Starter solenoid for 6th gen stuck energized

Filing under "stuff I will try to fix later today..."

I just tried to start my bike for a quick grocery-getter trip, and the solenoid for the starter stuck on.  As in turning the kill switch and ignition key to "off" or "lock" did not stop it.  I had to pop the saddle off as quickly as I could to unplug the battery, and when power was reconnected the starter kept running.

Assuming I need a new starter solenoid here, but is there anything else I should or could look at?  As for why it happened, aside from age and electrical weakness (I just replaced the RR at 40K+ miles, had the original till now), I think I bumped the kill switch in the middle of hitting the starter.  Probably shouldn't have killed the solenoid but...oh well.

I have seen a similar situation with an aircraft heavy duty relay many years ago where the arcing of contacts with the high current caused the contacts to weld themselves together.

Hitting the Kill Switch accidentally should not cause any issue as it's just the same effect as releasing the Starter Switch.

The other thing you should check for is the starter relay wiring connector making sure you don't have some kind of short from your Main 30amp Fuse A to the Yellow/Red wire. This would have the same effect of a permanently energized relay.

Either way I wouldn't hesitate in replacing the Starter Relay. Hope your Starter Motor survived the ordeal!

You can run some operational checks of the Stater Relay on the bike by disconnecting the main heavy lead from the Relay that goes to the Starter Motor. Checking voltages, continuing and operation, it just won't be powering the Starter Motor in this state.

If the Relay continues to remain in a closed state with the 30amp Main Fuse A removed then that would be a good sign of welded main contacts, or even a broken internal return spring.

Keep us posted with what you discover ShipFixer as this is a rare situation you have.

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Yeah, measure continuity between B and M terminals of solenoid to verify if contacts are welded.

Also make sure you don't have any power on Y/R trigger line to solenoid. 

I had similar issue several decades ago that fried starter. Turned out issue was stuck contacts in start-button. The plastic button part when up & down OK, but electrical contacts stayed stuck together due to some misalignment of spring.

Well...that was weird.  It was definitely the relay and it's stuck energized.  No shorts elsewhere.  New relay works fine.  Previous owner did replace the power cables with thicker gauge wire as per VFR tradition but there were no shorts, etc. in his repair work.

What's kind of troubling is the 30A fuse seems to have "tried" to blow, but the fusible link fell over to one side and let the current keep going.  Plastic fuse slot and fuse body were melting a bit.  Guess it would have kept going a while longer if I hadn't pulled the battery out. 😐

Glad it happened at home and not on the road somewhere!

Yeah, the link inside of the main fuse.  It looks like it tried to break but didn't.  Not heat damage from the failing relay either, but current running through it that also melted its socket in the relay a bit, along with the plastic part of the fuse.

Looking at the diagram it doesn't make sense with three switches open by then and a smaller fuse inline.  I'm guessing the relay cooked big time on the inside before I removed power.  I may cut it open later to see, will post pictures.

Glad the new relay sorted it. Sounds like a meltdown and short within the relay.

No switches will have any effect on this as the short appears to be directly from the battery positive to the Yellow/Red wire connection all within the Starter Relay.

I dunno...the fuse mystery makes me feel like I have a bomb parked in my garage 😁 

8 minutes ago, ShipFixer

I dunno...the fuse mystery makes me feel like I have a bomb parked in my garage 😁 

As long as both main fuses A and B are looking good and there are no excessive loads  then you should be fine.

Might pay to confirm your charging voltage is good just so you don't have an issue with the OEM R/R, if that is still fitted?

P.s. sorry, understand what you meant regards fusible link, removed previous post.

Just upgraded the R/R to a new school MOSFET unit a couple months ago, which is really like five or six rides ago.  Charging voltage was good after the relay swap, bike started and stopped, and switched electric stuff on and off just fine afterwards.

Still super weird!

3 hours ago, ShipFixer

Just upgraded the R/R to a new school MOSFET unit a couple months ago, which is really like five or six rides ago.  Charging voltage was good after the relay swap, bike started and stopped, and switched electric stuff on and off just fine afterwards.

Still super weird!

Good news its all running well, all electrical issues like yours will have a reason. While your issue is very rare there may have been a loose or corroded high resistance connection somewhere within the starter relay, causing heat, once supporting plastic starts melting in a confined space shorts could well be probable. Very important that the main Red wire coming from the 30amp A fuse, is that its spade connector to the Starter Relay is in good shape and not loose or burnt in any way from your previous issue. You don't want it to look like this.

[image: image2(2).JPG]

Thanks, I will check it out!  Pretty sure that's one of the ones that was replaced, so will cut away the electrical tape and look at it closely.  The spade connector itself appeared in good shape and I didn't see evidence of overheating at that part of the relay.  

When you say "in the starter" do you mean inside the relay (i.e., the stuff I've already replaced) or something else?  

12 minutes ago, ShipFixer

When you say "in the starter" do you mean inside the relay (i.e., the stuff I've already replaced) or something else?  

Yep, sorry (will fix that) was referring to the issue going on in the Starter Relay including the main fuse and connections within it.

Perhaps you need a name change - ShipFixer to VfrFixer!

Cheers.

Well the story isn’t over.  I’m stuck on the side of the 163 waiting for a tow truck, two or three miles from home.  The bike cut out a couple times so I started rushing to get back, then cut completely in a bad, dark spot in an underpass.  Coasted to the other side and tried to investigate when the starter began activating again.  Bike kicked itself over (on the new plastic of course).  First thing I found, the new fuse was blowing...then of course the new starter solenoid(?) kept going.  
 

