well, i'm not the biggest hayden fan - but i was certainly pulling for him early in this race. he was looking like he was going to be gutsy... dig deep and reel in nakano and gibernau, but he wasn't able or wasn't willing to do it. a foolish nakano threw a charity point at him in the last corner, though - almost got gibber as well.
hayden certainly can't just hang on to the bike and hope to win the championship... hopefully he puts his head down these last couple of races and earns himself the title.
tough day for pedrosa as well... he was quick but blew his chance very early on. the italians were fast indeed... good on capirossi for putting his head down and breaking rossi before they were wheel to wheel.
The Phantom, Sep 25 2006, 08:05 AM I think the fact that Motegi is basically HRC's 'home' track says it all...
Well it wasn't a good day for the Japanese in general & Honda in particular. KTM won both 125 & 250, Ducati won MotoGP with Yamaha second & Honda only third & the MotoGP podium was all Italian.
It has been an odd season with so many front runners on the injury list & Rossi having reliability problems early on & Hayden being compromised by having a developmental bike.
Next year with the slightly smaller bikes should assist Pedrosa - who has been the revelation for me this year.
I don't understand what goes on with Stoner. He lost the front end at Montegi but he was in a group travelling at the same speed so why was it only him who lost it? Was he slightly off the line on sliprier surface, too hard on the gas, trailing front brake, different tyre or tyre pressure? He has crashed out of many races yet is really fast while he lasts. I am mystified.
Expert opinion here on the BBc was a trailing brake .. casey has lost it a few times on the brakes this year , it something that he has got to sort out .
Nicky ? Personally I do not think that he has the bike for a fight - I think that in himself, he is willing to put up a fight, but the equipment that Honda have given him has not been good enough ( ref Dani Pedrobot also ) .
Still , Nicky reckons to like the next two - the LAST two - circuits , so we are in for an exciting finale !
If Hayden wins the championship then good for him and aleast it will be exciting this year all the way to the end of the season, however, Rossi would have it in the bag by now if it wasn't for the bike letting him down twice or Elias using him as a skittle in race one.
Melandri and Capex would also be ahead of Hayden if it hadn't been for their huge crash.
Hayden looked like he had it won in Leguna and now he is looking a lot less sure. Bottom line is the bike worked earlier in the season for him, he can blame the clutch all he wants but he could demand the old clutch, seemed to work fine for him in the wet at PI anyway.
I think that Capex or Marco could help out Hayden as they could steal points from Rossi at the last couple of rounds and that might just see Hayden home.
LOTP, Sep 26 2006, 09:28 AM If Hayden wins the championship then good for him and aleast it will be exciting this year all the way to the end of the season, however, Rossi would have it in the bag by now if it wasn't for the bike letting him down twice or Elias using him as a skittle in race one.
Melandri and Capex would also be ahead of Hayden if it hadn't been for their huge crash.
Hayden looked like he had it won in Leguna and now he is looking a lot less sure. Bottom line is the bike worked earlier in the season for him, he can blame the clutch all he wants but he could demand the old clutch, seemed to work fine for him in the wet at PI anyway.
I think that Capex or Marco could help out Hayden as they could steal points from Rossi at the last couple of rounds and that might just see Hayden home.
Will be good to watch though lurk.gif
WTF Parallell universe were you watching the PI race from?!? pissed.gif When does a clutch seem "to work fine" by getting the POLE SITTER a start in 16th place????? If it weren't for his Daytona pit experience and praticing the bike exchange after MotoGP announced the Flag to Flag rules change, he wouldn't have made up so much time during the bike exchange that Rossi (while passing under yellow) could only finish two places ahead. It surely looked like Rossi would be within 10 points as that race reached the 10 lap mark.
I think the championshire is going down to the last race (easy to say with only two races left). Before Monday when the head of HRC chaired a special meeting and test sessions to find a solution to the clutch issues I thought Rossi wouold win it. Now I think it's even money between Hayden and Rossi. But of course my vision could be fogged by the smoking clutch...
