I just finished watching some Brit cop show where they have clandestine cop bike rider that is baiting unsuspecting motorcycle riders into speeding challenge. There is also term “antisocial riding” being dropped a lot. I was bit surprised to be honest...
Q to our Brit members, is that symptom of next level of state interference with recreational activities, atop of cameras and points or just TV tabloid piece?
How can someone else bait you into speeding? Aren't you in control of your own motorcycle?
Undercover police catching speeders is a thing in some police constabularies in the UK, but it's not universal. They tend to operate in the usual "hot spots" like the Cat & Fiddle Pass. They've got similar things in many European countries, e.g., France, where private contractors loaded up with ANPR and camera recording equipment drive around (speeding) on the motorways... Soon we won't have to worry about getting caught speeding on our motorbikes--we won't have any motorbikes!
Ciao,
JZH
2 hours ago, SparkieHow can someone else bait you into speeding? Aren't you in control of your own motorcycle?
Well, I am super easy to bait. That’s is why I never ride in group, just as a precaution. I have seen plain cars following and recording people it’s nothing new, but somehow notion that they would send dark rider to mess with and provoke people touches my nerve like true “antisocial behavior”.
I've never heard of that before, sounds like entrapment. Also, the cop can't break the speed limit either without breaking the law.
Given the general casual attitude towards speed limits and silencer legality in the UK, I'm surprised they'd go to that much trouble to catch bikers - standing by the side of most roads on a sunny day would be enough!
6 hours ago, JZHSoon we won't have to worry about getting caught speeding on our motorbikes--we won't have any motorbikes!
Ciao,
JZH
Sad, but true. Get out and ride 'em while you can . . .
2 hours ago, CogswellSad, but true. Get out and ride 'em while you can . . .
someday the manufacture and sale of gasoline will be prohibited by law....................
it's easy to find flagrant examples of anti-social riding on youtube, any group ride will suffice.
Nah. We will overcome.
22 minutes ago, squirrelmansomeday the manufacture and sale of gasoline will be prohibited by law....................
And all for nothing except to make the greedy billionaires even more billions.
Well, I remember the days before cellphones and digital cameras when the "social" aspect of motorcycle riding was speeding and to race anybody who wanted to race (back then on back roads in Germany) There were certain meeting locations where you could always find somebody "to go for a walk" and some good discussions afterwards. Life was good back then!
To me that term might imply things such as lane splitting at high speeds on freeways - or any 4 lanes for that matter, racing on suburban streets, doing wheelies through neighborhoods - things where there are a lot of people around and the activity is raising the risk level all out of proportion. Isn't that what might have been termed a hooligan? Out on deserted backroads where there isn't much besides deer and jackrabbits it's tougher to make the case as for the most part the risk is mostly rising only for the rider. As for being goaded in to a street race, each person has control of their right wrist and makes a conscious decision each moment they're riding. The old saying "think with the big head, not the small one" would seem to apply to that. Maybe that comes with age, dunno. :wink:
I do not like Orwellism labels being placed on daily benign activities. Perfect example with speed limits originally driven by fuel consumption but now carried over mainly for profit. Antisocial behavior in my book.
Big head? Such 19th century concept. We are driven by animal brain for any activity involving adrenaline... Hard wire.
"For profit" is a bit exaggerated. There is no getting around the fact that lower speeds are statistically safer, so "saving lives" will always be a powerful justification for reducing speeds--and for some people, that means at any price. We just have to elect the ones who think the price we pay now is already reasonable.
Ciao,
JZH
"There is no getting around the fact that lower speeds are statistically safer"
Surely you don't believe that! I want to see the study and parameters of that study. That ranks right up there with "Speed Kills" and
"Just Say No". 🙂
26 minutes ago, FJ12Ryder"There is no getting around the fact that lower speeds are statistically safer"
Surely you don't believe that! I want to see the study and parameters of that study. That ranks right up there with "Speed Kills" and
"Just Say No". 🙂
Yup. Catchy phrases and made up studies to drive agenda, often money making. Based on my observations expressway safe speed in Florida is about 80 to 90 miles per hour, that’s for open country road. We can not legislate it into law without loosing federal allocation of our own tax money for highways upkeep.
