Here's link to the "Pace"
http://canyonchasers...ce/the_pace.php
Thanks for the link The BS'r ! :+1:
http://canyonchasers...ce/the_pace.php
Thanks for the link The BS'r ! :+1:
Nick Ienatsch 's The Pace
48 posts Started 29 Mar 2006 Last recovered post 25 Jun 2010 Wayback Machine snapshot 18 Sep 2021
Very good article, thanks.
Great stuff, just forwarded it to my Dad. Thanks.
The "street sport riding Bible"......the "Holy Grail of sport riding on the street"
:P :thumbsup: B)
:P :thumbsup: B)
Thank you, Bailey. Had never read that before, but great stuff. Thanks.
chris2992, on Mar 29 2006, 08:54 PM, said:
Thank you, Bailey. Had never read that before, but great stuff. Thanks.<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The BS's , was the one who posted the link in another form, I just copied it !
I switched to the PACE several years ago ! :thumbsup:
Just curious Bailey. Do you always ride the pace? I like to, but find I usually ride in squid mode with my homies.
ULEWZ, on Mar 29 2006, 08:59 PM, said:
Just curious Bailey. Do you always ride the pace? I like to, but find I usually ride in squid mode with my homies.<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh sure, call me on that ! <_<
Actually, we stay below 85 mph 95% of the time, but there's this one sweet section on our loop were we just let it fly. :P
baileyrock, on Mar 29 2006, 10:59 PM, said:
Oh sure, call me on that ! <_<Actually, we stay below 85 mph 95% of the time, but there's this one sweet section on our loop were we just let it fly. :P
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You mean you actually break the federally mandated speed limit and not get caught? :goofy:
We always ride the pace, too, but there is always at least one time in a ride where we just pin that bitch to the stops and let 'er rip.
I may get flames, but there is this stretch of Interstate north of North Little Rock that is B-O-R-I-N-G, and it is like 10 miles, 3 lanes, not a single car... no exits or entrance ramps. It's like Mad Max land or something. I think they built a better road, or maybe no one goes north of North Little Rock anymore, but its deserted. So last time we were on it, my buddy and I did a little top gear roll on test. My VTECH was showing 164mph in a tight tuck, and if I popped up a little bit, it would start ticking down to about 159 or so... Irresponsible? Probably. It was a test, OK!? For science!
Sidenote: That figure seems a lot higher that what you guys say your bikes will do, but I ain't lying. What gives? Remember, I am a scientist.
I may get flames, but there is this stretch of Interstate north of North Little Rock that is B-O-R-I-N-G, and it is like 10 miles, 3 lanes, not a single car... no exits or entrance ramps. It's like Mad Max land or something. I think they built a better road, or maybe no one goes north of North Little Rock anymore, but its deserted. So last time we were on it, my buddy and I did a little top gear roll on test. My VTECH was showing 164mph in a tight tuck, and if I popped up a little bit, it would start ticking down to about 159 or so... Irresponsible? Probably. It was a test, OK!? For science!
Sidenote: That figure seems a lot higher that what you guys say your bikes will do, but I ain't lying. What gives? Remember, I am a scientist.
After reading that, I actually sent that to my home e-mail account. I am going to print off a few copies and its going out to my riding buddies when we see each other next.
I usually lead, and I am all for setting a Pace of this sort. I will cruise in two lane highway at around 60 (in a 55) but I don't like much faster than that. The author is right, it just attracts too much attention. I find it much more exhilirating to barely slow down coming into a corner, and getting on the throttle on the way out, much more than going as fast as I can.
Now, don't get me wrong, we all have :goofy: moments, but I prefer to ride knowing that I will make it home.
Later,
Jeff
I usually lead, and I am all for setting a Pace of this sort. I will cruise in two lane highway at around 60 (in a 55) but I don't like much faster than that. The author is right, it just attracts too much attention. I find it much more exhilirating to barely slow down coming into a corner, and getting on the throttle on the way out, much more than going as fast as I can.
Now, don't get me wrong, we all have :goofy: moments, but I prefer to ride knowing that I will make it home.
