Slow Right U-turns?

Like the title says, i'm just looking for some more tips for slow speed sharp right turns. I'm riding an r6 and my wrist seems to hit the tank every time and then i can't give it as much gas, etc. and it throws me off. Any suggestions? Thanks!

-Mike

[image: View Post]MDoe8, on Oct 11 2007, 10:42 PM, said:

Like the title says, i'm just looking for some more tips for slow speed sharp right turns. I'm riding an r6 and my wrist seems to hit the tank every time and then i can't give it as much gas, etc. and it throws me off. Any suggestions? Thanks!

-Mike

This is going to sound horrible................... but.

If you use a combination of rear brake, clutch, throttle and handlebars, you can do wonders.

This is how the police manage their huge harleys. Of course, they don't pay for repairs.

Of go take a MSF course or two. They will teach you this stuff too.

There is a guy somewhere near Denver who has a VFR. He is an MSF instructor. He goes very slow, very gentle and damn near drags his bags when he turns. I have watched him do lotsa cone weaves in a parking lot.

2nd on the MSF course, it help me out a lot. It's all about being smooth, a little rear brake to stabilize, couter lean at low speeds, and be sure to look to where you want to go, that's key.

i've been counterbalancing and using the rear brake, its just my stupid wrist keeps hitting the tank. Maybe i shuold use more clutch and rotate my wrist up? Going to be weird! Thanks for the tips! I'd like to meet up with that person in Denver some time!

[image: View Post]tpierce(MP), on Oct 12 2007, 12:01 AM, said:

2nd on the MSF course, it help me out a lot. It's all about being smooth, a little rear brake to stabilize, couter lean at low speeds, and be sure to look to where you want to go, that's key.

Agreed. MSF course emphasizes exaggerated head turns. It works.

I'll try over exaggerating my head turns and see how that helps

[image: View Post]MDoe8, on Oct 11 2007, 10:09 PM, said:

I'll try over exaggerating my head turns and see how that helps

There is no exaggerating. You look where you want to go and in a sharp turn that may mean the bike is outside of your peripheral vision.

Put your weight on the outside peg, it really helps.

[image: View Post]MDoe8, on Oct 11 2007, 09:42 PM, said:

Like the title says, i'm just looking for some more tips for slow speed sharp right turns. I'm riding an r6 and my wrist seems to hit the tank every time and then i can't give it as much gas, etc. and it throws me off. Any suggestions? Thanks!

-Mike

Use the same technique to navigate inside a 25ft circle...

Steady throttle...
Modulate speed with the clutch...
Turn bars almost full lock...
Hold hands up and away from tank dents...
Tap the rear brake to control turn in...

[image: Posted Image]

[image: View Post]MDoe8, on Oct 12 2007, 12:42 AM, said:

Like the title says, i'm just looking for some more tips for slow speed sharp right turns. I'm riding an r6 and my wrist seems to hit the tank every time and then i can't give it as much gas, etc. and it throws me off. Any suggestions? Thanks!

-Mike

When I first started riding again off a long layoff I picked up a DVD from an Ex-Motorcycle cop, (Jerry Palidino, www.ridelikeapro.com). It really opened my eyes to the art of riding slow. I would highly recommend picking it up.

In a nutshell you will learn how to ride in the friction zone and execute extremely tight turns and navigate well at very slow speeds. Jerry explains pretty much looking exactly where your going..etc..etc.. The friction zone as someone else has already explained. You need to keep constant pressure on the back tire wich causes your bike to want to stand up. YOu can do this by using the clutch, throttle and brake.

Try it out by just going in a straight line around 3 miles and hour. Keep the engine revved up and feather the clutch and use the back brake to keep the bike from going faster than you want. When you get that down pat and can keep the bike in a good straight line using the friction zone then you can start working on your tight turns.

One key to the tight turn is swiveling your head as far back as you can in the direction your going (DO NOT TOUCH THE FRONT BRAKE, OR YOUR GOING TO GO DOWN) then make the turn (keeping the bike in the friction zone).

Check out Jerry's site there are some demo videos. Good stuff. Of course it's mostly cruisers but the concept is the same except for us we can lean over a lot further.

[image: View Post]gbjj, on Oct 12 2007, 05:35 AM, said:

Keep the engine revved up...

Good points. Let me give a :+1: on keeping the engine speed up (and steady) and using the clutch and back brake to modulate speed. Keeping the engine speed up gives you some gyroscopic stability (same reason why the bike is stable once the wheels spin up).