Line splitting another example, proven to be safer for riders, yet banned in most states based on false intuition argument. Forgot red light cameras increasing collisions at intersections?
On the other hand, hands off approach. Look at the helmet law, for years now free choice in Florida. I see some hard cores riding without one, while most do wear helmets on own reconnaissance.
yup, people aren't idiots and will drive at comfortable speeds. On highways designed decades ago for 70mph, modern vehicles have no issues with 80mph. Which happens to be average speeds on many European highways with no speed-limits anyway.
Looking at historical data, you'll see that each time speed limits are raised to be closer to natural comfortable speeds, fatalities decrease.
1. when national speed limit was raised from 55mph to 65mph fatalities went down. CHP was major supporter of increasing speed limit
2. Montana removed speed limit completely. During this time, traffic fatalities dropped to lowest levels since records were kept.
3. When politicians forced Montana to re-implement speed-limits, traffic fatalities doubled.
https://www.motorists.org/press/montana-no-speed-limit-safety-paradox/
https://laist.com/2018/12/12/speed_limits_going_up_in_la.php
Great post Danno, I enjoyed the Montana reference, such a great read!
From engineering point of view we have to unpack what designing the expressway for 70 miles per hour speed mean. Road specifications were made to allow vehicles with rudimentary suspension and no brakes and no tires (sorry American muscle car lovers) to navigate through it.
50 years later we drive science fiction space ships. Human factor remains though and people instinctively understand their limitations.
Yeah pretty common here, police have nothing better to do 😡
Worse in some euro locations. Baiting not necessary, but under cover cop bikes are common enough. I don't speed around strange bikes for this reason.
Talk about some antisocial riding. Some of the vids I have seen re feral bike riding groups/gangs in the USA is bang out of order & has started to develop a following in various Euro locations including the UK. They really need to sink those groups.
7 hours ago, FJ12Ryder"There is no getting around the fact that lower speeds are statistically safer"
Surely you don't believe that! I want to see the study and parameters of that study. That ranks right up there with "Speed Kills" and
"Just Say No". 🙂
There's something to this in corners, but not highway speed. All other factors combined, here in the military, "high corner speed" is the other factor after the obvious ones (inexperience, drinking, late night riding, no training, etc.).
Otherwise yeah...I feel safer at high speed on the highway than anywhere else, particularly when I am at least a few mph faster than the cars and moving around them vs. the other way around.
I did a couple VFR group rides the last time I owned this bike and they were great, because the VFR is a grown up bike that attracts grown up sport riders. (Which none of my non-rider friends believe, but...that's another story!) All of the other group rides I've participated in were dumpster fires where there were people riding way beyond the limits of the street or, worse...their own limits. Whether that's someone who is acting like it's a track day, or an inexperienced rider on a liter bike trying to push their boundaries and then slam on the brakes mid-corner...yikes.
I'll ride with people I know are good, or friends who are beginners and just want to ride around but not in a jack ass way. But that's about it, I have yet to come across an established group ride that's not a high risk event.
27 minutes ago, Mohawk...
Talk about some antisocial riding. Some of the vids I have seen re feral bike riding groups/gangs in the USA is bang out of order & has started to develop a following in various Euro locations including the UK. They really need to sink those groups.
Good observation Mohawk, but I think little off. We have civil rights demonstrations down here that are being performed on two wheels, with big event happening annually in Miami . It does create tension in enforcement community as people nonviolently but openly perform acts of civil disobedience. Backlash toward dirt/ dual bikes is one of reasons I am limiting use of my Husqvarna.
Similar undertones are in play in Europe, France comes to mind with frequent car burning events.
3 hours ago, ShipFixerThere's something to this in corners, but not highway speed. All other factors combined, here in the military, "high corner speed" is the other factor after the obvious ones (inexperience, drinking, late night riding, no training, etc.).
Otherwise yeah...I feel safer at high speed on the highway than anywhere else, particularly when I am at least a few mph faster than the cars and moving around them vs. the other way around.
