I'm currently in the process of performing my own 16k valve inspection on my '02. I'm using my manual as well as the guide that's been linked from VFRD several times. Once completed, I'll share my own $.02 about the process.
I'm at the point where the VTEC slide pin stoppers have been installed and all cams have been returned to their rightful place. I have run into a bit of a problem, however, and I was hoping that there was someone out there with some experience that could advise me.
All of the non-VTEC valves are within tolerance (intake @ 0.20mm +- 0.03mm and exhaust @ 0.35mm +- 0.03mm) but I'm getting some curious measurements on the VTEC side. All 4 VTEC intake valves are coming in at 0.13mm. While that's within the 0.02mm intake valve spec (all VTEC valves have an 0.08mm tolerance), I find it odd that they are all so close to the limit. More troubling is the fact that all 4 of my VTEC exhaust valves are coming in at 0.23mm, a whopping 0.12mm from the 0.35mm ideal and a full 50% out of the 0.08mm tolerance. ohmy.gif
I've pulled the VTEC valve lifters again to examine the slide pin holder and the installation of the pin stopper. Everything seems proper. One thing I do notice is that with the VTEC outer springs removed (as per the proceedure), it is possible to wedge the feeler gauge in tight enough to actually open the valves. I'm being careful not to do that and to measure the true gap.
My technique is consistant between the VTEC and non-VTEC valves. I start with a small feeler gauge and work my way up until I cearly cannot insert the feeler without undue force. I repeat my measurements several times to be sure that they are accurate. Access to the valves isn't a problem and I really feel that I'm taking accurate readings. It's just so odd that all 8 VTEC valves would measure the exact same clearance and that the exhaust is so far out of wack. huh.gif
I'm not panicing yet. I still have 2 feet of snow in my back yard and riding season won't really begin until mid-April. A buddy of mine is going to come by next Friday (I'm on the road most of next week) and I'm going to have him do a blind test on all of my measurements. cool.gif
sailcycle, Mar 26 2005, 10:52 PMAll 4 VTEC intake valves are coming in at 0.13mm. While that's within the 0.02mm intake valve spec (all VTEC valves have an 0.08mm tolerance), I find it odd that they are all so close to the limit.
I mis-spoke here. I meant to say that the VTEC intake vales are within the 0.20mm +-0.08mm specification. But at 0.13mm, they're awfully close to the limit and they're all the same! wink.gif
Me thinks I've been sniffig to much WD-40 today, but it sure was fun! 491.gif
First thing I can say is double and triple check your measurements. I bet I measured mine at least 6 times before I was sure that everything was good. It does seem strange that all the VTEC valves are giving you consistently tight measurements on the intake and exhaust and the non-VTEC valves are all ok. Even though you said you did, I gotta ask. Are you removing the outer valve springs on the VTEC valves and installing the slide pin stoppers in the VTEC valve buckets? Since you have some time due to weather (bummer) maybe you could switch some of them around and see if the measurements change accordingly. This would only work in the VTEC valve buckets are different measured thicknesses. Also you could figure out the required bucket for 1 VTEC intake valve and 1 VTEC exhaust valve, buy and install them. If the new buckets get the measurements where they are supposed to be then buy the rest of the required buckets. I had 1 intake VTEC valve that was 0.127 and the new bucket got it to 0.197 This may be a expensive valve adjustment for you with the VTEC valve buckets costing 20 to 25 dollars each! One time saving tip I did figure out was that you don't have to re-install the chains every time you re-install the cams. In fact I ended up removing both chains and tying them back with zip-ties so I could remove all 4 cams at the same time without having to turn the engine over a bunch of times. Just be very careful removing the cam carriers as some of the cam lobes may be pointing down and opening the valves (springs under pressure) Turn each bolt 1/4 turn at a time until all the spring pressure is off the cam carrier.
Yes, all of the VTEC outer springs were removed and placed in labled bins. There is no picture of the installation of the slide pin stopper into the slide pin holder, so I'll describe what I did.