Blown engines, wrecks, clutch failures..... What do they all equal. Parts of racing. I don't care who fell out of a race in the middle of the season, cause the only thing that matters is that at the end of the season being in the front of the points. Who cares how you got there, consistanty or winning every other race and droping out of the others, so long as you are leading at the end of the season.
LOTP, Sep 26 2006, 12:17 PM Keep the excuses coming for when he blows the title.
50 points not enough? Maybe Rossi will give him 60 next season.
Estoril will be ace
Rossi is so generous to spot him the 50 points. goofy.gif
No excuses in racing, Rossi's bike just sucked on those ocassions when he DNF'd and he obviously wasn't a great enough rider to teleport himself away from potential danger when others took him out. If not for everyone else (yammie engineers, other riders, etc..) Rossi would have wrapped the championship up by Assen.
The only people that are making excuses are you bench jockeys... and Max Biaggi. goofy.gif
Rossi and Hayden both have plenty of crap to gripe about, but neither one of them have placed blame on anybody. Rossi has had reliability problems and has been a billiard ball a time or two, all of it is obvious to the casual observer. Hayden is being forced to run different equipment, though some of you don't believe it. It's not real obvious, but when you delve into the interviews of the people around him, you find that he wanted the old bike. It's cost both riders a load of points, Rossi earlier in the season, Hayden later on...almost to the point of a rookie snatching the championship from both of them until Pedrosa got hurt.
I grabbed the Motegi TV coverage with my new toy (PC TV card). The commentary is in dutch. I can compress the .WMV to 700MB so it will fit on a CD. If you missed Motegi on TV, PM me your address and I'll pop it off in the mail. (well, the first 5 anyway). Just donot post it integral on the web.
Dutchy, Sep 26 2006, 03:59 PM I grabbed the Motegi TV coverage with my new toy (PC TV card). The commentary is in dutch. I can compress the .WMV to 700MB so it will fit on a CD. If you missed Motegi on TV, PM me your address and I'll pop it off in the mail. (well, the first 5 anyway). Just donot post it integral on the web.
that race as well as many others are widely available via torrent sites - not that i condone that sort of thing.
Originally posted this to the Philip Island topic...
I asked a paddock insider I know what the real deal with HRC/Hayden is, here's his answer.
It has been the way all year at HRC that Nicky Hayden has been the lead development rider, something he didn't want to be. The reasoning behind this is HRC wanted Dani to just learn this season, without any pressure on him. Of course he's done better than many people would have thought and that has pushed him into the eye a bit more but this season Hayden is HRC's #1.
From what I've heard Nicky is doing the testing at the moment to help keep him on track title-wise, hoping the testing will keep him distracted from his shrinking points lead. Dani of course is also recovering from injuries. HRC's third rider Marco Melandri is uncontracted next year so HRC won't let him near the 800. Therefore the donkey work falls again to Nicky.
Next year Dani will be HRC's pointman though, regardless of whether Hayden wins the title or not. The new 800 is tailormade for Pedrosa not Hayden, a clear sign that HRC see Dani as their #1 for 2007 and beyond.
As for whether Nicky has a say into what parts go on his bike, short answer, no not really. HRC will push the parts onto him saying they are an improvement (whether they are or not is another matter). Nicky can dump those parts after practice though, but by then he's lost major track time. It's the downside to being Honda's number 1 man. It's no coincidence that in the last few years Honda's best rider has been the man who is number 3 in the HRC queue (Gibernau and Melandri).
Next year Dani will be HRC's pointman though, regardless of whether Hayden wins the title or not. The new 800 is tailormade for Pedrosa not Hayden, a clear sign that HRC see Dani as their #1 for 2007 and beyond.
