Now that the effects from last year's wreck are starting to subside, I find myself starting to hang off the bike in turns (which is new to me.) I did NOT practice that at TMAC since I don't know the roads well enough (and didn't want to push my luck with the wife who didn't want me to go racing around the mountains with you guys.) Anyway, when I switch sides in quick corners, I find myself upsetting the chassis just a little and the bike wiggles. My knee is on the tank, my butt is off the seat, and my weight is not on the bars... so what am I missing? That little wiggle in the back end of the bike is not bad, but I feel like I can make it stop if I knew what I was messing up.
As usual, thanks in advance for the help :fing02:
Work on your smooooth. Could also be a suspension issue. You're a big(tall) guy, you might be alright by just scooching over a little on the seat, then leaning your upper body forward and into the turn. Try it out.
Will, I suggest you take a school to help hone your street skills, not track skills!
Most people never ride fast enough to Need to hang off the bike on the street and it's a waste of time most of the time. I rarely move off my seat unless I'm running extreme speeds (for me) as it's just not needed for most riders at moderate Paces .
Smoothness and knowledge are key
Sure there are times when some track skills can help, but you sure don't need them to be a competent, quick & safe rider. :fing02:
As far as I'm concerned the two biggest factors in confidence and smoothness are:
- Looking as far froward through every turn(that means through any rider or cage in front of you).
- Counter Steering ! the bike will do just about anything, it is Only our inputs that screw it up!!!
Basically if you just sit on the bike and not lean one way or the other (stay perpendicular to the bike) and use CS you will be amazed just how easy it all is. Add looking through every turn and watch out, a competent rider might just pop out.
Hanging off usually slows your ability to do weight transitions fast enough in left/right type situations and casually upset the bike more than help. You can be just as effective (on the Street) by leaning just your upper body to the low side and forward and these body transitions can be accomplished much faster and smoother then hanging your Butt off the seat. :beer:
BaileyrockWill, I suggest you take a school to help hone your street skills, not track skills!Most people never ride fast enough to Need to hang off the bike on the street and it's a waste of time most of the time. I rarely move off my seat unless I'm running extreme speeds (for me) as it's just not needed for most riders at moderate Paces .
Smoothness and knowledge are key
Sure there are times when some track skills can help, but you sure don't need them to be a competent, quick & safe rider. :fing02:
As far as I'm concerned the two biggest factors in confidence and smoothness are:
- Looking as far froward through every turn(that means through any rider or cage in front of you).
- Counter Steering ! the bike will do just about anything, it is Only our inputs that screw it up!!!
Basically if you just sit on the bike and not lean one way or the other (stay perpendicular to the bike) and use CS you will be amazed just how easy it all is. Add looking through every turn and watch out, a competent rider might just pop out.
Hanging off usually slows your ability to do weight transitions fast enough in left/right type situations and casually upset the bike more than help. You can be just as effective (on the Street) by leaning just your upper body to the low side and forward and these body transitions can be accomplished much faster and smoother then hanging your Butt off the seat. :beer:
............ :cool: Most of the time, I simply slide over to one side, get my upper body out over the inside handlebar, head up toward the inside mirror, inside footpeg weighted. Countersteering............. :fing02: About all you need on the street Will. The lighter the bike, the more your body weight changes it. 6th Gen VFRs transition really well, especially given their weight.....Practice smoothness......you will be amazed. I've graduated Mitzie to body shifting more...her smoothness on flat, non-cambered, 90 degree country roads is improving every weekend............. :fing02:
OK, I should have qualified this... I'm not hanging off like Jeremy or anything like that. I am nowhere near that level... Just moving my butt to one side of the seat or the other, getting my torso over the tank, and my head near the mirror that's on the inside of the turn. I am going through corners faster doing this, but when I move to the other side, sometimes it's not smooth... most times it is. I cannot figure out why sometimes I mess it up. Maybe I will have to just keep experimenting to figure it out, but I thought I would ask.
BR - I ALWAYS need schoolin wink.gif
I am fairly smooth most of the time... I just need to figure out this annoying little thing.