I've always felt more comfortable moving a bit faster than traffic, and getting stuck in clots of cars makes me very uncomfortable. I feel that moving
a bit faster, maybe only a couple mph sometimes, allows me to act to avoid problems rather than re-act to an occurring problem.
yes, I prefer to be same or slightly faster than traffic. Can give it some throttle to get out of hairy situations. Such as someone moving into my lane without looking and seeing me.
If I was slower and behind them when they moved over, I may not be able to stop in time.
Many years ago I saw pie-chart at local CA DMV breaking down various funding sources. Biggest slice of pie, 60-70% of their operating budget came from... yep, you got it... ticket citations!
When traffic cameras came out as way to automate citations, many cities reduced yellow-light duration. Contrary to studies which show longer yellow increases intersection safety and lowers crashes.
The flip side of the argument is that the funding for public services that would normally be sourced from tax, can now be directed to things like universal health care, promoting and facilitating people to register and vote no?
One knows what the rules are, and if you have demontrable have broken it, you pay. Plain and simple.
Do not like the rules? Vote (that is if you are affluent eneough to vote).
And FFS, accept the result of a ballot. 🙂
If you do not like that, move to Myamar or Yemen and see how your life will improve...
PS: you may call me Socialist Euro Trash if you like, no problem with that 🙂
You come from small country and choose not to appreciate politics of scale or rather to ignore it Dutchy.
We are talking about continental scale political organism, similar to your European Union. Can your vote influence curvature regulation for bananas EU puts out? Somehow I am skeptical and Brexit confirms it... 😉
Moving about at safe speed is my natural right, and I do not like this being taxed, realization of the simple fact is a first step toward change.
Florida is actually pretty good with constitutional amendments being tools of direct democracy. We can’t change national regulations though...
9 hours ago, DannoXYZMany years ago I saw pie-chart at local CA DMV breaking down various funding sources. Biggest slice of pie, 60-70% of their operating budget came from... yep, you got it... ticket citations!
Yep - Book'em Danno................................Sorry couldn't resist! :laughing6-hehe:
3 hours ago, MagnetoYou come from small country and choose not to appreciate politics of scale or rather to ignore it Dutchy.
We are talking about continental scale political organism, similar to your European Union. Can your vote influence curvature regulation for bananas EU puts put? Somehow I am skeptical and Brexit confirms it... 😉
Moving about at safe speed is my natural right, and I do not like this being taxed, realization of the simple fact is a first step toward change.
Florida is actually pretty good with constitutional amendments being tools of direct democracy. We can’t change national regulations though...
Point of order: it was the Brits that pushed for EU rules on bananas.... :tongue:
Not really Duchy. Overreaching government types or rather unchecked burp-racy has no particular nationality. Trust me on that, whoever fixed bananas wasn’t voting for Brexit.... 😉
Well it could be worse, latest noise from an unthinking Police State supporter.
https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/antisocial-riding/
Re bananas & other NOT straight produce. Brits campaigned to Stop EU setting minimum size & straightness for Bananas & other crops. To allow some of our ex territories to continue selling produce to EU & not throw perfectly edible fruits away because it was not to a prescribed size or shape.
LOL, moment I heard this anti-s designation I knew some agenda is being pushed. Note we are already carrying trackers, we buy them on our own and pay for the service. All they want to be able to do is access the live data. I bet the app will be free. 🤪... wonder what group will be next - slowly but surely.
Re bananas. Apparently after a while it all become blurry enough to blame brits of starting whole fuss even if they were against it. Thank you for fact checking our Netherlander friend. Either way, point still remains, nobody voted or could possibly influence banana regulations.
Modern political agendas often come with some sort of code-word or phrase attached. When you 1st hear it you think to yourself "WTF is THAT"? "Micro-aggression" comes to mind. Loosely defined as "anything interpreted by a snowflake as violating their "safe space" that might make them feel uncomfortable." Possibly one's "too loud" exhaust pipe might make the millenial Prius driver uncomfortable, for which the penalty would be for the local SWAT team to be called in to surround you and your bike and put you face down on the ground with a rifle at your helmet while they cuff you. Afterward, your GoPro video of the incident will be removed from youtube and FB, your accounts canceled for the "misinformation" you posted. On Monday when you arrive for work you find that you've been fired from your job for your "inappropriate" social media posts. Not to scoff . . . that's only barely an exaggeration these days.
