Transformed Wow !

Boy was I wrong on my theory related to rear spring rate.

I had Phil at Aftershocks re-valve and re-spring my Vtec forks last summer and while I felt an improvement with the forks I wasn't happy with the bikes handling.

I installed a CBR Ohlins on the rear at the same time as the redone forks, but I did not increase the spring rate for fear of a horrendous ride and I thought that if I could get the proper SAG with the stock rate spring than everything was cool. As mentioned I wasn't really impressed with the set-up and was considering another complete front end swap to a F4i, but after another conversation with Phil I was convinced to try a heaver rear spring rate first in order to bring the bikes balance back closer to what Honda originally had.

Phil installed .95 kg forks spring and recommended 19 kg rear spring to maintain balance, so I ordered a 19 kg from Ohlins.

Today was my first ride with the new spring set-up and I haven't even set proper SAG or dialed in the shock yet.

Results, This thing is on Rails ! :goofy: Turns in better, holds a line better, does everything better. It has transformed the bike completely and I can only imagine how it will feel after I set Sag and spend a day on Comp. & Rebound settings.

Amazing !

straight numbers are 30% stiffer on the front springs (.74 to .95) Rear spring in now 25% stiffer (15.5 kg to 19.3 kg)

added from a newer post 10-19-07

Don't forget that with all this Forking around you guys are doing to the front that you need to consider increasing the rear spring rate to better maintain the bikes balance and get better performance from your forks too.

I first did the forks with valving & .95's and I installed an Ohlins on the rear with a stock rate spring, though it was an improvement it wasn't right.

When I finally installed the proper rear spring on the rear (19kg for my 200 lbs) it transformed both ends of the bike!!! fing02.gif

Turns out running a soft/stock rear spring with new stiffer screwed up feel on both ends because the stiff front transfered more weight to the already to soft rear making it feel worse and the stiffer front tended to bounce across many bumps and irregular surfaces instead of absorbing them.

I had a old post about it " transformed" don't know if it's still around, but consider stiffening the rear spring in close to the same percentage as the front and you'll be much happier.

(note if you just commute and don't hit the twisties you may never notice it) cool.gif

update 1/31/2010

After years of learning, reading and sharing set-up info mostly with Pete McCrary we realize that the ONLY way to achieve proper spring rates on out VFR's(or any bike) is by achieving BOTH desired FREE 7 RIDER SAG numbers! Rider sag numbers alone mean ABSOLUTELY nothing by them self in relation to determining correct Spring rates!

I plan to add real world spring rate numbers here from members who have done it the right way achieving desired Free & Rider Sag numbers!

I weigh 190 lbs and have a 19 kg(1065 lb) spring on a Vtec, I get the following numbers measuring by myself:

Free sag- 12mm

Rider sag- 32mm

These are real close for what I want, but I want to check it again check it again w/help to be more accurate.

So IMO if you weight 190 plus you'll need at least a 19kg spring to get close, I'll be trying a 20 kg real soon and post my numbers.

BTW I started w/a 850 lb spring on my Ohlins and had No free sag w/35mm rider sag.

BR

jasonsmith:

220lbs no gear. I wear full textile top to bottom. 07 RWB VFR

Parts

Elka 3-Way with remote pre-load - Rear spring rate - 1100lb or 19.6kg (STOCK 15.3kg) 28% increase.

FRSP S3732095 RT Front Fork Spring 36.7x34.5x315 .95kg from RaceTech (STOCK .74kg) with valving (see below) to compensate for the increased spring rate. 28% increase.

RaceTech

G2-R Gold Valve Kit - G2-R Next Generation Compression Kit

FMGV S2040G

Fork Rebound HFR Gold Valve Kit-Racing (Hi-Frequency Response Race Rebound Gold Valve)

FRGV SR2001

Stock Oil Weight = Honda SS-8 (10wt)

New Oil Weight = Maxima 5wt HP Fork Oil (RaceTech recommended US1 which is 2.5wt - 5wt from what I can tell)

Numbers

(with full gear, 3/4 full tank)...

Front:

Sag - 35 mm (3 lines exposed on the pre-load adjuster)

Free Sag - 15mm, down 7mm.

Rear:

Sag - 35 mm (23 out of 52 available clicks in on the pre-load)

Free Sag - 7mm (With a 1200# rear spring I would guess my free sag could be increased to 15mm or so at 35mm rider sag)

* +

baileyrockBoy was I wrong on my theory related to rear spring rate.

Straight numbers are 30% stiffer on the front springs (.74 to .95)  Rear spring in now 25% stiffer (15.5 kg to 19.3 kg)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When were you wrong?

I read your hypothesis that Honda have the correct RELATIONSHIP of spring stiffness front & rear. If you change one then you should change the other to maintain the original relationship. This seems to be what you have just done (+-5%).

I also remember you advising specific spring rates at some stage but the thing that stuck in my memory was your relationaship post.

kaldekHow much do you weigh, Baileyrock?

195 lbs. :idea3:

Balance is indeed the key and it sure is tough to get it right sometimes, even with everything stock and you're just messing with the sag.

The biggest thing that I have trouble with is the bike really seems to require a compromise sag setting to handle right all the way through a tank of gas. It's mostly just ride quality but the amount of gas this bike carries really seems to effect things as it burns off.

baileyrockBoy was I wrong on my theory related to rear spring rate.

I had Phil at Aftershocks re-valve and re-spring my Vtec forks last summer and while I felt an improvement with the forks I wasn't happy with the bikes handling.

I installed a CBR Ohlins on the rear at the same time as the redone forks, but I did not increase the spring rate for fear of a horrendous ride and I thought that if I could get the proper SAG with the stock rate spring than everything was cool. As mentioned I  wasn't really impressed with the set-up and was considering another complete front end swap to a F4i, but after another conversation with Phil I was convinced to try a heaver rear spring rate first in order to bring the bikes balance back closer to what Honda originally had.

Phil installed .95 kg forks spring and recommended 19 kg rear spring to maintain balance, so I ordered a 19 kg from Ohlins.

Today was my first ride with the new spring set-up and I haven't even set proper SAG or dialed in the shock yet.

Results, This thing is on Rails ! :idea3:  Turns in better, holds a line better, does everything better. It has transformed the bike completely and I can only imagine how it will feel after I set Sag and spend a day on Comp. & Rebound settings.

Amazing !

straight numbers are 30% stiffer on the front springs (.74 to .95)  Rear spring in now 25% stiffer (15.5 kg to 19.3 kg)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know what your saying. Phil did an amazing job matching my front and rear. I am still running what he set for me at his shop as far as Rebound and Compression. The knowledge Phil has and the work he does is amazing.

teleskierI know what your saying. Phil did an amazing job matching my front and rear. I am still running what he set for me at his shop as far as Rebound and Compression. The knowledge Phil has and the work he does is amazing.

Yah, he's great ! He tried to lead me, but I was not listening at first. He said you could try it (stock spring) which I did and wasn't happy and when I called complaining about the feel of the forks he said it's your soft rear spring. :idea3:

benSV, on Apr 3 2006, 11:26 AM, said:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

mq105I was looking on the race tech site and the spring rate calculator recommends .95 front springs and a 16kg rear for 160 lbs. For 195lbs it says 17kg rear. I wonder why Phil recommended .95 fronts and 19kg rear for 195lbs? (Same front, much higher rear rate.) That makes me question the balance thing. What am I missing here? Is it because you have a different shock, and the spring rate calculator table listed only applies to the stock VFR shock? Hmmm...

I've never been a big fan of RaceTech or their spring rate suggestions! <_<

I'm sure there's more to it and with the huge ports in their valves they may require more spring to control the motion. After talking to several Sus. Pros and looking at what other's like Ohlins use, I don't agree with Race Tech phys. myself.

If you went just by the numbers on spring rates you would have closer balance with Phils numbers

Stock springs are .74 F & 15.3kg R.

a .95 spring is a 30% increase in stiffness over stock

a 19kg spring is a 25% increase in stiffness over stock, so just by the numbers Phils set-up is within 5% the Race tech suggestion you mention would increase the front the same 30% and the rear only 11% which is 19% difference front to rear.

I push the limits of my VFR often and I'm very happy with the results. Now for people who never push the limits of the bike will never really feel that change in balance as much as people who do IMO! :thumbsup:

baileyrockBoy was I wrong on my theory related to rear spring rate.

I had Phil at Aftershocks re-valve and re-spring my Vtec forks last summer and while I felt an improvement with the forks I wasn't happy with the bikes handling.

I installed a CBR Ohlins on the rear at the same time as the redone forks, but I did not increase the spring rate for fear of a horrendous ride and I thought that if I could get the proper SAG with the stock rate spring than everything was cool. As mentioned I wasn't really impressed with the set-up and was considering another complete front end swap to a F4i, but after another conversation with Phil I was convinced to try a heaver rear spring rate first in order to bring the bikes balance back closer to what Honda originally had.

Phil installed .95 kg forks spring and recommended 19 kg rear spring to maintain balance, so I ordered a 19 kg from Ohlins.

Today was my first ride with the new spring set-up and I haven't even set proper SAG or dialed in the shock yet.

Results, This thing is on Rails ! :blink: Turns in better, holds a line better, does everything better. It has transformed the bike completely and I can only imagine how it will feel after I set Sag and spend a day on Comp. & Rebound settings.

Amazing !

straight numbers are 30% stiffer on the front springs (.74 to .95) Rear spring in now 25% stiffer (15.5 kg to 19.3 kg)

re-posting for some of the guys doing forks now and added this:

Don't forget that with all this Forking around you guys are doing to the front that you need to consider increasing the rear spring rate to better maintain the bikes balance and get better performance from your forks too.

I first did the forks with valving & .95's and I installed an Ohlins on the rear with a stock rate spring, though it was an improvement it wasn't right.

When I finally installed the proper rear spring on the rear (19kg for my 200 lbs) it transformed both ends of the bike!!! fing02.gif

Turns out running a soft/stock rear spring with new stiffer screwed up feel on both ends because the stiff front transfered more weight to the already to soft rear making it feel worse and the stiffer front tended to bounce across many bumps and irregular surfaces instead of absorbing them.

I had a old post about it " transformed" don't know if it's still around, but consider stiffening the rear spring in close to the same percentage as the front and you'll be much happier.