I'm far from being an expert, but one thing I've learned during this t-mac while riding behind some MUCH faster guys, is to have very little if any weight on your but. 90% of your weight should be supported by your legs. That way the transition is much smoother as you "simply" shift from one leg to the other w/o having to shimmy your assets on the seat. This is only applicable in very rapid transitions and for a brief periods of time, after which my untrained legs were not cooperating any more. But, while they were, it was pretty smooth (by my standards). Body position as you have described.
Hope this makes sense.
houseOK, I should have qualified this... I'm not hanging off like Jeremy or anything like that. I am nowhere near that level... Just moving my butt to one side of the seat or the other, getting my torso over the tank, and my head near the mirror that's on the inside of the turn. I am going through corners faster doing this, but when I move to the other side, sometimes it's not smooth... most times it is. I cannot figure out why sometimes I mess it up. Maybe I will have to just keep experimenting to figure it out, but I thought I would ask. BR - I ALWAYS need schoolin wink.gif
I am fairly smooth most of the time... I just need to figure out this annoying little thing.
Sounds good, I would suggest not to focus on the butt movement part as that takes the most effort, muscle groups and time and if that timing is off so is the transition and smoothness. Really just forget worrying about you butt movement whatsoever, it will simplify your riding and ability to transition quicker on the street. :fing02:
It's almost a natural move when you move your upper body forward & down towards the inside mirror that your turn side butt cheek will be weighted as much as it needs w/o thought so forget about it!.
Again if your not looking as far forward as possible and if you ever focus on the outside edge of a turn you've screwed it up. That's every damn turn after turn. It only takes one time to let you vision focus right in front of the bike instead of through the turn and everything goes to shite and you 1000% more likely to drive off the road at your focus point.
I think it is that training of the brain & eyes to focus out as far as possible that is the single biggest factor in any riders advancement in riding ability. I get it right about 99% of the time, but the only times I've come close to crashing lately is during that failed 1% where I loose my vision focus. I can relate EVERY close call in a turn to this issue(not looking through the turn) it is the key to Smoothness, Speed, Safety and Survival. :biggrin:
The keys to not messing up the bike during transitions are to keep your butt off the seat (as Rice said), you should be sliding over the seat, not sitting on it, all your weight should be on your legs. The other thing is you may be supporting weight on your arms, if so, when you move your body you will inadvertently counter steer the bike.
Another issue most people have when starting to hang off is they are crossed up, which eliminates the benefits of hanging off, while still adding the complexity. Make sure to concentrate on moving your upper body down and try to kiss your mirror. Keep your outside arm loose and rest it on the tank. Lean forward so your chest is near the tank. You can do this with your butt planted in the seat so you can work on one thing at a time.
Like Bailey said, the upper body position will probably do more for you than hanging off.
My 2¢ here:
I'm not a big believer in hanging off on the street. Shifting your body from side to side really upsets the bike. Maybe flick a knee out and a slight butt shift, but that's about it. One thing I have really concentrated on lately that seems to make a big difference (and I picked this up from the MotoGP guys) is staying low on the bike in the turns. In effect it does the same thing as hanging off. You hang off to move the CG of combined rider/motorcycle unit into a more desirable position. If you lower your torso in the turns, it will have a similar affect. Don't sit bolt up right in the turns with your arms stiff. Stay low so you're just looking over the mirrors and keep your arms bent and in tight. Press against the tank with your outside knee.
We all know about counter steering. It will blow your mind how much you can steer with your knees. Get on a good stretch of straight road. Get the bike up to speed and let go of the bars. Then as the bike is coasting down, take turns pressing against the tank side with one knee then the other. You'd be surprised how much you can move the bike around this way. Reg Pridmore teaches this so much that he says if the inside of your thighs are killing you after one of his schools you didn't do it right.
Proper cornering is no one thing. It's putting the whole package together. Each of us have our own unique "package" due to our sizes, body shapes, flexibility, etc. What works for one person may not work for another.
Great tips above, everyone. Thanks for sharing them with us!
I never hang off the bike but do move my upper body a bit lower and inside the turn. It's rare for me to shift my butt around on the seat more than 6" or so, but when I do I try to get it done well before the turn, and then very quickly if there's a left-right or right-left transition.