As for cell phones, I'm not sure when the are "off" that they actually are - it may be one is just disabling the human interface while the nefarious apps hum merrily away in the background. Probably why cell phone batteries are no longer (at least not easily) user removable. Traffic tickets could easily be issued that way knowing position (and hence the local speed limit) and speed calculated from GPS. It would be more difficult to prove that you were actually driving the car - but newer cars are probably getting around to that, too. This may become a reality once 5G becomes ubiquitous. This is an increasing reason why I prefer to ride in out of the way backroads where the above garbage is not present (at least not yet, anyway).
I think it's very hard to make the argument that speed, in isolation, kills, especially on the motorway /freeway etc.
Speed plus will get you though. Be it speed plus inexperience, unfamiliarity with the road, or meeting a car that has no idea you exist
Cars are so much safer these days, but the level of inattentiveness when driving is spectacular - anyone here not been knocked off, nearly taken out, or know someone who has been taken out by a car changing lanes right in front of you? I was only going 40mph but I still didn't have the room to stop or dodge.
I ride most places locally at pretty much the speed I feel comfortable at, which on occasions is in agreement with local laws. I accept that may at some point cost me money (amazingly, only once in 20 years), but I don't feel it puts me more at risk.
I drive my car much more at the legal road speeds, one because I'm not generally driving just for enjoyment, and two, messing up on a car is rarely a problem that confines itself to just you and your vehicle.
I don't know what the right thing to do with speed limits is. I'd like to say that, as has been said above, people are generally not idiots and will drive to their ability and road conditions by default. However, this was said on a VFR forum not a GSXR forum, and we wouldn't be riding what we ride if we didn't all have some sensible (and middle age) in us. Not all do.
I guess ultimately I'm glad we have the restrictions we do. It makes it safe to be out at legal speeds and have reasonable confidence that the many people driving on autopilot aren't going to kill me, and leaves me with the choice to crack on at higher speed if I want, assuming I'm paying enough attention to not get busted. The idea of thousands of people driving home knackered at higher speeds because they can does not fill me with optimism!
Worth noting that where I live, the chance of getting up to legal speeds in a car is frequently low owing to bad traffic, and we also have horrific road surfaces with many potential bike mauling potholes.
5 hours ago, moroseduckI think it's very hard to make the argument that speed, in isolation, kills, especially on the motorway /freeway etc.
Speed plus will get you though. Be it speed plus inexperience, unfamiliarity with the road, or meeting a car that has no idea you exist
Cars are so much safer these days, but the level of inattentiveness when driving is spectacular - anyone here not been knocked off, nearly taken out, or know someone who has been taken out by a car changing lanes right in front of you? I was only going 40mph but I still didn't have the room to stop or dodge.
I ride most places locally at pretty much the speed I feel comfortable at, which on occasions is in agreement with local laws. I accept that may at some point cost me money (amazingly, only once in 20 years), but I don't feel it puts me more at risk.
I drive my car much more at the legal road speeds, one because I'm not generally driving just for enjoyment, and two, messing up on a car is rarely a problem that confines itself to just you and your vehicle.
I don't know what the right thing to do with speed limits is. I'd like to say that, as has been said above, people are generally not idiots and will drive to their ability and road conditions by default. However, this was said on a VFR forum not a GSXR forum, and we wouldn't be riding what we ride if we didn't all have some sensible (and middle age) in us. Not all do.
I guess ultimately I'm glad we have the restrictions we do. It makes it safe to be out at legal speeds and have reasonable confidence that the many people driving on autopilot aren't going to kill me, and leaves me with the choice to crack on at higher speed if I want, assuming I'm paying enough attention to not get busted. The idea of thousands of people driving home knackered at higher speeds because they can does not fill me with optimism!
