contributions have helped get this seal installed! 
 

Firstly, forget the piston ring compressor. Seal has a metal body so it can’t compress at all (no matter how hard I cranked)! Also, the compressor isn’t remotely slim enough to squeeze into the bore with the seal clamped inside it. 
 

I trimmed off the seal’s lip with a Stanley knife at 45* to leave a slight chamfer. This will make it easier to start the pushing. 
 

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Next, a bit of 3 bond on the OUTSIDE of the seal and a bit of grease on the INSIDE hole. The 3 bond doubles as lube to help the seal slide in the bore. 
 

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Easiest to just grease the shaft so the seal picks it up as you slide it over. Tricky to handle the seal with adhesive on the outside and lubricant in the inside! 

Then find a nice fitting cup/glass/bottle to drive the seal home by pushing against the outer edges. 
 

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If you’re using the wife’s favourite juice bottle and you crack the bottom with a hammer, best get your excuses ready beforehand! 
 

Seal was driven home about 0.5mm deeper than the old one to avoid any grooves already formed. You can see a tiny sliver of the 3 bond poking out from the sides. 
 

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Then I slathered a bunch of 3 bond over the outer mating surface to give it the best chance of holding fast. It’s ugly but will be completely hidden from view so if it works I’m happy! 

[image: 314E1BEB-996A-4402-8D7C-ED16EEBE065A.thumb.jpeg.115f05b82a175436fe9608364387a0e9.jpeg]
 

Careful not to get any on the sprocket cover/cage thingy gasket surfaces though...

We will find out how good this is when I eventually fire it up in a couple months or so. 
 

Some advice: if you’re doing this forget about cutting the lip off an OEM seal and just buy an aftermarket one without a lip. The cut seal’s edge kept wanting to roll off the metal frame as it squeezed into the hole. An aftermarket one would be more solid and unlikely to peel. 
 

Thanks again for your help and good luck to anyone else having a go! 

Glad you got this sorted.  That looks really good.  Please give us a long term update after you've gotten some riding in.