(note if you just commute and don't hit the twisties you may never notice it) cool.gif

Bailey:

I'm curious - what's your weight? I'm running a Racetech front end and a Penske double adjustable rear that Traxxion set up for me. I use to weigh about 290 and have lost down to 250. The rear end is beginning to bounce around some and I'm wondering if it's time for a softer rear springs.

BTW, Phil Douglas set up a Penske triple adjustable shock and reworked the forks on my Duke II. I highly recommend him and his work. Traxxion Dynamics is only a few miles from me but I still have started sending my stuff out to Phil Douglas for work.

Hispanic Slammer has written some excellent "how to's" on setting up a Race Tech front end. I followed his write up to a T and it did wonders for the front end. I also raised the rear of the bike about an inch. That is one thing I love about the Penske is that you can adjust the length.

Pete McCraryI guess I'll be a little more direct in my question. What change in your weight do you feel makes it time for a spring rate change? Like I said before, I've dropped 40 lbs over a period of about a year. Can't believe the difference it made in my riding. Having had the Penske built for my previous "bulkier" size, is it time to consider going to a lighter shock spring? What are the increments between shock springs? 50#? 100#? I did crank in two more clicks on the rebound and took one click off the compression on the last ride and that helped a bit.

Pete,

40# is a big change IMO, that's like an 18% change. Congrats! Do you know springs are on the bike now?

I would still think you would be in the .95-1.0 kg fronts & 20-21 kg rear springs at 250. The Penske valving should have no problem covering a spring change within it's adjustments.

Bailey:

Dug my paperwork out and all Traxxion listed for the shock spring was 1400 #. I'm assuming that's 1400#/in. Doing the math:

1400 #/in x 1 in/25.39 mm x 1 kg/2.2 # = 25.06 kg/mm. Wow - that's a stiff spring. As an interesting comparison (and I know shock linkage geometry plays a lot into what the proper shock spring to use is), Traxxion built me a shock for my ST1300 (which I have yet to install) and they only used a 1000 # spring. This might explain why I have to be practically horizontal to get the pegs to touch even though I'm using up every bit of the rear tire.

I think I definitely get in touch with Phil Douglas. BTW, does Phil have a website? I couldn't find anything under "Aftershocks" except a site "Under Construction". Definitely going to be giving Phil a call myself. Hard to put my finger on it, but I am just less than comfortable with Traxxion some days. That are some really friendly guys to deal with in person, but I have seldom ordered anything from them that didn't require that it be sent back atleast once to get it right. While going through the paperwork receipts, they had originally made up the shock for a VFR750 which is a much longer shock and I had to send it back for shortening.

Pete

Pete McCraryBailey:

Dug my paperwork out and all Traxxion listed for the shock spring was 1400 #. I'm assuming that's 1400#/in. Doing the math:

1400 #/in x 1 in/25.39 mm x 1 kg/2.2 # = 25.06 kg/mm. Wow - that's a stiff spring. As an interesting comparison (and I know shock linkage geometry plays a lot into what the proper shock spring to use is), Traxxion built me a shock for my ST1300 (which I have yet to install) and they only used a 1000 # spring. This might explain why I have to be practically horizontal to get the pegs to touch even though I'm using up every bit of the rear tire.

I think I definitely get in touch with Phil Douglas. BTW, does Phil have a website? I couldn't find anything under "Aftershocks" except a site "Under Construction". Definitely going to be giving Phil a call myself. Hard to put my finger on it, but I am just less than comfortable with Traxxion some days. That are some really friendly guys to deal with in person, but I have seldom ordered anything from them that didn't require that it be sent back atleast once to get it right. While going through the paperwork receipts, they had originally made up the shock for a VFR750 which is a much longer shock and I had to send it back for shortening.

Pete

Sounds about right (25kg/1400 lb), Phil suggested a 19-20kg for me at 200lbs(running a 19kg/1100 lb), sounds like a 21-22 kg would be a better fit for your current weight, but ask Phil what he thinks. Yes you are correct on the VFR rocker geometry and weight of the bike combine to require HEAVY rate springs! :beer:

:thumbsup:

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on Oct 21 2007, 06:43 PM, said:

Dusted off an old thread.

I have been reading a few topics on spring rates and I could use some advise. I just ordered an Elka 3-way from a recent group buy. They are building it for me now. Obviously, my untouched 10 year old front end needs to be redone. I weigh about 155 lbs.

I have been reading the charts on Racetech's webpage.

I think I want the .85 springs. .85/.74 = 14.9% increase over stock.

If I do nothing, I am afraid Elka is going to give me a 850lb (stock) or 900 lb shock. I think I should call Elka and specify a 950 lb shock, because 950/850 = 11.8% increase over stock. Which is closer to a balanced bike.

What do you guys think?

The Racetech page says the exact opposite. They recommend 0.89 in the front and a 14.58 kg in the rear (15.3kg is stock) this is a big increase in the front and a decrease in the back...

Am I missing something here?

MuddDawgI am not an expert, but from what I understand. RaceTech's website tends to recommend a stiffer rate than you really need. I messed with the website and if you put in numbers for a 5th gen. I could only weight 50#s if I was using the stock spring. The RaceTech Springs are designed to be used with RaceTech Valveing as well.

Agreed, I never use Race Tech suggestions as there are almost always on the stiff side! There good to find stock rates and ballpark rate changes.

At 155 lbs you are close to the weight the VFR was set up for, I forget if it's 140 lb or 160 lb. :pissed:

I would find a few other sources on suggested spring rates for you on your bike like any other reputable suspension shop. What is Elka reccomending and do they suggest a front rate too?

You can freshen your fork oil and add another 10cc's(or more) to help slow brake dive and stiffen the front in later stages of travel w/o a spring change. Front & Rear balance is important and I would go with Elka's suggested rear spring rate and adjust the front if needed in relationship to the rear. Don't forget you can use a .80 kg in one leg and a .85 in the other to achieve a .825 kg rate if that's needed.

At your weight stock spring rates maybe good? :blink:

DDO-VFRExcuse me in advance if these are retard questions... :blink: ...but what does the rear spring 'pre-load' (if that is the right term) do in all of this suspension behaviour? I'm 165lbs. and can't really complain about the stock setup. Of course I have to crank the pre-load up/down as I load/unload the bike, doesn't this 'adjust' the spring rates somewhat?

DDO-VFR

Preload is used to achieve proper SAG #'s if the spring rate is close enough. You can find Sag how to in the FAQ section of the tool bar.

Street riding SAG are in the area of 35-45mm front and 25-35mm rear depending on riding type and style and is one of the most important setting (after proper spring rates) you can do in general.

[image: View Post]Baileyrock, on Dec 14 2008, 12:16 PM, said:

Baileyrock

DDO-VFRExcuse me in advance if these are retard questions... :blink: ...but what does the rear spring 'pre-load' (if that is the right term) do in all of this suspension behaviour? I'm 165lbs. and can't really complain about the stock setup. Of course I have to crank the pre-load up/down as I load/unload the bike, doesn't this 'adjust' the spring rates somewhat?

DDO-VFR

Preload is used to achieve proper SAG #'s if the spring rate is close enough. You can find Sag how to in the FAQ section of the tool bar.

Street riding SAG are in the area of 35-45mm front and 25-35mm rear depending on riding type and style and is one of the most important setting (after proper spring rates) you can do in general.

kevin is spot on w/ preload. the point is to have your suspension in the mid part of your travel so you don't bottom or top out. preload does NOT impact spring rate. this is a function of the spring itself and is rated in lbs/in or kg/mm. this simply tells you for 'x' amount of load, the spring compresses 'y' amount of distance....a 15kg/mm spring compresses 1mm per 15kg of load on it. when you combine this with the rear suspension geometry and the design of the shocks compression and rebound circuits, you get a properly tuned suspension that carries the load properly (which means it keeps the contact patch as big and stable as possible) for the road conditions for which it is setup. hope that makes sense.

[image: View Post]Peto, on Dec 14 2008, 12:12 PM, said:

I spoke to Elka and also have an outstanding call to Rich Desmond at Sonic Springs.

Elka is putting on an 850# shock. I protested, due to the geometry change when I redo the front end. I told him the lightest springs I can get are Racetech .80 (Sonic doesn't even sell below .85). I explained this is an 8% increase and the rear @850# will be 0%, whereas a 900# rear will be about 6% increase and keep the geometry relatively the same. They told me they would discuss it with their R&D engineers and get back to me. They just called me back. Here is the deal.

They said the 850# is for sure what I want. The 900# is way too stiff for me and my ride will suffer - the static and dynamic sag won't be right. They said that the first inch of suspension travel is very important as it prevents losing traction when I'm flogging in the twisties. They said if I go with the .80s and the 900#, the bike will likely washout the front or rear as opposed to loading up the suspenion/tires.

I said what about the front? Then they asked me an interesting question. Why am I changing the front springs? The .74 is appropriate for me on this bike. I told them my stuff is 10 years old and needs to be replaced. Their response was I could get new factory springs, and bushings, and seals, and fresh oil. Then, if I wanted, I could get emulators.....

I really hope this isn't a expensive mistake. I don't know enough about suspension.... What do you guys think?

[image: View Post]Peto, on Dec 15 2008, 04:24 PM, said:

Now, I am REALLY confused.

I just spoke with Rich Desmond (awesome guy btw). He seems very smart and really experienced. Right off the top of his head he knew everything.

Me, 155lbs. on the VFR. He actually laughed when I said .80s. He said no way. On the Heavy VFR @ 155 lbs I want .90s. No question. He said he had .85 on one of his 450 pound bikes and that he is 160lbs. that bike doesnt have as much weight on the front end as the VFR either. He said the bike is perfect with that. I should not get anything but .90s to upgrade the undersprung front end.

I said what about the back end? I said Elka is putting on an 850# spring. I said, but what about the geometry change with the .90s? Its 21% front and 0% rear. He said you are on the right track , BUT the geometry will be much closer to balanced with this setup. :huh: :blush:

Rich said you must understand the manufaturer goes light in the front and stiff in the back. They have to beacuse they cannot let the bike sit real low with luggage and a passenger. The passenger sits directly over the shock and compresses a lot. That is how they design the bike at the factory - its a big compromise. He said if its just me @155lbs. on the bike, the rear spring stock rate sounds about right, and that Elka definitely knows what they are doing.

