So I put the order in with Traxxion Dynamic's for the new Penske 8900-8100 Shock:goofy:(aadjustable Comp/Rebound with ride height. No pre-load as I don't do much 2 up riding; so i didn't see the need). So now I am wondering what to do with the front end? Any feed back would be great, here are my options. Option 1: Send the Stockers to Traxxion Dynamics - They put in new springs, axxion Valves, rebuild the Comp stack, service etc.
Cost is $700.00
Up's
Cost effective Downs
No adjust ability
Option 2: Order the AK20 Kit, Springs, etc. Build myself with correct oil levels etc.
Cost is $1100.00 and change
Up's
Add's Rebound adjustment with fork caps Downs
Cost is way more
Only get rebound
Also any feed back on the Penske vs the Ohlins? wink.gif I hear both good and bad about the Ohlins plus I have never owned one. I have owned 3 Penske's, a few Fox Shocks and some other stuff over the years. I also find it hard to find anything negative on the Penske setups. So any thoughts or comments are welcomed. I have 3 weeks to wait for the Penske. If some one can tell me why I should get the Ohlins over the Penske please enlighten me. While I still have time to get the order changed.
I would go with the $700 fork option because it is cheaper. I have been thinking about having mine done with this as well.
I don't think there is much difference between the Penske and the high end Ohlins. I have the 46DRLS with remote reservoir and preload and love it, but I am sure the Penske is just as good.
I've had penske and ohlins on my superhawk but both were used. Both were good. I also had a new ohlins (rebound only) on my first vtec. I now have a triple adjuster wilbers on my second vtec. It's been the best of all and cheaper too (except the used ones of course).
waterkc, Apr 23 2007, 10:08 PMSo I put the order in with Traxxion Dynamic's for the new Penske 8900-8100 Shock:goofy:(aadjustable Comp/Rebound with ride height. No pre-load as I don't do much 2 up riding; so i didn't see the need). So now I am wondering what to do with the front end? Any feed back would be great, here are my options. Option 1: Send the Stockers to Traxxion Dynamics - They put in new springs, axxion Valves, rebuild the Comp stack, service etc.
Cost is $700.00
Up's
Cost effective Downs
No adjust ability
Option 2: Order the AK20 Kit, Springs, etc. Build myself with correct oil levels etc.
Cost is $1100.00 and change
Up's
Add's Rebound adjustment with fork caps Downs
Cost is way more
Only get rebound
Also any feed back on the Penske vs the Ohlins? wink.gif I hear both good and bad about the Ohlins plus I have never owned one. I have owned 3 Penske's, a few Fox Shocks and some other stuff over the years. I also find it hard to find anything negative on the Penske setups. So any thoughts or comments are welcomed. I have 3 weeks to wait for the Penske. If some one can tell me why I should get the Ohlins over the Penske please enlighten me. While I still have time to get the order changed.
Buy racetech stuff and do the forks yourself if you want to save money. Put in the internals from a CBR if you want more adjustability.
waterkc, Apr 24 2007, 12:08 AMOption 1: Send the Stockers to Traxxion Dynamics - They put in new springs, axxion Valves, rebuild the Comp stack, service Option 2: Order the AK20 Kit, Springs, etc. Build myself with correct oil levels etc.
I don't think the added cost of AK20s would be rewarded with matching benefits on any less than a race bike.
Factoid of the day: Penske also manufactures a re-valve kit for fork cartridges.
AFAIK, it isn't available to the general public though; customers must have have it installed by some Penske-approved outlet, like GMD Computrack. Anyone else looked into this?
I have seen pictures of the Penske valves, and they're made remarkably like (but not identical to) Axxion valves.
PS: I just want someone to get a Penske re-worked VFR fork so they can tell me all about it later and maybe sometime let me ride it a bit or perhaps even take it home for a short while so that maybe I can check it out some more or possibly pull it completely apart so as to have a li'l ol' look around inside...
thx1139, Apr 24 2007, 08:53 PMPS: I just want someone to get a Penske re-worked VFR fork so they can tell me all about it later and maybe sometime let me ride it a bit or perhaps even take it home for a short while so that maybe I can check it out some more or possibly pull it completely apart so as to have a li'l ol' look around inside...