Looks like a full end to end between the starter and the battery comes soon.  Must be something else going on here. Oh and what’s really fun?  Trying to get the battery out of a bike dropped on its side on a dark highway.  That was great...

Sad to hear of your continued starter dramas.

Strange thing you say " bike kicked itself over" is this because the starter activated?

Its one thing to have a power short to the starter coil BUT even that is protected to a degree by the Ground side for the starter coil.

If your bike was in gear and you have the sidestand down there should be no Ground for the coil.

The other ground for the starter coil is via the Neutral Switch so unless this is faulty this can't cause a tip over because you're in neutral.

Do a meter ohm check with the Starter wiring plug removed there should be no connection between the Main Fuse and the Yellow/Red wire terminal of the Starter Relay.

Make sure the wiring and operation of Clutch switch, Neutral switch and Sidestand switch are all ok.

Also check the operation and wiring (Yellow/Red wire) of the Starter Switch it might be sticking to on or shorting.

Make sure you don't have excessive loads nearing 30amps on Main Fuse A. Make sure that spade connector for the red wire from main Fuse A is/was making a good tight connection.

Sorry can't think of too much else at this stage. It sure is an unusual fault you have.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Was hoping you might post some ideas!

Yeah, because the starter activated.   It was while I had my hands around the solenoid after pulling fuse A out, along with all three spade connectors.  I was trying to get the spare fuse out thinking maybe I could ride the two miles home on it, after futzing with the cables hoping something was just loose.  Bike went from zero power to starter activating.  I don't recall any lights coming on while the starter was draining the battery (which is now cooling down  in my garage...ugh).  Bike was in gear, side stand down.  

Fuse looked the same as the last one, and it came apart again as I pulled it out.  Quite possibly heat damage instead of current directly blowing it.  

Looking at the diagram again and thinking about what happened...fuse A blowing slowly is likely why I lost power (I was able to restart it a few times), but then there must be some kind of short between the motor and the battery, in the two cables heading into the relay.

I'm going to write the previous owner and ask what exactly he replaced when he rewired the starter solenoid, and why.  It does not look at all like those main power lines are replaced, but he did a lot of splicing in the three cables heading into it.  

Ok here's what I think...I think I should replace all of these cables...

https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/honda/motorcycle/2002/vfr800-ac-interceptor/battery

I'm looking over the diagram, and exactly zero of this makes sense.  I don't think the solenoid is the root cause (it's a new one...what are the odds?).  And the control side power lost the fuse before I pulled it out...and then I removed the spade connectors.  It sort of makes sense that there is a short between the positive terminal and the starter motor cable directly, and it's pumping enough amps back through the solenoid to cook it?  

I'm going to remove all of this and dissect it.  I don't get it...  

I'm beginning to smell a rat with the previous owners wiring mods, whatever they are!!

What really concerns me is that you're saying you had the bike in gear, sidestand down and suddenly your Starter energized and over went the bike?

Look at the drawing, there is no way the relay coil can see a Ground even if there was positive applied to the other side of the starter coil! Both neutral switch and Sidestand are inhibiting a ground for the coil (in normal situations)

In stating the obvious the Starter Motor can only run when the two main Positive terminals of the relay are bridged, by the relay energizing! Perhaps some good pictures of the relay and main cables might help to see what's happening.

The power to the Starter coil and the ground side of the coil need to be thoroughly checked out per the drawing. You need to fully establish what the previous owner has done.

Good luck!

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Some quick photos before bedtime...

Looks like the new starter relay has survived  nothing appears burnt or melted.

Where is and what is the state of the 3 wires and connector to the relay? 

There's a lot of untidy wiring going on there.

Verify your new starter relay operation either in or out of the bike. And as mentioned map out all the wiring as per the drawing supplied  as a starting point.

Establish that whatever wiring mods are done that there is no connection or alteration to the starter relay coil power and ground side as this is all to do with safety logic for the starter, and should never be messed with.

Well...same as before, the fuse melted and failed in a very odd way.  It came apart again when I pulled it out, so not sure what's going on inside the relay.  The three wires are in the bottom two photos (wrapped in electrical tape...I assume by previous owner, I don't recall what they looked like stock).   The spade connectors themselves are fine, but I can't see what's going on directly until I cut away some of this tape.  

Will try to verify the relay later!

Just curious, do you think if I replace the battery wiring harness and starter motor cable, and straighten out/correct/replace the three control lines, there can't be much else wrong?

Since I have to replace the clutch lever and left footpeg now it's not urgent, I'd just as soon replace everything for the price from Partzilla.  

Looks like charging cable was installed. Remove ALL non-stock wiring for now.

Note fat battery-cables going to B+ and M terminals of solenoid has nothing to do with your issue. They don't go through 30amp fuse. That fuse supplies power to ignition-switch, engine stop-switch and start-button. Something is wrong with that circuit.

Measure before replacing perfectly working-parts with brand-new perfectly-working parts. Nothing will change! Disconnect starter-solenoid M-terminal before doing following tests.

1. check neutral indicator, does it turn OFF when you shift out of neutral?

2. measure output of start-button. Verify it turns OFF when you let up button.

3. measure trigger-input to solenoid. Verify it has NO voltage when you let up start-button.

