Had It With Vfr Electrics.

My buddy Mookiethemagnificent calls me a couple months ago. Says he's planning to get his bike licence, and wants to buy a bike. Wants to know what bikes to look at. I of course am talking VFR, VFR, VFR...... Long story short, he ends up buying a bike from a member here - that lives in the Vancouver area.

Mookie gets the bike, gears up, and is enjoying the hell out of it. He gets some new tires put on, and diligently gets an appointment with a local shop to do the Valve check deal.

Saturday morning - he loads up his bike and is headed NORTH - ultimately for Inuvik, but his furthest stop is Whitehorse, in the Yukon. (He'd fly out of there to Inuvik). He gets as far as Kamloops, and his bike won't start after he gets to his hotel.

Long story short, he's now completed the Blue connector - ground wire mod - the Monitor wire fix, bought a new Yuasa battery that was fully charged to replace the 4 month old "new" battery that was in the bike, and once again broke down due to the battery not getting enough juice. He managed to get the batteries recharged, I talked him through pulling the fuse for his headlights to get him to the next town with a Honda dealer, and he's likely and hopefully still in motion on the way to 100 mile House (I think).

The Crux of my post here- is simply to show disgust for what should not have to happen to get a f#cking modern bike to charge a battery, and reliably start when requested. My friend is not a mechanical wizard - quite the opposite actually but through emails of photos, me tearing into my bike last night at 2 am to create a "how to" on th electric fix of the Monitor wire - He's learning a lot - and fast.

I feel like a total shmuck for pushing him so hard to get a VFR. And that is embarrassing to me. These are great bikes, just a real PITA to trouble shoot when this type of thing happens. Also - it would appear they are not easy to predict when the bottom will fall out on the electrical system. Not what you want on a 1000 mile trip.

Anyway - I'm sure I'll be back on the phone with him tonight to make sure he got to his destination without a grizzly eating him up for a late night snack.

If I ever get the right person or group at Honda to listen, they will get an ear full.......

Rant off. sad.gif

Sorry to hear about your friend's woes.

To be honest< i don't think the electrics on the VFR are that big a deal. Yeah, given that it seems to be a matter of "when" not "if" as far as failure of the charging system goes, you'd think Honda would've addressed it with The Final Solution years ago, but I guess to them that because the average bike (VFR or otherwise) lasts beyond the 4 years old stage (or whatever is considered "ready for the scrapheap" in Japan), they probably consider it a non-issue.

When I was disabused of the "It's not going to happen to my VFR" notion by it failing, and rewired the electrical system, I thought that was the end of the problem. It was - until I bought a VTR1000, and the same thing happened. It took me quite some time to diagnose it, as I thought it was a VFR-specific fault, so rationalised the symptoms as being "too little low-speed riding with too big a headlight bulb".

I discovered LOTS of brands and models of bikes have this issue, but not all of them reach the age/mileage the VFR does (both the VFR and the VTR had ~70,000km on the odometer).

Once again, now that I've got a bike with the NEW! Improved!! R/R, I'm not expecting a charging system failure, but if it does kark it, I'll just take it in my stride. It's more annoying than a flat tyre, and marginally more complicated to fix, but to me it's of the same order of magnitude, IMHO.

I'll probably be switching the headlights to HIDs and all other lights to LEDs to decrease power consumption for this very reason. If I sit in traffic for a while and then turn it off when I stop to get gas, it sometimes has trouble just turning over on a battery less than 1 year old (replaced when my stock R/R died Aug 06). We're talking Cleveland traffic, not LA traffic. I share your frustration. You'd think they would have figured it out since I'm sure there are folks who have been complaining since Gen 1.

The wiring on the 6th gens sucks for sure. I think most any bike is going to have common issues like this though, some of them are much worse.

The VFR is a great bike, but it certainly isn't perfect.

Mookie just called - he made it part way, and was going to risk riding in the dark without headlights to get to the next big town - had a Honda Dealer he'll hit in the am.

His attitude is good so far - and he's not cussing me out for pushing him to the VFR, so far.......

HID headlights make good sense for this bike - I'm going to look into that as a way to premptively defeat the gremlins!!!

I'm more annoyed for the folks that aren't mechanically inclined to search problems out - as they are the ones that will get royally screwed when an issue happens, and they get billed for 30 hours of search and destroy..