Worth noting that where I live, the chance of getting up to legal speeds in a car is frequently low owing to bad traffic, and we also have horrific road surfaces with many potential bike mauling potholes.
Agree with that just about 100%.
We each have to ride our own ride, based on our own experiences. Training helps and you really really have to know yourself and know when you are on it and when you are not. Trouble is, too many drivers/riders think they know they're good when they're actually not. And that's when incidents occur.
Personally, I never, ever speed in 20's, 30's or 40's. Above that, I'll use my judgement to decide what my speed will be but as was said earlier, I like to ride a couple of mph faster than the flow of traffic as I hate being co-speed with them as I feel like I vanish.
I do not think I can agree with general statement “safe at legal speed” claims. Note that we/ big we, are not safe at any speed. See carnage numbers just from US alone. Driving is a single most dangerous activity we are doing daily and deadly kinetic energy level is reached right away. Putting ourselves in more and more advanced cocoons make us complacent, but driving is still as dangerous as before people felt it is OK to text. Key is a personal responsibility, who here attempted to text while riding? Yet to see that on a highway... why is that? How to police “being here now”?
Also note that there's cause and effect here.
1. cause of crashes has to do with inattentiveness and mistakes (i.e. changing lanes without looking). Speed doesn't cause bad driving such as texting and talking on phone. In some cases, reducing speed-differentials between lanes with higher-limits reduces adverse interactions such as lane-changes.
2. effects of mistakes & crashes can be exacerbated with higher speeds sure. Hitting ground & concrete divider @ 75mph is worse than 50mph. But that's only effect after the real cause of incident has already been committed. Which really doesn't relate to speed. ALL of my sideswipes and people pulling out in front of me had occurred at low-speeds, 35-50mph on city streets.
In fact, only 4% of traffic fatalities occur on highway where speed is factor. Majority 75% of traffic fatalities occur on city-streets at intersections well below speed-limit anyway. Source: 1996 NHTSA, last time I really researched this and found numbers.
Amen to DannoXYZ comment comment above!
I like where this discussion is going.
To Dutchy's defense (related to speeding or antisocial riding) I think her is right on the point with you know what the rules are, if you get caught breaking them (speeding) you pay. No problem with that. (I grew up and rode a lot in Germany back int the day, raced police few times in my glory days and so on).
This is kind of equivalent to "is is only illegal when/if you get caught" in the US.
BTW, how did we end up with the curvature of bananas on antisocial riding again?
I definitely believe speed is a significant contributing factor. The faster you go, the less time you have to react/respond and the less margin you have for error. I had a close call awhile back where I almost T-boned an SUV, and neither one of us was doing anything illegal or stupid - if I had been going even 5mph faster, I might have hit.
According to https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/speeding "Speeding endangers everyone on the road: In 2018, speeding killed 9,378 people." and "For more than two decades, speeding has been involved in approximately one-third of all motor vehicle fatalities. In 2018, speeding was a contributing factor in 26% of all traffic fatalities."
1 hour ago, SamuelxI definitely believe speed is a significant contributing factor. The faster you go, the less time you have to react/respond and the less margin you have for error. I had a close call awhile back where I almost T-boned an SUV, and neither one of us was doing anything illegal or stupid - if I had been going even 5mph faster, I might have hit.
According to https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/speeding "Speeding endangers everyone on the road: In 2018, speeding killed 9,378 people." and "For more than two decades, speeding has been involved in approximately one-third of all motor vehicle fatalities. In 2018, speeding was a contributing factor in 26% of all traffic fatalities."
Yeah, but i bet all of those involved were breathing too so could you say that breathing could be a contributory factor? Of course not. Just because they were at a speed does not mean speed was a determining factor.
Inappropriate speed is a very serious factor, but who decides what inappropriate is? A speed limit is not necessarily set for what is appropriate, it is set based on the layout of the road and any historical and geographical features that might determine what a limit should be.
Not sure i agree with "it's not illegal until you are caught", that's utter bollox but i always work on the assumption that i shouldn't be doing anything I'm not prepared to answer for.
YMMV
3 hours ago, WaldAmen to DannoXYZ comment comment above!