Later,
Jeff
Wow, I didn't realize that so many people were unaware of the Pace.
Bailey, maybe we should put a sticky/link or something for it on VFRD :goofy:
When I first read the Pace, I thought that it seemed like the smartest approach to riding sport bikes on the street.
The main group that I rode with was kind of attempting to do something along the Pace lines without actully knowing it, so when I discoverd the Pace it was like the Holy Grail :P There it was...already written out etc.
I had ridden the balls out as fast as you can into the corner style and actually was finding, as well as the rest of our group, that at the end of the day, riding the Pace style was more fun and lees stressful that what we had been doing.
Do we ever get on it and deviate from the Pace...sure(the last run up Mulholland from PCH I made didn't adhere to the Pace) but the majority of the time we use the Pace as a general guideline for our group rides.
Lewis, when we did the VFRD group ride back a few months ago the Pace that I led us at especially on the way up with the large group was definitely on the slow side of our normal Pace. On the way home we picked it up more and that would have been like a "medium" Pace version. Our quick Pace is faster than that. We tend to fluctuate depending on how big the group is and or how experienced everyone is etc. as well as if any of the group has ridden together(especially with a Pace style ride) and adjust accordingly B)
As I mentioned in the other thread that Bailey was refering to, we've got some addtional little tricks that we've added to our rides in terms of getting the most out of sport riding(corners) and using a bit of strategy to allow us to run the majority of corners at speed while avoiding traffic.
Bailey, maybe we should put a sticky/link or something for it on VFRD :goofy:
When I first read the Pace, I thought that it seemed like the smartest approach to riding sport bikes on the street.
The main group that I rode with was kind of attempting to do something along the Pace lines without actully knowing it, so when I discoverd the Pace it was like the Holy Grail :P There it was...already written out etc.
I had ridden the balls out as fast as you can into the corner style and actually was finding, as well as the rest of our group, that at the end of the day, riding the Pace style was more fun and lees stressful that what we had been doing.
Do we ever get on it and deviate from the Pace...sure(the last run up Mulholland from PCH I made didn't adhere to the Pace) but the majority of the time we use the Pace as a general guideline for our group rides.
Lewis, when we did the VFRD group ride back a few months ago the Pace that I led us at especially on the way up with the large group was definitely on the slow side of our normal Pace. On the way home we picked it up more and that would have been like a "medium" Pace version. Our quick Pace is faster than that. We tend to fluctuate depending on how big the group is and or how experienced everyone is etc. as well as if any of the group has ridden together(especially with a Pace style ride) and adjust accordingly B)
As I mentioned in the other thread that Bailey was refering to, we've got some addtional little tricks that we've added to our rides in terms of getting the most out of sport riding(corners) and using a bit of strategy to allow us to run the majority of corners at speed while avoiding traffic.
Das Bone, on Mar 30 2006, 11:36 AM, said:
Wow, I didn't realize that so many people were unaware of the Pace.Bailey, maybe we should put a sticky/link or something for it on VFRD :goofy:
When I first read the Pace, I thought that it seemed like the smartest approach to riding sport bikes on the street.
The main group that I rode with was kind of attempting to do something along the Pace lines without actully knowing it, so when I discoverd the Pace it was like the Holy Grail :P There it was...already written out etc.
I had ridden the balls out as fast as you can into the corner style and actually was finding, as well as the rest of our group, that at the end of the day, riding the Pace style was more fun and lees stressful that what we had been doing.
Do we ever get on it and deviate from the Pace...sure(the last run up Mulholland from PCH I made didn't adhere to the Pace) but the majority of the time we use the Pace as a general guideline for our group rides.