:mellow:

PetoI spoke to Elka and also have an outstanding call to Rich Desmond at Sonic Springs.

Elka is putting on an 850# shock. That's putting on a 850# SPRING on the shock! :blush:

I protested, due to the geometry change when I redo the front end.

They said the 850# is for sure what I want. The 900# is way too stiff for me :mellow: A 50 lb change on the rear is almost nothing! Now if their saying that a 850 lb spring is already on the stiff side for your weight this might make sense!

and my ride will suffer - the static and dynamic sag won't be right. I disagree here with a 50lb change!

(note, I don't know shitz)

They said that the first inch of suspension travel is very important as it prevents losing traction when I'm flogging in the twisties. TRUE!

They said if I go with the .80s and the 900#, the bike will likely washout the front or rear as opposed to loading up the suspenion/tires. Crazy, unless like I said stock rates are already too stiff for your weight!

I said what about the front? Then they asked me an interesting question. Why am I changing the front springs? The .74 is appropriate for me on this bike. I told them my stuff is 10 years old and needs to be replaced. Their response was I could get new factory springs, and bushings, and seals, and fresh oil. Then, if I wanted, I could get emulators..... Also true!

PetoI just spoke with Rich Desmond (awesome guy btw). He seems very smart and really experienced. Right off the top of his head he knew everything. That is the problem with suspension guru's, they all know everything and go about it in completely different ways then the next guru! :huh:

Me, 155lbs. on the VFR. He actually laughed when I said .80s. He said no way. On the Heavy VFR @ 155 lbs I want .90s. No question. He said he had .85 on one of his 450 pound bikes and that he is 160lbs. that bike doesnt have as much weight on the front end as the VFR either. He said the bike is perfect with that. I should not get anything but .90s to upgrade the undersprung front end. This is a very generic statement IMO as several lighter bikes run heavier rates stock than the VFR which would make this statement illogical IMO. There is no one size fits every bikes suspension/geometry/weight IMO.

I said what about the back end? I said Elka is putting on an 850# shock. I said, but what about the geometry change with the .90s? Its 21% front and 0% rear. He said you are on the right track , BUT the geometry will be much closer to balanced with this setup. :blush:

My bike felt like shitz with this setup: stock rear/.95 fronts(28% stiffer), just as this thread states it didn't feel right or better until I increased the rear rate 24% also!

Rich said you must understand the manufaturer goes light in the front and stiff in the back. They have to beacuse they cannot let the bike sit real low with luggage and a passenger. The passenger sits directly over the shock and compresses a lot. That is how they design the bike at the factory - its a big compromise. He said if its just me @155lbs. on the bike, the rear shock stock rate sounds about right, and that Elka definitely knows what they are doing.

:mellow:

[image: View Post]Peto, on Dec 15 2008, 09:24 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Peto, on Dec 15 2008, 07:24 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Baileyrock, on Dec 15 2008, 10:17 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Peto, on Dec 15 2008, 07:24 PM, said:

Get Andrew Trevitt's book "Sportbike Suspension Tuning".

He has a complete section telling how to figure out if you have too soft or too stiff springs. Makes all the difference in the world.

$19.95 at Amazon.com. Learn - teach your self.

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on Dec 15 2008, 11:49 PM, said:

PetoThat's a good idea Pete. No GF, Seb. Girls are big trouble. I am strictly a solo act.

I have way too much on my plate right now (life) to be second guessing the folks designing my rear shock. Especially since I am not a suspension professional.

I am going to let Elka build the rear shock the way they think. I am going to educate myself when I have time. Then I am going to decide what to do up front. If, after all that is done, I think I need to change things, so be it.

I appreciate all the responses. Thanks.

Peto:

Understand exactly where you're coming from - that's why I went the route of Trevitt's book. If I contacted 5 different suspension "specialists" (Lindemann, Phil Douglas, Traxxion, etc) I got 5 different answers. I was be more confused than ever.

Trevitt's book has a simple step by step method for determining correct shock spring rate. I followed his guidelines religiously and the VFR has never handled better.

Getting on my soap box for the umpteenth time, I think most of the suspension advice is too centered around damping rates, blah, blah, blah. If you don't have the correct spring to begin with, no amount of damping tuning is going to get you what you want. Most of the advice assumes you've got the correct spring rate on your bike and go from there. I think you need to go back to the very basics and make sure you've got the correct spring rate and then start worrying/adjusting the damping. Remember, the purpose of the shock is control the spring's behavior. If you have the wrong spring to begin with, you'll never get to the right place handling wise.

I run Penske's on every single motorcycle I own. Shock springs are cheap if you know where to buy them. Don't buy them from Lindemann, Traxxion, etc - they usually want $99.95-109.95 for a spring. Go to Hoerr Racing Products (pronounced "Hare" by the way). They are a race car suspension shop that has an incredible selection of Hyperco springs. All you need to know is the spring dimension and the rate you want. A Penske shock takes a 6" long by 2.25" I.D. spring. They sell them for $66.95 all day long and have just about all of them in stock. A spring is a spring is a spring. Doesn't matter if it's on a World of Outlaws car, an Indy car, a NASCAR stocker, or a motorcycle. They are also great people to deal with.

Check them out at hrpworld.com.

Great stuff as usual Pete! :beer:

Pete turned me onto this book and I love it, thanks again!!!

Also thanks for the link for springs, but it looks like they've had a price hike to $74.95 up to 950 lbs then it's $89.95 for 1000 lbs and above. Still the cheapest I've seen! :goofy:

BaileyrockGreat stuff as usual Pete! :beer:

Pete turned me onto this book and I love it, thanks again!!!

Also thanks for the link for springs, but it looks like they've had a price hike to $74.95 up to 950 lbs then it's $89.95 for 1000 lbs and above. Still the cheapest I've seen! :goofy:

Kevin:

Wow! They did go up. Still cheaper than Traxxion, Lindemann, etc.

http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?tpc=Hype...;action=product

Thank goodness I already have a shelf full of springs.

Pete

SPRING MATH

1 kg = 2.2 lbs, 1" = 25.39 mm

1#/in x 1 kg/2.2 # x 1 in/25.39 mm = 55.858

Therefore, if you have a spring rated in #/in and want to know what it is equal to in kg/mm, simply divide the #/in amount by 55.858.

Example: 1000#/in spring = 17.90 kg/mm spring.

Conversely, if you have a spring rated in kg/mm, multiply the kg/mm rate by 55.858 to obtain the #/in rate.

[image: View Post]baileyrock, on Apr 3 2006, 01:16 PM, said:

[image: View Post]jasonsmith, on Sep 22 2009, 12:10 PM, said:

[image: View Post]turtlecreek, on Sep 23 2009, 10:15 AM, said:

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on Sep 23 2009, 10:21 AM, said:

[image: View Post]VFR4Lee, on Sep 23 2009, 08:23 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on Sep 23 2009, 04:26 AM, said:

[image: View Post]Baileyrock, on Sep 22 2009, 04:26 PM, said:

[image: View Post]jasonsmith, on Sep 22 2009, 12:10 PM, said:

[image: View Post]turtlecreek, on Sep 23 2009, 05:56 AM, said:

[image: View Post]billyjackjimbob, on Sep 22 2009, 11:06 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Baileyrock, on Sep 23 2009, 09:20 AM, said:

[image: View Post]turtlecreek, on Sep 23 2009, 05:56 AM, said:

[image: View Post]billyjackjimbob, on Sep 23 2009, 02:35 AM, said:

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on Sep 23 2009, 04:26 AM, said:

[image: View Post]jasonsmith, on 16 January 2010 - 08:29 PM, said:

[image: View Post]vfrcapn, on 23 September 2009 - 10:35 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on 18 January 2010 - 03:25 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on 18 January 2010 - 03:25 PM, said:

[image: View Post]enzed_viffer, on 18 January 2010 - 04:11 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on 18 January 2010 - 03:25 PM, said:

[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 18 January 2010 - 04:08 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on 18 January 2010 - 03:25 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on 18 January 2010 - 03:25 PM, said:

[image: View Post]jasonsmith, on 23 January 2010 - 06:30 PM, said:

[image: View Post]vfrcapn, on 23 January 2010 - 10:18 PM, said:

[image: View Post]jasonsmith, on 23 January 2010 - 06:30 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on 23 January 2010 - 10:46 PM, said:

[image: View Post]jasonsmith, on 23 January 2010 - 10:32 PM, said:

[image: View Post]vfrcapn, on 23 January 2010 - 10:18 PM, said:

[image: View Post]jasonsmith, on 23 January 2010 - 06:30 PM, said:

[image: View Post]enzed_viffer, on 18 January 2010 - 02:30 PM, said:

[image: View Post]vfrcapn, on 23 September 2009 - 10:35 PM, said:

[image: View Post]vfrcapn, on 24 January 2010 - 02:43 AM, said:

[image: View Post]MuddDawg, on 24 January 2010 - 01:02 PM, said:

[image: View Post]jasonsmith, on 24 January 2010 - 02:15 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on 24 January 2010 - 02:20 PM, said:

[image: View Post]MuddDawg, on 24 January 2010 - 01:02 PM, said:

[image: View Post]BaileyRock, on 24 January 2010 - 03:48 PM, said:

[image: View Post]enzed_viffer, on 24 January 2010 - 03:54 PM, said:

[image: View Post]BaileyRock, on 24 January 2010 - 03:48 PM, said:

enzed_viffer

He's coming up here in a few weeks, and is going to check the bike out then. He's offered to replace the spring (if he can get one to fit) and change the valving on the Elka, if it looks like being necessary.

You can't ask for anything more! I look forward to seeing what he does & says. I would also like to know the number on your spring.

PS don't forget, when check sag you should basically have rebound/comp settings on zero(full soft) so that your only measuring Spring and not any effect of damping. :angry:

BTW I don't think there is, but is there any ratio difference between the 5th & 6th gen?

You don't have your bike lowered or have flipped the triangle plates have you?

There is another member TC who says he has great numbers with an F4i shock & 900lb spring.