I'll gladly volunteer my forks if you'll pay for the experiment fing02.gif
jeremy556, Apr 24 2007, 09:25 PMI'll gladly volunteer my forks if you'll pay for the experiment fing02.gif
Heh, no wait; -that's backwards... idea3.gif YOU pay ME to have my VFR fork Penskefied. I'll go ride the poop out of it, then totally reverse engineer the mods, and post a HowTo. Then we can ALL partake of the Penske fork goodness. [cue sounds of singing birds, angels] Yeah! that's the ticket! fing02.gif fing02.gif
What made you decide to change the suspension on a brand new bike?
Looking for some more tunability, its not that the stock stuff is bad. Just want the adjust-ability really, The Front is soft no matter how hard I crank it and for my weight I need a 1300 rear spring and a 1.05 front springs. So I know the stock valving will not support those rates springs. So If I am going to do it, I do it right. Well right for me that is.
waterkc, Apr 23 2007, 10:08 PMSo I put the order in with Traxxion Dynamic's for the new Penske 8900-8100 Shock:goofy:(aadjustable Comp/Rebound with ride height. No pre-load as I don't do much 2 up riding; so i didn't see the need). So now I am wondering what to do with the front end? Any feed back would be great, here are my options. Option 1: Send the Stockers to Traxxion Dynamics - They put in new springs, axxion Valves, rebuild the Comp stack, service etc.
Cost is $700.00
Up's
Cost effective Downs
No adjust ability
Option 2: Order the AK20 Kit, Springs, etc. Build myself with correct oil levels etc.
Cost is $1100.00 and change
Up's
Add's Rebound adjustment with fork caps Downs
Cost is way more
Only get rebound
Also any feed back on the Penske vs the Ohlins? wink.gif I hear both good and bad about the Ohlins plus I have never owned one. I have owned 3 Penske's, a few Fox Shocks and some other stuff over the years. I also find it hard to find anything negative on the Penske setups. So any thoughts or comments are welcomed. I have 3 weeks to wait for the Penske. If some one can tell me why I should get the Ohlins over the Penske please enlighten me. While I still have time to get the order changed.
Buy racetech stuff and do the forks yourself if you want to save money. Put in the internals from a CBR if you want more adjustability.
So what type CBR internals? F4I? Also I have not looked at the racetech stuff, that is a good idea. More to come on that. But I am interested in the F4i parts, which ones etc
waterkc, Apr 24 2007, 11:33 PMSo what type CBR internals? F4I? Also I have not looked at the racetech stuff, that is a good idea. More to come on that. But I am interested in the F4i parts, which ones etc
You're in CA and should talk to Phil Douglas at Aftershocks. He reworked my front forks (modified springs, revalve, etc for around $400) and it worked out very well. I too have a Penske and the front forks work well with the aftermarket shock. If you wish to go with the Axion kit, Phil is also a dealer of Traxxion products as well. Check him out here, I highly recommend his work. Can't get the link to work, so here is the address. www.aftershocks-suspension.com
VFRbar, Apr 24 2007, 09:18 PMYou're in CA and should talk to Phil Douglas at Aftershocks. He reworked my front forks (modified springs, revalve, etc for around $400) and it worked out very well. I too have a Penske and the front forks work well with the aftermarket shock. If you wish to go with the Axion kit, Phil is also a dealer of Traxxion products as well. Check him out here, I highly recommend his work. Can't get the link to work, so here is the address. www.aftershocks-suspension.com
Thanks for the info, I will look him up. I am thinking of doing them myself. Should be a blast, Maybe the Gold Valves in a set of Ebay F4i Forks maybe that way I get the rebound control.
More to come as I work it out in my head, keeping my eye out for some forks on Ebay.
any one here have a set they are willing to part with?
waterkc, Apr 24 2007, 12:08 AMSo I put the order in with Traxxion Dynamic's for the new Penske 8900-8100 Shock:goofy:(aadjustable Comp/Rebound with ride height. No pre-load as I don't do much 2 up riding; so i didn't see the need). So now I am wondering what to do with the front end? Any feed back would be great, here are my options. Option 1: Send the Stockers to Traxxion Dynamics - They put in new springs, axxion Valves, rebuild the Comp stack, service etc.
Cost is $700.00
Up's
Cost effective Downs
No adjust ability
Option 2: Order the AK20 Kit, Springs, etc. Build myself with correct oil levels etc.
Cost is $1100.00 and change
Up's
Add's Rebound adjustment with fork caps Downs
Cost is way more
Only get rebound
Also any feed back on the Penske vs the Ohlins? wink.gif I hear both good and bad about the Ohlins plus I have never owned one. I have owned 3 Penske's, a few Fox Shocks and some other stuff over the years. I also find it hard to find anything negative on the Penske setups. So any thoughts or comments are welcomed. I have 3 weeks to wait for the Penske. If some one can tell me why I should get the Ohlins over the Penske please enlighten me. While I still have time to get the order changed.