I like where this discussion is going.
To Dutchy's defense (related to speeding or antisocial riding) I think her is right on the point with you know what the rules are, if you get caught breaking them (speeding) you pay. No problem with that. (I grew up and rode a lot in Germany back int the day, raced police few times in my glory days and so on).
This is kind of equivalent to "is is only illegal when/if you get caught" in the US.
BTW, how did we end up with the curvature of bananas on antisocial riding again?
Well, lets be civil here Wald 😂🤪 Duchy is a good man!
Why bananas? It’s an internal EU thing showing power of bureaucracy, over reaching and unchecked by democratic process . Farrage beat Brussels with them bananas over the head while leading popular Sasenach revolt against EU.
I used it on Duchy to counter his argument that we, regular US voters have ability to influence federal speed limit guidelines.... mainly as much as him being able to influence banana curvature guidelines on HIS federal level in Brussels 😉
dutchy is a VERY good man !!
and i'd like to add that riding with any muffler i can hear from half a mile away is also anti-social.
2 hours ago, MagnetoWell, lets be civil here Wald 😂🤪 Duchy is a good man!
Why bananas? It’s an internal EU thing showing power of bureaucracy, over reaching and unchecked by democratic process . Farrage beat Brussels with them bananas over the head while leading popular Sasenach revolt against EU.
I used it on Duchy to counter his argument that we, regular US voters have ability to influence federal speed limit guidelines.... mainly as much as him being able to influence banana curvature guidelines on HIS federal level in Brussels 😉
Oops! Did not intend to make Dutchy a "her" sorry about that.
The other points taken as well.
Sounds like Dutchy would fit in fine here in Socal. Come on down.
Probably want to avoid Texas though. 😀
3 hours ago, squirrelman...
and i'd like to add that riding with any muffler i can hear from half a mile away is also anti-social.
Not in the South, it ain’t. It’s considered music here 😉
37 minutes ago, MagnetoNot in the South, it ain’t. It’s considered music here 😉
mostly to your ears alone
trump country no wonder
FREE THE PEOPLE!!! :tongue:
And let everybody do whatever they feel they are entitled to.
Not by law of course, because that will always be a compromise. And we cannae have that...
Me, me, me!
Let's be a bit more "verdraagzaam" and take matters with "een korreltje zout"... :beer:
8 hours ago, squirrelmanmostly to your ears alone
trump country no wonder
Personally I do not care about music much but exhaust music is important to people down here. Live and let live 😉
trump-ets 😝
46 minutes ago, DutchyFREE THE PEOPLE!!! :tongue:
And let everybody do whatever they feel they are entitled to.
Not by law of course, because that will always be a compromise. And we cannae have that...
Me, me, me!
Let's be a bit more "verdraagzaam" and take matters with "een korreltje zout"... :beer:
Nein, nein, nein. Ales verboten.... 😂I
18 hours ago, SkidsYeah, but i bet all of those involved were breathing too so could you say that breathing could be a contributory factor? Of course not. Just because they were at a speed does not mean speed was a determining factor.
Looking back at what I wrote, it looks like I was saying "always" (not sure if that's what you have a problem with). Fwiw, I didn't mean that, I meant to say and should have added "often". The internet is chock full of video footage showing accidents that occurred where/when a driver/rider was going too fast - too fast for conditions; too fast for vehicle capabilities; too fast for driver/rider skill level; etc.
Other times, it's simply a matter of wrong place/wrong time.
(1996) https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1996-09-20-mn-45651-story.html
(the other week) https://ktla.com/news/local-news/off-duty-l-a-county-deputy-killed-by-flying-tire-on-5-freeway-another-deputy-hospitalized/ (the chronology is incorrect as reported - I was told that the other accident happened first, which caused the wheel to come loose from one of the vehicles involved and fly over the divider)
Fair enough. I'm just sick of all the headline "Speed Kills" ads the Govt puts out over here. Strictly speaking it's true: If we all did zero mph on our bikes, there would be a lot fewer deaths but then what would be the point of living?