Sounds like your clip-on is bent or out of position too, is the right clip-on the same distance from the tank as the left one in full lock(each way)? :unsure:

I suck at this, also.

thanks for all the advice.

next, practice. :thumbsup:

[image: View Post]MDoe8, on Oct 11 2007, 11:42 PM, said:

Like the title says, i'm just looking for some more tips for slow speed sharp right turns. I'm riding an r6 and my wrist seems to hit the tank every time and then i can't give it as much gas, etc. and it throws me off. Any suggestions? Thanks!

-Mike

Lots of good tips here, but, I would look at solving your bar/tank/hand issue, if possible. I put Heli-Bars on my VFR and liked them angled way back, I had to rotate them forward because my hands hit the tank at full lock and I had very compromised control in that situation. Once my hands were not contacting the tank, and I could put my wrists in proper ride'n position, then it was easy, just the same as any other bike with limited steering lock.

:+1: to all the posts.

You need to practice, practice, practice.

Just like others have said, the correct technique to use for low speed handling is to use a combination of rear brake, throttle, and clutch to control your speed.

Use steady throttle to keep your RPMs up. Apply the rear brake to stabilize you inputs. Control your speed with your clutch.

If you need to speed up, let the clutch out.
If you need to slow down, pull the clutch in and the rear brake will slow you down.

If at any point you are about to tip over, do not put your foot down. Instead, just let go of the clutch and give it a little bit of gas. The bike will stand itself back up.

These are the exact same techniques that motorcycle cops use to maneuver their bikes in those tight obstacle courses.



As for your hand getting pinched between the tank and bar, sounds like you need to adjust the clip-ons a bit.

I've had spacial problems in tight turns before too. I thought it had to do with being a bigger guy (6'4 and 260lbs.). But I just took the MSF rider's course last weekend and was doing low speed tight u-turns (figure 8's) with no problem by the time the instructor tested us on them. All the suggestions given already are key, and I had to counterbalance lean even more to manuever easily through the turns. A lot of weight on the outside footrest, lean that butt over to the outside of seat, and master the rear brake and friction zone. (Another nice thing about the MSF course was the reimbursement from Honda Rider's Club of America and made my bike insurance even cheaper @ $15/month).

Give this a read, its pretty damn good info on the dreased box exercise in the MSF BRC.
Lodown on the box

Thanks for all the advice! I'm actually doing pretty much everything that has been said. I'm using the rear brake, modulating speed with clutch, etc. My issue keeps on being the wrist hitting the tank. This may be a long shot but maybe my shortness has something to do with it. I'm 5'6" and my arms are at a steep angle to reach the bars. The bars are in perfect condition, not bent at all. Everything seems to be perfectly fine until i get to the point where i have to turn the bars so much that my wrist hits the tank, thats when thing sgo haywire. Thankfully I won't be riding the R6 much longer, I'm getting a vfr. I'm pretty confident that the VFR will be a lot better in this situation. Thanks again for all your help. Practice makes perfect!

-Mike

[image: View Post]MDoe8, on Oct 12 2007, 04:12 PM, said:

Thankfully I won't be riding the R6 much longer, I'm getting a vfr. I'm pretty confident that the VFR will be a lot better in this situation.
Yep, even with the VFR's bars turned all the way you'll still have room for your wrists and hands all the way around the grips. But the VFR is probably about 100#s heavier, which is going to take some getting used to in slow, tight maneuvers.

So, how much for your R6? :P Just kidding. I can't afford another bike - for now anyway! ;)

[image: View Post]mechdziner714, on Oct 12 2007, 12:34 PM, said:

Give this a read, its pretty damn good info on the dreased box exercise in the MSF BRC.
Lodown on the box

I teach MSF almost every weekend, I will again tomorrow and we will start the day with the box. Most people get it with not much problem. I have done it on lots of different bikes, including my VFR. I will admit, the VFR, or sport styled bikes with limited steer'n lock are the most difficult to do the box on. Goldwings, big BMW's are very easy even though they make it look like it should be difficult for them, it is not.

Limited steer'n lock bikes require the box to be done at a higher speed.

I have found, as has been posted, keep the speed up, counter weight, look through the turn and most important on a VFR with its very poor low speed FI response, control most of your speed with the clutch and a touch of the rear brake, not the throttle.

I bet i'm going to slow for the range of the handlebars. I'll give that a whirl and see what happens. Thanks again all! In the spring I will be doing the msf course on the vfr, i can't wait!