If you don't want to measure, replace all following components with brand-new OEM PARTS from authorised Honda dealer. Too many aftermarket parts are crap right out of box. Replace:

- entire bike-harness, there's short somewhere, it should be completely replaced to rule it out

- ignition switch

- engine stop-switch

- starter-relay switch (starter solenoid)

- start-button

- fat battery-cables from starter-solenoid to battery and engine

- neutral switch

- sidestand switch

- clutch switch

- neutral diodes

Someone may have hot-wired your safety interloc switches in failed attempt to properly diagnose and fix starting issue.

ShipFixer, 12/10/2020 at 4:42 AM

Just curious, do you think if I replace the battery wiring harness and starter motor cable, and straighten out/correct/replace the three control lines, there can't be much else wrong?

Just to add to what Danno has stated. The first objective is to work out what is causing your issue. Then you can assess wether the battery wiring harness etc. needs replacing.

Even with the main starter Motor lead disconnected from the relay M position, you want to get to a stage where pressing the starter button reliably energizes the relay (you will hear it click in and voltage will transfer across to the M terminal), as well as de-energizing it when start button released. And this should ONLY happen when the bike is in Neutral, OR in gear with the Sidestand Up and Clutch pulled in.

Also determine what, if any, additional electrical loads have been added to Main Fuse A.

Check all the non standard wiring joints are good and no shorts.

I hope your Starter Motor has survived, its had a fair share of torture!

Good luck, keep us posted.

I know, I know, I'm just looking for that nuclear option 😄

2 hours ago, DannoXYZ

Looks like charging cable was installed. Remove ALL non-stock wiring for now.

Note fat battery-cables going to B+ and M terminals of solenoid has nothing to do with your issue. They don't go through 30amp fuse. That fuse supplies power to ignition-switch, engine stop-switch and start-button. Something is wrong with that circuit.

The cables you are referring to are for my heated jacket...unfortunately the only cable change from me.  I have no idea what the others are.  I Googled around for stock harness photos and it's obvious a lot of work has been done here.  It sort of looks like the stock harness but even the inline fuse box looks different.

Here's the thing though, if the 30 amp fuse and all three spade connectors are out, and I still have power going to the starter?  It was going until I got the battery out (again), and when I was jostling everything trying to get to the spare fuse.  It's possible it completely failed on the inside...but twice?

I do think there's something wrong on the control side since it was cutting out completely.  But I also want to pull and inspect the large power cables too.  What you're saying about an attempted hotwire makes me wonder what else is in there since it's not obvious from the stock diagram how that could possibly happen with no power through the control side.

27 minutes ago, ShipFixer

Here's the thing though, if the 30 amp fuse and all three spade connectors are out, and I still have power going to the starter?  It was going until I got the battery out (again), and when I was jostling everything trying to get to the spare fuse.  It's possible it completely failed on the inside...but twice?

Well if you have a situation where your relay main contacts have welded themselves in the closed state then there may be a short within the starter motor, you would have to be drawing a very excessive current for this to happen, potentially melting your main cables and potentially destroying your battery. You would expect this to happen when you would have tried a normal start, not just a random thing.

Your starter suddenly jumping into life causing your bike fall over, when you were in gear and Sidestand down. Is the most baffling one for me!

Sorry to say it, but I've never heard of your situation before and can't fathom that standard OEM wiring would ever cause an issue like this.!!!!

First clue, in between meetings:

Here's stock diagram. Trace each and every single wire you have and compare to diagram.

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For example:

trace +positive battery cable

1.  end bolts to battery. Find that cable end.

2. follow cable to other end

3. does it attach to starter-solenoid B+ terminal?

trace ALL other cables in starter-circuit this way. Note ANY anomallies that's not as shown in diagram. Then remove ALL non-stock wiring.

3 hours ago, ShipFixer

First clue, in between meetings:

[image: 3DF94C3C-7911-43B4-B10A-A290FBC84DA2.jpeg]

Is that original solenoid, or replacement one?
In either case, it's just symptoms and not cause of problem itself.

To get useful data for diagnostics, disconnect solenoid M-terminal, key ON:

1. check neutral indicator, does it turn OFF when you shift out of neutral?

2. measure output of start-button. Verify it turns OFF when you let up button.

3. measure trigger-input to solenoid. Verify it has NO voltage when you let up start-button.

The one I removed last night.  Not the previous one that I also thought failed, I'm looking for it next though.  Concur it's not the root cause...I think the last phase of whatever happened last night might have been the relay fusing again.  I'm just tinkering with what I can while I'm dialed into a meeting...

Also trace cable from starter-solenoid M-terminal to starter. Make sure insulation isn't frayed and exposing inner conductor. 

Also meter the relay fuse connections. You should have zero ohms from the main B terminal to one side of the fuse terminal, and the other fuse terminal must Only go to one of the spade terminals, there must not be any connection between the fuse terminals and the two relay coil spade connectors.

Just wondering are you sure your replacement relay is the correct one for the bike? Correct current rating?

Your control wiring for the relay coil both power 12v Yellow/Red wire and ground side Green/Red wire Must be thoroughly checked out to match the drawing.

38 minutes ago, Grum

Also meter the relay the fuse connections. You should have zero ohms from the main B terminal to one side of the fuse terminal, and the other fuse terminal must Only go to one of the spade terminals, there must not be any connection between the fuse terminals and the two relay coil spade connectors.

Just wondering are you sure your replacement relay is the correct one for the bike? Correct current rating?

Your control wiring for the relay coil both power 12v Yellow/Red wire and ground side Green/Red wire Must be thoroughly checked out to match the drawing.

I have zero ohms from one of the fuse terminals to both the motor and battery terminals (since they're stuck).  I have continuity from the other fuse terminal to two of the spade terminals, the lower two, away from the fuse block and power terminals.  I only had three spade connectors in and one of those two was not in use though (the right, lower one).