Of course I am far from being an expert in this area, but the one thing I'd add is to make sure you're steady on the throttle during the transitional movements. (And I'm sure Will is doing that, so this is more for folks just starting to lean/hang while cornering.) The rear wheel will get squirrelly when you close the throttle as the bike checks up a bit (weight and traction moving mostly to the front wheel), especially if you're moving around much on top at the same time.
RiceI'm far from being an expert, but one thing I've learned during this t-mac while riding behind some MUCH faster guys, is to have very little if any weight on your but. 90% of your weight should be supported by your legs. That way the transition is much smoother as you "simply" shift from one leg to the other w/o having to shimmy your assets on the seat. This is only applicable in very rapid transitions and for a brief periods of time, after which my untrained legs were not cooperating any more. But, while they were, it was pretty smooth (by my standards). Body position as you have described.Hope this makes sense.
I very much agree with carrying as much body weight with your legs as possible during quick left/right type transitions or really any quick turning. When I'm trying to haul butt, I'll do just that, press into both pegs unloading my butt. This feels like you've dropped 100 lbs of weight of the bike because it moves so much freer between your legs during quick transitions! :biggrin:
Little to no weight on your arms & wrist (because your legs & torso are carrying it) also helps tremendously in allowing you to FEEL the front and make softer/lighter inputs.
But again I think these are a little more advanced techniques and should follow the rider ability to "look thru the turn & CS" which I think are the basic two foundation blocks to skilled riding! :fing02:
I gotta' go with learning to get your body weight and head out over the inside bar and mirror first, with weight on the inside peg, and fully looking through the turn...... :fing02: It really gets too complicated to start trying to do everything at once......... :fing02: Once you start getting smooth with these moves, you'll find yourself "instinctively" sliding around on the seat eventually. Getting your sight line, and upper body position right makes a fantastic cornering difference by themselves in quick, right, left, transitioning type twisty roads. After getting the position right, next step needs to be the timing of when to change position................2 cents from the "Old Slow Guy".............. :biggrin:
skuuter trashI gotta' go with learning to get your body weight and head out over the inside bar and mirror first, with weight on the inside peg, and fully looking through the turn...... :fing02: It really gets too complicated to start trying to do everything at once......... :biggrin: Once you start getting smooth with these moves, you'll find yourself "instinctively" sliding around on the seat eventually. Getting your sight line, and upper body position right makes a fantastic cornering difference by themselves in quick, right, left, transitioning type twisty roads. After getting the position right, next step needs to be the timing of when to change position...
+1. When learning to lean off the bike, I started very gradually. But even then I couldn't believe the difference it made. I'll lean off a bit more now, but it took some courage and getting used to. And while I still don't lean off too much, it is starting to feel more natural to me.
TimC+1. When learning to lean off the bike, I started very gradually. But even then I couldn't believe the difference it made. I'll lean off a bit more now, but it took some courage and getting used to. And while I still don't lean off too much, it is starting to feel more natural to me.
Tim, do try to CS or just lean or both?
I have enjoyed reading this thread!! :biggrin:
I really wish they had a motorcycle simulator!! Wouldn't that be FUN???
Skuuter is a freak! :laugh:
NicoleSkuuter is a freak! :laugh:
....... :blink:......probably......... :blush:...you've caused us to disrupt a serious riding form thread......... :laugh:
:laugh: All this talk about cornering properly makes me think of how much fun it is to take the Viffer down twisty roads... and being stuck in Charlotte all summer w/o the Viffer is giving me withdrawals!! :laugh:
Ditto on that your legs should be supporting the weight in these situations, if in the brief space and time you have ina switchback you're:
1. Lifting your weight off the seat
2. Shifting to the other side of the bike and planting your other cheek on the seat
3. Replacing the weight on said cheek.
...you will probably cause that wobbliness. It's all in the legs. If the transition from one corner to the next is less abrupt, you'll have plenty of time for the lazy man's version... otherwise... work those quadriceps!!!