You would think Honda would use slightly larger wires or whatever is needed to bulletproof the electric system. sad.gif

Only problem I had with my 98 was the Rectum Fryer. Replaced it and no more roids. :pissed:

My last bike had one failure in the 40,000 miles that I had it, stator went out at 20,000 mile

My 06 VFR has 23,000 on it, so far so good( no failures yet). I did open and hit the connections with wd40 in the early miles, I need to recheck though as its been many thousands of miles.

The first few days/weeks I had my VFR, I had to start troubleshooting the charging system. Boy did that make me have to learn about my new bike fast! I finally got it straightened out and haven't had any problems with anything since(knock on wood).

I sure picked one of the most PIA problems to start with! I think bleeding the brakes was easier than that RR, stator, battery crap!

I was beginning to think I had bought a lemon and the wife was none too happy to see the newly purchased bike apart and me working on it already.

Kanadian KenMookie just called - he made it part way, and was going to risk riding in the dark without headlights to get to the next big town - had a Honda Dealer he'll hit in the am.

His attitude is good so far - and he's not cussing me out for pushing him to the VFR, so far.......

HID headlights make good sense for this bike - I'm going to look into that as a way to premptively defeat the gremlins!!!

I'm more annoyed for the folks that aren't mechanically inclined to search problems out - as they are the ones that will get royally screwed when an issue happens, and they get billed for 30 hours of search and destroy..

Well, that's not even close to be funny. He pm'ed me to get the recall letter. So what happened with that? For me, this is a clear case of a defective charging system. I wish he had showed it to me, I would have also done the Zam70 wire beef up.

SG

I am with you Ken...A shiny new bike in the ditch overnight is not too cool...the melting wires..SHAME ON YOU HONDA..really puts a bad feeling for such a great bike...a small problem that should have been addressed gets completely ignored..send a box of the melted fuse holders to Japan and ask WTF? My bike smells like its burning on every ride, thanks Honda

VFR4LeeYou would think Honda would use slightly larger wires or whatever is needed to bulletproof the electric system. sad.gif

Well, ripping into my '90, I discovered these problems (not in order of importance).

Firstly, the R/R's Honda uses are made by Shindengen, a Japanese electrics manufacturer. Sensibly beefy R/Rs were available from them for YEARS before Honda started putting them on the 5th Gens. Typical Honda: ignore it unless you're getting bikes exploding or whatever.

Secondly, Honda seems to have decided that the R/R was ugly, and needed to hide under the plastic. Many other bikes had (and have now) beefy R/Rs that live out in the open air. Honda instead decided that the best places was under the right-hand rear cowl on the 3rd/4th Gens, where it's nice'n hot. It took until the 6th gen before they shifted it somewhere sensible.

Thirdly, the wiring is all too thin. It's built to a budget, and to only slightly bigger than will do the job, and to a lifetime (probably corresponding with the Japanese mandatory vehicle lifetime of 4 (?) years). Yes, thicker wires are heavier, and add to the cost of materials.

There are too many plugs and connectors, which are sources of corrosion, potential failure, and resistance. If the components are sufficiently robust and well engineered that replacement isn't likely, they don't really need plugs. Yeah, it's nice to be able to plug'n'play, but not the only option.

On the 3rd gen at least, the wiring is too long.

So, I took all these things, ripped out the new R/R crudely installed by the shop, and started again. I mounted the R/R under the steering head, in the breeze, and stuck the horn under the fairing. I rerouted the stator wires, cut hem as short as possible, and connected in some heavier ones to the R/R. And from the R/R directly to the battery (via a fuse), with an extra earth to the frame from the R/R. I didn't run it through the starter relay, as that was an unnecessary complication.

Amazingly, it all worked, and gave me more volts, and less things to check (no plugs, no skinny wires, no places for galvanic corrosion).

Ken,

What year is your buddies vfr? I understand your disgust for Honda over this type of issue. Make the bike cost $50 more and do it right! I guess this is their revenge for WWII. FWIW my '04 is still on the original battery with no RR issues etc. Although I did do Baileyrock's grounding mod around the blue connector. The vfr is my main form of transportation so I can't afford to have it die on me. I also carry some extra fuses in the tool bag.

Got an email from MOokie this am. He made it to Prince George (he disconencted the headlights) and stayed over night. He went to the HOnda dealer, and they told him he'd have to wait a week to get it looked at.

He decided on the spot to turn around, and run the 10 hours back south to Vancouver. He figured he'd have a better shot at getting it fixed there.

His bike is an 02, but the battery in it was only 3 or 4 months old.

My guess at this point is the Alternator/Stator.