BR

The last time I checked the numbers on my street 02 Vtec w/Ohlins shock and a 19kg(1065lb) spring I got:

Free Sag: 12mm

Rider Sag: 32mm

This is pretty damn close, but I'm trying the 1200lb spring this time on this Penske that was suppose go on the Track Vtec.

[image: post-301-12643835053_thumb.jpg]

BR

Pete McCrary

enzed_viffer

Now let me get this straight - you're saying if the springs are too soft, then in order to get the rider sag (suspension positition of rider sitting on bike minus position of bike with suspension fully extended?) correct, there's so much preload wound on that the spring is effectively topped out?

The shock is topped out in this situation (no rider on bike).

Yeah, that's what I said meant. :unsure:

Bailey Rock: as for the damping being at zero, no - I didn't do that. I can't do it with the front anyway, so I don't think it's gonna be super critical. I just bounced the bike a few times and checked the measurements several times to make sure it was consistent.

BTW - it's unbelievable how compliant the front end is. With the Ohlins oil, and the work that was done to make sure the internals were set up right (concentricity, checking components, etc.) there's almost zero stiction. I guess to give the Elka a fair go, I should really drop the rear swingarm and remove linkages etc and check everything's properly lubed and lined up. (I did remove the dogbone, check the bushes, lubed everything, but I wasn't a perfectionist like the Ohlins guy was.

enzed_viffer

Yeah, that's what I said meant. :huh:

Bailey Rock: as for the damping being at zero, no - I didn't do that. I can't do it with the front anyway, so I don't think it's gonna be super critical. I just bounced the bike a few times and checked the measurements several times to make sure it was consistent.

BTW - it's unbelievable how compliant the front end is. With the Ohlins oil, and the work that was done to make sure the internals were set up right (concentricity, checking components, etc.) there's almost zero stiction. I guess to give the Elka a fair go, I should really drop the rear swingarm and remove linkages etc and check everything's properly lubed and lined up. (I did remove the dogbone, check the bushes, lubed everything, but I wasn't a perfectionist like the Ohlins guy was.

Yeah, can't do anything about a non-adjustable front fork, but on the rear w/aftermarket fully adjust shock it's better to Not have any Damping interfering with your sag check. :unsure:

Avg. 3 measurements per end is a great way to go.

BTW have you just bounced on the back of your bike to check movement, then backed off comp fully and do it again?

That tells you what the spring alone feels like. It took me a while to realize I had my comp set too stiff for the longest time, when I finally backed it off a decent amount and let the spring work it felt much better.

Remember the Springs hold the bike off the ground, the Damping controls spring osolation(bouncing) and weight transitions.

BR

BaileyRock

enzed_viffer

He's coming up here in a few weeks, and is going to check the bike out then. He's offered to replace the spring (if he can get one to fit) and change the valving on the Elka, if it looks like being necessary.

You can't ask for anything more! I look forward to seeing what he does & says. I would also like to know the number on your spring.

PS don't forget, when check sag you should basically have rebound/comp settings on zero(full soft) so that your only measuring Spring and not any effect of damping. :unsure:

BTW I don't think there is, but is there any ratio difference between the 5th & 6th gen?

You don't have your bike lowered or have flipped the triangle plates have you?

There is another member TC who says he has great numbers with an F4i shock & 900lb spring.

BR

FYI...not so sure about the 900 lber....after riding the ohlin on the track bike, and getting my front revalved on the VFR, i am starting to see the difference...i have no free sag and the ride is harsh, so i believe it isn't set up just right. yes, much better then stock for sure, but i am almost convince of the need for the 1200 lb spring as i weigh in at 230.

i hope to find the time to try it before spring gets here

You know one thing that we don't seem to be talking about is the bike height in relation to each end. I noticed when I installed my shock it was a bit taller at first than stock and it loaded the front end quite a bit more than being in the what I think is stock position now. My free sag numbers changed considerably after the minor adjustment. When were chasing millimeters in the quest of supreme balance should we also be assuring that front to back things are copacetic? I know the manual states the height of the forks but what about the rear?

Once you get the correct rear spring on a bike, I think you will be surprised at how little compression damping you will need. I run a double action Penske on my 6th Gen and I run my compression knob at the first position. I weigh 255# and run a 1300# spring.

As far as the question about a spring compressor goes, remember that a Penske simply unscrews in a sense. You back off all of the preload on the spring, then you lift the bottom spring perch about a quarter of an inch and there is a groove with a wire clip in it. (Yeah, exactly what I thought the first time I saw it). Take the wire ring off, and the bottom spring perch slides right off. Depending on which end eyelet you have, sometimes the spring perch has a large enough hole in it to slide right over the bottom bolt up eyelet. Otherwise, you'll have to remove the eyelet to get the spring perch off.

One last thought from this hillbilly and I'll shut up for an hour or two: If you have a Penske, make sure you are running a Torrington radial bearing on top of the spring between the spring and the adjusting collar. It makes turning the preload adjustment collar so much easier. I don't know enough about Ohlins and Elka's to know if a Torrington radial bearing would work on them. I assume you could find one.

Believe it or not, the place to find the radial bearings quick and cheap is Amazon.com.

enzed_viffer

BaileyRock

BTW have you just bounced on the back of your bike to check movement, then backed off comp fully and do it again?

Nope, but I was riding with no compression damping for a while. When I dialled in the rebound adjustment on the shock, I bcked off the compression damping to nothing, then rode on one of the nearby goat tracks at the same speed, same route each time, making one or two click adjustments on the rebound until it seemed to get worse, then went back to a previous setting.

That is the best way to do it and learn it IMO! :ph34r:

Currently the compression damping is at less than one-third from full soft. I did have it even softer, but found that when I was finishing turns the back tyre was spinning up on the exit, because it was compressing too readily as the torque loaded the rear spring, then extending again too fast.

"then extending again too fast" that is from Not enough Rebound!

Doofus here again, coming back for more foot-in-mouth. :goofy:

Whelp, here's what.

Front: when the forks went back for the springs to be changed and damping recalibrated, the technicians rushed thejob, and didn't cut new spacers for the shorter Ohlins springs. So... to get the preload in the ballpark, I had to wind them in a long way. I didn't want to end up with no adjustment left, so I ended up with not enough preload in the front. This morning I wound in another turn: much betterer. :cool: When I have some spare time, I'll cut some new spacers.

Rear: I haven't checked it carefully (too many vehicles in the garage, not enough space, not enough time), but my quick check of the preload made me realise the free sag was a bit on the low side (Racetech CKT recommended 10-20mm, and it was barely 12). So, I wound that off by about a turn. It now feels more compliant to my untrained butt. I'll check that properly (winding the damping off to zero, BR!), and when that's set, at least I'll have a proper base setting to work from with setting up rebound and compression.

Tossing this in from another thread.

View PostWistrick, on 30 January 2010 - 10:18 AM, said:

The rate of the spring is critical. If desired Rider Sag is 35mm and desired rider contribution to the sag is 15mm, then accordingly Free Sag should be 20mm. Any spring will give you 35mm of Rider Sag, given some preload position, but only one spring (rate) will also give 20mm Free Sag with the same preload position. In other words, given specific goal numbers, only one correct spring rate exists.

Dan

:fing02: So true Dan, this is the point Pete & I keep trying to get across to everyone! Most people think if you can get desired Rider Sag then the Spring is correct, but just as you've mentioned rider sag is meaningless for calculating correct spring rates w/o also having the desired Free sag numbers!

The other fact is that just because some Tuner or even Ohlins or Penske says you need "....lb spring" does Not mean it's the correct one unless you get Both the desired numbers for Free & Rider Sag! Elka sent many of our members new shocks with the wrong spring rates on them and now if anyone ever bothered to check the numbers they have found them to be wrong and are needing new springs! Of course a New Aftermarket shock will feel better than a stock VFR shock, even with the wrong spring, but you are paying for the correct spring rate and Most are Not getting it!

I've seen different Pro's suggest for our members VFR's rear spring rates from 800lb to 1400lb springs for the same 190lb rider! :blink: That's insane! There is only one correct rate for that rider on his VFR and every other spring rate recommendation is WRONG whether it's Ben Speis, Ohlins, Penske, Me or the best tuner in your country telling you so.

The ONLY way to know if the spring rate is correct is on the bike and checking both Free & Rider Sag, there is no other way!

I've said this in other threads, I think the problem is that most Pro's have a faulty spring rate calculator for the VFR model only and constantly come up with these bogus numbers. Almost always Too soft. :dry:

I see we have some folks all reading the same book..... tongue.gif

jasonsmith

Also as per these numbers that Dan posted my current 1100# spring is bang on. 35mm with 7mm free.

Jason,

From what I'm understanding so far is that yes 7mm free sag might be acceptable, but for street use and running 35mm of rider sag, I think we/you should also be running more Free sag(towards the higher end of scale).

I think Ohlins calls for 10-20 free sag for street use, I run 5-10mm free on the Race bike w/25mm rider sag.

The reality is that your bike should feel great as is, but may work even better with more free sag like 10-15mm. This will take a stiffer spring, why not just slap the 1200lb on there and check your numbers. :fing02:

BR

BaileyRock

jasonsmith

Also as per these numbers that Dan posted my current 1100# spring is bang on. 35mm with 7mm free.

Jason,

From what I'm understanding so far is that yes 7mm free sag might be acceptable, but for street use and running 35mm of rider sag, I think we/you should also be running more Free sag(towards the higher end of scale).

I think Ohlins calls for 10-20 free sag for street use, I run 5-10mm free on the Race bike w/25mm rider sag.

The reality is that your bike should feel great as is, but may work even better with more free sag like 10-15mm. This will take a stiffer spring, why not just slap the 1200lb on there and check your numbers. :fing02:

BR

I'll for sure throw in the 1200# Kevin but I thought since were in a suspension playing mood that I would ride the 1100# and get a "feel" so when I switch to the 1200# I can actually say that it made a difference, and "this is what it did for me". If you think the 7mm is unsafe for the street then I can change to the 1200# asap or go to about 37mm. The 1100# felt good and not too firm so I need to be able to confirm with myself that when I put in the 1200# it isn't going to make it more firm than what I would like.

jasonsmith

I'll for sure throw in the 1200# Kevin but I thought since were in a suspension playing mood that I would ride the 1100# and get a "feel" so when I switch to the 1200# I can actually say that it made a difference, and "this is what it did for me". If you think the 7mm is unsafe for the street then I can change to the 1200# asap or go to about 37mm. The 1100# felt good and not too firm so I need to be able to confirm with myself that when I put in the 1200# it isn't going to make it more firm than what I would like.

