VFR Discussion Group -> Dumped it

As some you may recall (or not, I'm quite forgettable) I started riding last April.  New rider, used VFR.  Lots of maintence work.  I've been VERY conservative while riding.  Moderate speeds, mostly day time, extream defensive riding.  I've read everything I can get my hands on for riding information.  That strategy has saved my butt more than a few times.  The one thing I had yet to do was take the MSF IRC course.  Scheduling was a huge problem.  In Charleston it is only offered on Friday nights (classroom) and Saturdays (riding).  I teach karate, and always have my Fridays and Saturdays consumed.  Well, after a year of training I finally got someone ready to take over my classes for a weekend.  Finally found a weekend that also had an IRC scheduled.  Got out and took it.
It really is a great course.  I've taken various driver education courses before and this rider course was 1000% more informative and helpful.  I actually feel that I've learned something.  I was also very humbled.  After 8000 miles of riding, my knowledge of my bike was a lot less than I had hoped.  Throttle control was my weakest point.  My VFR just does not want to be anywhere between idle and 4K.  Makes for a very sore clutch hand and some strange looks from the other people on the course.
So, how did I dump it you ask?
Before every exercise the instructors clearly explained the various challenges and dangers we would face.  Some of the class had dropped thier bikes during slow turns or pause and gos.  Cruisers all, and they all had crash bars.  No worries.  I decided to dump mine a little faster.  The drill was a faster (15-20 mph) 90 degree right hander.  Half way through the turn we were supposed to stand the bike up and come to as quick a stop as possible.  We had done the higher speed turn work already and I was very comfortable with the turn and the lines to follow.  I was probably a little to comfortable.  I came into the turn a little hot.  When I stood the bike up to stop I didn't get it completly up before I started braking.  You can imagine the result.  The front tucked and spit me right off the bike.  It happened faster and far more violent that I would have thought.  Got a bit of rash on the right front plastic (all three peices, ugh), bent up the rear brake and front brake levers a good bit.  My wingrack took the brunt of the rear end damage, so nothing serious back there.  I was fine, and the instructors did a really good job of helping me work through what I did and how I should deal with it.

All in all it was a very good experiance.  I'm very thankful I learned that lesson on a closed course at low speeds.  It would have sucked to dump it on the street at 2 to 3 times those speeds.

Now I get to figure out why one of my front brakes is dragging.  I just finished working on those damn things!

Ride safe

Sorry to hear about that, no doubt any time you dump it, it sucks. I'm curious, the msf course I took, at least the entry one, not advanced, they supplied the bikes. Maybe you took the advanced? The course I was in a *number* of people dumped the bikes, and some didn't pass. And some that did I'd be afraid to ride with. But, as you say, I would highly recommend the course, and I look forward to taking the advanced one. Good luck with getting everything fixed, hope it's not too problematic.

Always sorry to hear about a fellow member laying down their bike.  Glad you were not hurt.  You are wise to take the MSF.  If it makes you feel any better, I bought a brand new '03 VFR and dropped it in my best friends driveway!  I did not secure it properly and when I turned to walk away it fell over.  Mutilated the left and upper fairing, broke the clutch, mirror and bar end cap, and bent the shifter.  Bike had only 3200 miles.

Hope you get your brakes working properly as they are the most important part of the bike!!

Bummer. I took the course on the Honda 250. I went back to the course after I got my VFR and ran though the drills. Some I was doing better while many I had my hands full. As I was practicing my figure 8's in a box. I looked up and saw a car and grabbed the front brake while the front wheel was in a slow turn. I fought that beast the whole way down till I saw I was not going to win. I shoulder rolled and popped up on my feet. Full Textile gear and boots. The girl was a rider and was just coming over watch. Good news she knew how to get the beast up off the ground.
Maybe the brakes on yours got compresed pass the usual point and you have some rust on the piston. Or they took a direct hit.

Quote

Before every exercise the instructors clearly explained the various challenges and dangers we would face... �Some of the class had dropped thier bikes during slow turns or pause and gos.... I was fine, and the instructors did a really good job of helping me work through what I did...

Soleman, your only mistake was buying into something you should have passed on. You were had like like countless others.

I simply cannot understand why the MSF includes drills that they KNOW will result in riders dropping their bikes. And when it happens over and over, they refuse to consider they may be doing something wrong. I'm a professional instructor and I find this practice beyond stupid.