After going through two relays...I couldn't say I was 100% about it even if I was 🙃 It's possible that it's part of the problem twice over. 

53 minutes ago, DannoXYZ

Also trace cable from starter-solenoid M-terminal to starter. Make sure insulation isn't frayed and exposing inner conductor. 

This is high on my list of things to do!  It's not exposed right around the top end at the solenoid but I'm curious what's going on past that.

19 minutes ago, ShipFixer

I have zero ohms from one of the fuse terminals to both the motor and battery terminals (since they're stuck).  I have continuity from the other fuse terminal to two of the spade terminals, the lower two, away from the fuse block and power terminals.  I only had three spade connectors in and one of those two was not in use though (the right, lower one).

After going through two relays...I couldn't say I was 100% about it even if I was 🙃 It's possible that it's part of the problem twice over. 

Ah yes forgot to mention the fuse feeds two of the spades but you are only using one.

Well the good news is that it wasn't a short from the fuse across to the relay coil. 

You can now concentrate on the ground and power wires mentioned that energize the relay. Along with a few simple checks for shorts on your motor cables.

Ok just getting into it.  One of the repairs the PO made is he replaced the inline 30A fuse in the red cable off the battery (#12 in the parts diagram).  When I squeeze some of that I can break the connection between the terminal and the fuse socket.   It doesn’t have an obvious clip to connect to the harness anymore, it’s connected to a red/white line.  
 

What’s it supposed to look like?  Found a photo of one on google with a clip.  I assume this is all other power off the bike and it’s possibly why I dropped everything.

BTW...the solenoid sticking “on” again was the last gasp, before that the bike died (lights off, etc) several times in ten minutes while I was trying to get home.  Was able to start it each time.

Somewhat happy news, my battery is at 11.4V after cooling down in my garage all night and seems to be happy on my charger.

R/w is where he spliced it in, I assume that was a clip into the main harness there?  Going back up stairs to look at the service manual diagrams in a bit.

I’m cutting away the tape around the three connectors into the control side of the solenoid next.  What’s that supposed to look like?  Three free clips like this, or was it a clip at some point?

Another thing of interest...the 30A in both relays got hot but didn’t break...

Maybe two cheap relays in a row?  I got mine from Amazon and it’s pretty much identical to what was in there before from the previous owner.  But it had lots of reviews saying it worked fine, and I was pretty sure this was a freak thing.

ShipFixer, 12/9/2020 at 8:45 PM

Another thing of interest...the 30A in both relays got hot but didn’t break...

Maybe two cheap relays in a row?  I got mine from Amazon and it’s pretty much identical to what was in there before from the previous owner.  But it had lots of reviews saying it worked fine, and I was pretty sure this was a freak thing.

[image: 3EB86D13-557A-4D42-8D52-D28564BBB422.jpeg]

This one is easiest to deal with. Ignore and fuhget about it. Those fuses were melted due to heat from starter-solenoid running full-time. They didn't actually blow from too much current as you can see the fusible-link inside is still intact. Once you fix problem of starter-solenoid running full-time, fuses will be OK.

Ok, so the Main Fuse A in the Starter Relay you are now saying (and your picture proves it) that this fuse was not blowing! This helps because we were concerned for excess current somehow being drawn blowing the fuse!!! Which is now not the case.

So the Main Fuse A is feeding your Ignition Switch then all the services on your bike EXCEPT the EFI stuff. Your EFI is powered from the other Main Fuse B also 30amp. this power goes unswitched directly to the ESR (engine stop relay). Fuse B is also the R/R's output path to your battery.

Obviously the previous owner has had the common burn up of the red wire coming from Main Fuse A and rather than refitting the spades back into a proper plug he has left these as floating insulated spade connectors. You better make sure they plug into the correct spot on the Starter Relay. The Red wire must go to one of the two available terminals connecting to Main Fuse A. The other two wires are for the relay coil.

Main Fuse B, separate from the Starter Relay is known for overheating and causing EFI issues. Just make sure its wiring and fuse are ok with no sign of heat stress along with the Red/White wire joiner. Any issues with this fuse and its wiring will definitely kill your bike!

So back to your main issue, being the latching or uncontrolled starter relay operation, which appears to be not governed by the safety logic. So again the Yellow/Red and Green/Red wires and switches involved all need to be checked.

2 hours ago, ShipFixer

Ok just getting into it.  One of the repairs the PO made is he replaced the inline 30A fuse in the red cable off the battery (#12 in the parts diagram).  When I squeeze some of that I can break the connection between the terminal and the fuse socket.   It doesn’t have an obvious clip to connect to the harness anymore, it’s connected to a red/white line.  

[image: F8304D1A-4515-4F6C-B3F0-E9247CD3B771.jpeg]

PO did piss-poor "repair" if you can break electrical connection by squeezing wires! Yes, there's supposed to be connector after 30a fuse-B to go to R/W wire which goes to RR. So most likely your battery wasn't get charged properly in addition to causing dropouts in power to your ECU, injectors and ignition coils. This connection seems very suspect. Cut off heatshrink-wrap and let's see what it looks like. Also remove wrap around other side of fuse where it attached to R/W wire.
 

[image: image.thumb.png.80e618647faabeb52d9eb1461e37775d.png]

Also remove all this crap electrical tape and let's see what's underneath and how wires are joined. There may be short underneath, which may be what's activating starter-solenoid full-time. Whenever I see this kind of work, I always want to track down PO and break their kneecaps!

Ok, how about this one.  Red/white is the charging line from the regulator rectifier.  The other thing I've changed recently is a new MOSFET RR.  Maybe I did that wrong (although I don't see how) and that plus the charging line intermittently breaking is bad.  And since I have unfortunate recent experience...the last time, the battery ran the starter for quite a while before I got it pulled out.  This time, it didn't last very long.  It stopped (bike was on the ground, nothing to stop the rear wheel from turning) well before I got the battery out.  

Just now, DannoXYZ

PO did piss-poor "repair" if you can break electrical connection by squeezing wires! Yes, there's supposed to be connector after 30a fuse to go to R/W wire which goes to RR. So most likely your battery wasn't get charged properly in addition to running starter-solenoid & starter full time. This connection seems very suspect. Cut off heatshrink-wrap and let's see what it looks like.
 

[image: image.thumb.png.993f8647c546c594060518d967dc54b5.png]

Can't wait to see what's next...ugh.

Less exciting than I hoped.  I may have just not held the probes steady last time.  The solder under the shrink wrap is pretty solid.  
 

But I’ll check continuity from the RR tomorrow for sure.

I mean, the other thing that’s happened here is I replaced the RR...

13 hours ago, ShipFixer

Less exciting than I hoped.  I may have just not held the probes steady last time.  The solder under the shrink wrap is pretty solid.  
 

But I’ll check continuity from the RR tomorrow for sure.

[image: 5DFA44D9-4626-477C-8FAC-8A0A080AA338.jpeg]

No, it's very bad soldering job. It may look and feel solid, but it's what's known as "cold solder joint". There's lack of adhesion and penetration due to not cleaning original wiring (you can see corroded surface). And the folding-over of wiring tends to cause that U-turn to break over time. You can see some of it already starting to break on r/w wire.

You'll want to snip those joints off and re-do using proper Western-Union/Lineman's splice. Can skip pre-tinning step to make it easier to wrap. Be sure to slide heat-shrink tubing over before joining.

Remember, there never seems to be enough time to do it right 1st-time around, but there's always time to do it AGAIN! Often on side of road in total darkness and rain!

15 minutes ago, ShipFixer

Less exciting than I hoped.  I may have just not held the probes steady last time.  The solder under the shrink wrap is pretty solid.  
 

But I’ll check continuity from the RR tomorrow for sure.

[image: 5DFA44D9-4626-477C-8FAC-8A0A080AA338.jpeg]

Yeah  not the best solder joints I've seen. Did you flip the black cap and check the state of the fuse, that is wasn't heat stressed and making good contact.

I would be tidying up the soldering and sleeving the joins. You can then move on from Fuse B issues.

16 hours ago, ShipFixer

I’m cutting away the tape around the three connectors into the control side of the solenoid next.  What’s that supposed to look like?  Three free clips like this, or was it a clip at some point?

[image: B637AD84-8DCD-46A0-BD85-FC89D226F3AF.jpeg]

Original harness had connector for solenoid control. You'll want to restore your wiring back to factory spec by replacing those individual connectors with proper starter-solenoid connector: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XC7KY6S/

To install, cut back wiring from those individual spade connectors until you've removed all the bad splicing PO did; leaving only original 3 harness wires (G/R, Y/R and R).
[image: image.png.b6c5f0f20b957d911dc2816bf2f35058.png]

Then use proper in-line WesternUnion/lineman's splice to join new pigtail to harness. Combine the 2 red wires from pigtail together before connecting to harness's red wire. This will spread harness power-load across 2x spade-connectors instead of factory's 1 and prevent overheating.

• G -> G/R on harness
• B -> Y/R on harness
• R+R -> R on harness

BTW - DO NOT EVER use butt-splice crimp connectors. They don't meet high-reliability criteria and will fail on you (I use 50-year time-frame). All wiring-splices should be tied, soldered and adhesive heatshrink-wrapped. It's done this way in pro-motorsports, military and aerospace applications for performance, reliability and durability..

I cut off the plastic sheath and use the butt connector, I then crimp/steak it/and solder, followed by the heat shrink tubing that I thoughtfully installed on the wires before starting the yab. Straight butt connectors or other types of electrical connectors that just rely on a crimp are garbage and are gona bite you in the butt down the road. There is a connection called (well I call it a "Bondini") you strip back a portion of the wire, separate the portion you stripped and then twist in your donor wire in the centre parted section, followed by solder shrink tubing and electrical tape for good measure. I love the clear shrink tubing I have kicking around, it used on aircraft and you can see the solder joint etc.

20 hours ago, DannoXYZ

Original harness had connector for solenoid control. You'll want to restore your wiring back to factory spec by replacing those individual connectors with proper starter-solenoid connector: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XC7KY6S/

To install, cut back wiring from those individual spade connectors until you've removed all the bad splicing PO did; leaving only original 3 harness wires (G/R, Y/R and R).
[image: image.png.b6c5f0f20b957d911dc2816bf2f35058.png]

Then use proper in-line WesternUnion/lineman's splice to join new pigtail to harness. Combine the 2 red wires from pigtail together before connecting to harness's red wire. This will spread harness power-load across 2x spade-connectors instead of factory's 1 and prevent overheating.

• G -> G/R on harness
• B -> Y/R on harness
• R+R -> R on harness

BTW - DO NOT EVER use butt-splice crimp connectors. They don't meet high-reliability criteria and will fail on you (I use 50-year time-frame). All wiring-splices should be tied, soldered and adhesive heatshrink-wrapped. It's done this way in pro-motorsports, military and aerospace applications for performance, reliability and durability..

Thank you for the very clear directions!  After getting stalled and stranded I plan on making this thing as correct as possible!  I chose surfing tonight so haven't done much more.  I am also waiting on a better set of probes with alligator clips from Amazon for my multimeter (for some pandemic-related reason, Fry's closed the electrical-everything section, WTF?) so I can get more clarity on what may or may not be broken...too hard with only two hands, I am pretty sure I am chasing a couple intermittent connections but not 100% sure.  

I like what you are thinking about the ground in those wires and the solenoid connector (ordered!).  Is it possible if both the PO and I used cheaper relays that a short in there overheated the relay, welded the power side, etc. and that's where it's mostly contained?  And that plus breaks in the line to the battery let it discharge over time causing the stalling?  That's a story contained to the repairs I have spotted, so I am hoping that's the full story.

Still going to take everything apart and check of course.  I think I will just replace the whole harness where he spliced in the 30A fuse connection on the R/W line from the RR vs. trying to re-repair it.  

nah, relay themselves can't cause shorts. Never heard of one self-latching until it welded itself together. Always needed external trigger.

Clue to external short was when you were touching it in dark and it turned on starter by itself. One of those wires in that mess of electrical tape had gotten unshielded and shorted on to activation line of solenoid. You'll most likely find it when you start unraveling tape.

Also, not likely your RR replacement cause this issue. At worse, it'll result in battery not charging. But never run away solenoid. Good job on RR BTW. 👋

20 hours ago, ShipFixer

Thank you for the very clear directions!  After getting stalled and stranded I plan on making this thing as correct as possible!  I chose surfing tonight so haven't done much more.  I am also waiting on a better set of probes with alligator clips from Amazon for my multimeter (for some pandemic-related reason, Fry's closed the electrical-everything section, WTF?) so I can get more clarity on what may or may not be broken...too hard with only two hands, I am pretty sure I am chasing a couple intermittent connections but not 100% sure.  

You're most welcome!

No need for new probes, though. Just get some test-leads with alligator clips. Works with all different types of meters, even my oscilloscope. Just clip one end to probe and other end to test point. 👋

https://www.harborfreight.com/18-inch-low-voltage-multi-colored-test-leads-66717.html

Yup, just got an probe set coming, the meter itself is working fine.

Meanwhile, didn’t find anything obvious yet under the tape.  No shorts between any of the wires or ground when I move them.  It might change when I get some clips in tomorrow and can do more.  Could be further in the harness as well.

ShipFixer, 12/10/2020 at 6:59 PM

Still going to take everything apart and check of course.  I think I will just replace the whole harness where he spliced in the 30A fuse connection on the R/W line from the RR vs. trying to re-repair it.  

Hey, that's good idea! For the effort, don't just re-do the factory configuration though. You'll end up with same flaws as stock system and have issues in 10-yrs due to:

- brass fuse-holder terminals corroding over time and causing overheating

- brass spade-connector to R/W wire corroding over time

- crimped-on connectors not up to 30a load

I always prefer to upgrade to "better than stock" and cure problems altogether. Issue with stock ATO/ATC fuse-B is that 30a is upper-limit of that design. Fuse-to-connector interface starts overheating even before 30a current flow. We'll want upgrade to MIDI fuses which start at 30a and goes up to 200a. So cut off old fuse-holder so you have just red and R/W wire-ends to harness:

- 2x 1/4-hole solder-lugs, one sized for Red and one for R/W wire

- MIDI fuse holder
- 30a MIDI fuse
  

This is what I use on my sailboat. Tin-plated contacts are way more corrosion-resistant than brass, so you won't have heating-up issues like factory design. Clamping pressure from bolt-on interface give better power-transmission and keeps water out. Once installed, you can be sure this is last time you have to deal with fuse-B... for 50-yrs at least!

[image: uc?export=download&id=1UAyVe9hM3jkVv5sGu]

I prefer to use solder-lugs rather than ring-terminals for power applications. Much more robust, corrosion-resistant and handles much, much more power-transferred without heating up. All lugs are crimped, soldered and adhesive heatshrink-wrapped. For wires of fuse-B, we can probably use hand-held hex-crimper.

[image: uc?export=download&id=1vRUjX5ItEvC6dD_GW]

Ok I got some helpful intel from the previous owner!  He said the engine cut out on him a couple times, and the solenoid and connector melted.  In addition to replacing the solenoid and connector, he also repaired a shorting ground wire under the left side fairing, which seems familiar from some of the other threads, and the connector there had melted.  That seems pretty close to some other common issues in other threads.

3 hours ago, ShipFixer

Ok I got some helpful intel from the previous owner!  He said the engine cut out on him a couple times, and the solenoid and connector melted.  In addition to replacing the solenoid and connector, he also repaired a shorting ground wire under the left side fairing, which seems familiar from some of the other threads, and the connector there had melted.  That seems pretty close to some other common issues in other threads.

Interesting...

See if you can get more info from him:

1. Where is this left side-fairing ground wire? Colour? 

2. What did he do to fix it?*

This is good progress! These don't look like original female spade terminals bike came with. Cut away the wrap and let's see how the "repair" was done. Were these individually-wrapped when you unraveled the mess? When you're ready to repair harness with proper solenoid-connector, you'll want to trim these connectors off anyway.

[image: image.thumb.png.af88270034ecf3fd6fb8925a161c7365.png]

What happened to the yellow wires that were attached to those terminals? It appears he made short "extension" to reach solenoid?

[image: image.thumb.png.bb4ffa576c8d6b4a419fe324bacd0935.png]

Let's do some testing of power and ground sides of solenoid-control.

[image: VFR-StartCircuit2.thumb.jpg.c6ea47a0cc969db8dd4b79b49d9da063.jpg]

Leave battery disconnected. Set meter to lowest resistance range (ohms).

1. measure resistance between R and Y/R wire terminals. Ohms = ???

2. key ON, engine stop-switch to RUN, push START button. Ohms = ???

3. release START button. Ohms = ???

4. push & release START button couple more times. Behavior same?

5. measure resistance between G/R wire terminal and chassis-ground. Can use bolt on frame or battery negative terminal. Ohms = ???

6. put trans into 1st-year. Ohms = ???

7. put kickstand down, Ohms = ???

8. put kickstand up, Ohms = ???
9. squeeze clutch. Ohms = ???

We are building table/spreadsheet what's known as "finite state machine" in programming. It lists all possible states of important wire-junctions. Then we compare to the reference table of what it SHOULD be. Discrepancies will highlight areas for closer inspection. You have at least TWO issues. One is power-side of solenoid activating by itself.

Second issue is ground side of solenoid activation not working properly with interlock safety switches. Suspect PO had rigged and bypassed interloc safety switches. Which is how your starter was able to run with kickstand down. Fixing either, ideally BOTH issues will solve this problem for good.

DannoXYZ, 12/13/2020 at 12:54 AM

Let's do some testing of power and ground sides of solenoid-control.

[image: VFR-StartCircuit2.thumb.jpg.c6ea47a0cc969db8dd4b79b49d9da063.jpg]

Leave battery disconnected. Set meter to lowest resistance range (ohms).

1. measure resistance between R and Y/R wire terminals. Ohms = ???

2. key ON, engine stop-switch to RUN, push START button. Ohms = ???

3. release START button. Ohms = ???

4. push & release START button couple more times. Behavior same?

5. measure resistance between G/R wire terminal and chassis-ground. Can use bolt on frame or battery negative terminal. Ohms = ???

6. put trans into 1st-year. Ohms = ???

7. put kickstand down, Ohms = ???

8. put kickstand up, Ohms = ???
9. squeeze clutch. Ohms = ???

We are building table/spreadsheet what's known as "finite state machine" in programming. It lists all possible states of important wire-junctions. Then we compare to the reference table of what it SHOULD be. Discrepancies will highlight areas for closer inspection. You have at least TWO issues. One is power-side of solenoid activating by itself.

Second issue is ground side of solenoid activation not working properly with interlock safety switches. Suspect PO had rigged and bypassed interloc safety switches. Which is how your starter was able to run with kickstand down. Fixing either, ideally BOTH issues will solve this problem for good.

Ok...finally getting around to this as the surf forecast is hot garbage 😄

Infinite ohms between R and Y/R when key, switch, or ignition are off.  But ohms vary between 20 and 80 when all on, and sometimes doesn’t come back on when I switch the engine on off switch.  And swings as high as 180 ohms.  Something in there isn’t right so going to take it apart and check it out.  
 

Key switch and starter button appear good.

5.  Infinite

6. infinite

7. infinite

8. infinite

9. 0-20 ohms

Forgot to mention, the 10A fuse for the starter switch circuit is good.

So I’m going to open up the kill switch next, but i think I’m narrowing in on the primary issue as non-Honda starter solenoids.  The one I used and the one the previous owner installed look pretty similar, and the one I received from Honda in December looks markedly different.  But I do have a completely new battery harness and starter wiring to install anyway.

If there is something wrong with the kill switch, then that may explain why the bike cut out on me on the highway.  But I distinctly remember it going completely dark, so...don’t know.  Still very possible the starter firing itself the second time was caused by me fumbling around the solenoid in the dark and touching the wires together.  Crossing my fingers that’s all I find!

Cleaned out the kill switch, and now when it's on the resistance is steady at 6 ohms. Reliable on that side now 😁

Spoke too soon, although that switch definitely needed to be cleaned out.  Tested it some more and moved some things around and...the cable and/or junction to the key switch is bad somewhere too.  This is bad news in that it's not available anywhere.  The good news is it would completely explain the bike cutting out intermittently on me on the highway, to include losing lighting.   This is a way, way better answer than some weird, unexplainable issue with charging somewhere.

Some more good/bad news...I spliced these cables myself back in 2003, when someone tried to hotwire my bike in the middle of the night the week after I brought it home from the dealership!  Since then it looks like someone else has at least taped over it, and zip tied it down to a couple other things.  when I move where I think I repaired it I don't get much change, but when I poke and prod around the base of the key cylinder assembly, it jumps to high resistance or cuts out completely.

Since it's not available anywhere...only option is to open, inspect, and repair.  Hope it's just a simple connection issue!  

Going to post a question about this separately but, just ordered a 2004+ ignition key cable.  Maybe it'll work out, or I can at least use the cable part...

Ok, lots of progress in the last 24 hours!  After cleaning up the contacts in both the ignition key switch and handlebar start/stop switch, that circuit tests very low resistance when the starter button is engaged (around 3 ohms consistently) and cleanly switches on and off when any cut out is tripped.  All of the intermittent high resistance is gone.