He must be a very pissed off new owner of a 90% great bike. THe previous owner was from this forum, and he's been superb in answering Mookies questions - post purchase. (I can't recall the members name). He didn't have any electrical issues with it.

ANyways - I guess my buddy gets to ride home without lights, and I hope he hasn't any further issues getting home.

Ken,

Right there with you. I just bought a 98 and have spent more time fixing the electrical gremlins than riding it. Had it for only 3 months and only have 250 miles on it. It did the guage reset and non-start on me 50 miles from home and now I'm paranoid. Ended up replacing the stator, r/r and battery but the stator wires get really hot. Everything I've read indicates the hot stator wires are normal and it is just a matter of time, imho, b4 that system fails again.

I'll slowly go farther and farther from home but if she breaks down out on the road, bye bye.

Such a wonderful bike that is a very nice one bike platform that suffers from breakdown problems, just a matter of when.

Kanadian KenHe went to the HOnda dealer, and they told him he'd have to wait a week to get it looked at.

Did he mention his bike was disabled and he was in the middle of a trip? Did he talk to the manager? If so, that is a crappy way to treat people. :rolleyes:

Kanadian KenHe must be a very pissed off new owner of a 90% great bike. THe previous owner was from this forum, and he's been superb in answering Mookies questions - post purchase. (I can't recall the members name). He didn't have any electrical issues with it.

Hey Ken, I just stumbled across this thread.

I sold the bike to Mookie and I spoke to him on the weekend and I totally commiserate with him.

The bike is an 2002 and I bought it new in 2003 from Richmond MS (a left over '02 - one of three zero mileage bikes they had left - not a demo). I had absolutely no problems with the bike and the wiring/electrical is totally stock. Still even has all the original fuses - I never did get around to doing heated grips, vest or anything like that. The battery was new in January (replacing the original that couldn't turn over he bike after Dec/Jan without running the bike) from Carter Honda - Mookie has the receipt. No issues with the new battery - I ran the bike regularly until I sold it.

To answer a previous question, at the first service, Carter Honda checked with RMS to make sure the electrical recall was done - RMS had punched one of the numbers on the serial number sticker to indicate the recall was done. The other recall (brake proportioning valve) was done at Carter.

The only time the bike left me stranded was when I got 2 flats on the PNW ride last year - Silver#788 and I had a great adventure getting the tire fixed, and it was well documented on this site. Not exactly the bike's fault. Otherwise, the bike was bullet-proof - totally reliable.

There is only one thing that I could think of - I may be mistaken, but I think Mookie said that was running the high beams during the day (maybe occassionally?) in the hottest days of the summer the last week - mid to upper 30 deg C. This shouldn't be an issue on a modern bike, but could this lead to problems. FWIW, the only time I ran the high beams for any extended period were two quick night runs - one through the Duffey, and through White Pass heading home after last year's PNW ride. He is not running the lights now, but could this have led to an overheated r/r and problems? If I misunderstood him re: running high beams, I apologize and will remove the reference here.

I cannot imagine how pissed he is that the bike is letting him down. I will continue to offer whatever support / info I can - I hope to pick up a new bike next year - I hope these apparent gremlins are gone from new bikes.

Bought my 98 about 3 1/2 years ago. Had the bike 2 weeks and the batt died. Charged it and it continually died again and again. Changed the R/R and not a problem since. Very common problem. Funny part is some people say it is not a common problem. But, since I was contradicted on this site I sure have seen alot of people with the same problem and the same solution.

98-01 battery problems - Change the R/R. Nuff said.

Thumper 8

Kanadian KenHe must be a very pissed off new owner of a 90% great bike. THe previous owner was from this forum, and he's been superb in answering Mookies questions - post purchase. (I can't recall the members name). He didn't have any electrical issues with it.

Hey Ken, I just stumbled across this thread.

I sold the bike to Mookie and I spoke to him on the weekend and I totally commiserate with him.

The bike is an 2002 and I bought it new in 2003 from Richmond MS (a left over '02 - one of three zero mileage bikes they had left - not a demo). I had absolutely no problems with the bike and the wiring/electrical is totally stock. Still even has all the original fuses - I never did get around to doing heated grips, vest or anything like that. The battery was new in January (replacing the original that couldn't turn over he bike after Dec/Jan without running the bike) from Carter Honda - Mookie has the receipt. No issues with the new battery - I ran the bike regularly until I sold it.