An MSF instructor "clearly explaining the challenges and dangers" doesn't in any way justify asking riders to do things that will result in accidents. I've heard so many of these stories I'm sick of the MSF. Maybe they should have a warning somewhat like Racing Schools use, "Attending this class and doing as the instructors ask may result in a crash. We don't care. We designed the calss that way on purpose."

Are they THAT determined to teach skills they want to cover they are willing to use caveman teaching methods?

Can they not figure out another better way? (I damn sure could!)

Are they insane?

The MSF's approach is amateurish and unsound. Would any of us offer to teach a friend to ride and ask them to do drills that very well could lead to them dropping their bike?

It amazes me that someone hasn't been hurt following their directions and sued the MSF into stopping these practices.

The MSF has appalling teaching methods. How long is this going to continue, riders completing one of their courses with a messed up idea that they screwed up and maybe even a damaged VFR? :pissed: �:pissed: �:pissed:

Y'know... shit happens.

I'm not so sure the drill is flawed.  Like many other drills (and the corresponding street riding scenarios), it requires proper execution.  You stated that you applied brake before the bike was upright, in contrast to the instructions.  I am familiar with this drill; I took the MSF in April.  You definately got the worst case scenario of failing to execute as per the instructions - that's why the drill exists.  It sucks it was your bike, though... It is true that you are putting yourself in high-risk scenarios by performing the drills and failure to perform as instructed may lead to a dump.  I did my MSF on a Yamaha Virago 250 (what a POS!) and I was fortunately mishap free (but I sucked on the 8-in-the-box; I do it better on my VFR, believe it or not).  This is a skill a street rider *MUST* have - you can't get it without practice.  You can't expect that such practice will always be safe.

An expensive mistake, but at least there wasn't an oncoming car to hit you or run you over when you dumped, as might very well be the case on the street.  Expensive?  Sure.  Dollars to donuts your insurance company will give you grief.

I feel ya, my friend.  My first crash on the street was a result of low skill in this exact maneuver.  I'd only had the VFR over a month (and 1100 miles) and I got cut off whilst entering the freeway on a 90-degree turn (uphill, no less).  A Porsche Boxter put itself in my turn arc.  Of course, there are three things "right" to do in such a scenario: (1) increase radius to avoid, (2) decrease radius to avoid, and (3) stand up and stop [continue on tangent to turn and apply full brake].  The MSF drill is, of course (3).  Now, maybe Freddie Spencer can perform technique (2) by applying front brake at a high lean angle - not me.  Had I followed the MSF drill and stood it up and applied brake, the outcome might have been different.

Some learning experiences are painful.  Others are expensive.  Many are both.  I'm glad for you that this "mistake" is a learning experience of any classification... because there are many mistakes on motorcycles that prove to be the rider's last.

Quote (strongbird @ Sun, 16 Jan. 2005 12:31:00)

a. Soleman, your only mistake was buying into something you should have passed on. You were had like like countless others. I simply cannot understand why the MSF includes drills that they KNOW will result in riders dropping their bikes. And when it happens over and over, they refuse to consider they may be doing something wrong. I'm a professional instructor and I find this practice beyond stupid. b. The MSF's approach is amateurish and unsound. Would any of us offer to teach a friend to ride and ask them to do drills that very well could lead to them dropping their bike? c. The MSF has appalling teaching methods. How long is this going to continue, riders completing one of their courses with a messed up idea that they screwed up and maybe even a damaged VFR? :pissed: �:pissed: �:pissed:

a. An advanced riding course includes exercises that might result in you falling down in you don't do it right. Like Soleman said, better to find out what you don't know at 30 rather than 70.

b. No, and the result is riders who get 'taught' how to ride but learn little more than basic balance. It's a fact - the majority of motorcycle accidents involve riders who did not have any formal training in operating a motorcycle.

c. Soleman DID screw up, and understands exactly what he did wrong, which is to grab too much front brake while still turning. Riding a motorcycle is a kinesthetic activity which requires actual riding time to practice - perhaps you would like to suggest an alternate training method that would effectively teach someone not to brake and turn at the same time.

A SMART goal for driver training would be:

Specific
Measurable
Achievable
Realistic
Tangible or timely

Quote

a. An advanced riding course includes exercises that might result in you falling down in you don't do it right.