Lewis, when we did the VFRD group ride back a few months ago the Pace that I led us at especially on the way up with the large group was definitely on the slow side of our normal Pace. On the way home we picked it up more and that would have been like a "medium" Pace version. Our quick Pace is faster than that. We tend to fluctuate depending on how big the group is and or how experienced everyone is etc. as well as if any of the group has ridden together(especially with a Pace style ride) and adjust accordingly B)
As I mentioned in the other thread that Bailey was refering to, we've got some addtional little tricks that we've added to our rides in terms of getting the most out of sport riding(corners) and using a bit of strategy to allow us to run the majority of corners at speed while avoiding traffic.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Good idea, I'll see if we can link it some how !
Ienatsch compiled a number of articles from his writing and editorial stints at Motorcyclist, Sport Rider, Sportbike, and Cycle World magazines in a 2003 book titled Sport Riding Techniques - How to Develop Real World Skills for Speed, Safety and Confidence On The Street and Track. The Pace is the last chapter. The book is a good read and I highly recommend it.
dduelin, on Mar 30 2006, 05:11 PM, said:
Ienatsch compiled a number of articles from his writing and editorial stints at Motorcyclist, Sport Rider, Sportbike, and Cycle World magazines in a 2003 book titled Sport Riding Techniques - How to Develop Real World Skills for Speed, Safety and Confidence On The Street and Track. The Pace is the last chapter. The book is a good read and I highly recommend it.<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Agreed, I've read it and it's great ! :thumbsup:
dduelin, on Mar 30 2006, 03:11 PM, said:
Ienatsch compiled a number of articles from his writing and editorial stints at Motorcyclist, Sport Rider, Sportbike, and Cycle World magazines in a 2003 book titled Sport Riding Techniques - How to Develop Real World Skills for Speed, Safety and Confidence On The Street and Track. The Pace is the last chapter. The book is a good read and I highly recommend it.<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
:beer: it's my favorite technique etc. book.
The last chapter you mention where he does talk about the Pace is different than the original Pace article....it's almost like an addendum B)
Everyone should have that book too!
Lets make sure we don't violate any copyright issues before posting it. I hope is says, feel free to distribute.
ULEWZ, on Mar 30 2006, 06:25 PM, said:
Lets make sure we don't violate any copyright issues before posting it. I hope is says, feel free to distribute.<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Good point, but I do know of atleast three or four forums that it's posted as a sticky on. Not proof that it's O.K. but one could assume that if it wasn't they would have been told to remove it by now?
I might be able to find out if it would be O.K. for sure if needed?
Das Bone, on Mar 30 2006, 08:33 PM, said:
:beer: it's my favorite technique etc. book.The last chapter you mention where he does talk about the Pace is different than the original Pace article....it's almost like an addendum B)
Everyone should have that book too!
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I bought his book a couple of weeks ago, after seeing it mentioned here. Haven't set down and read it yet.
baileyrock, on Mar 29 2006, 03:31 PM, said:
Here's link to the "Pace"http://canyonchasers...ce/the_pace.php
Thanks for the link The BS'r ! :beer:
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That is the greatest article I've ever read. I just posted it in my Magna forum. At times I've tried to get my group to practice coming down the Cherohala without using brakes -- or to ride up to elevation. My brake lights work and they can verify that I'm not using mine.
Das Bone, on Mar 30 2006, 09:36 AM, said:
As I mentioned in the other thread that Bailey was refering to, we've got some addtional little tricks that we've added to our rides in terms of getting the most out of sport riding(corners) and using a bit of strategy to allow us to run the majority of corners at speed while avoiding traffic.<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Had to get to work so I didn't get to finish.
I've been working on an actual write up about this but haven't finished yet but here's the basic gist. Works well for us so maybe it will for others.
For reference, I'm all about corners(big surprise).....For me this is what I love most about riding.......by far.
So, this means that I want to take advantage of just about any curve in the road :P ........cars can and do create problems in this area <_< . If you get stuck behind a car or series of cars in the twisties chances are they will slow you down immensely thereby ruining your cornering fun.....which is just not acceptable :P
We use 3 different techniques to avoid getting stuck behind cars in the twisties.
#1 We all know and use this one......pass over the double yellow or use the passing lane to get around said car(s).
This works great much of the time, and we use it quite often.