As for whether Nicky has a say into what parts go on his bike, short answer, no not really. HRC will push the parts onto him saying they are an improvement (whether they are or not is another matter). Nicky can dump those parts after practice though, but by then he's lost major track time. It's the downside to being Honda's number 1 man. It's no coincidence that in the last few years Honda's best rider has been the man who is number 3 in the HRC queue (Gibernau and Melandri).[/b]
The current min weight for 5cyl engine bikes is 145kg and in 2007 the min weight for 4cyl engine bikes is 148kg. The 800 is going to be the same weight as the RC211V. Maybe I am missing something here but, what is it about the 800 that is tailor made for Dani???
Team politics change with the wind, what might be true one day is mostly likely going to be different the next...
The whole thing about Hayden being a development rider and it affecting him smells to me, all the top riders do it, they provide feedback, Honda creates new parts, they test them.
Doohan and Rossi both seem to have coped fine with doing this.
As I said in my original post though, the whole season to date as lined up a cracking finish to the season.
800's will be very interesting too next season, everyone starts from zero.............. in theory
rjstaaf, Sep 26 2006, 05:07 PM The current min weight for 5cyl engine bikes is 145kg and in 2007 the min weight for 4cyl engine bikes is 148kg. The 800 is going to be the same weight as the RC211V. Maybe I am missing something here but, what is it about the 800 that is tailor made for Dani???
Size?
Maybe the 800 chassis dimensions/rider interface is smaller so that Asimo, Er, I mean Dani, can fit on the bike better?
rjstaaf, Sep 27 2006, 01:07 AM The current min weight for 5cyl engine bikes is 145kg and in 2007 the min weight for 4cyl engine bikes is 148kg. The 800 is going to be the same weight as the RC211V. Maybe I am missing something here but, what is it about the 800 that is tailor made for Dani???
Team politics change with the wind, what might be true one day is mostly likely going to be different the next...
I had not relised that. The new Honda 800 certainly looks much smaller but that may be just because of the short tail it has. I think it looks wonderful and the Tok Tokkie exhaust it has helps.
rjstaaf, Sep 26 2006, 06:07 PM The current min weight for 5cyl engine bikes is 145kg and in 2007 the min weight for 4cyl engine bikes is 148kg. The 800 is going to be the same weight as the RC211V. Maybe I am missing something here but, what is it about the 800 that is tailor made for Dani???
He's already at a weight advantage over other riders. We've established that shaving weight equates to a gain in horsepower. The lower horsepower will not affect his acceleration as much as heavier riders, therefore it's to his advantage. If the bike is physically smaller, he should be more comfortable where the taller riders will be cramped tight. That's just a creature comfort, but it might cause other riders to tire quicker...don't know.
tbzep, Sep 27 2006, 01:03 PM He's already at a weight advantage over other riders. We've established that shaving weight equates to a gain in horsepower. The lower horsepower will not affect his acceleration as much as heavier riders, therefore it's to his advantage. If the bike is physically smaller, he should be more comfortable where the taller riders will be cramped tight. That's just a creature comfort, but it might cause other riders to tire quicker...don't know.
He already had the weight advantage, nothing new there. Not sure how the horsepower difference even matters. Consider that the speeds from the first test of the 800 are within a second of the RC211V. With the weight of the bikes being the same and the speeds almost the same, Dani is gonna have pretty much the same amount of work to to do trying to get that bike through the corners.
I seriously doubt the bike is significantly smaller. I think the chopped tail section makes the bike look smaller. Forget Nicky for a moment, there are several other riders that will also be riding that bike. If I am not mistaken there are currently 6 Honda riders on the RC211V in MotoGP. Does anyone actually believe that this bike is physically smaller to fit Dani at the expense of 5 other riders? Come on, this is Honda we are talking about. Dani has exceeded everyone's expectations, there is no doubt he is a great rider but, I seriously doubt Honda is going to put all their eggs in one basket.
tbzep, Sep 27 2006, 07:03 PM He's already at a weight advantage over other riders. We've established that shaving weight equates to a gain in horsepower. The lower horsepower will not affect his acceleration as much as heavier riders, therefore it's to his advantage. If the bike is physically smaller, he should be more comfortable where the taller riders will be cramped tight. That's just a creature comfort, but it might cause other riders to tire quicker...don't know.
Went to a kart track last week, all karts being equal, I carried at least 10 kilos over the others.... Well that is my excuse for not winning and I stick to it beer.gif
rjstaaf, Sep 27 2006, 12:17 PM He already had the weight advantage, nothing new there.
Yes, but the less power a bike has, the more a weight advantage is magnified. All the 125 riders are tiny. All the successful 250 riders are tiny. There's a good reason that nobody Nicky's size has won in those classes.
tbzep, Sep 27 2006, 01:44 PM Yes, but the less power a bike has, the more a weight advantage is magnified. All the 125 riders are tiny. All the successful 250 riders are tiny. There's a good reason that nobody Nicky's size has won in those classes.
Your example though is at the extreme end of the spectrum. I seriously doubt there would be a significant difference in the weight advantage Dani has going from 990cc to 800cc, if any.
rjstaaf, Sep 27 2006, 12:52 PM Your example though is at the extreme end of the spectrum. I seriously doubt there would be a significant difference in the weight advantage Dani has going from 990cc to 800cc, if any.
Of course my example was at the extreme end, but it proves the point that lighter riders do better with less horsepower. We are talking about differences of thousandths of a second seperating MotoGP riders.
Just a few horsepower make a heckuva lot of difference. In the past it's been stated that losing a few pounds (was it 8?, maybe 10) off the bike is the same as gaining 1 horsepower. Dani weighs about 30-40 pounds less than some of the riders. That's the equivalent of 4 or 5 horsepower and that's huge. Even if I'm off in my numbers, just 1 or 2 horsepower makes a difference drafting down the straights and I've already seen Pedrosa gain and pass Hayden on straights this year, presuming their bikes make about the same hp.
The 190cc change for next year is huge. Think of the current horsepower to cc ratio. It's something like 990cc to 250hp so that's something like 4cc per horsepower. The change in displacement could knock off nearly 50hp, probably less due to development of more efficient engines, but still more than 40hp. A 40hp drop will definately benefit the lighter riders.
I have grown up around car racing, and drove myself for a number of years. Mainly in go-karts, but also raced mini sprints and did some one day stands in a modified. At the time (16 years old) I was a small person, 5'8" and around 120 pounds (product of way too much running and training for CC). All of the classes that I drove in were minium weight requirement for driver and car together. This leveled the playing field across the board, I being small, however still had a huge advantage over the larger driver, because I was able to put the extra weight where I wanted it. Why cant, or why isn't this the standard in other forms of racing.
tbzep, Sep 27 2006, 02:36 PM Of course my example was at the extreme end, but it proves the point that lighter riders do better with less horsepower. We are talking about differences of thousandths of a second seperating MotoGP riders.
Just a few horsepower make a heckuva lot of difference. In the past it's been stated that losing a few pounds (was it 8?, maybe 10) off the bike is the same as gaining 1 horsepower. Dani weighs about 30-40 pounds less than some of the riders. That's the equivalent of 4 or 5 horsepower and that's huge. Even if I'm off in my numbers, just 1 or 2 horsepower makes a difference drafting down the straights and I've already seen Pedrosa gain and pass Hayden on straights this year, presuming their bikes make about the same hp.
The 190cc change for next year is huge. Think of the current horsepower to cc ratio. It's something like 990cc to 250hp so that's something like 4cc per horsepower. The change in displacement could knock off nearly 50hp, probably less due to development of more efficient engines, but still more than 40hp. A 40hp drop will definately benefit the lighter riders.
The problem is though you don't really know statistically what the difference is with the 190cc change, you are purely speculating. I would be curious to see some real numbers. I do understand that at the 125/250cc level a weight advantage is a big deal but, at this level when the bikes are making this much power I think the difference is going to be even less than you are stating.
Regardless, 2007 is going to be an interesting season. I am going to have to get surround sound so I can get the trackside experience and enjoy the sound of those 800s...
End of thread · 30 posts recoveredWayback Machine snapshot 18 Oct 2006