[image: View Post]Darth Bling, on Oct 12 2007, 12:20 PM, said:

:+1: to all the posts.

You need to practice, practice, practice.

Just like others have said, the correct technique to use for low speed handling is to use a combination of rear brake, throttle, and clutch to control your speed.

Use steady throttle to keep your RPMs up. Apply the rear brake to stabilize you inputs. Control your speed with your clutch.

If you need to speed up, let the clutch out.
If you need to slow down, pull the clutch in and the rear brake will slow you down.

If at any point you are about to tip over, do not put your foot down. Instead, just let go of the clutch and give it a little bit of gas. The bike will stand itself back up.

These are the exact same techniques that motorcycle cops use to maneuver their bikes in those tight obstacle courses.



As for your hand getting pinched between the tank and bar, sounds like you need to adjust the clip-ons a bit.


You mean videos like this?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=k2BTOOqFVk4

Make sure to watch the part in the middle. Those guys turn on a dime... Pay particular attention to the turning exercises starting around 1minute in..

I tried going a hair faster, it really really helped. I think that's been my biggest problem. Just a tad more speed and i felt much better and i could lean more instead of using more bar. Thanks all!

-Mike

I haven't seen the Box exercise before so I'm not sure what the pattern ridden is. So please excuse some basic questions.

1. Is the intention to ride in a figure 8? If not, how does one transition from the LH U turn to the RH U turn?

2. What is the "friction zone"?

3. If activating the front brake is a No No, how does one proceed with linked brakes?

[image: View Post]MDoe8, on 12 October 2007 - 12:03 AM, said:

i've been counterbalancing and using the rear brake, its just my stupid wrist keeps hitting the tank. Maybe i shuold use more clutch and rotate my wrist up? Going to be weird! Thanks for the tips! I'd like to meet up with that person in Denver some time!

I've just read down to post 5 at this point.... so far you have said you use the rear brake and counter balance and it was suggested (turn your head as far as you can to see).
I'd suggest that you re-adjust your handle bar so you don't hit your wrist on your tank. It won't change the original setting that much. I set my bikes up every time I get one so I can have full motion of the grips.

A few may not agree, but for tight,slow U turns in the street (as opposed to clipping a hairpin at a good rate) I am a bit dirt bike-ish in that I push the bike down, maintain a bit of throttle and drag the rear brake for speed control. I'll do this with my 700 lbs Valkryie as well as the viffer.

Use a wide entry line to the turn.
For a right hander, stay near the center line as long as you can, then turn in towards the apex.
It's a safer line for seeing where you're going on entry into a blind turn, and not running wide on exit.. :fing02:

[image: View Post]MadMax, on 25 September 2010 - 10:39 PM, said:

I haven't seen the Box exercise before so I'm not sure what the pattern ridden is. So please excuse some basic questions.

1. Is the intention to ride in a figure 8? If not, how does one transition from the LH U turn to the RH U turn?

2. What is the "friction zone"?

3. If activating the front brake is a No No, how does one proceed with linked brakes?


2... The friction zone is riding the clutch..... at the edge of go / no go.

3.... Even though the brakes are linked you will have more pressure applied to the rear by just using the foot brake.... just need to be soft / easy..... side note when using the front brake at any speed a good control devise not to over brake is to use less fingers.... Do you really need to use 4 fingers running through twisties.... try 2 or 1........

1..... Transition from R / L is, steer and shift weight smoothly.

Ditto on everything said earlier. I have been riding for almost 40 years, but still found this hard on a VFR. As a recent MSF instructor, the comments from others are right on.

Key points are:

• Use as much the length (width of the road before your start the turn) Last 3/4 feet
  
• Counter steer moving your butt onto the right end of the seat when turning left
  
• Do a horror movie total head turn looking on the the other side of the road
  
• Keep your weight on the countersteer peg, inside peg unweighted
  
• Trail brake if you can
  
• Better in second, control your speed by clutch control not throttle
  
• DO NOT TOUCH THE FRONT BRAKE EVER
  
• Keep the bike moving through the turn, and keep your head turned, you will be amazed at the turning circle with the bike leaned over
  
• Straighten up when you are headed where you want to go, back the the saddle
  
• To be proficident at this manoever then just reverse the technique to turn around

One last tip, don't wrestle the handlebars, lean the outside bar in the direction of the turn, and stay loose on the inside bar

Good luck

[image: View Post]MDoe8, on 11 October 2007 - 11:42 PM, said:

Like the title says, i'm just looking for some more tips for slow speed sharp right turns. I'm riding an r6 and my wrist seems to hit the tank every time and then i can't give it as much gas, etc. and it throws me off. Any suggestions? Thanks!