Jason,

I don't think it's unsafe at all, hell there's hundreds of Viffer owners running Zero Free sag because they've cranked it all out with pre-load trying to get decent rider sag numbers with too soft or stock springs. :fing02:

I do think running zero free sag could be an issue in the right situation causing loss of traction or other negative problem.

Like I said your set-up is probably better than 90% of VFR owners out there you are right in there, I just think it could be slightly better with the 1200 lb spring and you don't even have to buy one. I'm really only suggesting the change because you already have the spring tongue.gif

BR

Auspañol

Maybe I'm not thinking straight... but if he were after MORE free sag for street use, wouldn't that mean a SOFTER spring? if he uses a stiffer one it'll hold the bike up higher and sag less... or am I really going mad with so many exams?? :fing02:

Yeah, it's counter intuitive really, I think it's best explained in Trevitt's book, "Sportbike Suspension ..."

If your spring is too soft you end up having to crank in a whole bunch of preload to achieve desired Rider Sag, this results in a Topped Out shock w/no Free sag. A firmer spring requires less pre-load to achieve desired Rider Sag leaving free movement. Something like that! :fing02:

PLCGuy

Pete McCrary

Let's look at it in a reverse context to understand the counter intuitiveness of it:

Suppose you had a spring (too soft on your bike) and the first thing you did was set the preload for "bike only" sag of say 8-10 mm. Imagine how much rider sag you would have with that set-up once you sat on the bike.

I'm 170lbs and race tech recommended a .976 kg/mm from spring and 14.95 (basically stock) rear spring. seems fishy compared to Baily's springs. where is the best place to buy springs?

Hoerr Racing Products (it's pronounced Hare - not whore).

http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?tpc=Hyperco_Springs_and_Hydraulic_Spring_Perchs&form_cat_id=504,41,363&action=category

Me - 220lbs no gear. I wear full textile top to bottom. 07 RWB VFR

Parts

Elka 3-Way with remote pre-load - Rear spring rate - 1100lb or 19.6kg (STOCK 15.3kg) 28% increase.

FRSP S3732095 RT Front Fork Spring 36.7x34.5x315 .95kg from RaceTech (STOCK .74kg) with valving (see below) to compensate for the increased spring rate. 28% increase.

RaceTech

G2-R Gold Valve Kit - G2-R Next Generation Compression Kit

FMGV S2040G

Fork Rebound HFR Gold Valve Kit-Racing (Hi-Frequency Response Race Rebound Gold Valve)

FRGV SR2001

Stock Oil Weight = Honda SS-8 (10wt)

New Oil Weight = Maxima 5wt HP Fork Oil (RaceTech recommended US1 which is 2.5wt - 5wt from what I can tell)

Numbers

(with full gear, 3/4 full tank)...

Front:

Sag - 35 mm (3 lines exposed on the pre-load adjuster)

Free Sag - 15mm, down 7mm.

Rear:

Sag - 35 mm (23 out of 52 available clicks in on the pre-load)

Free Sag - 7mm (With a 1200# rear spring I would guess my free sag could be increased to 15mm or so at 35mm rider sag)

vfrcapn

jasonsmith

I will officially throw out a guess of 3-5/52 clicks, with 15mm free sag at 35mm rider sag. But were going to have to wait for a month or so.

Well my question then is, what happens if you lose 5 lbs, or ride without all the gear all the time? It seems that doesn't leave you much adjustment. I know I'm going to lose those last 10 lbs. real soon. :blink:

Maybe Baily/Pete can chime in on this. I would think you wouldn't want to go below 1/4-1/3 of the preload range, just to retain some flexibility?

If you get the proper spring rate right the first time, I don't think 10-20 rider lbs will Blow you out of the proper range vs running a spring several hundred pounds off or to soft on us heavier guys. :ph34r:

You'll easily have 40 lb swings on almost every ride with fuel weight alone! :fing02:

BaileyRock

You'll easily have 40 lb swings on almost every ride with fuel weight alone! :cool:

Yeah, that's my excuse for running a 1300# spring and I'm sticking to it. Kevin doesn't say I'm overweight, he just says I have a large mass. The man's a real gentleman. :wheel:

20# or 30# weight loss (or gain) one way or the other isn't going to make a big deal. What Kevin and I are getting at is that 99% of the suspension gurus are so far off base on what spring is needed.

Someone back up the line made the comment about we wouldn't believe how stiff a spring they run and how little preload they have. I'm not surprised at all. Once you hit on the correct spring, you will dial it in so little preload it's unbelievable. I like the super light suspension fluid also.

The correct spring requires very little preloading. If you have to keep cranking on the adjuster to get your rider sag numbers correct, you're way off on your spring rate.

I'm the same as Jason. 220lbs with no gear. I got an Ohlins rear shock with a 19.36Kg (1085lbs) spring. When I first installed the shock with everything backed out. I had 9mm free sag and 39mm rider sag. I had 9 turns on the adjuster to get 7mm free sag, and 35mm rider sag. After reading this thread, I don't feel I was too far off with my spring choice. You all agree?

RustyA

I'm the same as Jason. 220lbs with no gear. I got an Ohlins rear shock with a 19.36Kg (1085lbs) spring. When I first installed the shock with everything backed out. I had 9mm free sag and 39mm rider sag. I had 9 turns on the adjuster to get 7mm free sag, and 35mm rider sag. After reading this thread, I don't feel I was too far off with my spring choice. You all agree?

Yes, you are right in range. Maybe slightly low on the spring rate, but close enough to not spend another $100 on another spring. Unlike Jason who has a 1200lb to slap on his, I'd like to see what numbers he gets after that change. :fing02:

I weigh 190 and us the same 19kg spring.

BR

BaileyRock

RustyA

I'm the same as Jason. 220lbs with no gear. I got an Ohlins rear shock with a 19.36Kg (1085lbs) spring. When I first installed the shock with everything backed out. I had 9mm free sag and 39mm rider sag. I had 9 turns on the adjuster to get 7mm free sag, and 35mm rider sag. After reading this thread, I don't feel I was too far off with my spring choice. You all agree?

Yes, you are right in range. Maybe slightly low on the spring rate, but close enough to not spend another $100 on another spring. Unlike Jason who has a 1200lb to slap on his, I'd like to see what numbers he gets after that change. :rolleyes:

I weigh 190 and us the same 19kg spring.

BR

I got my shock back after the leak and Elka did good by me. Quick free service. I stuck it back in with the 1100# and got 35mm with 9mm free. I also checked the numbers with my bags on and loaded and only lost 3mm of sag. 3 clicks cured that on the pre-loaded.

I'll put the 1200# in at the end of the month Maybe and most likely keep it in. Right now the ride is amazingly awesome, can't believe it's so nice after a 28% increase in spring rate. Good valving makes all the difference.

jasonsmith

BaileyRock

RustyA

I'm the same as Jason. 220lbs with no gear. I got an Ohlins rear shock with a 19.36Kg (1085lbs) spring. When I first installed the shock with everything backed out. I had 9mm free sag and 39mm rider sag. I had 9 turns on the adjuster to get 7mm free sag, and 35mm rider sag. After reading this thread, I don't feel I was too far off with my spring choice. You all agree?

Yes, you are right in range. Maybe slightly low on the spring rate, but close enough to not spend another $100 on another spring. Unlike Jason who has a 1200lb to slap on his, I'd like to see what numbers he gets after that change. :rolleyes:

I weigh 190 and us the same 19kg spring.

BR

I got my shock back after the leak and Elka did good by me. Quick free service. I stuck it back in with the 1100# and got 35mm with 9mm free. I also checked the numbers with my bags on and loaded and only lost 3mm of sag. 3 clicks cured that on the pre-loaded.

I'll put the 1200# in at the end of the month Maybe and most likely keep it in. Right now the ride is amazingly awesome, can't believe it's so nice after a 28% increase in spring rate. Good valving makes all the difference.

Great, glad Elka did you right Jason. :fing02:

I fought the same type attitude about thinking that a heavier spring would make my ride harsh! It does not, it's valving that effects harshness. Running the proper spring rate only make the bike work for your weight, valving is whats needed to smooth things out! wink.gif

BR

Just to keep the thread alive... Last year on my 4th gen, I revalved my forks with Racetech gold compression and rebound and the suggested (on Racetech site) .95 front springs. I also upgraded to the 929 rear shock. Found out the spring was too soft when I couldn't get a decent sag with rider. At the time I weighed about 185lb.

Over the winter, I have lost about 40lbs and am now down to a much healthier 145lb (I'm 5"7). I am going to get Jamie D. to change my rear spring to a harder rate, probably 19kgs to balance out the bike. I am just wondering if the whole thing is going to be too stiffly sprung for my now trimmer weight. Maybe I should just carry a bunch of water in my saddle bags? smile.gif

Honestly, I'd rather not have to disassemble the forks again, change springs, re-valve to match, etc. I want the easy button... I just don't know if there is one. Any opinions?

I mostly commute, but tend to ride fairly aggressively.

BaileyRock

I fought the same type attitude about thinking that a heavier spring would make my ride harsh! It does not, it's valving that effects harshness. Running the proper spring rate only make the bike work for your weight, valving is whats needed to smooth things out! wink.gif

BR

Well put Kevin. :rolleyes:

The springs are the "suspension" of the motorcycle. The shock absorber (be it an actual shock or the fork valving) simply controls the dynamics of the spring.

MadFrog

Just to keep the thread alive... Last year on my 4th gen, I revalved my forks with Racetech gold compression and rebound and the suggested (on Racetech site) .95 front springs. I also upgraded to the 929 rear shock. Found out the spring was too soft when I couldn't get a decent sag with rider. At the time I weighed about 185lb.