Whatever you do... let me know if you are going to work with Traxxion Dynamics. They are just around the corner from me an my neighbor works there... so maybe I can look into your work or ask my buddy if there are discounts to be had smile.gif
I've got the AK-20's and they are good, but I'm not sure I would have been happy paying full retail for them ($1150). Something less expensive would probably have been just as good for me and my riding style on the street. I bought them from VFRMonkey when he upgraded to an RC-51 front end. This week I was actually thinking they need to come back off and get freshened up. Not sure how long he had them on his bike, but they have been on mine almost a year now. The front seems a little bouncy. Ended up putting a Wilber's on the back during the group buy a few months ago. That still needs some tweaking as well to get perfect. Just haven't had the time lately to play with it and all of the settings. blink.gif
What made you decide to change the suspension on a brand new bike?
Looking for some more tunability, its not that the stock stuff is bad. Just want the adjust-ability really, The Front is soft no matter how hard I crank it and for my weight I need a 1300 rear spring and a 1.05 front springs. So I know the stock valving will not support those rates springs. So If I am going to do it, I do it right. Well right for me that is.
If you don't mind me asking, how much do you weigh. I am 208, and the bike seems fine to me, but I haven't ridden many other sportbikes and I haven't taken anything else to the track.
What made you decide to change the suspension on a brand new bike?
Looking for some more tunability, its not that the stock stuff is bad. Just want the adjust-ability really, The Front is soft no matter how hard I crank it and for my weight I need a 1300 rear spring and a 1.05 front springs. So I know the stock valving will not support those rates springs. So If I am going to do it, I do it right. Well right for me that is.
If you don't mind me asking, how much do you weigh. I am 208, and the bike seems fine to me, but I haven't ridden many other sportbikes and I haven't taken anything else to the track.
Well I weigh in at a feather 240 and 6'2. Stocky build. I believe I heard the words Country-Boy once or twice, hehe.
Can you believe that I just got the shock yesterday and I ordered it around the middle of May. Urgh! Dan took care of me, I only need to know dig in and figure out to get it shoe-horned in there.
Can't help you on detials since I swapped the rear shock on my 4th Gen.
Look up the relavant pages in the workshop manual
Do a search on "wilbers" on VFRD to find posts with pictures/descriptions
put the small parts/nuts&bolts you take off in a separate bag and label them. [image: HPIM3535.jpg] take the rear wheel off to have less weight on the swing arm. use torque wrench(es) to ensure eveything is tight according to speq. wrap the shock in some paper towel to prevent scratching it when you slot it in [image: HPIM7005.jpg] try both ways of fitting the shock and see if the banjo bolt/hose interferes in any way
I just ordered a Penske Sport shock(not adjustable) and was told that the leadtime was 3 weeks--I hope it doesn't take 2 months like yours did! I also ordered a Racetech Gold Valve kit for the forks. All ordered from GMD Computrack who seemed to know what they are talking about and are local to me. I called Traxxion and he told me I need a 1300lb spring for 160 lb rider--that's what his web site says too--wasn't impressed. 1300lb spring would probably give me about 1mm sag!
MikeG, Jul 13 2007, 08:38 PMI just ordered a Penske Sport shock(not adjustable) and was told that the leadtime was 3 weeks--I hope it doesn't take 2 months like yours did! I also ordered a Racetech Gold Valve kit for the forks. All ordered from GMD Computrack who seemed to know what they are talking about and are local to me. I called Traxxion and he told me I need a 1300lb spring for 160 lb rider--that's what his web site says too--wasn't impressed. 1300lb spring would probably give me about 1mm sag!
I really do not understand why you, "wasn't impressed." You have never actually tried a shock with a 1300lb spring but just assume it will be too stiff? It is absolutely impossible to only have 1mm of sag on a VFR with a 1300lb spring. We have done a ton of hands on R&D with the VFR to come up with that spring rate so it�s not like we just pulled a number out of the air.
I would be very interested in knowing what spring rate you went with and what you free sag and rider sag numbers are.
MikeG, Jul 13 2007, 08:38 PMI just ordered a Penske Sport shock(not adjustable) and was told that the leadtime was 3 weeks--I hope it doesn't take 2 months like yours did! I also ordered a Racetech Gold Valve kit for the forks. All ordered from GMD Computrack who seemed to know what they are talking about and are local to me. I called Traxxion and he told me I need a 1300lb spring for 160 lb rider--that's what his web site says too--wasn't impressed. 1300lb spring would probably give me about 1mm sag!
