Vfr Frame Design Also Dissapearing From The Industry?

Not that it was ever common to start with, but it seems like the frame design on our bikes is now not that common out there, even to some extent, within the Honda product line. I'm talking about the extruded aluminum frame spar perimeter frame design on the VFR. Most bikes out there emply mostly welded aluminum plate construction to make up their frame spars and swingarms. Even the extruded aluminum frame spars on Honda CBRs are shrinking to almost vestigial pieces, mostly replaced by high pressure diecast aluminum pieces. Are the straight long spar designs on the VFRs becoming old-tech/obsolete/technical dead-end stuff?? This question popped into my mind when I was reading an article about the new Ducati 1098, which after all these years, still employs Ducati's now traditional, chromemoly steel lattice basic frame design. Seems like if there is anything that could have been a traditional frame design for Honda, it would be the extruded aluminum frame spar design that was carried on from the RC30, up to the present 6th gen. It would be truly sad to see something very familiar to many Honda riders, just mostly dissapear with the end of the VFR line. It seems like tradition in a lot of Japanese motorcycle companies does not carry over as much as they do with the Italians and to some extent, the Germans too.
Just a thought.

Beck
95 VFR

What was the question again? :confused:
The VTR also employed the same frame design, along with the 'pivotless' swingarm mounting (i.e., pivots in the engine cases instead of the frame).

Does it really matter though? Surely it's a good thing for things to advance and develop, unless it's just for fashion reasons (like black powdercoated frames). Would your average Honda owner/rider have even noticed it, let alone thought about it? I'd imagine they'd notice the colour, but not the construction method employed.

Does what is used in racing trickle down to road bikes? What does the RC211V and the new bike (whatever it's called) use?

I'm just wondering why something that seems to be a basically very good frame design approach is starting to be forgotten(?) and whether the reasons are mostly technical limits being reached or just cosmetics.
The (then) big looking twin extruded spar frames on the VFR and Honda Hawk used to look so impressive when viewed against the then more common pressed steel and tube trellis frames on other sportbikes, including the older CBRs. Once the VFR/RC51 is gone....that design you see under you........is gone. As I mentioned the CBR frames, although similar only has vestigial amounts of the twin spars as we know it, left on the frame.

Beck
95 VFR

I won't shed a single tear if they replace it with [something better].

These new designs are all fostered by advances in technology, especially those in CAD/CAM design and machine/manufacturing advances. The new Ducati may still employ a steel trellis frame, but it's been optimized by being entirely designed and virtually tested on a computer screen, instead of trial and error while practicing with production materials.

This also brings costs down, because less is being wasted, and the world economy has grown to a point where batches of small parts can be "farmed out" by a manufacturer to smaller companies who undercut others' bids on the jobs so they can stay in business, which affords the larger company more time and money to devote to product enhancement.

These things are all good for the consumers like us, we get better stuff for our money! (IMG:style_emoticons/oldemoticons/fing02.gif)

SEBSPEED, Dec 15 2006, 01:53 PM.... the world economy has grown to a point where batches of small parts can be "farmed out" by a manufacturer to smaller companies who undercut others' bids on the jobs so they can stay in business, which affords the larger company more time and money to devote to product enhancement.

Ah yes - like Honda farming out production of things that aren't "core business" to smaller companies.
Like R/Rs to Shindengen.
Who make a wide range of electrical products, including big-ass R/Rs much superior to those Honda order for their VFRs.
Which fail because although they're compact enough to hide their ugly mofo ugliness away under the tupperware, they're inadequate for the task.
Which Shindengen tell them (presumably).
Which Honda ignores, presumably because to admit there's a problem, and that it's of your making, is a loss of face.
And because they usually don't fail until AFTER the end of the Japanese lifetime for moto vehicles, so who cares?
And no-one in Murka ever died from one failing, then sued Honda, so who cares?

But eventually, somehow, 9 or 10 years after they first produced big, grunty models of R/Rs, Shindengen finally get an order from Honda for a large, finned R/R to fit to the VFR.
And a few years later, when Honda finally introduce underseat exhausts which saw their debut on the NR back in 1989(?) to the VFR, they discover they can no longer hide the R/R under the tupperware.
What to do? WHAT TO DO?!?
Hey - let's stick it on the outside!
Where it can get some cooling air!
(But not TOO much; let's stick it by the radiator, so it doesn't get too cool on those frosty mornings...)

