I've removed the old brake lines from my 01 5th Gen and replaced with HEL braided brake hoses, stripped the callipers and rebuilt with new rubber and pads. Tightened everything up and started to put brake fluid back through the system. Was slow for the front callipers but emptied 2 reservoirs and got some fluid through to each calliper. Moved onto rear pedal and front RH lower bleed nipple and as I'm getting fluid through I notice a leak up at the side of the headstock where the brake pipe joins onto a metal pipe that runs to the rear system - see photo, arrow points to leak, same on both sides of headstock. It's leaking both sides from where the vertical pipe disappears into the threaded bolt.
I'm wondering is there anything more to these pipes other than insert into new HEL braided housing and tighten? I don't know what these are called and can't find any reference to them or pictures of them in the Haynes manual. Either they're fooked or I've not connected them correctly.
Any help appreciated
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The only thing I can think of is that the angles of the flare on the tube and the fitting may not match. The manufacturer may have some insight in to that.
Might just need to give the fitting a bit more tightening, clean the area, see if it continues to leak. Generally speaking these fittings do need to be very tight!
Thanks Cogs & Grum, I was really p'ed off with myself yesterday. I thought I'd replaced and fitted everything very pedantically, and I've done the same thing before on my 6th Gen about 10 years ago and the only trouble I ran into was when one of the SpeedBleeders didn't have its bleeding hole in it and I didn't spot it when I fitted it.
I'll see what time I have after work this week otherwise it'll be the weekend before I can take a look.
Be careful not to crank it down too tight all at once - the tubing flare can split. Just sneak up on it a bit at a time until the leak stops. If you get to refusal and it's still leaking, maybe the fittings are not compatible for whatever reason. Be sure to use a tubing wrench - an open end wrench can very well round off the tubing nut when getting to where it's tight enough.
Download the Galfer instructions for the kit... they mention and supply two "olive" conic inversers (their term), which are brass ferrules to insert into two fittings where an OEM line joins theirs...... these will crush slightly as you snug up the fittings, thus taking up any difference between the two flares and seal properly... I am wondering if you are missing these. I have no pics of the item, nor it appears does Galfer. They would have been in your kit.
Recommend you download the instructions from Galfer for the D195-11 kit. One "olive" and fitting goes on the end of line "D" and the other on the end of line "F". In both locations you are mating to an existing steel line. I do not see the block fitting in your photo, so perhaps you are doing it differently or not using the 11 line kit. Tighten as you might, it may not seal?
https://galferusa.com/technical/instructions/honda-instructions
Thanks for that m8.
My set is HEL, not Galfer and the design of the joint between the new braided hose and the existing steel line by the headstock is different between the 2 makes. HEL looks more like OEM with a 90° joint, Galfer is in-line. Other than that, there is nothing to add to make a better joint and there was nothing removed when I took it apart originally either.
I'll take it apart again and see I can see what I'm doing wrong. :beer:
Ah OK, didn't realize you had HEL.... sometimes just backing off and re-snug will fix flare leaks, but I'd take it apart and see whazzup with the flare end and if OK, try again...
I've done just that and it still leaks.
Are the solid brake lines that go from the headtsock to the back replaceable? I couldn't find them on the parts fiche to get a part #.
Seriously hacked off now as this is holding up all progress on my bike.
Any thoughts, anyone?
They are on the fiche actually, they have their own page; https://www.ronayers.com/oemparts/a/hon/506c2ae4f870023420a30efd/proportioning-valve
The fact that they show a price suggests they are still available, surprisingly. Maybe try your local dealer, but don't be surprised if it's a lengthy back order.
Hey Skids. Sorry that's giving you so much grief. Other than Grum's idea of cinching it down tighter, nothing other than it not being made to the proper spec or a manufacturing defect comes to mind. Were you able to reach anyone at HEL to see if they have any ideas?
How about get in touch with Galfer and get a couple of their little "olives". They are brass and will take up any mismatch between two flares.
A replacement brake line, is the flare going to be any different than what you have? Is it obviously buggered up or still look good? I think you are steel on steel, so maybe all you gotta do is crank them tighter?
raYzerman, 4/30/2022 at 4:11 AM
How about get in touch with Galfer and get a couple of their little "olives". They are brass and will take up any mismatch between two flares.
A replacement brake line, is the flare going to be any different than what you have? Is it obviously buggered up or still look good? I think you are steel on steel, so maybe all you gotta do is crank them tighter?
Done that, thanks. Even though it's not a Galfer kit, it seems they think some sort of gasket/olive is necessary so I'll see what they say.
Meantime, it appears a replacement pipe is not an option over here as everywhere I've looked, it's not available. But looking at that link Dangeruss posted, they are available in the US and at about a third of the price they would have charged over here. :blink:
Mine should still be there, if of use I can send the whole front brake lines. I need to check but the whole lot should be in the box-o-parts.
If you need let me know and its in the post, least I could do for your help.
Thanks m8.
Let's hang on and see if Galfer can help. :beer:
Here's the Galfer solution. Not heard back from HEL yet.
HEL came up trumps in the end, manufactured a brand new set of pipes yesterday, shipped them overnight and they arrived today.
They think that the threads weren't formed deep enough so there was no way to get the 2 ends of the pipes to meet and seal.
It'll be at least this weekend, possibly later before I'll find out though. Busy boy!
Let us know what you see, and if they were right!
I've got fingers crossed for you that this sorts it.
Yeah, Good luck Skids it's been somewhat of a battle but surely you'll be right now with the new lines and connections.
Well......fitted the first pipe, that was fine, 2nd pipe was too short, they sent one of the pipes that attach to the SMC. So a quick call and they are manufacturing the correct pipe (I hope) and shipping overnight. Sent them a copy of the parts fiche with a huge arrow pointing to the correct pipe 😆.
Whilst their CS is good (when they put the correct pipe in the package), I'm rapidly losing confidence in their product so I have ordered a set of Galfers, the last one in the shop, as a back-up as I have a sneaky suspicion that these new pipes wont work either. I can always sell the Galfers if they do work but it's worth the expense to guarantee I have some brake lines that work (I fitted Galfer to my old 6th Gen and they were great).
8 hours ago, Skids
Well......fitted the first pipe, that was fine, 2nd pipe was too short, they sent one of the pipes that attach to the SMC. So a quick call and they are manufacturing the correct pipe (I hope) and shipping overnight. Sent them a copy of the parts fiche with a huge arrow pointing to the correct pipe 😆.
Whilst their CS is good (when they put the correct pipe in the package), I'm rapidly losing confidence in their product so I have ordered a set of Galfers, the last one in the shop, as a back-up as I have a sneaky suspicion that these new pipes wont work either. I can always sell the Galfers if they do work but it's worth the expense to guarantee I have some brake lines that work (I fitted Galfer to my old 6th Gen and they were great).
What an ordeal. At least they're responsive and trying to make it right for you. That I think, counts for a lot. Best of luck with it.
Makes me wonder if it is just one, or a batch...
5 hours ago, bmart
Makes me wonder if it is just one, or a batch...
:blink:
Hope not, the replacement was here when I got home from work just now so I'll get around to fitting it sometime and let you know.
Do they look/measure as different?
11 hours ago, bmart
Do they look/measure as different?
I neglected to open the original replacement package so I didn't spot the shorter pipe.
Lesson learned. Yesterday's pipe is the correct length.
Finally got around to installing the new LHS pipe. Re-filled the system and bled the system fully, in line with the Haynes SM and NO LEAKS! Result. One strange aspect was I always thought that you had to squeeze the SMC during the bleeding of the front calliper/rear brake pedal but both the Haynes & Honda SM say just prop it up at 15 deg to horizontal. Anyway, I did all that & re-installed rear brake calliper onto mounts.
Rear brake pedal feels nice & solid but there is a lot of play in the front.
QUESTION: Is it just the front 2 bleed valves on the front callipers that need bleeding or is there some way that some air in the rear system, despite the rear brake pedal feeling very good, mean that the front brake lever can be soft and therefore I need to re-bleed the whole rear system again as well? (I appreciate that "front" & "rear" don't adequately describe it as they are linked but hopefully YKWIM).
5th Gen, just in case.