To answer a previous question, at the first service, Carter Honda checked with RMS to make sure the electrical recall was done - RMS had punched one of the numbers on the serial number sticker to indicate the recall was done. The other recall (brake proportioning valve) was done at Carter.

The only time the bike left me stranded was when I got 2 flats on the PNW ride last year - Silver#788 and I had a great adventure getting the tire fixed, and it was well documented on this site. Not exactly the bike's fault. Otherwise, the bike was bullet-proof - totally reliable.

There is only one thing that I could think of - I may be mistaken, but I think Mookie said that was running the high beams during the day (maybe occassionally?) in the hottest days of the summer the last week - mid to upper 30 deg C. This shouldn't be an issue on a modern bike, but could this lead to problems. FWIW, the only time I ran the high beams for any extended period were two quick night runs - one through the Duffey, and through White Pass heading home after last year's PNW ride. He is not running the lights now, but could this have led to an overheated r/r and problems? If I misunderstood him re: running high beams, I apologize and will remove the reference here.

I cannot imagine how pissed he is that the bike is letting him down. I will continue to offer whatever support / info I can - I hope to pick up a new bike next year - I hope these apparent gremlins are gone from new bikes.

Thumper - thanks for chiming in!!

Mookie said he wasn't running the brights after he spoke with you - thanks for tipping him off to that.

In his hotel parking lot he's done the blue connector fix, and the monitor wire fix. He was heading back to Vancouver as of this AM, and I hope to hear from him soon.

Jeremy - Mookie would likely have talked his way into the Dealer principals office, and discussed ALL repair options before accepting their one week wait BS.

I'll definately post up what his mechanical gremlin was. A full electric charging system check will be done by me on my bike ASAP.....

jeremy556Did he mention his bike was disabled and he was in the middle of a trip? Did he talk to the manager? If so, that is a crappy way to treat people. :rolleyes:

That seems to be a common problem! In my experiences, if you are not a local many places seem to have the attitude that they can take advantage of you or at least not go out of the way for you because you will never come back. Why piss off a regular customer to help out a guy you'll never see again!

Not saying this is the right way to act, just that it seems to be the way many places treat out of towners.

Oh, by the way KKKen I hope your friend makes it back OK and gets his bike back in proper working order. Sorry to hear his vacation got so messed up and hope he doesn't blame you.

Glad you brought up the high beams issue. I did run them during the day when the bike was new but after reading about some of the electrical issues decided it was to risky. For the longest time now I have only used the high beams at night when out in the country, as opposed to daytime stuck in traffic use. Definitely something to consider.

Mookie is 30 minutes from home. He just emailed me via the Crackberry.

Says his ABS light is now flashing. I responded that the ABS likely senses that it isn't receiveing enough juice to properly function.

HOpe his ride was decent.....

Kanadian KenMookie is 30 minutes from home. He just emailed me via the Crackberry.

Says his ABS light is now flashing. I responded that the ABS likely senses that it isn't receiveing enough juice to properly function.

HOpe his ride was decent.....

Wait till you see all the damn wiring, I added. You'll poop.

update:

"Time of death 9:02. So I made it, but only to Surrey."

Said he was about to call CAA/AAA. Must mean his battery is completely drained. He'll likely get them to jump start him and he'll ride the next 10 minutes home - I hope!!!

Rivcyko

Kanadian KenMookie is 30 minutes from home. He just emailed me via the Crackberry.

Says his ABS light is now flashing. I responded that the ABS likely senses that it isn't receiveing enough juice to properly function.

HOpe his ride was decent.....

Wait till you see all the damn wiring, I added. You'll poop.

Do tell!!!!!! :thumbsup:

After replacing three RR's on three different VFR's I started to monitor my current ('98) model's voltage by installing a small voltmeter as was described on a how to thread on this forum.

I noticed that my voltage was about 1.3 volts lower compared to a friends identical model and also that I was putting out more voltage at 2,000 rpm than at 5,000 or higher. I also had starting problems at the begining of a long journey so I removed the headlight fuse for the remainder of the trip (4 days and 800 miles). The voltage w/o headlight was now up to my friends model although it still put out 0.75 v. more at 2K rpm than at 5K. The important thig is I had no more starting issues or guage resetting issues.

When I got home I wired in a switch to manually turn the headlight on and off. I now run w/o headlight in the day. I've put over 1,000 miles on the bike since installing the switch and the battery is fine. I know this is a band-aid approach to the infamous VFR charging system problems, but at least this band-aid remains stuck.