Sometimes though this technique may not be all that practical for numerous reasons, i.e. no "safe" way to pass due to blind corners, road conditions, oncoming traffic, etc. as well as too many cars bunched up to be able to get around or not enough space for anyone other than the leader to get by and on and on.....oh, and that it's a nasty ticket if you get nailed in terms of passing over the double yellow.
So, assuming that Option #1 is not going to work at this point, here's the other two little strategies.
Here's the scenario: Some great corners are coming up but there are cars in front of you that you're not going to be able to get around(refer to previous paragraph)for one reason or another.
#2 The leader checks to make sure that there's no traffic approaching from the rear of the group, and basically just slows the group WAY down to allow the traffic up ahead to get even further up ahead as to create a gap. Once the traffic up ahead has been given enough time clear atleast some of the area, the leader can then pick up the pace and the group can rail through the corners.
This technique can be repeated as often as necessary(traffic from the rear permitting) to allow a sporting pace in the corners where the fun really is. Essentially the group is sacrificing the straights for the corners.
#3 is really just an extreme version of #2.
If the situation is such that there's either: 1) just too many cars up ahead and are going so slowly that regardless of how much the leader slows the group down, you're still not going to get to enjoy most of the corners...or 2) if there's just too much traffic behind for the leader to be able to slow the group down without causing problems for other motorists behind the group............. The leader just pulls the group off the road onto the shoulder and waits until the road ahead clears out enough to be able to run through the twisties at speed. Sometimes we wait for a very short period of time, sometimes for a minute or two, i.e whatever's required to give the group a "gap".
We use these little "tricks" all the time as needed in conjunction with our "Pace" style ride and find that, if done right our group is able to enjoy quick cornering speeds in almost all the corners on our route for that day.
I apologize for being a bit wordy but hope that it makes some sense.
Das Bone, on Mar 31 2006, 03:49 PM, said:
For reference, I'm all about corners(big surprise).....For me this is what I love most about riding.......by far.<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Like minds my friend ! I've been using all three for years myself ! :thumbsup:
baileyrock, on Mar 31 2006, 01:54 PM, said:
Like minds my friend ! I've been using all three for years myself ! :thumbsup:<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
"Like minds"......or is that "Simple minds"? :wheel:
Maybe we should do a sticky of the "Pace" and the "Corner/Traffic Strategies" to help spread the ideas around.
Kind of a "Street Strategies for the Sport Rider" sticky. Might be a cool thing to have in the "Riding Techniques" forum for everyone to refer to.
I think I might need to do a better job on the write up though :joystick:
I could take what I had begun before and redo some of what I did today and combine?????
Just a thought............
We sometimes have the lead rider pass the rolling road blocks, slow down until all can pass, than wick it on again. It doesn't make the cages very happy sometimes, but hey, they started it! :P
ULEWZ, on Mar 31 2006, 08:48 PM, said:
We sometimes have the lead rider pass the rolling road blocks, slow down until all can pass, than wick it on again. It doesn't make the cages very happy sometimes, but hey, they started it! :P<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've used the previous 3 methods - but this one ULEWZ, scares me a lttle. I'm not too crazy about becoming the punching tool of some pissed cager that doesn't like me slowing him down so my group can pass.
I'd use this one as a last resort. I'd also never do that in the States - you guys have the right to shoot at moving targets don't ya? :D
ULEWZWe sometimes have the lead rider pass the rolling road blocks, slow down until all can pass, than wick it on again. It doesn't make the cages very happy sometimes, but hey, they started it! :P
We really try to avoid using that one as I know of a couple of horror stories that have happened because a cager got very pissed off. :wheel:
I'm a litttle surprised(pleasantly) to hear that others do use the same "slow the group down to gap the cars" or the "pull off and wait to gap the cars" techniques as it seems like everyone that I've tried to explain the rationale behind it to out here seemed to think I was speaking Swahili or something :goofy:
What do you Mods think...should we do some sort of sticky with this stuff to make it available to everyone?
Das BoneWhat do you Mods think...should we do some sort of sticky with this stuff to make it available to everyone?