Skids, 5/30/2022 at 7:08 AM
QUESTION: Is it just the front 2 bleed valves on the front callipers that need bleeding or is there some way that some air in the rear system, despite the rear brake pedal feeling very good, mean that the front brake lever can be soft and therefore I need to re-bleed the whole rear system again as well? (I appreciate that "front" & "rear" don't adequately describe it as they are linked but hopefully YKWIM).
5th Gen, just in case.
I don't think it's a case of air in the rear brake system affecting the front brake system--it's more that with the Linked Braking System, you've got front brake system plumbing running all the way to the rear brake via the PCV, so you need to bleed the two front brakes, the PCV and the rear brake (forgot which one of the two specifically at the rear brake caliper) in order to bleed the air from the front brake system.
The front brake lever and associated hydraulics and pistons is completely independent of the rear brake circuit, so softness in the front brake lever is purely a matter of air in that circuit. If conventional bleeding doesn't entirely help, try tying the lever back to the bars overnight keeping the system under pressure. I'm not clear on the physics of this but it sure does firm up the brake feel.
The only way that front lever action transmits to the rear wheel is by the movement of the front left calliper which squeezes the secondary master cylinder. But the SMC is force fed fluid from the rear master only and has no hydraulic connection to the front brake master.
Thanks Terry, already did that and it worked.
However, it also highlighted another leak, this time from the link pipe from right to left front calipers so same type of joint as the one I had the original issue with.
I decided I can't continue with the HEL pipes as I'll always be wondering if they'll spring another leak whilst riding so I contacted them again and they agreed a full refund. Kudos to HEL CS , very good indeed.
Managed to source a set of Galfer braided hoses from the US and am waiting for some time to remove the HEL ones and replace with the Galfers. I fitted a set of them to my 6th Gen a few years ago and it seemed much more straightforward.
Selling leaking brake lines seems like a high risk proposition, at least it would be here in The Litigious States of America. Run over just one kid in a stroller and...
I ordered HEL lines several years ago after i found out my self-made brake lines were illegal here in Austria - custom for my delink front and rear - they were, are great. There was an issue as I ordered over the website, the angle of the banjo - x, y or z plane. Their website isn't very clear and of course the wrong one came. I rang them and spoke to the owner who admitted such mistakes happen very often as the website isn't really very accurate. I made some suggestions which he agreed may make it easier and save him money but i don't know if they've updated the site. To his due and even after my offer to pay the shipping, he sent the new one free of charge including shipping to Europe.
Their customer service is top!
You're a better customer than I am...
Not sure if you're talking to me but they fixed it straight away without moaning or argument. I have no bad feeling towards them because of that and would order from them again.
I don't think that's bad, shit happens sometimes, and I've experienced a lot worse. You should deal with companies here for an eye opener! That's why I have/need lawyer insurance!
11 hours ago, bmart
Selling leaking brake lines seems like a high risk proposition, at least it would be here in The Litigious States of America. Run over just one kid in a stroller and...
Was that addressed to me? I'm not settling them, I'm returning them to the manufacturer for a full refund.
Hardly aimed at you, but at the manufacturer. What if a newbie installed them and went for a ride...terrifying.
1 hour ago, bmart
Hardly aimed at you, but at the manufacturer. What if a newbie installed them and went for a ride...terrifying.
My bad @bmart, mis-understood what you meant. :beer:
Galfer hoses fitted but no time to fill and bleed, that will have to wait a few weeks I think as we're busy next weekend with 2 days of rugby then off on holidays for the following 2 weekends. Much easier to fit than the HEL lines, especially those fixed lines by the headstock plus Galfer cleverly replace the hard lines that cross the fender with braided hoses so there should be no issues there either.
The end may finally be in sight! :wheel:
I messed up the fitting slightly but spotted it before I tightened the banjo bolts. System refilled, speed bleeders fitted and system bled. I've tied the front brake Lever back overnight so will wait and see what happens - this is the point last time where I spotted the leaks.
Also fitted a Skidmarx Cf-look chain guard and hugger.
Off on hols on Friday, delayed due to catching the big-C (Covid, not cancer) so not much progress for a while now until we're back.