I removed the slide pin holder from the valve lifter. I then placed the slide pin stopper into the "hole" of the slide pin holder and depressed the spring so that the slide pin stopper was flush with the surface of the stopper. Holding the pin with my thumb, I then slid the slide pin holder back into the valve lifer, making sure that it bottomed against the shim surface. (I triple-checked to make sure that I didn't install the slide pin stopper upside down.) I coated the lifter with a film of moly/oil and reinserted it into the valve lifter hole. With my thumb, I pressed down on the valve lifter several times to assure myself that the VTEC valve was now being engaged. comp13.gif
I measured all of the non-VTEC shims and the VTEC lifters with a micrometer and recorded them. One of the VTEC lifters is the specified thickness for one of the other valves, so I was thinking about doing as you suggested and swapping a couple of them around. If I end up with the same measurement, I'll know I'm doing something screwy.
Did you ever hear the old analysis of the cost of a typical cord of self-harvested firewood? Throw in the cost of the truck, chainsaw and emergency room visit and it shows how much cheaper it is to buy the stuff. I don't think I'm there with the valve adjust, but I'm working on it. But I am enjoying the process and it got me out of the house for a day or two or three. I also suspect that the dealership would have done what I did first, which was to measure the non-VTEC valves before disassembling the valve train. They would have seen that those valves were OK and knowing that the VTEC valve tolerance was almost 3 times the non-VTEC side, waved their magic wand and stopped right there and charged me $xxx. pissed.gif
The damned VTEC buckets are $28 from Ron Ayers. Ouch! With the swap of one exhaust bucket, I'd end up having to buy 3 more exhaust buckets. I'd leave the intakes alone this time, as they are within spec, and save up to replace them next time.
Here's the latest in my saga. With a refreshed mind and a belly full of smoked pork products, I decided to measure all of my valves again. This was an easy task, given that the slide pin stoppers were still installed in the VTEC valves and that the valve train was still wide open.
I left yesterday's measurement sheet behind, not wanting to influence my new measurements. I carefully measured all 16 valves, starting with the thinnest feeler gauge and working my way up until it was just too tight to easily insert the next larger size. I duly noted the gap on all 16 valves for comparison to yesterday's measurements.
Despite all the hoopla about the tight confines for working on a V4, I must admit that I find the access to be pretty good. The rear cylinder is a piece of cake. The front cylinders, of course, are more of a challenge. I elected to remove the radiators, the front cowl and the front fender. Removing all these things will add about an hour to my process, overall, but it's well worth it. fing02.gif
As I expected, my measurements were an exact match. Given that 2 of the VTEC valve lifters were 0.07mm different (2.79mm versus 2.86mm), I decided to take Tejas' advice and swap them to see the impact on the valve clearances. Sure enough, one valve loosened by about 0.07mm while the other one tightened by the same amount.
The good news is that that pretty much proves that my technique is OK. The bad news is that I'm about to have to purchase 4-$30 valve lifters for my VTEC exhaust! sad.gif
I am awfully suspicious about the original clearances when my bike was assembled. Although I do ride quickly and enjoy traveling up into the VTEC range frequently, I am not abusive. Why would each and every VTEC valve clearance, intake and exhaust, have the same relative clearance and be so tight? This is especially curious in light of the fact that all of my non-VTEC valves were just fine. Enquiring minds want to know. I'll probably jot a line off to American Honda, just for fun. I'm well out of warranty, so I don't expect any favors. pissed.gif
sailcycle, Mar 27 2005, 09:33 PMThe good news is that that pretty much proves that my technique is OK. The bad news is that I'm about to have to purchase 4-$30 valve lifters for my VTEC exhaust! sad.gif
I am awfully suspicious about the original clearances when my bike was assembled. Although I do ride quickly and enjoy traveling up into the VTEC range frequently, I am not abusive. Why would each and every VTEC valve clearance, intake and exhaust, have the same relative clearance and be so tight? This is especially curious in light of the fact that all of my non-VTEC valves were just fine. Enquiring minds want to know. I'll probably jot a line off to American Honda, just for fun. I'm well out of warranty, so I don't expect any favors. pissed.gif
Even buying a bike out of Japan that is built on a Friday or a Monday sucks. pissed.gif
I performed the VTEC valve inspection about 3-weeks ago. One thing I learned is you need to be sensitive to the amount of pressure applied to the feeler gauge while trying to insert it in the gap for the VTEC valves. Also, the go/no-go technique can throw you with the VTEC valves. You need to stop putting the blades in when you get to a point where the resistance is pretty good and call it good. If there was really that much clearance, I would think you would be able to hear a pretty good clicking sound when the bike is running. Here is what I experienced checking the valves.
With the outer spring removed, I thought I had the same problem as you. I started at -0.003 inch from the specification and worked my way up. When I got to the middle of the spec range, the resistance was pretty good on the feeler, but I kept going. I was getting worried when I hit the 0.023 inch gauge. Then I noticed something. The thicker blades would actually push the VTEC valve down (i.e. open). When the blade was removed, the valve would close. This would happen with all of the VTEC valves. I then checked again from the beginning. Again, the resistance was pretty good at the spec value. I stopped at this point, and recorded the clearance. All valves were in spec.
After removing the cams, I decided to press down on the lifters with the slide-pin stoppers in place and the outer spring removed. I could push the valves open. Applying the same force to the non-VTEC valves, I could not push these valves open. So, I conclude that the outer spring being removed effectively cuts the spring rate in half for the VTEC valves.
I hope this helps. If I am off base, someone please chime in and correct me.
Gnatman, Mar 29 2005, 10:05 PMI performed the VTEC valve inspection about 3-weeks ago. One thing I learned is you need to be sensitive to the amount of pressure applied to the feeler gauge while trying to insert it in the gap for the VTEC valves. Also, the go/no-go technique can throw you with the VTEC valves. You need to stop putting the blades in when you get to a point where the resistance is pretty good and call it good.
I hope this helps. If I am off base, someone please chime in and correct me.
Thanks!
Hi Gnatman,
No, you're not off-base. I had the same experience and went through exactly what you describe. It's pretty easy to overwhelm the VTEC valve springs when the outer springs are removed and to open them with the feeler gauge. I also did the thumb-opening thing when the cams were removed just to make sure that what I was feeling (pun intended) was correct. If you have the feeler gauge wedged in there, you will hear the valve close when you remove it.
My technique was to measure one cylinder at a time and one pair of valves at a time. I wanted the feel to be the same as far as how tight things were. I would first measure the non-VTEC valve several times and then immediately move over to the VTEC side. My technique was consistant and clearly showed that all VTEC valves were tight.
I've got a buddy coming by on Friday to blind-test my measurements. If he gets the same as me, it'll be off to Ron Ayers for $120 of VTEC exhaust lifters. pissed.gif
jvafyr, Mar 29 2005, 10:38 PMcareful how much moly/oil you use. it may not seem like much but it does add thicknees to the assembly.
thats my $.02
Hi jvafyr,
I agree. I also rolled the engine over multiple times to make sure that things were seated and I'm sure that that helped spread the goop. After a half dozen passes with the feeler gauge, I'm sure the moly didn't factor into the measurements all that much. And like I said before, all the non-VTEC valves were just fine. Conversely, each and every VTEC valve was tight by the exact same amount. wink.gif
For those of you that have performed their own valve inspections in the past, don't be scared off by the supposed complexity of the VTEC valve train. If you're organized and methodical, it's really a snap. The big difference is in having to remove the cams at least twice as you go through the procedure. Hell, I've had those rear cams out about 6 times now and I think I could do it with my eyes closed. I am not disappointed in my ability to do my own valve clearance checks and I'm not overwhelmed by the procedure. I've actually been enjoying the process. beer.gif
A word of caution. Before I removed the cams, I measured the non-VTEC valves and found them to be 100%. Given that the VTEC valves have almost 3 times the tolerance, it would have been easy to talk myself into stopping right there. That's probably what a dealer would do. But I went ahead and followed through. I even measured and recorded the actual thickness of all 16 shims and lifters with a micrometer. I'll bet that after I adjust them to spec, I'll won't have to touch them again. fing02.gif
A friend stopped by today and repeated all of my measurements. We totally agreed on all but 1 valve out of 16. I'm getting a third blind-test done by a friend tomorrow before I take the plunge on 4 new VTEC exhaust lifters. wink.gif
A friend stopped by today and repeated all of my measurements. We totally agreed on all but 1 valve out of 16. I'm getting a third blind-test done by a friend tomorrow before I take the plunge on 4 new VTEC exhaust lifters. wink.gif
A committee of mechanics. blink.gif You must be from D.C.. laugh.gif
Reminds me of George Will's complaint about football. It "embodies the two worst features of American society, organized violence punctuated by committee meetings."