I really do not understand why you, "wasn't impressed." You have never actually tried a shock with a 1300lb spring but just assume it will be too stiff? It is absolutely impossible to only have 1mm of sag on a VFR with a 1300lb spring. We have done a ton of hands on R&D with the VFR to come up with that spring rate so it�s not like we just pulled a number out of the air.
I would be very interested in knowing what spring rate you went with and what you free sag and rider sag numbers are.
Mike
Traxxion Dynamics
Hey...welcome to the forum! Always good to have a person working on the inside to ask questions too. fing02.gif
Mike@Traxxion, I do not want to get in a fire fight with Traxxion because I'm sure you know far more than I do about suspension. I know Traxxion has a good name so I called you first. I did a fair amount of research on shocks and found that the stock shock is 15.3kg/mm or about 850lbs/in. I used to have a CBR1100XX and that supposedly has a ~16kg/mm or about 900lbs/in. Your website lists a 1000lb spring for the 1100XX, which makes sense, and a 1300 lb spring for the VFR. Given that I weigh about 160, I could not believe that you recommend a spring almost 50% heavier. The bike already rides very firm and is on the 2nd or 3rd preload. It is hard to believe that a 1300 lb spring would not ride like a truck. Am I missing something? By the way, I am an engineer so I do understand how springs work. If you really have installed 1300 lb springs on VFR's for people my weight, and they were satisfied, then I stand corrected. MikeG
MikeG, Jul 16 2007, 09:48 PMMike@Traxxion, I do not want to get in a fire fight with Traxxion because I'm sure you know far more than I do about suspension. I know Traxxion has a good name so I called you first. I did a fair amount of research on shocks and found that the stock shock is 15.3kg/mm or about 850lbs/in. I used to have a CBR1100XX and that supposedly has a ~16kg/mm or about 900lbs/in. Your website lists a 1000lb spring for the 1100XX, which makes sense, and a 1300 lb spring for the VFR. Given that I weigh about 160, I could not believe that you recommend a spring almost 50% heavier. The bike already rides very firm and is on the 2nd or 3rd preload. It is hard to believe that a 1300 lb spring would not ride like a truck. Am I missing something? By the way, I am an engineer so I do understand how springs work. If you really have installed 1300 lb springs on VFR's for people my weight, and they were satisfied, then I stand corrected. MikeG
Mike, I'm not trying to start anything myself. I just came across this tread and saw a lot of miss-information so I stuck my fat head in. Sorry if I came across the wrong way to anyone. As a matter of fact we have installed countless 1300lb springs on VFRs. The harshness you feel stock is two fold. One the stock spring is too soft and over preloaded. There is typically way too much initial preload on a stock spring. The initial preload is something you can not change. When you preload is backed all the way off there is still some preload on the spring. By cranking in more preload you are not affecting the spring rate you are only squashing the spring more initially. If the spring is too soft it will still travel through the stroke of the spring and even bottom out. Secondly, the compression valving is too heavy. To make up for the soft spring the stock compression valving is typically heavier then needed which can lead to harshness over bumps. My point is we R&D a bike in house with Max who weights about 150lbs and we settled on a 1300lbs spring. The linkage is very progressive and puts a ton of leverage on the shock. I went through the same process on my Speed Triple. I went from a 700lb spring to a 1300lb spring. Now it rocks! Who would believe the correct spring for the average weight guy on a NT650 Hawk is 1300lbs? It's not all the weight of the bike and rider but the leverage the swing arm is putting on the shock had a lot to do with the spring rate as well. Any way, thanks for listening. I will go back in my hole now. fing02.gif
Thanks for the good info. Your explanation that the stock spring is preloaded too much even when dialed down to minimum makes a lot of sense. It sounds like you have done the testing with good results, so I cannot argue with that. I'll see how my shock works out when I get it and I'll report into the forum. MikeG
I got my Penske and installed it yesterday. It was built with a 1000lb Hyperpro spring and seems to work very well. Came directly from Penske through GMD Computrak. I don't know how much preload it has--might have more preload than Traxxion uses with their 1300lb spring. I guess there are different ways to achieve the same results. The rides and handling is very good--took away all the sharp edged bumps, but still taut. Good product no matter who you buy from. MikeG
MikeG, Jul 30 2007, 11:45 AMI got my Penske and installed it yesterday. It was built with a 1000lb Hyperpro spring and seems to work very well. Came directly from Penske through GMD Computrak. I don't know how much preload it has--might have more preload than Traxxion uses with their 1300lb spring. I guess there are different ways to achieve the same results. The rides and handling is very good--took away all the sharp edged bumps, but still taut. Good product no matter who you buy from. MikeG
My understanding is that different preload does not change the spring rate. Spring rate is a separate issue.