We're all different...different skill levels, decision-making ability, eyesight, reaction times, risk awareness, awareness in general etc etc, so trying to saddle all motorcycles with a speed kills nametag is wrong to my mind. In over 300k miles on VFR's, I've never been stopped by the police, never caused an accident and only been involved in 2 no-fault accidents so I reckon that whatever I'm doing, I'll carry on doing it. Doesn't mean my number wont come up someday but I try my best to enjoy my riding, including spirited when I deem it safe enough for me.
There are some riders (and drivers) who's self-belief vastly outweighs both their skill and luck. I just hope they don't involve me in their crashes.
Note that U.S. has some of best road-infrastructures out there on average. More miles of flat, clean highways than anyone else.
Our speed-limits are also amongst lowest for amount of open-road straight highways we have.
Yet, our deaths per 100,000-miles/person is higher than other countries with worse roads and higher speed-limit. I just think U.S. drivers on average are not as skilled as Europeans and Asians where taking driving-class is required along with 100% passing on skills-based test.
I remember taking BMW driving-school decades ago. One of exercises is to play follow-the-leader around track and stay no more than 15m behind car ahead. Then halfway-through, they start tossing luggage from lead-car and you have to avoid luggage AND stay on their tail. If we had those kinds of training here, I bet fatalities would drop tremendously!
https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2016/11/30/13784520/roads-deaths-increase-safety-traffic-us
We are barely better than Africa and former Eastern-bloc countries!
Thing is we do not have mass transport and everybody is driving, even the ones unable to get driver license to a proper standard known from other countries. Our driver ed is a joke on the top of that as you mentioned.
Followed a driver today who suddenly slow down in left line, then I noted two hand movements fixing hair, long hair. Obviously she had to slow down to a crawl to fix her hair. Safety first!...
4 hours ago, DannoXYZNote that U.S. has some of best road-infrastructures out there on average. More miles of flat, clean highways than anyone else.
Our speed-limits are also amongst lowest for amount of open-road straight highways we have.
Yet, our deaths per 100,000-miles/person is higher than other countries with worse roads and higher speed-limit. I just think U.S. drivers on average are not as skilled as Europeans and Asians where taking driving-class is required along with 100% passing on skills-based test.
I remember taking BMW driving-school decades ago. One of exercises is to play follow-the-leader around track and stay no more than 15m behind car ahead. Then halfway-through, they start tossing luggage from lead-car and you have to avoid luggage AND stay on their tail. If we had those kinds of training here, I bet fatalities would drop tremendously!
https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2016/11/30/13784520/roads-deaths-increase-safety-traffic-us
We are barely better than Africa and former Eastern-bloc countries!
I wonder if the study compared to miles travelled per year on average for US vs other countries?
Nonetheless, other contributing factor is that intersections are highly prone to accidents, and in Europe, they have mastered roundabouts. In addition, our vehicles are on probably twice the size and weight which probably contributes to increase in deaths especially for motorist vs bikers. Then, you have lane splitting pretty much legal in most European countries..
Well . . . here 'ya go (link, below). Things that were unthinkable just a few months / a year ago are now closing in on reality. Big Brother - the Police State (oh, wait, I though we were defunding . . . apparently that depends on who's doing what). At any rate a couple of quotes from the article "We need to think differently if we are going to put a stop to the problem once and for all . . . " and "Northumbria’s police and crime commissioner wants ‘trackers’ to be fitted to all motorcycles to help tackle the problem of bike-related anti-social behaviour." (emphasis added) The last, right out of the title of this thread. Apparently riding some undefined amount over the speed limit is "anti-social", but smashing / burning buildings and destroying livelihoods if not lives is not . . . the new World Order has arrived.
https://advrider.com/police-commissioner-wants-trackers-on-all-motorcycles/
Somebody correct me if I am wrong but there is lots of lead piping in Northumbria?
Speaking of lead, methinks that if that came to pass, that sale of lead foil would skyrocket. Just wrap the unit in it and go about one's business. Or, just unplug the stupid thing. If it can't send or receive they won't know a thing. I'm no squid - but I ride to get away from this garbage - now they're moving toward putting it right in our hip pocket. It wouldn't surprise me that new cars now being designed will come with this built in. Probably just a matter of time . . . :ohmy: :pissed:
Cars are different in a sense that as soon as autonomous capabilities are fully developed human factor will be taken out entirely in the name of safety and efficiency.
FJ12Ryder, 4/10/2021 at 2:27 PM"There is no getting around the fact that lower speeds are statistically safer"
Surely you don't believe that! I want to see the study and parameters of that study. That ranks right up there with "Speed Kills" and
"Just Say No". 🙂
Sorry, I'd thought it was obvious. Most car-related accidents happen on normal roads, rather than motorways, where speeds are lower but the dangers are much greater. Do you not agree that motorways are "safer" than city streets?
Accordingly, citing statistics proving that motorways are "safer" than the roads where most of the accidents occur seems a bit pointless, as those types of roads do not feature in most of the accidents.
So if we look only at speeds on normal roads, where the problem is, it becomes (I would hope) logically clearer that when that traffic moves faster and the hazards remain the same, the danger increases. Out in the sticks, higher speed matters much less.
Ciao,
JZH
2 hours ago, MagnetoCars are different in a sense that as soon as autonomous capabilities are fully developed human factor will be taken out entirely in the name of safety and efficiency.
We call them trains and trams here :tongue:
Here we call them nut wagons... 😛
9 hours ago, CogswellSpeaking of lead, methinks that if that came to pass, that sale of lead foil would skyrocket. Just wrap the unit in it and go about one's business. Or, just unplug the stupid thing. If it can't send or receive they won't know a thing. I'm no squid - but I ride to get away from this garbage - now they're moving toward putting it right in our hip pocket. It wouldn't surprise me that new cars now being designed will come with this built in. Probably just a matter of time . . . :ohmy: :pissed:
You don't have to wait, think OnStar and LoJack. Heck people pay for the privilege of being tracked.
2 hours ago, JZHSorry, I'd thought it was obvious. Most car-related accidents happen on normal roads, rather than motorways, where speeds are lower but the dangers are much greater. Do you not agree that motorways are "safer" than city streets?
Accordingly, citing statistics proving that motorways are "safer" than the roads where most of the accidents occur seems a bit pointless, as those types of roads do not feature in most of the accidents.
So if we look only at speeds on normal roads, where the problem is, it becomes (I would hope) logically clearer that when that traffic moves faster and the hazards remain the same, the danger increases. Out in the sticks, higher speed matters much less.
Ciao,
JZH
Okay, I kind of see what you're referring to, and I won't deny that hitting a bridge at 50 mph is potentially more lethal than at 20 mph. I guess I just bristle when they make the statement that slower is "safer" than faster, and they use that as an excuse to ticket you for being "unsafe", or as a reason to lower speed limits to unrealistic speeds.
Cogswell, 4/16/2021 at 4:29 AMAt any rate a couple of quotes from the article "We need to think differently if we are going to put a stop to the problem once and for all . . . " and "Northumbria’s police and crime commissioner wants ‘trackers’ to be fitted to all motorcycles to help tackle the problem of bike-related anti-social behaviour." (emphasis added) The last, right out of the title of this thread. Apparently riding some undefined amount over the speed limit is "anti-social", but smashing / burning buildings and destroying livelihoods if not lives is not . . . the new World Order has arrived.
https://advrider.com/police-commissioner-wants-trackers-on-all-motorcycles/
I don't know what the language policy on this website is, and so will go with F@£&#@&#K that guy.
Discriminating arse hole. Probably the kind of person who also believes that its OK to stop and search black people for no reason because, you know, they're probably up to something.
The police attempts at over-reach in this country is starting to really show.
Don't worry,
(website is, and so will go with F@£&#@&#K that guy.
Discriminating arse hole)
it will never happen in the UK. Just some politico trying to drum up local interest ahead of local government elections. Lots of noise but no real traction. Just think it through: trackers on vehicles, what type of vehicles, all vehicles, and speed tracking; whose going to police all that. Ideas are fine but implementation costs effort and money. Bit of a laugh really