-Mike



RR bikes are not the best slow speed handling bikes , neither are VFR's. You should already know how before getting these bikes

Monk thanks for feedback but Q1 was really about the pattern not the technique. After the RH U turn, you come back to the entry point. Do you then do the second part of a figure 8 or something else? We don't do the box where I live but a figure 8. Fortunately I've had a licence for around 40 years too so I don't have to pass the test but I'd like to practise my VFR skills on the box test.

[image: View Post]MadMax, on 26 September 2010 - 09:36 AM, said:

Monk thanks for feedback but Q1 was really about the pattern not the technique. After the RH U turn, you come back to the entry point. Do you then do the second part of a figure 8 or something else? We don't do the box where I live but a figure 8. Fortunately I've had a licence for around 40 years too so I don't have to pass the test but I'd like to practise my VFR skills on the box test.

I haven't done the box either.... I took my beginners and advanced courses back in the 70's and don't remember all the stuff, as for as patterns go. I just use the dirt bike sitting position for super-slow turns and added the full head turn from a class somewhere in the past. But I do go to parking lots and practice 8's and other stuff, because of my daily rides where I'll go down narrow roads, and if I do a u turn I want to get ' er done quickly........

:+1: :+1:

Another quality thread on the forums. :cool:

Overall some great advice and tips from everyone.

[image: View Post]MadMax, on 26 September 2010 - 09:36 AM, said:

Monk thanks for feedback but Q1 was really about the pattern not the technique. After the RH U turn, you come back to the entry point. Do you then do the second part of a figure 8 or something else? We don't do the box where I live but a figure 8. Fortunately I've had a licence for around 40 years too so I don't have to pass the test but I'd like to practise my VFR skills on the box test.



The box a 20 x 40 area to complete the figure 8. Start by riding in a straight line towards the right hand end of the box and about 5 feet before the end start the turn to do a 180 turn and when complete head to the other end of the box like a teardrop to the top corner where you entered. Then do a second 180 and head towards the opposite side where you first started the turn.

This will give you the figure 8 and continue until complete.

if you want to practice the turn in a parking lot, get a set of 10 x 20 ft wide parking spaces and you have the box you want to test on. A diagram for the path of travel in the MSF course is attached, and the box shown for the manoeuver

Let me know if that helps.


Mike

Attached thumbnail(s)

• [image: Attached Image: the box.JPG]

Here it is almost the same, only you have to finish on the same side (right) of the road you started the excercise.
[image: Posted Image]

[image: View Post]V4 Rosso, on 27 September 2010 - 06:59 AM, said:

Here it is almost the same, only you have to finish on the same side (right) of the road you started the excercise.
[image: Posted Image]



Which may defeat the purpose of the 180 turn? ;-)

BTW Nice 3D diagram.....

Great diagrams thanks guys. It's all perfectly clear now.

[image: Posted Image]
Serpentine right hander

This is yours truly back in 2003 when I ran funeral escort here in Portland, which I did for about 10 years. We used to have practice sessions where we'd take the bikes through many different courses so that we could get used to how the 'state of the art' KZ1000P handles. :laughing6-hehe:

In this exercise, I was leaving a gate formed by the two cones in the foreground, and was performing a full-lock right-left to go through the two cones at the upper right. This serpentine usually had six gates.

In fact, the KZ-P is a great low-speed bike. It has a low center of gravity, wide handlebars, and a short wheel base. Once I learned to drag the floorboards, I began to do it all the time just for fun. I got the nickname 'Sparky' due to that habit.

As you can see from the photo, I still hadn't quite learned to turn my head ALL the way round to where I wanted to go. Seriously, you need to drop your chin to your shoulder. If you look at what's directly in front of your tire you're going to crash. Low speed turns are all about knowing your friction point, using ONLY the rear brake, counterbalancing the weight of the bike, and looking where you want to go.

Oh yeah, and it's more fun to practice with a bike that's not yours! :)

Just drag the rear brake and turn your head while in the gray area (friction zone) and the bike will follow.

One additional thing to add is the RPMS should be at a constant, steady pace. If you listen to Police motor guys you can hear which ones are really smooth riders. The throttle is maintained at a constant RPM range throughout the exercise. All they do is turn their heads and the handle bars...the brake clutch and throttle are set as they enter the exercise.

here I am competing in my first rodeo last April



[image: Posted Image]