Over the winter, I have lost about 40lbs and am now down to a much healthier 145lb (I'm 5"7). I am going to get Jamie D. to change my rear spring to a harder rate, probably 19kgs to balance out the bike. I am just wondering if the whole thing is going to be too stiffly sprung for my now trimmer weight. Maybe I should just carry a bunch of water in my saddle bags? smile.gif

Honestly, I'd rather not have to disassemble the forks again, change springs, re-valve to match, etc. I want the easy button... I just don't know if there is one. Any opinions?

I mostly commute, but tend to ride fairly aggressively.

Have you check free & Rider sag on your bike since dropping to 145 lbs?

I would venture to guess that at 145 the front is too stiff now and the stock 929 shock wouldn't be to far off(check #'s).

I would just drop in some .85 in the front and see how the valving feels. Measure the stock 929's free & rider sag and go from there, I would think a 17 kg rear max. If you plan to remain at 145 you won't want the .95's at all IMO & and making the entire bike Too Stiff for balance is not a good approach IMO.

BR

MadFrog if you did your fork valving yourself you may have noticed that RaceTech's compression valving recommendations covers a few different spring rates based on the style of riding. The rebound valving is usually set to the spring but as Kevin stated above just throw in a set of less stiff springs and see how it feels. I'm not sure what oil weight your currently using but you could always thin it out a bit if the ride isn't what you want and you really don't want to take it apart again. I'm running .95kg and I am 220lbs, they are perfect for me.

BaileyRock

MadFrog

Just to keep the thread alive... Last year on my 4th gen, I revalved my forks with Racetech gold compression and rebound and the suggested (on Racetech site) .95 front springs. I also upgraded to the 929 rear shock. Found out the spring was too soft when I couldn't get a decent sag with rider. At the time I weighed about 185lb.

Over the winter, I have lost about 40lbs and am now down to a much healthier 145lb (I'm 5"7). I am going to get Jamie D. to change my rear spring to a harder rate, probably 19kgs to balance out the bike. I am just wondering if the whole thing is going to be too stiffly sprung for my now trimmer weight. Maybe I should just carry a bunch of water in my saddle bags? smile.gif

Honestly, I'd rather not have to disassemble the forks again, change springs, re-valve to match, etc. I want the easy button... I just don't know if there is one. Any opinions?

I mostly commute, but tend to ride fairly aggressively.

Have you check free & Rider sag on your bike since dropping to 145 lbs?

I would venture to guess that at 145 the front is too stiff now and the stock 929 shock wouldn't be to far off(check #'s).

I would just drop in some .85 in the front and see how the valving feels. Measure the stock 929's free & rider sag and go from there, I would think a 17 kg rear max. If you plan to remain at 145 you won't want the .95's at all IMO & and making the entire bike Too Stiff for balance is not a good approach IMO.

BR

Thanks for the advice and quick response. I am not sure what my future weight will be. Ideally, I'd get back up to 155, putting on about 10lb of mostly muscle.

I guess it is going to come to a compromise. If I assume that my weight will be around 155 +/- 10 lbs, what's a good spring rate to use front/back? I'm at 145, without any clothes on, so about 150 fully dressed. Add another 10-15lb for riding gear + helmet, then my saddle bags with my lunch, rain suit and gym bag - that's another 10-20 lbs maybe?

So now, we're up to 170-190 lbs worth of fully outfitted rider and payload.

Arumph! I guess I need to weigh all my gear (and various combinations of shoes, boots, synthetic, leather) and my usual "luggage" to get a more accurate typical payload weight. I'm starting to feel for factory bike suspension designers...

Recently installed a Daugherty rebuilt shock (a stock 5th gen shock with a 1050#/in spring and gold valving), and I must say that I am very happy with the results. I had my front-end race teched a while back (.90 springs and gold valves) and the back-end was lacking. After a 200 mile ride today, my back has been transformed. It keeps the line well, and I felt confident all day. When I set up the rear suspension sag, I got a rider sag of 31mm and a free sag of 9mm with three turns of the preload adjuster (from all the way out) with 3/4 full tank of gas. I may lower the preload to see how it feels, but for now, I'm pleased. By the way, I weigh 185 lbs., but when I ordered the shock to be rebuilt by Jamie, I weighed 173-ish. Based on the desired sag numbers, I'm thinking that a 1050#/in spring is good for weights between 170-190 lbs. +/- 5 lbs.

jaimev34

Recently installed a Daugherty rebuilt shock (a stock 5th gen shock with a 1050#/in spring and gold valving), and I must say that I am very happy with the results. I had my front-end race teched a while back (.90 springs and gold valves) and the back-end was lacking. After a 200 mile ride today, my back has been transformed. It keeps the line well, and I felt confident all day. When I set up the rear suspension sag, I got a rider sag of 31mm and a free sag of 9mm with three turns of the preload adjuster (from all the way out) with 3/4 full tank of gas. I may lower the preload to see how it feels, but for now, I'm pleased. By the way, I weigh 185 lbs., but when I ordered the shock to be rebuilt by Jamie, I weighed 173-ish. Based on the desired sag numbers, I'm thinking that a 1050#/in spring is good for weights between 170-190 lbs. +/- 5 lbs.

Sounds good! :fing02:

I just installed a Penske on my street Vtec with a 1150 lb spring. With 10mm of pre-load I got 32-33mm Rider sag(in gear) with 9.5mm of free sag, pretty happy with those numbers and I weigh 185-190 at the moment!

Finally changed my fork fluid after 40k miles! :blink:

Now I just need to got out on it and work of rear shock settings. :wheel:

My Ohlins has the a 1050 lb spring and I think I got 10/32mm on it?

BR

BaileyRock

jaimev34

Recently installed a Daugherty rebuilt shock (a stock 5th gen shock with a 1050#/in spring and gold valving), and I must say that I am very happy with the results. I had my front-end race teched a while back (.90 springs and gold valves) and the back-end was lacking. After a 200 mile ride today, my back has been transformed. It keeps the line well, and I felt confident all day. When I set up the rear suspension sag, I got a rider sag of 31mm and a free sag of 9mm with three turns of the preload adjuster (from all the way out) with 3/4 full tank of gas. I may lower the preload to see how it feels, but for now, I'm pleased. By the way, I weigh 185 lbs., but when I ordered the shock to be rebuilt by Jamie, I weighed 173-ish. Based on the desired sag numbers, I'm thinking that a 1050#/in spring is good for weights between 170-190 lbs. +/- 5 lbs.

Sounds good! :fing02:

I just installed a Penske on my street Vtec with a 1150 lb spring. With 10mm of pre-load I got 32-33mm Rider sag(in gear) with 9.5mm of free sag, pretty happy with those numbers and I weigh 185-190 at the moment!

Finally changed my fork fluid after 40k miles! :blink:

Now I just need to got out on it and work of rear shock settings. :wheel:

My Ohlins has the a 1050 lb spring and I think I got 10/32mm on it?

BR

.90/1050 for 185-190 sounds bang on.

oh I so need to put my 1200# in.... just don't wanna take it apart again. sad.gif I think I'll loose 15 lbs, may be easier.

jasonsmith

.90/1050 for 185-190 sounds bang on.

oh I so need to put my 1200# in.... just don't wanna take it apart again. sad.gif I think I'll loose 15 lbs, may be easier.

Jason,

Don't worry about it, just ride the thing as you are SO close to perfect as is.

We just wanted to see what that small change would do. I just went 100 lbs stiffer and don't see much of a change except maybe gaining some free sag, but I'll have to do a two person re-check of the Ohlins w/1050 lb spring. :blink:

I think I'm .925 or .950 w/1150 lb rear now on the street Vtec and .950/1050 on the track Vtec.

BR

How come when I pull a stoppie, so all the weight is on the fork, it doesn't bottom out? The combined weight of me and the VFR is 350kg, say the front springs are 0.9 (stock is 0.63) then I need 194mm-16mm(preload) of travel or 350/(136*2) (120mm fork travel +16mm preload * 2 parallel springs)) = 1.3kg/mm springs. What role does the air chamber play here? Seems to me it is very significant and I do not see the need to have full range of springs in very small increments.

Anyone that can share some insight on this?

BR and VFRD folk... I just went back to 10W fork oil after trying 15W (a friend supposedly in the know recommended this but it is much worse, too harsh, confirming your spring vs valving comment)...

I knwo the OEM front and rear srpings ar too soft for me... 90 kg naked, always carry heavy tankbag and just bought OEM sidebags... I don't have the time to do the revalving up front with those gold valves... having to drill and such... So I'm wondering if I could opt for a compromise... if revalving is essential when incrementing front spring tension... Maybe I could work within the OEM valves' functional range and up the spring tension half way... OEMs are what? 0.75 kg?? So instead of going up to 0.95 maybe 0.85 would work???

I was considering sending the OEM shock off for respringin and revalving... it's fairly economical at 250€... unless I can find a decent 929 shock and have that resprung and revalved... that would be a gain in adjustability right? I believe it has compression adjustment, which the VFR shock doesn't have???

I ended up being obliged to change the fork seals after running up onto the piano at a track-day and they have these massive shudder-bumps to stop the trucks and cars that race at the track from cutting corners... (very dangerous for motorbikes. insert mad-devil icon) so I took advantage of the fact and went back to OEM spec fork oil.

So when are you thinking of getting back on the bike?? you surely have time to fine tune your babies to the nth degree.

V4 Rosso

What role does the air chamber play here?

The air works as a secondary spring, it will effect the full range of travel some, but has the biggest effect on the last portion of travel and can be used to help prevent bottoming. It is a tuning tool and all you need to do is +/- cc's of oil level. :blink:

V4 Rosso

How come when I pull a stoppie, so all the weight is on the fork, it doesn't bottom out? The combined weight of me and the VFR is 350kg, say the front springs are 0.9 (stock is 0.63)then I need 194mm-16mm(preload) of travel or 350/(136*2) (fork travel +16mm preload * 2 parallel springs)) = 1.3kg/mm springs. What role does the air chamber play here?

I've been led to believe that the air chamber has everything to do with that final compression phase of the fork... but I'm just repeating what I've gleaned from fairly trustworthy sources... I actually had the oil level in my VTEC forks filled to 95 mm from the tube tops instead of the 100mm OEM spec... apparently this gives the forks a little stiffer action in that last part of their compression under heavy braking etc...