Been there, done that. Not me, but one of the other mods. Take a look see. :wheel:
ULEWZBeen there, done that. Not me, but one of the other mods. Take a look see. :wheel:
Guess I missed that one huh(really need that "doh" emoticon again) :lol:
baileyrockHere's link to the "Pace"http://canyonchasers.net/reference/the_pace.php
Thanks for the link The BS'r ! :beer:
Good stuff. Thanks.
Coot
I finally read this. It actually fits my riding style very well.
But, I have to have one qualm.
No hanging off? Err cog manipulation. Is this not a tried and tested technique used on a motorcycle to reduce lean angle? Why would this not be acceptable on the street? It seems to me like relying entirely on lean angle would make road hazards more of a problem...... thoughts?
Thanks for the tips on avoiding rolling roadblocks too. I have been using 1 and 2 in my own solo riding, but seeing that they are well known makes the idea of group riding easier.
One of these days I will hve to go riding with someone else. It looks like fun. :D
Cool read! I agree with Chev, though. Maybe I need to change my syle a bit, but I am in such a habit of moving my butt over on the seat to enter a turn. Left handers get right butt cheek on sadlle and vise-versa, which results in a bit of hang-off, nothing radical mind you. I find it so much easier to steer my 94 VFR that way.
I think I need a nice track day and some professional guidance again. It's been 18 years since I have been to one. :thumbsup:
A riding buddy of mine has a big 1200 BMW four, and he never hangs a knee off, but rides VERY fast and smooth lines.
ChevI finally read this.? It actually fits my riding style very well.?But, I have to have one qualm.
No hanging off?? Err cog manipulation.? Is this not a tried and tested technique used on a motorcycle to reduce lean angle?? Why would this not be acceptable on the street?? It seems to me like relying entirely on lean angle would make road hazards more of a problem...... thoughts?
I understand you're qualm as I had the same question. The main reason Nick suggests not "hanging off" as much on the street in the Pace is because it can give the appearance that one is racing/speeding to the law enforcement community.
I asked Nick about this(not hanging off on the street) and he kind of smiled and said "well.................." You get the point :P
Yes it is a technique that definitely reduces the bikes lean angle which is a very good thing for obvious saftey reasons. That's one of the first things they explain in their classes as it allows you to have a much greater safety margin for negotiating road hazards etc. as you quite rightly mentioned B)
Das BoneI asked Nick about this(not hanging off on the street) and he kind of smiled and said "well.................." You get the point :P
As long as I don't show up for my first ride, slide a bit in the first corner and get blacklisted, everything is going to be ok. :D
ChevAs long as I don't show up for my first ride, slide a bit in the first corner and get blacklisted, everything is going to be ok. :D
Exactly +1.gif
baileyrockOh sure, call me on that ! <_<Actually, we stay below 85 mph 95% of the time, but there's this one sweet section on our loop were we just let it fly. :P
I only ride straight roads and never speed..........
skuuterI only ride straight roads and never speed..........