I'm impressed at the thoroughness of your measuring proceedure. Sounds like you've gotten accurate info. Agree that it's surprising that ALL the VTEC valves are so far out of spec, and that all match. But then, stranger things have happened.
From reading about your adventures and thinking ahead to the time I'll have to do the same myself, an idea hit me: your old, out of spec lifters aren't worn out...just out of spec for your bike. And every one of us who finds out of spec lifters is going to end up with a handfull of old--but perfectly good--lifters.
We need to start a LIFTER EXCHANGE program! I don't know exactly how we might do this (I'm open to suggestions!), but at the very least we should each inform the VFR Discussion site of the specs of the extra lifters each of us has. If someone could make up a chart of some sort, we could check it to see if anyone had lifters of the spec that we needed. At that point, a swap or a purchase could be made with the other party. I'd suggest that the price of a used, but perfectly good lifter should be set at $10.
Anybody interested in the idea? Have any suggestions as to how we might procede?
Best regards,
BurmaWolf
Ring out the old Ring in the new What good can Shaving Brushes do? --Burma-Shave--
That sounds like a perfectly good idea to me. I would most likely just wind up throwing my old lifters into my parts bin, never to be used again (why not offer them to another person here who could use them). I know for a fact that in a couple of thousand miles, I'll be purchasing several new pieces to correct the measurements on my VTEC. Last valve check told me that all of mine were in spec...But, not one of my valves were exactly perfect (where I am going to be putting them at, next time around). So, I will have 8 pieces for someone if they need them come this fall.
I yielded to the committee measurement technique because I wanted to be damned good and sure that I wasn't fooling myself with my measurements. That's also why I've been so anal about the entire process. I haven't read about anyone else having their VTEC valves all so far out of whack. As a matter of fact, most posts have indicated that all was well with the VTEC world. I don't know if that is based in reality or if the dealers are doing what I suspect they are doing....drive-by valve inspections. wink.gif
I'm surprised that I haven't heard more from folks that have done their own inspections. Are they afraid of the complexity or just hoping for the best? Given that the VTECs have now been out since '02, I would have thought that many had already hit the 16k mark. unsure.gif
As luck would have it, I can re-use 2 of my exhaust lifters elsewhere. I'm not looking to get all the valves at 100% perfection at this point, I'll settle simply for being within spec. I want to see how things progress once I get to 32k. That said, I'll probably be looking for a 265 and a 293. I'll have a pair of 300s kicking around in case anyone needs them. Has anyone seen these things pop up on eBay yet? idea3.gif
Mr. Anal here (insert anal emoticon, pun intended),
The last of my two remaining friends have now confirmed that each and every last one of my VTEC valves are tight. The intakes are within spec and will be left alone for now. I can swap 2 of the exhaust valve lifters, meaning that I only have to buy $60 worth of replacements. This will bring all valves to within tolerance. I'll probably opt to do another valve inspection next spring, when I estimate that I'll have 25k on the beast. If things are stable, I will replace whatever is needed in order to bring the clearances as close to spec as possible. While the non-VTEC shims are cheap and closely spaced in terms of size, the VTEC lifters are almost $30 each and take a big 0.07mm jump between sizes.
The lifters will be here in a week. I figure that it will take me the better part of a day to adjust the valves and to put everything back together. In the mean time, I'll lube the control cables and flush the hydraulics. Then it will be off to the dealership to repair the cracked subframe.
I suspect the .07mm gap between the vtec bucket sizes is explained by (or perhaps explains) the much broader tolerance in the clearance spec. It may well also explain why yours are universally tight. Faced with the prospect of setting all the valves up on the loose side of the range, the installer set them all up on the tight side. A bit of valve recession and you wind up where you are.
Wow, incredible precision. Kudos to you. I finally checked my valves this winter (after 50,000km which is about 30,000mi (i know, i'm bad)) and 6 of 8 non-VTEC valves were tight a bit (and were replaced). All VTEC valves were within spec (but a few were at the very limit of tight - I'm sure I'll have to replace them this fall).
I agree with the whole fear of dealers doing this job. It's far more involved than it should be (not that I'd give up the sound of all 4 valves coming on line at 7,000.), and I have no doubt that SOME (not all) would stop at measuring the non-VTEC valves, as that would take way less time.
Anyhow, just thought I'd share my experience. And I'd be totally into the VTEC lifter exchange program. I've got 2, 279's and 6, 286's if anybody is interested.
vfrjim2002, Apr 1 2005, 09:25 PMI suspect the .07mm gap between the vtec bucket sizes is explained by (or perhaps explains) the much broader tolerance in the clearance spec. It may well also explain why yours are universally tight. Faced with the prospect of setting all the valves up on the loose side of the range, the installer set them all up on the tight side. A bit of valve recession and you wind up where you are.
Hi Jim,
I agree. The tolerances are broad, so there is a huge gap in the lifter size. But I also believe that an apprentice valve monkey did my assembly. The "tightness" is far beyond what I would have expected, especially for having such a broad tolerance and after only 17k. My rationale is as follows; comp13.gif
The clearance for the VTEC intakes is 0.20mm with a 0.08mm tolerance. Mine are all 0.13mm. Given that they are a full size off from ideal and that full size represents 0.07mm, this is huge, IMHO. ohmy.gif
The clearance for the VTEC exhausts is 0.35mm, again with a 0.08mm tolerance. Mine are all 0.23mm, a full 2 sizes from ideal and 50% out of the tolerance range. This is beyond huge. What concerns me even more, it that one valve will require a 265, the thinnest shim that Honda offers. There will be no where to go from there other than a valve job. pissed.gif
eastbowl2, Apr 1 2005, 10:25 PMWow, incredible precision. Kudos to you. I finally checked my valves this winter (after 50,000km which is about 30,000mi (i know, i'm bad)) and 6 of 8 non-VTEC valves were tight a bit (and were replaced). All VTEC valves were within spec (but a few were at the very limit of tight - I'm sure I'll have to replace them this fall).
I agree with the whole fear of dealers doing this job. It's far more involved than it should be (not that I'd give up the sound of all 4 valves coming on line at 7,000.), and I have no doubt that SOME (not all) would stop at measuring the non-VTEC valves, as that would take way less time.
Anyhow, just thought I'd share my experience. And I'd be totally into the VTEC lifter exchange program. I've got 2, 279's and 6, 286's if anybody is interested.
cheers.
Thanks, Eastbowl. I will also have a few "spares" kicking around after next week. I think the lifter exchange program is a great idea. Does anyone know how an inventory can be kept here in VFRD? I kind of envision a simple spreadsheet with the lifter code (thickness) and the current owner's contact information. Through Ron Ayers, these things are about $28 each. I ended up buying 2 at $35 bucks from my local Honda dealer because he promised to have them within 4 working days with no shipping charge. These things are as good as new and I think we should save our money for what really matters....like VFRD donations! fing02.gif
Group: Members Posts: 437 Joined: March-26 04 From: NC Member No.: 1,813
Front VTEC: Intake-.005 and .005 (normal is .008 +/- .003) Exhaust-.010 and .010 (normal is .013 +/- .003) Front Normal: Intake-.007 and .007 (normal is .008 +/- .001) Exhaust-.012 and .012 (normal is .013 +/- .001)
For the rear cylinder, I attained the exact identicle results as I did for the front (every single valve was at the lower end of the normal range). Since I have no prior experience w/t this procedure on any bike, I gather that the consistancy in spec's is a very good finding
Several thousand miles ago...thats what they were...are the values close? I kn0w that they are not near perfect...which just buggs meee! Will have the values closest to perfection as possible when the next check presents itself to me.
Lifesaver, Apr 2 2005, 12:55 AM Front VTEC: Intake-.005 and .005 (normal is .008 +/- .003) Exhaust-.010 and .010 (normal is .013 +/- .003) Front Normal: Intake-.007 and .007 (normal is .008 +/- .001) Exhaust-.012 and .012 (normal is .013 +/- .001)
For the rear cylinder, I attained the exact identicle results as I did for the front (every single valve was at the lower end of the normal range). Since I have no prior experience w/t this procedure on any bike, I gather that the consistancy in spec's is a very good finding
Several thousand miles ago...thats what they were...are the values close? I kn0w that they are not near perfect...which just buggs meee! Will have the values closest to perfection as possible when the next check presents itself to me.
Later, Ian
Hi Ian,
The measurements you got (in inches) and what I reported (in millimeters) are very close. That's reassuring, so I thank you for sharing them. Like you, I saw a high degree of consistency between all of my valves. All but 1 were on the tight side. The non-VTEC valves were well within spec, however, and didn't need to be adjusted. At 0.005in, our VTEC intakes are right at the limit. I'm going to wait until next time to deal with those. The exhausts are a different matter. You measured 0.010in and I measured 0.009in, so we're slightly different, but both wildly out of spec.
Am I right in that valves tend to tighten and not loosen? The tightening would occur as valves and seats wear. Loosening would only occur if there was a carbon build-up.
Who has an idea how to implement that great suggestion for establishing a lifter pool? Methinks we're going to need it! sad.gif
This is a very educating thread, one of the best tech threads I've read in quite awhile. By comparing what you, Sailcycle, are talking about to the parts microfiche I found online, I can see exactly what you are talking about. When I get my next VFR, I'll know what to look for when it's time to inspect my valves.
sailcycle, Apr 2 2005, 05:37 PMAm I right in that valves tend to tighten and not loosen? The tightening would occur as valves and seats wear. Loosening would only occur if there was a carbon build-up.
The measurements you got (in inches) and what I reported (in millimeters) are very close.� That's reassuring, so I thank you for sharing them.� Like you, I saw a high degree of consistency between all of my valves.� All but 1 were on the tight side.� The non-VTEC valves were well within spec, however, and didn't need to be adjusted.� At 0.005in, our VTEC intakes are right at the limit.� I'm going to wait until next time to deal with those.� The exhausts are a different matter.� You measured 0.010in and I measured 0.009in, so we're slightly different, but both wildly out of spec.
Am I right in that valves tend to tighten and not loosen?� The tightening would occur as valves and seats wear.� Loosening would only occur if there was a carbon build-up.
Who has an idea how to implement that great suggestion for establishing a lifter pool?� Methinks we're going to need it! sad.gif
Well, it's over and all is well. I ended up swapping 2 VTEC exhaust lifters, replacing 2 other VTEC exhaust lifters and replacing 1 normal intake shim. All of my valves are now within spec, although the VTEC intakes are all on the tight side. I'll check on them next spring and adjust them at that time.
This was a major undertaking and not for the fumble-fingered. But if you're mechanically competent, patient, organized and methodical, it is not a bad exercise. The next time will be a breeze. I actually enjoyed my wrench time, with yesterday's temps hitting the 60s. I feel much more confident in my bike and my ability to work on it. I had it out for a test ride and it was silky smooth! wheel.gif
Having the bike fully stripped also allowed me to go over everything with a fine tooth comb. I lubed the cables, flushed the hydraulics and coolant, made note of the cracked seat rail and the fact that my brake pads need replacement.
When I have a bit of down time, I'll post my own observations about the valve inspection process. The guide was excellent, but I have a few caveats of my own that may be of help. comp13.gif
As some of you may have read in my posting concerening "Gear Ratio's" I am investigating the use of a VFR for a specific racing purpose. That is why I read this thread with great interest. I am enclosing a quote from R.E.D.
"Richards Engine Development suggests I might also consider altering the VTEC system such that the "switch over" to 4 valve operation is delayed... again in the interest of bolstering low end torque off the corners. "
Has anyone heard of any method to accomplish altering the point at which the VTec system kicks in? Any info in this regard would be greatly appreciated. Wade Finley;)
UMSRASupporter, Apr 11 2005, 11:10 AMAs some of you may have read in my posting concerening "Gear Ratio's" I am investigating the use of a VFR for a specific racing purpose. That is why I read this thread with great interest. I am enclosing a quote from R.E.D.
Has anyone heard of any method to accomplish altering the point at which the VTec system kicks in? Any info in this regard would be greatly appreciated. Wade Finley;)
There was a big thread about this a while back...I'll see if I can dig it up.
biggrin.gif Tyrroneous: Actually this thank you should go to everyone that has given me help on this matter. I have used forums for all type of racing, etc. and this forum is the best by far when it come to helping people. Thanks again. Wade
End of thread · 30 posts recoveredWayback Machine snapshot 6 May 2005