Emmm... the term "butt movements" has me feeling a little queezy... :laugh:
AuspañolDitto on that your legs should be supporting the weight in these situations, if in the brief space and time you have ina switchback you're:1. Lifting your weight off the seat
2. Shifting to the other side of the bike and planting your other cheek on the seat
3. Replacing the weight on said cheek.
...you will probably cause that wobbliness. It's all in the legs. If the transition from one corner to the next is less abrupt, you'll have plenty of time for the lazy man's version... otherwise... work those quadriceps!!!
Emmm... the term "butt movements" has me feeling a little queezy... :laugh:
For street riding in Tennessee, carrying your weight on your legs on some roads really can wear you out. Some of these roads are tight transitions for miles. A good "road riding system" makes more sense than "road racing systems"............ :laugh:
Wish I could help here. I feel like I'm hanging off the bike and I shift on the seat. But BR said to me at a T-mac stop, "you're like me on the street and do more leaning than hanging off." Works for me and I do ok. But there is a difference in what I'm actually doing and what it feels like I'm doing. :laugh:
I'll be in a good position to do some track schools in the next year or two. :laugh:
jeremy556The keys to not messing up the bike during transitions are to keep your butt off the seat (as Rice said), you should be sliding over the seat, not sitting on it, all your weight should be on your legs. The other thing is you may be supporting weight on your arms, if so, when you move your body you will inadvertently counter steer the bike.Another issue most people have when starting to hang off is they are crossed up, which eliminates the benefits of hanging off, while still adding the complexity. Make sure to concentrate on moving your upper body down and try to kiss your mirror. Keep your outside arm loose and rest it on the tank. Lean forward so your chest is near the tank. You can do this with your butt planted in the seat so you can work on one thing at a time.
Like Bailey said, the upper body position will probably do more for you than hanging off.
Exactly what I was going to say.
houseOK, I should have qualified this... I'm not hanging off like Jeremy or anything like that. I am nowhere near that level... Just moving my butt to one side of the seat or the other, getting my torso over the tank, and my head near the mirror that's on the inside of the turn. I am going through corners faster doing this, but when I move to the other side, sometimes it's not smooth... most times it is. I cannot figure out why sometimes I mess it up. Maybe I will have to just keep experimenting to figure it out, but I thought I would ask. BR - I ALWAYS need schoolin wink.gif
I am fairly smooth most of the time... I just need to figure out this annoying little thing.
Counter steering is always the key. But when I started riding faster I never felt my body was positioned just right so there would be some odd feel during transition. To smooth this out and make consistent transitions I began to use Jason Pridmore body steering techniques. Weighting the inside peg and pressing my outside knee into the tank as if trying to help the bike turn in. I think this creates an consistant body position to control the bike and not feed any monkey motion into the steering inputs. I pretty much just slide to one side with no thought of putting a knee down. Okay sometimes i think about it. But again, counter steering and trusting you tires is the key. :laugh: laguna.gif
Another countersteering "fact".........I know this primarily addresses VFRs and riding bikes leaning toward sport types, but in case someone owns more than one type bike, or thinking of owning another type.........
Cruisers, Gold Wings, etc., that place you in a fully upright riding position with a tendency to "plant" you in a seat closer to the rear wheel of the bike, feet farther forward, require the use of lots of countersteering as the primary tool for transitioning tight twisties. The longer wheelbases, and more relaxed fork rakes also, to some degree add to countersteering importance.
Choppers (Oh no, not "THOSE" things... tongue.gif ) put you in a situation that almost entirely reduces you to countersteering being your only "tool for twisties", requiring a lot of countersteering input, for a small amount of gain......... :laugh:
In full agreement: for street riding, there is usually no need for hanging off the bike. Upper body lean, a little countersteering and perhaps a slight butt shuffle across should suffice.
I believe however that the original enquiry was about the wobble when he does feel the need to hang off and is doing so through s-bends... I'm not condoning hooligan riding styles and knee-scraping in town or on commuting slabs... just addressing his enquiry in the purest sense of his uncertainties... if he is going to hang off... it's all in the legs. Both Jeremy and BR explain this in greater detail than I well before my post.
We've all been on twisty mountain roads where hanging off is commonly practiced and most of you VFRD veterans can be seen doing so in the MC meet pics posted up around here... at least on the more spirited rides... this doesn't mean to say that we're all hot heads and squids, but occassionaly and in the right circumstances we like to test our metal...
I for one have never put a knee down, never scraped a knee pad, 'cause I don't even have leathers... I have two textile suits.
Edited June 7, 2008 by AuspañolWOW, thanks for all the advice!! I made an important discovery yesterday... it was like a light bulb going off. I was taking Butch's bike back to him (done with this round of mods,) and he has lowered his bike a bit. That coupled with my new riding stance had me whipping through the turns on the way to work about 5 MPH faster than usual. I didn't want to push too hard (I wasn't on my bike after all,) but I noticed how much more confidence I had with a lower center of gravity. I am about 6'2" and just naturally throw the VFR center of gravity up there a bit (Jeremy probably knows what I am talking about.) So today I worked really hard at getting my center of gravity lower (by following the posted advice.) It definately made a difference. I have been just sitting way up on the seat with my head in the clouds and leaning... now I feel like I just slip through a turn instead of dragging the bike around a corner... the difference is HUGE smile.gif I feel like I can keep up with the Vespa riders now :laugh:
houseWOW, thanks for all the advice!! I made an important discovery yesterday... it was like a light bulb going off. I was taking Butch's bike back to him (done with this round of mods,) and he has lowered his bike a bit. That coupled with my new riding stance had me whipping through the turns on the way to work about 5 MPH faster than usual. I didn't want to push too hard (I wasn't on my bike after all,) but I noticed how much more confidence I had with a lower center of gravity. I am about 6'2" and just naturally throw the VFR center of gravity up there a bit (Jeremy probably knows what I am talking about.) So today I worked really hard at getting my center of gravity lower (by following the posted advice.) It definately made a difference. I have been just sitting way up on the seat with my head in the clouds and leaning... now I feel like I just slip through a turn instead of dragging the bike around a corner... the difference is HUGE smile.gif I feel like I can keep up with the Vespa riders now :laugh:
That's great Will,
Lowering your CG is the fastest way to quicken turn in, increase stability and confidence. The easiest & smoothest way to lower you CG is with your upper body. You don't really even need to lean towards the inside of a turn, if you just sit still in the seat but lean forward you will do two things: unlock your elbows(unweighted arms) and lower your CG. You should feel an instant improvement in feel and confidence. Adding a lean towards the inside(along with leaning forward) will lower the CG even more and the lower the CG the easier it is to transition the bike! :laugh:
Hanging off with you butt is an excellent way to achieve dropping of the CG, BUT it takes much more coordination, muscle groups and time to do so and if you are not proficient at it you are More likely to upset the bike then help. This is why I suggest most riders(street) focus only on upper body movement as it achieves similar results, is easier to learn and can be done smoother with less practice then hanging off.
Once you become proficient in this technique (UPPER BODY) weighting, then you can add lower body (advanced technique) leaning, if needed!
Baileyrock
houseWOW, thanks for all the advice!! I made an important discovery yesterday... it was like a light bulb going off. I was taking Butch's bike back to him (done with this round of mods,) and he has lowered his bike a bit. That coupled with my new riding stance had me whipping through the turns on the way to work about 5 MPH faster than usual. I didn't want to push too hard (I wasn't on my bike after all,) but I noticed how much more confidence I had with a lower center of gravity. I am about 6'2" and just naturally throw the VFR center of gravity up there a bit (Jeremy probably knows what I am talking about.) So today I worked really hard at getting my center of gravity lower (by following the posted advice.) It definately made a difference. I have been just sitting way up on the seat with my head in the clouds and leaning... now I feel like I just slip through a turn instead of dragging the bike around a corner... the difference is HUGE smile.gif I feel like I can keep up with the Vespa riders now :blush:
That's great Will,
Lowering your CG is the fastest way to quicken turn in, increase stability and confidence. The easiest & smoothest way to lower you CG is with your upper body. You don't really even need to lean towards the inside of a turn, if you just sit still in the seat but lean forward you will do two things: unlock your elbows(unweighted arms) and lower your CG. You should feel an instant improvement in feel and confidence. Adding a lean towards the inside(along with leaning forward) will lower the CG even more and the lower the CG the easier it is to transition the bike! :laugh:
Hanging off with you butt is an excellent way to achieve dropping of the CG, BUT it takes much more coordination, muscle groups and time to do so and if you are not proficient at it you are More likely to upset the bike then help. This is why I suggest most riders(street) focus only on upper body movement as it achieves similar results, is easier to learn and can be done smoother with less practice then hanging off.
Once you become proficient in this technique (UPPER BODY) weighting, then you can add lower body (advanced technique) leaning!
Best Street Riding answer so far............. :laugh: ...."The Old Fart".......... :blink:
will, at your size and assuming weight to go with it, have you upgraded your suspension? while all said previously is correct, if your suspension is setup factory, it will be quite difficult to keep the bike settled as you ratchet up the speed.
turtlecreekwill, at your size and assuming weight to go with it, have you upgraded your suspension? while all said previously is correct, if your suspension is setup factory, it will be quite difficult to keep the bike settled as you ratchet up the speed.
+1
Im upgrading my suspension as I type.. F4 rebuilt/sprung rear shock... As soon as it is ready i will order new front springs n valves..
Didnt like the weeble wobble effect swinging from a left to right curve with no strait to settle the bike on the last Skuuter crawl.. If you watch my video "Skuuter finds the twisties" you will notice the bobble... Right curve then transition to a left i run inside almost blowing the curve from the weeble wobble of the bike between turns...
Yikes 1 of my biggest gripes is people blowing corners and i almost did.. And yes i am very used to very twisty roads so that wasnt the issue....
turtlecreekwill, at your size and assuming weight to go with it, have you upgraded your suspension? while all said previously is correct, if your suspension is setup factory, it will be quite difficult to keep the bike settled as you ratchet up the speed.
Nope... I'm all stock... haven't adjusted anything yet. My friend down the street works for Traxxion Dynamics and offered to tweak the stock settings for me if I can drop by the shop. I think I will start by letting his team look me and the bike over, dial in some good settings, and then see what aftermarked suspension stuff the reccommend. I gotta pay Dymos2000 for a set of Lasers, then I can put some cash into the suspension. I don't know if Butch had suspension work done, but I loved the way his bike rode. Hard to believe that I have put in over 21,000 miles on VFRs and never touched the suspension... but that's how it's played out.
Now you can say... "Yeah, I know that guy! He rides much better now that he changed the settings!" smile.gif
Watch out Vespa riders... I just might pass you out on the road :rolleyes:
house
turtlecreekwill, at your size and assuming weight to go with it, have you upgraded your suspension? while all said previously is correct, if your suspension is setup factory, it will be quite difficult to keep the bike settled as you ratchet up the speed.
Nope... I'm all stock... haven't adjusted anything yet. My friend down the street works for Traxxion Dynamics and offered to tweak the stock settings for me if I can drop by the shop. I think I will start by letting his team look me and the bike over, dial in some good settings, and then see what aftermarked suspension stuff the reccommend. I gotta pay Dymos2000 for a set of Lasers, then I can put some cash into the suspension. I don't know if Butch had suspension work done, but I loved the way his bike rode. Hard to believe that I have put in over 21,000 miles on VFRs and never touched the suspension... but that's how it's played out.
Now you can say... "Yeah, I know that guy! He rides much better now that he changed the settings!" smile.gif
Watch out Vespa riders... I just might pass you out on the road :biggrin:
I think you said the other bike was lowered. Lowering a bike gives it less leverage to work the suspension. When the sprung weight drops to a lower point between the axle centers, it effectively "stiffens" the bike, making it seem to have firmer suspension. Raising the sprung weight gives it more leverage to work the suspension, making the bike seem "softer". A bike that's lowered transfers weight less than stock or raised. The lowered bike probably seemed firmer for your size. Roughly, once you transfer the swingarm to the point of parallel to the road, weight transfer stops....this being the point of maximum traction, especially "rear bite". Lowered bikes handle great...to a point. A stiffer sprung bike with the rear raised will transfer weight better/longer for a better maximum traction point with a large rider. In a nutshell....you can go faster because the suspension can drive the rear tire into the road on acceleration harder/longer before the maximum traction point is reached.