Safe-T, this is exactly the first part of my point. I see we agree the MSF is using drills that they can expect will cause many riders to fall.

The second part of my point is that there are better teaching methods and those should replace those that the MSF uses.

I think the real reason the MSF does things the way they do is that they are bound and determined to teach skills and they hurry riders through the drills. There are better ways to teach the drills but they require more time and time is somthing they don't have enough of. It might take several weekends to use solid teaching methods and get large groups of riders to exicute the drills without allowing large numbers of riders to fall.

The MSF is very good at getting people to accept the premise that it is their fault if they fall. They didn't follow directions. That is poor teaching to fail to do your job and blame the students. A good teacher teaches the skills and students succeed. A poor one sets up too many for failure and then blames the students.

I'm not entirely against the MSF. Right now they are pretty much the only game in town and for those fortunate enough to negotiate the drills with poor instruction, there is a benefit. How the MSF can just dismiss the many riders that fall with a wave of the hand and a "I told you not to do that" is a mystery to me.

I think they will change this practice. I only wish it were sooner rather than later.

Edit: I agree with your SMART idea.

Specific (MSF Yes)
Measurable (MSF Yes)
Achievable (MSF NO, too many fall)
Realistic (MSF NO, same)
Tangible or timely (MSF NO, give the riders better instruction and more time or don't do drills that make riders fall.)

Quote (strongbird @ Sun, 16 Jan. 2005 13:47:00)

a. I see we agree the MSF is using drills that they can expect will cause many riders to fall. b. There are better ways to teach the drills but they require more time and time is something they don't have enough of. It might take several weekends to use solid teaching methods and get large groups of riders to execute the drills without allowing large numbers of riders to fall. c. A good teacher teaches the skills and students succeed. A poor one sets up too many for failure and then blames the students. d. I think they will change this practice. e. I agree with your SMART idea. Specific (MSF Yes) Measurable (MSF Yes) Achievable (MSF NO, too many fall) Realistic (MSF NO, same) Tangible or timely (MSF NO, give the riders better instruction and more time or don't do drills that make riders fall.)

a. No, we don't agree. It is a reasonable expectation that a certain proportion of students will not be able to complete a particular manoeuvre without falling, which is exactly the reason why training courses require a waiver.

Certainly this percentage could be reduced with further training, BUT....

b. This would require more money. In Europe it is not uncommon for people to spend thousands of dollars on driver training - this is the accepted norm. In North America, people won't even take the courses when they are FREE. Sure, we should all take 100+ hrs. of on bike training but if you think a $4000 motorcycle course will fly in NA, go for it.

The problem is that people are too knowledgable about the risk of operating motor vehicles. They know that in 2001, in a country of �4,903,056 registered motorcycles, only 3,197 of them will be killed and another 60,000 injured. This means the invidual risk of being killed or injured in any given year is 63,197 divided by 4,903,056 - roughly 0.0129 per cent. In other words, so negligible that it scarcely exists - both in terms of real and perceived threat. To make things worse, none of their friends or neighbors have died or been injured on a motorcycle either, since the chance of that happening is 63,197 divided by 286,196,812 - roughly 2.20816575692674033000758932283285e-4 per cent.

For 63,179 motorcyclists the chance of being in a collision was 100 per cent, although for each INDIVIDUAL rider the chance of being in a collision was almost non-existant.

c. A good teacher does their best given the boundaries of their environment. Why do you think the average motorcycle instructor only teaches for 2.5 yrs ? After awhile you start to wonder if you are really making any difference, the pay is not that great, and it takes up your free time when you could be out riding....

d. I honestly doubt it. The MSF is a pretty staid organization and mighty proud of what they do. Change requires incentive, and I don't see any for the MSF to change.

The saddest part of this discussion is a Canadian review conducted in 1996 that concluded there is "no compelling evidence that rider training is associated with reductions in collisions." Mayhew, D.R. and Simpson, H.M. 1996. Effectiveness and role of driver education and training in a graduated licensing system. Ottawa, Ontario, Canada: Traffic Injury Research Foundation.

As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make 'em drink.

e. SMART analysis

Achievable - Perhaps you mean it's not achievable to a level acceptable to you given the current boundaries and limitations of the MSF. I would be interested to know what you might consider an 'acceptable' failure rate...

Realistic - Again, I'm sure you mean not realistic given the current situation. Believe me, it had better be realistic that a motorcyclist should know how to use their brakes properly, since stopping is inevitable.