What is your point friend? :goofy:
I'm actually falling over in my avitar! +1.gif
baileyrockWhat is your point friend? :unsure:I'm actually falling over in my avitar! :goofy:
Left you a message over on "Corner Speed".....getting to be quite a few Tennessee people on lately :thumbsup:
I remember a hot discussion here about Code's and Spencer's schools - which one is better. What was written by Ienatsch here about throttle control, no late braking, no braking, early in and open gas before apex - exactly the sameis taught by Code in his level I. smile.gif
Bumping this up fresh again as were talking about group riding rules in other threads! :cool:
I was reading the "Pace", which is pretty much how I ride(exception being I'm slower than alot of you guys). To me working on all the techno aspects of control, is as injoyable as trying to do max speed cornering(I have a big problem with pushing the speed on turns on public roads, more to do with trusting what's on the road, sand/oil/etc.). Which leads me to what I've been working on lately when I'm out riding. I've been going into turns, then changing my line in the middle of it as if there was something in my path (car/sand). I've pretty much have been able to do this anyway, but practicing it makes it a lot easier to do with more precession. The reason I thought I'd bring it up, is from all the people that seem to lose it in turns due to not being able to make that type of course change. I was just wondering if any of you ever practice stuff like this, and if it helps you, and what other things do you work on?.............. Monk
MonkI was reading the "Pace", which is pretty much how I ride(exception being I'm slower than alot of you guys). To me working on all the techno aspects of control, is as injoyable as trying to do max speed cornering(I have a big problem with pushing the speed on turns on public roads, more to do with trusting what's on the road, sand/oil/etc.). Which leads me to what I've been working on lately when I'm out riding. I've been going into turns, then changing my line in the middle of it as if there was something in my path (car/sand). I've pretty much have been able to do this anyway, but practicing it makes it a lot easier to do with more precession. The reason I thought I'd bring it up, is from all the people that seem to lose it in turns due to not being able to make that type of course change. I was just wondering if any of you ever practice stuff like this, and if it helps you, and what other things do you work on?.............. Monk
I often practice panic braking both straight and cornering, line changing(corners) & wheelies! :laugh:
Practice is what increases your chances in a panic situation as your mind already has attempted needed manuvers before, requiring less time to react. :fing02:
Something like that! :laugh:
I often practice panic braking both straight and cornering, line changing(corners) & wheelies! :laugh:Practice is what increases your chances in a panic situation as your mind already has attempted needed manuvers before, requiring less time to react. :fing02:
Something like that! :laugh:
:cool: Yea!... Like that.........
Read this article when it came out in Motorcyclist magazine. Reading it again for the first time in the many years since, it makes even more sense today. Everyone who wants to increase their skill level should consider a track based class or just do track days to make strides in cornering and braking confidense.
I've seen too many innocent low sides on the street that could have easily been fatal had a tree, power pole or on coming vehicle been there. I do lean off the bike when I ride but it's mostly for practice and not needed for the speeds I ride. A lot of times I just sit in my seat while the guys in front of me are dragging a knee through the really tight stuff and smile at how little ground they gained by each exit.
Another great thing is how relaxed and ready to still ride I feel when we arrive at our familiar stop and B.S. locations. I ride with faster guys on better equiped bikes and to feel the slightest twinge of competitiveness with them or trying to impress them would surely land me in the loser column.
IMO if you ride for any reason other than the sheer love of riding a motorcycle, commuting and proffesional riders aside, you are likely riding for the wrong reasons.
VFR Capt.BobA lot of times I just sit in my seat while the guys in front of me are dragging a knee through the really tight stuff and smile at how little ground they gained by each exit.
Really :laugh: :fing02: :laugh:
tongue.gif
I've seen that link or article several times over the years on various forums
I've got 40 mph roads that are about 80 mph max between the elevational changing blind corners, if running faster that that you got a death wish on public road.
But I've got other roads that are post 100mph in the sweepers and then slow down on the straights , alot depends on the enviornment.
Good information. Thanks!
I've Just completed an advanced riding technique school at a closed driver training facility in Brisbane, Mt Cotton, If you know it.
This technique was pretty much how the road riding section ended up. We were dong fairly fast laps and most of us were not using the brake, or just momentarily, for most of the circuit.
The thrill of the day was most definitely the thrill of getting the perfect line through each corner, picking the entrance speed , the apex and the exit line just right so that the next corner just flowed on.
Not once did any of the instructers mention "The Pace" however it was very clear, after reading this, that each of them had learned and embraced this technique.
If any of you, older riders and new alike, get the chance to do a course like this on a closed, controlled circuit I highly recommend it. There is nothing like going through a variety of different corners, and having an instructor there to ask for guideance from , or to pick you up on what you are not doing correctly, in an environment that is not peer pressure driven and safely away from other vehicles.
Thank you BR for posting this article. It is bookmarked and printed,
Tom
Sounds like a great day, I would love to attend something similar.
Nice to see you pick out the PACE in what they taught! :fing02:
BR
End of thread · 48 posts recovered Wayback Machine snapshot 18 Sep 2021