The force a spring exerts is equal to K multiplied times x, where K is the spring constant(lbs/in), and x is the deflection from it free length. As you squeeze a spring the force goes up linearly until you reach it's elastic limit, where it permanently deforms. If you deflect a 800lb/in spring by 1", it will take 800lbs to do it. If you preload a spring by 1", then deflect it another 1", the total deflection will be 2" and the force will be 1600lbs. That is why you add preload when you ride with a passenger. So, preloading a spring does not change it's spring constant, but it does increase it's force for additional deflection. MikeG
I have been going through the same dilemna myself this week concerning my shock spring also. I have a Penske double adjustable shock on my VFR that Traxxion set up for me a couple of years ago. They installed a 1400# spring on it when I ordered. I was a really big guy at the time.
Luckily, I've lost about 40-45# in the last year and the rear end of the VFR is getting to ride a little rough. I'm down to 245 now. I've been wondering if it is time to go to a lighter shock spring. I've talked to Traxxion, RaceTech, Lindemann, and indirectly to AfterShocks. Phil has recently been involved in a motorcycle accident so he is not getting to put as much time in the shop as normal. I talked with Sarah in his shop.
They all agreed (with the exception of RaceTech), that a 1250-1400# spring is the correct spring. I spoke with Jim Lindemann Friday and he suggested that I try the "10/20" test. If the bike has the correct spring on it, it should have 10 mm of static sag (without the rider) and then an additional 20 mm sag when the rider climbs aboard. If you get those numbers, you have the correct spring.
As you guys get to know me through my posts, you will learn that I have a propensity for thinking some things to death. I do enjoy the tinkering and modifiying my bikes just about as much as riding them.
One thing I've been thinking about concerning this subject: Is Racetech/Lindemann/Aftershocks/Traxxion too race oriented? As an analogy, do you think that even though both types of bikes are out and out race bikes, don't you imagine there is a completely different setup for an Isle of Mann type bike vs. a MotoGP bike? The Isle of Mann doesn't look near as smooth as Laguna Seca.
I live the metro Atlanta area. I've either raced or done track schools at Road Atlanta (both original and current), Savannah, and Jennings in this area. I can tell you for a fact, those tracks a lot smoother than the roads and highways of north GA (Highway 60, Wolf Pen Gap Road, etc).
We run one tire setup/pressures for track days vs. the street. Would we not do the same with spring rates and compression/rebound rates?
One thing I will say for Traxxion. Mike is the man to deal with. Calling a spade a spade, Max runs the business but Mike is the one really doing the work. Don't mean to step on your toes Max, but I've spent a ton of money with you guys over the years and that is my impression.
One last thing and I will shut up. Fork springs are a more apples to apples thing to compare from one bike to another. Due to mechancial linkages, moments, pivot arm lengths, etc. you can't make the same comparion of bike X needs an X # spring and bike Y needs a Y # spring. If the linkages are engineered differently, you're comparing apples to oranges.
For instance, Mike built my Penske for my VFR with a 1400 # spring. He built the Penske for my ST1300 with a 1000 # spring.
Springs are relatively cheap. Hyperco springs can be purchased from a racecar oriented website like Performanceshock.com for $75-85 each. They have a ton of different length, diameter, and stiffnesses available. Penske shocks seem to use 2.25" id springs either 6 or 7 inches long. Springs on a Penske are a piece of cake to change. Takes maybe all of 5 minutes and absolutely no special tools. That is, once you get the shock off the bike.
Time to shut up and get the metric tape measure out. "Oh honey, could you help me in the basement for a few minutes?" I'll report my results.
P.S. Good luck to Phil Douglas. Hope you heal up well and soon.
One last thing I forgot to add about the Penske shock. Spend the few extra dollars and get the Torrington radial bearing that fits between the preload adjuster and the spring. With a 1200-1400# spring, there is a lot of friction there. You will wallow out the adjustment holes in a hurry trying to turn the preload collar if you don't have the radial bearing. They'er not all that expensive and worth every penny.
Makes turning the preload collar as smooth as butta.
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