[/fantasy mode off]
[/rant over]

The 'twin-spar' looks good. As long as whatever they replace it with also looks aesthetically pleasing, I'm OK with it. Bikes like the Britten didn't even really have frames at all.

The multi-triangulated trellis frame design of the Ducati was simply ahead of its time and continues to be a functional design that also looks good today.

SAFE-T, Dec 15 2006, 02:15 PMThe multi-triangulated trellis frame design of the Ducati was simply ahead of its time and continues to be a functional design that also looks good today.

Where functional = "strong and light" (for a given value of 'strong' and 'light').

Yeah I like my Honda frame, but the frame I really want is....

[image: triton.jpg]

but the frame I really want is....

'Triton'? With Triumph Featherbed frame and Norton motor...

Tuned flex is probably another reason for the demise of the symetrical twin-spar frame - it's still a black art, but engineers are getting more of a handle on making it work.

The Phantom, Dec 15 2006, 11:09 AM

but the frame I really want is....

'Triton'? With Triumph Featherbed frame and Norton motor...

Aren't they Triumph engines in Norton frames???

Oooops yep that's right Dutchy (IMG:style_emoticons/oldemoticons/blush.gif)

Dutchy, Dec 15 2006, 02:44 PM

The Phantom, Dec 15 2006, 11:09 AM

but the frame I really want is....

'Triton'? With Triumph Featherbed frame and Norton motor...

Aren't they Triumph engines in Norton frames???

Come on Phantom. As he says. Norton frame with Triumph engine. The real deal was a NorVin which was a Vincent engine in a Norton frame - you should know that because of the intimate link between Vincent & Oz. (Am I the only VFRD member who has owned a Vincent? It was ok but it was only 500cc so does not really count as a proper Vincent but 4psi oil pressure sure gave excellent longevity)

Tried-and-true may work great, but designs keep improving all the time. No reason not to move on. I was glad to see Yamaha has switched the swingarm for the FZ6. I'm not buying one, but the new version looks much better.

I was surprised the new 1098 has a steel frame, but IIRC they're using larger diameter but thinner-walled tubes, increasing rigidity but decreasing weight. Bicycle mfrs have been doing that for years, mostly with aluminum. Cannondale and Klein especially.

Those Honda aluminum frames are hearty. Case in point is my 98 CBR racebike. I can't tell you how many times it has crashed (my buddy owned it before me). Maybe 15+? Mostly lowsides, but one or two highsides.

The bike was computracked and straight after 12 crashes!! The same buddy replaced the CBR with an 04 R6. The pressure casting in the subframe fractured in two places the first time he lowsided! Big bucks to fix.

Granted the R6 is lighter by a large margin, but at a cost to longevity and crashability.

I don't mind my VFR being heavier if it means it is tougher!!

Triumph engine in a Rickman Matisse frame.......nickel plated, stripped to bare bones......they were VERY clean, handled great.... (IMG:style_emoticons/oldemoticons/fing02.gif)

TimC, Dec 21 2006, 10:21 AMI was surprised the new 1098 has a steel frame, but IIRC they're using larger diameter but thinner-walled tubes, increasing rigidity but decreasing weight. Bicycle mfrs have been doing that for years, mostly with aluminum. Cannondale and Klein especially.

Cannondale and Klein originally, but practically everyone now. I still prefer steal road frames, but my newest has an oversize thin-walled tubeset (True Temper S3), large enough that some folks think it's aluminum.

Ducati will stick with the trellis frame, just like they'll stick with desmo, as long as they can, because that's what makes them Ducati. I don't think there's an advantage in either case, but it's cool that they can still be very competitive in MotoGP with this old-school technology. Steel tube frames have been around for 100 years, and desmo for 50.

Beck, Dec 14 2006, 09:09 PMNot that it was ever common to start with, but it seems like the frame design on our bikes is now not that common out there, even to some extent, within the Honda product line.

Your comparing apples to oranges (V4 vs IL4). I can't recall any IL4 with an "vfr" type frame. The extra width of the transverse four requires a different design/layout.