I've got the new battery harness halfway in, but stuck as I seem to have lost the rubber solenoid housing thing that holds it in place.  Searching for it next, gotta be around here somewhere!  This is what I get for putting this off for so long 😄

New clutch and brake levers, plus foot pegs installed.  Just need to find this one rubber thingy and I can push the start button soon!

coming along nicely. Did you ever replace all those individual plugs with proper 4P solenoid connector? And double-up red power wires?

8 hours ago, DannoXYZ

coming along nicely. Did you ever replace all those individual plugs with proper 4P solenoid connector? And double-up red power wires?

Not yet - I do have the solenoid connector but haven't gotten to any of the soldering yet.  As it turns out the cable fixes are all ugly and suspect but were not the root cause of anything, they just appeared to be the obvious one with so much intermittent connectivity in the switches.  When I got better clips for my multimeter, I couldn't break the circuit at any of them.  Now everything is 100% when I open and close switches too.  But they need to go, I'm pretty sketched out on riding far from home with anything questionable like this again.

What did you mean double up red power wires?  The red wires in the solenoid connector, or something else?   It does have two red wires on it vs. the one in the harness: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XC7KY6S/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Oh and thanks for the how to solder correctly video!  I'm set on that as well!

DannoXYZ, 12/9/2020 at 10:42 PM

Original harness had connector for solenoid control. You'll want to restore your wiring back to factory spec by replacing those individual connectors with proper starter-solenoid connector: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XC7KY6S/

To install, cut back wiring from those individual spade connectors until you've removed all the bad splicing PO did; leaving only original 3 harness wires (G/R, Y/R and R).
[image: image.png.b6c5f0f20b957d911dc2816bf2f35058.png]

Then use proper in-line WesternUnion/lineman's splice to join new pigtail to harness. Combine the 2 red wires from pigtail together before connecting to harness's red wire. This will spread harness power-load across 2x spade-connectors instead of factory's 1 and prevent overheating.

• G -> G/R on harness
• B -> Y/R on harness
• R+R -> R on harness

BTW - DO NOT EVER use butt-splice crimp connectors. They don't meet high-reliability criteria and will fail on you (I use 50-year time-frame). All wiring-splices should be tied, soldered and adhesive heatshrink-wrapped. It's done this way in pro-motorsports, military and aerospace applications for performance, reliability and durability..

Aaaahhhh I found your instructions here!  Double up on R, that's what I thought.  Thanks again, going to try to get to this tonight, got a load of shrink wrap and everything else I need 😎

Realized I can just put some foam and rubber around the solenoid till I get the new holder in.  Good shot at optest in the next day or so...

Almost-success!  I soldered in the new solenoid connector and shoved everything in tonight.  All of the logic is correct and the bike *wants* to start but...low voltage.  9V with key on, 11.24V off.  Was hoping I'd saved it with the charger/tender but I already considered it sketchy after full discharge on its side by the highway.  But at least all the right things happen when I hit the buttons.  Light on/off, starter on off, etc.  New battery should be the last thing.  Well, that and the solenoid holder to replace the makeshift thing I did with some neoprene 😄

Installed a new battery this afternoon and the bike is 100% on starter circuit and charging 😄 All of the safeties work correctly and the battery is getting 14.1-14.2V from the new R/R when it runs.  Looks like some fork fluid came out and dripped on the left brake caliper during the tip over (fork has not been serviced since I last owned the bike in 2011) so I need to remove that caliper and check the pads before riding, and of course reinstall all of the body work.  But otherwise the bike starts very cleanly and sounds like it is ready to escape the garage!

So root causes were dirty/intermittent key and kill switches, a couple non-Honda solenoids in a row (possible contributor), and probably me pushing the solenoid lines together in the dark.  The wiring was ugly and didn't help, but that's all fixed now too.  I added some wraps of high temp electrical tape to the solenoid power lines to prevent that from ever happening if the rubber separator were to move again (anyone who's messed with the solenoid will know what I'm talking about), and of course...a Honda solenoid.  

Why were the switches bad?  A big contributor to that is the guy I sold it to in 2011 (not the previous owner who did the electrical repairs) mostly left it outside on the east coast.  The switches are pretty robust but over time, grease and dirt moved around from the pivots and ball detents above the contacts down into the contacts.  The key switch is much more protected than the kill switch which is essentially open at the top around the orange button, but the grease eventually found its way down.  Judging by forum searches where people were looking for the same part but never reporting a fix, this happens a bit.

Good news is they are fixable.  Both can be pried open and cleaned without breaking 19 year old plastic 😄  And they're such simple things I don't see much point in replacing them.

Have you tried starting it with kickstand down? That was cause of it taking off on its own when you were on side of road.

Good job ShipFixer. Multiple issues that certainly needed tidying up. As Danno mentioned throughly check the Starter Saftey Logic, your charging voltage looks good.

Salty coastal air can play havoc with exposed switch contacts and wire connections over time, Ox-Gard is an excellent product to use in this situation.

Sounds like you've sorted those issues.

Good luck, hope you've finally got all the gremlins out of your bike.

Cheers.

26 minutes ago, DannoXYZ

Have you tried starting it with kickstand down? That was cause of it taking off on its own when you were on side of road.

Yup,  all of the "switchology" is correct.  Checked it a bunch of times with the multimeter and then after the battery was installed to verify.  What I think happened is I pushed the solenoid power wires together while I was trying to figure out why I had no power in the dark, under a bridge, etc.  And the non-Honda solenoid didn't need much to make it fail (again).    It was right after a bunch of repeated re-starts when the bike was cutting out on me too, so it was probably already hot inside.

Yeah, non-OEM parts can cause lots of problems. Awesome job on repairs! 👍