That being said..."most riders" never reach twisty road speeds that require that much transfer............. :rolleyes:
No doubt a properly set-up suspension with at least the right rate springs can make a huge difference in how our bikes handle(any bike really), but a VFR with all it's stock components in good working order can go amazingly quick especially if your a smooth rider.
I think it's wiser to develop riding skills first before spending money on suspension Mods or power increases.
A skilled rider can ride most anything quick, the best set-up bike in the world can only be ridden as well as the riders skill level allows. :biggrin:
Develop the rider first, that helps every aspect of the riders experience including survival. :unsure:
Will, I would guess you are using too much upper body to make the transistion. This puts unwanted input into the front end of the bike. Use your lower body (quads & abdominal) to shift the weight over and dont pull up w/ your arms. If your doing it right your quads will be sore after a long day of twisties. Like BR says its not really necessary to do this on the street but its a good skill to have when needed.
BaileyrockNo doubt a properly set-up suspension with at least the right rate springs can make a huge difference in how our bikes handle(any bike really), but a VFR with all it's stock components in good working order can go amazingly quick especially if your a smooth rider. I think it's wiser to develop riding skills first before spending money on suspension Mods or power increases.
A skilled rider can ride most anything quick, the best set-up bike in the world can only be ridden as well as the riders skill level allows. :biggrin:
Develop the rider first, that helps every aspect of the riders experience including survival. :unsure:
Yep.....a "bad", or inexperienced rider on the latest, greatest Ohlins stuff out there matched to his weight, etc. on a CBR race replica bike would do good to keep up with a "good" or experienced rider on a 250 Ninja on super tight, technical roads..............yes, the rider is the most important part that needs to be dialed in............... :fing02:
This information has been most helpful.
Pointing your inside shoulder into the turn
Putting your head right up there with the mirrors
Countersteering for sure
Thanks for all your insights.
If they are super tight back to back right-lefts (such as War Woman Rd), don't worry about weight shifting. Just stay centered on the bike and counter steer it. Unless you are super in shape, you really don't have time to be shifting from side to side. War Woman is an excellent example. Another road where this applies is Old Browntown Rd off of Roy Road east of Ellijay, GA if any of you know that area. It is a first gear, super-moto type road. The VFR eats it up.
One last thing on bike set up: Is your bike rear heavy? 99% of Japanese street bike respond favorably to having the rear end raised. This applies to the VFR, SV650, and ZRX1100/1200. I've owned them all.
A good way to check your front to rear balance is to read your chicken strips. If you're taking the rear tire all the way to the edge and you still have a one inch chicken strip on the front tire, you're way too low in the rear. The difference in chicken strip width between the front and rear tires should only be about a quarter of an inch for a properly balanced bike. Jack the rear end up until the front chicken strip is only about a quarter to an eighth of inch less than the rear chicken strip.
Late to the party here but I like this particular video on the subject - there are quite a few. The older I get, the harder it becomes to constantly push myself out of the seat constantly over the course of a long day of riding hard. I don't so much "hang off" these days as much as "scoot a cheek". It's more of a slide if anything but I never lose contact with the seat. As the video below suggests, it's more about the upper body and head position. This guy also does some good videos on trail braking, which I have also used to reduce my lean angles. I find my 2014 VFR to require more "incentive" to get it transitioning into and between corners - at least compared to my R1, but even my older Sprint ST's felt more agile. I find myself using my outside leg and arm for leverage more - again this video covers some of that as well and underscores some of the differences at the track.
Brilliant advice from the community as usual. If I understand the OP correctly, the issue is about how to transition hung off one side to the other quickly. I'll leave well alone the question of whether hanging off is necessary or desirable on the road; I do sometimes and on rough surfaces it often helps stabilise the chassis provided the legs are carrying the body weight.
For a quick transition, bring the hung off leg back to the tank, grip the tank with both legs and slide the butt to the other side while also repositioning the upper body keeping the arms relaxed, then drop the leg on the side you've transitioned too. Tank grips really help. Ditto all the other points about keeping the CofG low.
Track training really is to be recommended but for a good read try the Haynes book 'Performance Riding Techniques by Andy Ibbott ( Foreword by Keith Code). ISBN 978 1 84425 697 6. Hope that helps