I can see it acts as a progressive spring. Only I hadn't given it any thought before and to me it seems it plays a very important role, not only in the final stroke of the suspension travel, yet I see it hardly being discussed in topics like this. I have progressive aftermarket springs suited for my weight (230lbs) and riding style (relaxed) and for the first two thirds of suspension travel the rate is 0.67 (rear is 21kg/mm) so it is pretty close to stock but the instructions that came with it mentioned to set the air chamber to 170mm instead of the stock 178mm. The new springs take up 60% more volume than the stock springs so in all the air chamber has decreased considerably. The last one third of suspension travel the spring has a rate of 1.1kg/mm still far off from the average of 1.3kg/mm.

V4 Rosso

How come when I pull a stoppie, so all the weight is on the fork, it doesn't bottom out? The combined weight of me and the VFR is 350kg, say the front springs are 0.9 (stock is 0.63) then I need 194mm-16mm(preload) of travel or 350/(136*2) (120mm fork travel +16mm preload * 2 parallel springs)) = 1.3kg/mm springs. What role does the air chamber play here? Seems to me it is very significant and I do not see the need to have full range of springs in very small increments.

Anyone that can share some insight on this?

Your actual weight on the forks when you do a stoppie is dependent on the angle of your stoppie and the inertia that you built up prior to your stoppie as well as a bunch of other dynamic factors. It can't be calculated that easy in my opinion.

Your air chamber upon your fork compression compresses, just like in hydraulics. If you have enough air to compress to a higher level, the force of the air on the surface area of your oil in your shock combined with the spring pressure can easily overcome the minor weight of you and bike. The less air the less it will compress upon fork compression the less it will fight back. The more air the more it will compress and the more it will fight back upon compression.

This thread to me has been mostly about the "balance" of a bike more so than tuning per se, but being such an awesome thread it may be a good idea to talk about the air a little bit.

jasonsmith

Your actual weight on the forks when you do a stoppie is dependent on the angle of your stoppie...

I realise it's more complex with the forks not being vertical. Decellerating with the rear just of the ground adds even more load on the front than just the weight of the bike and rider.

The less air the less it will compress upon fork compression the less it will fight back. The more air the more it will compress and the more it will fight back upon compression.

It's just the opposite. The smaller the initial air chamber the higher the progressive rate of the air spring will be.

This thread to me has been mostly about the "balance" of a bike more so than tuning per se, but being such an awesome thread it may be a good idea to talk about the air a little bit.

That is why I brought this up. How can you talk about balance if you only focus on coil springs and more or less ignore the air spring? Swapping fork springs means altering the air spring too as every coil spring takes up a different volume. Like I said, the new rear spring on my 3rd gen is now 21kg instead of the 16kg stock yet the rate of the front springs has decreased from 0.69 to 0.67 but they have to be installed with a little more preload (+4mm) and a smaller air chaimber. With the lower rate springs and smaller air chamber I was now able to get correct sag numbers that I could not with the stiffer stock fork springs, stock air chamber and the preload adjuster maxed out (The new springs have more preload because they are 10mm longer than stock so I could back out the preload adjuster by 6mm).

Hopefully Jamie Dougherty will share some of his wisdom, not that I don't value your wisdom on this matter :pinocchio:, but in another post he mentioned using a 120mm air chaimber in 3rd gen forks instead of the stock 178mm and it would be interesting to know how/why he decided on reducing the air chamber by that large(?) amount.

You are correct, I totally got that backwards, the force will increase a lot quicker with less air. I still don't think the air does anything other than controlling the bottoming of the forks though. The air needs to be compressed for it to do anything past the springs and valving that are already in there. I think it has very little to do with the "balance" of the bike but is a great tool for tuning the bottom of your fork travel and brake feel.

edit: added "and valving".

history: my 04 had 1.0 and 18.34kg 3-way . I asked Phil work the forks for aggresive street with 220lbs. pilot.

had to pre-load the rear way too much for correct rider sag which of course topped out the shock and the front worked better the harder I rode I could really feel the small expansion joint on the highway.

the 08 has carbon fiber exhaust (hard bags for trips only) and I'm 210lbs. w/o gear

I kept the 3-way off the 04 that I intend to pair with a 20.3-21.4 spring

I ordered 1.0 springs again thinking I would have the forks shimed again.

will thinner fork oil and valve re-work take care of the harsh intial feel?

what about valves, are they really needed?

I was going to ask what wt oil you're using , I'm running 5 wt. (and it varies with brand o/oil).

Note: I'm not speaking from my own knowledge, it was worked out for me.

I have a sonic 1.0 with 5wt......... I'm 250 .... and carry 5lb t-bag(always) ....and 15 lb tail bag(always).

My frt is granked almost all the way...... works great release the brake and it comes back up and stays there except for a slight settle (but no po-go).....(not that I normally release the brake that way while riding, I smoothly release it).

Anyway oil can be a big factor.

04asphalt

history: my 04 had 1.0 and 18.34kg 3-way . I asked Phil work the forks for aggresive street with 220lbs. pilot.

had to pre-load the rear way too much for correct rider sag which of course topped out the shock and the front worked better the harder I rode I could really feel the small expansion joint on the highway.

the 08 has carbon fiber exhaust (hard bags for trips only) and I'm 210lbs. w/o gear

I kept the 3-way off the 04 that I intend to pair with a 20.3-21.4 spring

I ordered 1.0 springs again thinking I would have the forks shimed again.

will thinner fork oil and valve re-work take care of the harsh intial feel?

what about valves, are they really needed?

I think most of the harshness you felt with your old bike was from the TOO Stiff fork springs compared to the too Soft rear spring for your weight.

Like this thread I started, I was very disapointed in my bike after have the forks revalved/resprung and installing a Ohlins on the rear but only with a stock 850 lb spring on it. It felt good when I slammed on the brakes because of less fork dive, but felt crappy the rest of the time until I installed the stiffer 19kg spring.

BTW I now run a 20kg rear spring w/.95kg fork springs and it feels great.

I suggest a 21kg rear if you plan to stay with the 1.0 fronts. :tour:

BR

I will hopefully be taking my bike to Traxxion Dynamic which happens to be just 5 miles from house. They did my previous bike, a 2001 FZ1, and it was night/day from the before and after. I have a guy I know that works there I met through the FZ1 board and could really give me the best recommendations. I wish I could afford their AK20 cartridges for the front, but like will just go with a revalve, stiffer springs, new oil and bushings. On the back I'll go probably with the Penske double clicker with the remote resevouir (not sure if the piggyback style will fit). Likely this would run in the $1200-1500 range. That's about 35% of what I paid for the bike! However, if you plan to keep your bike for years and ride it regularly I feel it justified.

Gamecock94

I will hopefully be taking my bike to Traxxion Dynamic which happens to be just 5 miles from house.

Sounds great, plz let us know and be sure to ask them what spring rates they install. Hopefully TD in house won't just set-up the bike off some faulty VFR spring rate calculator like 90% of the other suspension shops seem to use! :ph34r:

BR

I own an RC46C/A6 (VTEC 06 ABS). I'm about to upgrade my suspension (both front and rear). I will replace the fork springs with ones from RaceTech and also install the Gold Valve kits (for compression and rebound). At the rear I will replace the stock shock with a HO605 from ohlins (external reservoir, hydraulic preload, compression and rebound damping adjustable).

I ride on the street (often at quite a spirited pace). Most of the times I ride without luggage, but I also do a couple of week-long trips each year with side cases and a tail-pack. Most of the riding I do is on twisty back-roads, where the pavement is at some sections very good, and elsewhere far from perfect (bumpy, cracked, and / or slippery). I weight approx 100kg (220lbs).

What spring-rates would you recommend? Having read this thread I'm leaning towards either .95kg/mm or 1.0kg/mm front, and 19.3kg/mm or 20.3kg/mm rear? The HO605 shock comes from ohlins with a standard 17.3kg/mm spring; I guess this is totally inadequate (or am I wrong)?

npat

I weight approx 100kg (220lbs).

What spring-rates would you recommend? Having read this thread I'm leaning towards either .95kg/mm or 1.0kg/mm front, and 19.3kg/mm or 20.3kg/mm rear? The HO605 shock comes from ohlins with a standard 17.3kg/mm spring; I guess this is totally inadequate (or am I wrong)?

I would do a 20/21kg rear on the front how about .975kg (one .95 & one 1.0) . Ohlins should install whatever spring you want at no extra charge.

BR

Baileyrock

I would do a 20/21kg rear on the front how about .975kg (one .95 & one 1.0) . Ohlins should install whatever spring you want at no extra charge.

BR

Thank you for your answer.

I'm a little hesitant to use so stiff a rear shock, since roads around here are often quite rough. I guess I'll stick to 0.95 front and 19.3 rear, and maybe play with a rider-sag a bit more than 3.5 (if I can't get a decent static-sag). Does this sound reasonable?

Also: Other than from RaceTech, do you know where I could find fork-springs at this rate? Do you know if Ohlins or WP have such fork-springs (suitable for the VFR)? I'm trying to locate a supplier that has good representation somewhere in the EU (or even-better locally, I live in Athens / Greece).

npat

Baileyrock

I would do a 20/21kg rear on the front how about .975kg (one .95 & one 1.0) . Ohlins should install whatever spring you want at no extra charge.

BR

Thank you for your answer.

I'm a little hesitant to use so stiff a rear shock, since roads around here are often quite rough. I guess I'll stick to 0.95 front and 19.3 rear, and maybe play with a rider-sag a bit more than 3.5 (if I can't get a decent static-sag). Does this sound reasonable?

Also: Other than from RaceTech, do you know where I could find fork-springs at this rate? Do you know if Ohlins or WP have such fork-springs (suitable for the VFR)? I'm trying to locate a supplier that has good representation somewhere in the EU (or even-better locally, I live in Athens / Greece).

comp/rebound will impact things more than anything with your bumps. the rate is necessary for your weight and to get proper sag geometry for handling. do what you will, but my suggestion is at least the 20kg spring.

turtlecreek

comp/rebound will impact things more than anything with your bumps. the rate is necessary for your weight and to get proper sag geometry for handling. do what you will, but my suggestion is at least the 20kg spring.