Tangible or timely - A goal is tangible when you can experience it with one of the senses. Timeliness in SMART goals is sometimes called 'time-framed', meaning that you have a fixed period of time to complete a task in order to provide impetus to both start and complete that task. In both cases, all motorcycle courses where you actually ride a bike meet these requirements.

None of your suggestions (better instruction, more time, or dropping the exercise) are reasonable changes. The first two I already addressed, and dropping the exercise that teaches a necessary skill (as determined by the Hurt Report) because someone might fall while learning it is like saying humans should stop trying to walk because we are more likely to hurt ourselves falling from an upright posture. �

:rant:

15 yrs. of motorcycle training and I've become an opinionated old bastage �:doh:

Solman, at least you didn't get hurt. Sounds like minor damage to the bike. Lesson learned. Ride on and don't do that again.  :twist:

I would have mentioned braking progressively, and not just slamming them on. I often brake deep into a turn, but at a much reduced rate. A brake dragging on one side will cause the bike to stand up suddenly as you experienced, so that may be a contributing factor. Good luck, and glad you are ok.

VFR4Lee - Thanks.  I certainly don't intend to do it again.

Edited to add: ULEWS - Thank you as well.  Yes, a lighter touch would have been much less eventful.  My error was in perceiving where the bike was.  I really thought I was straight up and down when I got on the brakes.  After getting my brake levers sorted I ran the drill 5 or 6 more times.  The differance between up and sorta up was pretty small, but certainly noticable.

To drop my two cents on the MSF tangent emerging here -  There is no perfect training avalible.  The problem is no one can really learn without experiance.  When experiance is too expensive or too dangerous, we do the next best thing: train.  Any kind of training tries to simulate real world as well as it can.  For dangerous activies, good training has some inheirent danger as well.  Is MSF good or bad?  I don't know.  I do know it is dangerous, but not nearly as dangerous as real world experiance is.  I understand and accept the risks.
I'm learning to ride on a 13 year old bike.  If I destroy it, I'm out less money than some people spend on insurance for a year.  
The physical risks are acceptable to me as well.  I take greater risks just riding to work in an average day.  I probably take larger risks in my karate sparring.  At least on the road I don't have EVERYONE aiming for me.

Now, does MSF make the apparent risks clear: No, not really.  The brand new riders that show up really don't have a clue.  The first time one of the shiny new Harleys dropped, the "members only" cruiser crowd got a bit more tense.  I certainly wouldn't risk a 20K bike on a training course and I suspect they wern't willing to either.  Unfortunatly the proper communication of risks is a dual edge sword.  If MSF makes the risks crystal clear on the outset, the attendance is bound to be much lower.  Having less riders with any kind of training just doesn't feel like a good thing.

I don't have the answers, but I do appreciate having the MSF courses avalible to me.

Quote (solman244 @ Sun, 16 Jan. 2005 19:00:00)

1.Is MSF good or bad? �I don't know. �I do know it is dangerous, but not nearly as dangerous as real world experience is. �I understand and accept the risks. 2. Now, does MSF make the apparent risks clear: No, not really. If MSF made the risks crystal clear on the outset, the attendance is bound to be much lower. 3. The brand new riders that show up really don't have a clue. I certainly wouldn't risk a 20K bike on a training course and I suspect they weren't willing to either. �

1. You don't know ? Either you liked it and would do it again (good), you liked it and would do it again if they changed it (neutral), or you didn't like it and you wouldn't do it again (bad).

2. Our local motorcycle safety provider has lost money on advanced rider training every year since it started - the only reason they keep offering it is because they feel it is a good course that teaches life-saving skills and it is funded by revenue generated by basic rider training.

'Risk' and motorcycle training are like those disclaimers at the end of pharmaceutical ads. You have to see the risk in it's context, which is that although you could crash learning you probably won't. Just like you could end up in the hospital with a woody that won't stop if you take Viagra. But you'll probably just have good sex and be fine.

Crystal clarity about the risk involved would be like "OK, on this next exercise, 0.0454 per cent (50 out of 1100 ) of our  students fell off their bike in the past year. 0.003 per cent (3 out of 1100) had to be taken to the hospital. 0.0427 per cent (47 out of 1100) had minor injuries and continued on. 0.0381 per cent (42 out of 1100) had some form of damage to their motorcycle. Any of you who still want to do it, please follow me." Kinda silly.

3. That's exactly why they need to take a course in the first place. They can't even imagine what the worst is that could happen. Certainly they don't expect anything to happen to them. After all, they already know how to ride.

Too bad they didn't spend another 2K for a bike they could trash, eh ? Probably didn't have any left over after buying official HD helmets and stuff...

Remember that movie 'Strange Days' where people could experience other people's sensation via a device connected directly into the cerebral cortex ? Wouldn't it be great to be able to give every new driver (motorcyle, car, truck, ATV, snowmobile, bicycle, etc) a chance to see what it's really like to whap a guard rail or a tree because you overshot your turn ? Much understanding would be gained, but going back to my previous point regarding clarity you would have to balance this off with the reality of this actually happening, which would kind of water down the whole thing to the point of uselessness. Your best outcome would be that graduates would remember the experience from time to time whenever they were tempted to do something they shouldn't - this assumes, however they have decently developed risk perception in the first place and can tell what they are doing is going to get them in trouble before it actually does.

:media:  there is no video here

Anyway, just wanted to say good job for making the decision to see what you know and what you don't know and for having the gonads to admit your mistake and learn from it.

Here in So. Cal, the MSF course includes riding their Ninja 250s. Easy to handle, light, and cheap. Better than dropping your new ride.

;twist: �Solman244, sorry to hear about the drop, but at least you did it while trying to improve your skills in a semi controlled environment.
You mentioned a brake drag, sounds like the brake rotor on the side you went down on is slightly bent. Put the bike on the center stand and raise the front wheel off the ground just enough to spin the wheel. If you spin the wheel, you can watch from the front of the bike to see if there's a wabble in the rotor. Honda only allow's .008 of runout (bend). Rotors can be straightened or replaced with used($100),new $200.
Good luck, glad you OK and smarter ! :bow:

Quote (baileyrock @ Mon, 17 Jan. 2005 12:50:00)

Put the bike on the center stand and raise the front wheel off the ground just enough to spin the wheel.

Ah, I'd love to have a center stand, but Honda didn't see fit to equip the third gen with such a convient and time saving device.  I do have an unstable bike jack and a big 4x4 set of A-frames.  It takes 30-40 mins, but I just hang the bike up like a side of beef.

To the possibly warped rotors:  I checked 'em both and they are fine (.005 on one and .007 on the other).  I suspect the front slaves need rebuilding.  The jarring the master took during the drop must have put more pressure on the system than I can do by hand.  I pulled the calipers and pressed the cylinders back in a bit and reinstalled.  Firmed up the system and took a short ride.  No dragging, firm brakes, no leaks.  I'll be rebuilding the slaves shortly.  (I'm getting really tired of working on my brakes)

Lotta discussion about MSF all over the web. The "con" side sez they're lackeys of the manufacturers, which makes a lot of sense:  you take the course, you have a wreck, hey, you're a trained, certified rider, no product liability suit. Yay!  Apparently there's a lot of dissension regarding the national org taking over state "chapters".  I'm not privy to anything but what I've read, but allegations include the national org is shoving the locals aside, dumbing the courses down further, especially the Experienced Rider courses...getting more to take it makes for fewer prod liab lawsuits, goes the conspiracy theory. May be the case.

I took the MSF upon reentry after decades away from motorcycling.  It was a secure way to get used to riding a bike again, but I didn't feel the instruction really provided much in the way of bike handling skills or safety education.  I didn't think the never-been-on-a-bike kids were really ready for the street...but then back in the day, I bought the bike, the guy showed me how the shifter and brakes worked, how to set the choke to kick it off, and that was it, I went directly into the traffic

MSF is better than my youthful instruction, but not much, in my opinion.  Track-oriented schools such as the CLASS schools are way more exciting and fun, but I didn't really learn a lot of skills that apply to playing in the traffic.  I did learn to handle the bike better.

I frankly think something in between is defininkly called for.

I'd hate to try to do the MSF "final" ride on either my VFR or my GL1800.  What if my teddy bear got hurt?

I'll take more classes this year, perhaps the local Texas trackday classes, perhaps one of the more deluxe versions elsewhere.  I don't plan to take the Experienced Rider course, though.  My two cents, neither of which I can find.

Quote

Track-oriented schools such as the CLASS schools are way more exciting and fun, but I didn't really learn a lot of skills that apply to playing in the traffic.  I did learn to handle the bike better.

Dontcha think learning to handle the bike better IS a skill that applies to playing in traffic.  :idea:

Play in traffic. LOL.  :goof:

sol -- Sorry to hear about the drop. I hope you enjoyed the rest of the class. I got the PM -- thanks for the info. It would be a good time to take it now that your bike is already scratched. :p

In Charleston (this may be all MSF, but I'm not positive), there are three levels: Beginner, Intermediate, and Experienced. For the beginner classes intended for people with no previous riding experience, 250cc bikes are provided for training. Intermediate and experienced classes are taken on the riders own bike with the hopes that you are familiar already with how it works. They ask that you have 6mo. or 1000 miles or something along those lines. I think its a year for experienced.

I took Intermediate because training was required before I could take my bike on base. It is also a replacement for the DMV driver's test to obtain a full license. I enjoyed the class and had two great instructors that I felt were sincerely interested in helping me to be a better rider. Until this year, the experienced class was not offered in Charleston. I enjoyed my last class and I intend to take it when it is offered in March. I also intend to take track courses or other instruction to suppliment the MSF instruction.   :wheel:

Quote (VFR4Lee @ Mon, 17 Jan. 2005 19:05:00)

Quote  Track-oriented schools such as the CLASS schools are way more exciting and fun, but I didn't really learn a lot of skills that apply to playing in the traffic.  I did learn to handle the bike better. Dontcha think learning to handle the bike better IS a skill that applies to playing in traffic.  :idea: Play in traffic. LOL.  :goof:

Yes, of course, but the thrust is to handle the bike better at high speed, especially reading corners, and braking.

The idiot in the Hummer talking on her cell phone while reaching into the back seat to give the kid a swat while checking her mascara and also talking to her passenger did not show up at Laguna Seca the days I was there.  I didn't practice avoiding her. :wow:

Thanks Rhodes.  I'd love to take the ERC with you, but need to reserve some funds for much needed tires and chain.

We need to meet up to compare rashed plastics.  I'm fairly certain you still have me beat  :p

Maybe when it warms up a bit again - I can't deal with 30 degree mornings  :shake:

Okay...Not trying to be a pain in the arse here, but all the percentages in this thread are off by a factor of 100.

For example, 63,197 out of 4,903,056 is actually 1.2889% not 0.0129%.  If you're discussing statistics, 1.29% and 0.0129%
are VERY different.

Solman244 - Sorry you crashed...Glad you're not hurt.  Fix the bike and ride on!

Quote (kerplode @ Tue, 18 Jan. 2005 20:09:00)

Okay...Not trying to be a pain in the arse here, but all the percentages in this thread are off by a factor of 100.

:doh:

1.2889 per cent is still f**k all  :p

all the percentages in this thread are off by a factor of 100.

Reminds me of a Python bit. You have to multiply every figure Mr Lambert gives you by 3. Otherwise he's perfectly alright. But it does mean when he says a bed is 2 foot long, it is in fact 60 feet long.

Oh you've said mattress to him, now I have to get into the fishtank and sing. :lol:

Guess you had to see it yourself. :unsure:

Vato Viejo, Jan 17 2005, 07:41 PM
I took the MSF upon reentry after decades away from motorcycling. �It was a secure way to get used to riding a bike again, but I didn't feel the instruction really provided much in the way of bike handling skills or safety education. �I didn't think the never-been-on-a-bike kids were really ready for the street...but then back in the day, I bought the bike, the guy showed me how the shifter and brakes worked, how to set the choke to kick it off, and that was it, I went directly into the traffic

MSF is better than my youthful instruction, but not much, in my opinion. �Track-oriented schools such as the CLASS schools are way more exciting and fun, but I didn't really learn a lot of skills that apply to playing in the traffic. �I did learn to handle the bike better.
font>

I also took the MSF after about 18 years out of the saddle... Given the constraints of 12 hours class/riding time, I think the MSF is providing a basic set of skills, that riders should then take home and practice in the comfort of the nearest empty parking lot. Unfortunately, they don�t really tell you this. This same approach should be applied no matter what amount time is spent in a class. No training will take the place of experience.

Wow, this thread is getting of topic. Anyways Solman, I see you better and fixing the bike. We all learn from mistakes. The more we ride the more we learn. Ride Safe!