Thanks! So a 20.3kg/mm shock-spring, and 1.0kg/mm fork-springs, or 0.95kg/mm fork-springs?

npat

turtlecreek

comp/rebound will impact things more than anything with your bumps. the rate is necessary for your weight and to get proper sag geometry for handling. do what you will, but my suggestion is at least the 20kg spring.

Thanks! So a 20.3kg/mm shock-spring, and 1.0kg/mm fork-springs, or 0.95kg/mm fork-springs?

Yep, I would go .95 on teh front.

BR

rhema83

Not wanting to start a new topic, I am going to post my setup questions on this old but very useful thread.

What I gathered from this thread is that the 6th Gen VFR800A stock spring rates are 0 .74 kg/cm front and 15.5 kg/cm rear. These are way too soft for the average American rider, even in solo situations. But hey, Honda is a Japanese manufacturer and it probably designed the suspension for petite, sub-150 lbs Asian guys. And I happened to be the type Honda designed the suspensions for. :laugh: So I set my suspensions to the "standard settings" described in the manual, i.e. 2 lines showing for the front preload, 7 clicks from softest for the rear preload, 1.25 turns from stiffest for rear rebound, and measured my free and race sag.

Rider: 53.5 kg (118 lbs) bare

Front sag: 20mm free, 28mm static (Ohlins recommendation: 20-30mm free, 30-40mm static)

Rear sag: 25mm free, 41mm static (Ohlins recommendation: 5-15mm free, 25-35mm static)

I am using the Ohlins owner's manual as my reference. Am I correct that the springs are probably going to be alright for me, and that the front could use less preload (to increase the sag) while the rear could use more (to reduce the sag)?

Yes you are correct on all accounts! :smile:

The stock springs should work for you and the changes you suggest should take you in the right direction.

BR

PS welcome to VFRD!

Yeah me too WELCOME .....

With gear I am 240 lbs. I have an 07 with stock suspension all around but I did shim the rear shock with two large washers from Lowes and kept the forks in the stock position in the triple clamps. If I stay smooth at the controls the bike is solid on fair to good pavement. Bumpy or rough surfaces have me slowing down slightly to maintain a safety margin of control.

BR, do your suspension upgrades significantly improve your bike's bumpy road performance?

KEB

Yes it does! :tour:

But if I was as Smooth as you I wouldn't need it! :tongue:

BR

Slow makes smooth so easy. :smile:

At my pace the suspension is so tight and refined feeling I hate to mess with it. It limits my speed in some conditions but nit terribly. My Tiger 800 has a slightly softer, longer travel suspension that is a million times more refined than the VFR. If the Tiger had more ground clearance it would run off an hide from the VFR on roads like the Dragon but the VFR motor gives it a much higher top speed and i suspect if the Tiger had the same top end hit the bike would start to misbehave.

I say the Tiger feels flat on top but when I got home after riding with Adam all day the GPS showed my top speed was 139. Must have been when I tried to draft Adam's Beemer on that downhill section of the Cherohala. Adam can attest to how well the Tiger handles on rough pavement as he had no fun following it on Joyce Kilmer.

I paid a suspension outfit to set me up from the get-go. AND I got a better-than-internet deal on my Ohlins to boot! Same with the dynotuner I hired to work on the PCIII mapping.

Sometimes it pays to pay the specialist at the outset.

Glad it worked out eventually.

Hello I believe this is the right place to ask a spring rate question.

I am building my 5th gen 2001 VFR. I will put F4i front end with VTEC fork tubes and VTEC triple clamps. I am planing to buy AK-20s (we will see about that :) ) , and get NITRON Race Shock in the back.

What spring rate do you suggest for my weight (85kg/185lbs)?

The guy that will set up AK-20 for me said 0.95 in front, so I guess 19.6 in the back. Or is it better to go with 0.90 front and 18.6 in the back?

iskeHello I believe this is the right place to ask a spring rate question.

I am building my 5th gen 2001 VFR. I will put F4i front end with VTEC fork tubes and VTEC triple clamps. I am planing to buy AK-20s (we will see about that :) ) , and get NITRON Race Shock in the back.

What spring rate do you suggest for my weight (85kg/185lbs)?

The guy that will set up AK-20 for me said 0.95 in front, so I guess 19.6 in the back. Or is it better to go with 0.90 front and 18.6 in the back?

Depends slightly of what type of riding you plan on doing.

The .95/19.6 should be good and on the firmer side better for twisties and the other combo slightly softer for better touring/comfort.

BR

Baileyrock

iskeHello I believe this is the right place to ask a spring rate question.

I am building my 5th gen 2001 VFR. I will put F4i front end with VTEC fork tubes and VTEC triple clamps. I am planing to buy AK-20s (we will see about that :) ) , and get NITRON Race Shock in the back.

What spring rate do you suggest for my weight (85kg/185lbs)?

The guy that will set up AK-20 for me said 0.95 in front, so I guess 19.6 in the back. Or is it better to go with 0.90 front and 18.6 in the back?

Depends slightly of what type of riding you plan on doing.

The .95/19.6 should be good and on the firmer side better for twisties and the other combo slightly softer for better touring/comfort.

BR

Well I do both, that is why I bought VFR in the first place. When I am in the twisties chasing fellows on 1000RR, 1000 K7,8,9,... R1 and others I tend to ride fast and agressive. But When I am touring I always carry side cases, tob case and tank bag and passenger (I know too much). On stock susspension somethimes feels like I am doing push ups the whole trip.

So if valving is what makes ride plush or harsh not the spring it self. What is the best compromise? I must get it right at first try, because I am importing parts to Serbia (so called third world country), and it will be extremly expensive to send it back, almost as the cost of new.

As you said before, there is only one spring that fits the rider (based od free and rider sag numbers), I am guessing Better go firm I can dial in valving since I will have adjustable suspension. Or I am getting it wrong?

Ivan.

Based on your description of riding habits (either solo and hard charging the twisties or riding more moderatly but two up and loaded) I would suggest the heavier of the two choices you mentioned for front and rear.

I have been riding very much the same as you for the past three years both solo and two up and rarely move my suspension settings (maybe twice) between fast solo or two up fun pace.

iske

As you said before, there is only one spring that fits the rider (based od free and rider sag numbers), I am guessing Better go firm I can dial in valving since I will have adjustable suspension. Or I am getting it wrong?

Ivan.

Ivan, Springs or correct spring rates are the Foundation of any suspension, they support the bike and riders weight. Valving controls the springs osolation, suspension transitions, bump and ride control.

On the front running F4i parts allow adjustments of both comp & rebound which is Great, it allows for rider tuning to personal preference. The F4i rebound valving is decent, but the compression valving is poor. Installing some older Showa 3-port valve bodies would make a big improvement. You would have to change the shim stake to get full benifits.

BR

Here are the tables for a VFR800

Forks:

110-145lb 0.85kg/mm

145-175lb 0.90kg/mm

175-210lb 0.95kg/mm

210-245lb 1.00kg/mm

245-280lb 1.05kg/mm

Shock

110-145lb 1050lb/in

145-175lb 1100lb/in

175-210lb 1150lb/in

210-245lb 1200lb/in

245-280lb 1250lb/in

I would certainly suggest a set of 0.95kg/mm springs up front and a 1150lb/in (20.54kg/mm) spring out back. This would apploy to all street riders, the only time you would need to change is if you were an expert track rider on slicks. I hope this helps!

Baileyrock

iske

As you said before, there is only one spring that fits the rider (based od free and rider sag numbers), I am guessing Better go firm I can dial in valving since I will have adjustable suspension. Or I am getting it wrong?

Ivan.

Ivan, Springs or correct spring rates are the Foundation of any suspension, they support the bike and riders weight. Valving controls the springs osolation, suspension transitions, bump and ride control.

On the front running F4i parts allow adjustments of both comp & rebound which is Great, it allows for rider tuning to personal preference. The F4i rebound valving is decent, but the compression valving is poor. Installing some older Showa 3-port valve bodies would make a big improvement. You would have to change the shim stake to get full benifits.

BR

Thanks. I will keep that in mind.

JamieDaugherty

JamieDaughertyHere are the tables for a VFR800

Forks:

110-145lb 0.85kg/mm

145-175lb 0.90kg/mm

175-210lb 0.95kg/mm

210-245lb 1.00kg/mm

245-280lb 1.05kg/mm

Shock

110-145lb 1050lb/in

145-175lb 1100lb/in

175-210lb 1150lb/in

210-245lb 1200lb/in

245-280lb 1250lb/in

I would certainly suggest a set of 0.95kg/mm springs up front and a 1150lb/in (20.54kg/mm) spring out back. This would apploy to all street riders, the only time you would need to change is if you were an expert track rider on slicks. I hope this helps!

Thanks Jamie.

I notice on the rear is one rate higher than suggested same percentage increase front/back. But you are the expert. :)

So if I go .95 front and 1150 on the back (instead of 1100), I can't go wrong?

Ivan.

Ok. I went with CBR 600 F4i forks and mudguard, VTEC Triples, clipons. VFR Fi (2001) front wheel and axle and spacers (yes it fits perfectly). F4i front brakes (calipers and master), HEL Dual braided lines, rear master and HEL short line for bridge.

Jaime Daugherty supplied everything for front fork rebuild. Springs, valves, bushings, seals, and 929 shock conversion.

I did the transformation. I finished on Friday night.

First impression is:

Transformed Wow !

The package works great. Suspension and braking everything is very very good.

I would like to thank everyone on this great forum. It's is a real treasure to be here and read all this data, information, ...

Especially to Baileyrock and Jamie Daugherty.

This is how my bike looks now:

[image: 2013-08-01_19-15-30_565.jpg]

After test ride.

[image: 2013-08-01_19-15-52_49.jpg]

New forks and brakes.

[image: 2013-08-01_19-16-02_929.jpg]

[image: 2013-08-03_13-11-42_953.jpg]

[image: 2013-08-03_13-11-50_985.jpg]

[image: 2013-08-03_13-12-11_664.jpg]

[image: 2013-08-03_13-12-26_732.jpg]

[image: 2013-08-03_13-12-41_796.jpg]

I realy like the stock look. I think this is how Honda should make them in the first place.

Ivan

Nice job Ivan, is that a 5th gen front mud guard or a CBR600F4i piece?

never mind, missed it in the first sentence...very nice job!

The thread lives on!   :cheerleader: