Take a listen and tell me what it is.
I think it is CCT maybe a bad valve (hope not)?
It doesn't make any noise till it warms up.
So all you VFR Doctors out there need your help.
It is a 2003 with 26,000 miles.
CCT noise
Really don't think it's a CCt.
It makes the sound just after you release the throttle, NOT continuously.
Question is: What moves after the open throttle is released and not when idling?
[image: View Post]marbs34, on Jul 2 2008, 10:18 PM, said:
Really don't think it's a CCt.
It makes the sound just after you release the throttle, NOT continuously.
Question is: What moves after the open throttle is released and not when idling?
Well sometimes it will make the noise while idling. It isn't consistent. Thats what gives me hope that it may be an easy fix. :mellow:
[image: View Post]itwrx, on Jul 3 2008, 12:24 AM, said:
[image: View Post]marbs34, on Jul 2 2008, 10:18 PM, said:
Really don't think it's a CCt.
It makes the sound just after you release the throttle, NOT continuously.
Question is: What moves after the open throttle is released and not when idling?
Well sometimes it will make the noise while idling. It isn't consistent. Thats what gives me hope that it may be an easy fix. :mellow:
Sounds like the tensioner is going bad and letting the cam chain rattle.. when you release the throttle the tensioner is going slack and you get to hear the slight rattling noise, my old VF750 did the same thing and when giving it gas the tensioner would keep the cam chain taught . It will not be consistant until the tensioner stops totaly working and then the cam chain will be grinding away at the cam chain guides due to the amount of slack in the cam chain.
Ya thats your cct. My race bike makes that noise when I need to adjust my manual one. If you've ever watched a chain when a bike is on a dyno you will know why it is doing that when the throttle is closed.
[image: View Post]itwrx, on Jul 3 2008, 12:09 AM, said:
Take a listen and tell me what it is.
I think it is CCT maybe a bad valve (hope not)?
It doesn't make any noise till it warms up.
So all you VFR Doctors out there need your help.
It is a 2003 with 26,000 miles.
CCT noise
yep that the front cct, its just the shaft oscilating, it wont fail. I installed a brand new one and 5,000 my later it starting making some noise again.
The only success i've had is more pressure to quieten, some say if you remove the plunger metal cap it solves. I prefer tighter pressure
Mine started making a real racket around 23,000 mile, i didnt change until 30,000 mile. You couldnt see a damn thing wrong with it out of the bike though.
Get a long screw driver - put the handle to your ear and the tip to various places on the engine and listen. If the noise is the CCT, you should hear a similar noise all the time, just a different pitch and intensity as the engine speed changes. From you clip, the noise may be as simple as the PAIR reed valves doing their thing...
[image: View Post]03vfrrider, on Jul 3 2008, 06:29 AM, said:
Get a long screw driver - put the handle to your ear and the tip to various places on the engine and listen. If the noise is the CCT, you should hear a similar noise all the time, just a different pitch and intensity as the engine speed changes. From you clip, the noise may be as simple as the PAIR reed valves doing their thing...
Well I know it cant be the PAIR reed because I don' have any. If it is my CCT should I replace the chain along with the guides? Or just the CCT?
Does anyone make a after market CCT that works better? :unsure:
[image: View Post]itwrx, on Jul 3 2008, 03:56 PM, said:
[image: View Post]03vfrrider, on Jul 3 2008, 06:29 AM, said:
Get a long screw driver - put the handle to your ear and the tip to various places on the engine and listen. If the noise is the CCT, you should hear a similar noise all the time, just a different pitch and intensity as the engine speed changes. From you clip, the noise may be as simple as the PAIR reed valves doing their thing...
Well I know it cant be the PAIR reed because I don' have any. If it is my CCT should I replace the chain along with the guides? Or just the CCT?
Does anyone make a after market CCT that works better? :unsure:
I've heard of some bikes that have gear driven cams. :goofy: Sorry couldn't resist. :biggrin:
[image: View Post]itwrx, on Jul 3 2008, 05:56 PM, said:
[image: View Post]03vfrrider, on Jul 3 2008, 06:29 AM, said:
Get a long screw driver - put the handle to your ear and the tip to various places on the engine and listen. If the noise is the CCT, you should hear a similar noise all the time, just a different pitch and intensity as the engine speed changes. From you clip, the noise may be as simple as the PAIR reed valves doing their thing...
Well I know it cant be the PAIR reed because I don' have any. If it is my CCT should I replace the chain along with the guides? Or just the CCT?
Does anyone make a after market CCT that works better? :unsure:
Nothin wrong with the chain or guides , its the cct. atleast i've not heard of any bad
No thats incorrect you wont hear the noise all the time on the front vfr tensioner, generally with a noisey tensioner, the vfr will start cold and not make any noise , after a few minutes running it will begin the duck klatter, and that usually subsides after several miles.
If you advance the tensioner it will quelch the noise , I did that with my 30,000 mile tentioner, and had to do it with a brand new tentioner, that had just begun some very slight noise after 5,000 mile. The front one is usually the issue
Front cct. bet you your bike, on it.
The sound is the chain slapping the guide, from not enough tension, on decel. DO RED DOGS FIX. Don't buy new ones.
Rivcyko, follow me here Decel? I'm talking at idle
IMO, there 2 different noises related to the cam chain, and thats chain noise itself, or CCT shaft oscillation ( this is the Duck klack noise) . Even your friend Redog talks about the shaft play of the tentioner and noise.
But what hes done with the spring, forces more tention, theres no difference doing my trick which also adds more tention and its far easier than removing the tensioner. I changed the intermittant duck klatter to an intermittant knock, chains dont knock, this is the shaft in the CCT knocking.
I didnt try my trick until that CCT had 30,000 miles though, so it had been klacking intermittantly for well over 10,000 mile and may have created damage, But what I did notice, you talk about a vibration free VFR in Vtech, snugg that front chain makes a huge difference.
But because of the cct shaft intermittant knock. I had no other choice than to replace. The new tentioner took care of the noise, but I gained back that high rpm vtech vibration. Any way, 7,000 mile later this new tensioner is begiinng to make noise. I ve already allowed a 1/4 turn seperation from the block. But it usually takes a couple times to get in right. I'm about to do another quarter turn.
Maybe with this tensioner having fewer miles it will work and not develope the shaft knock.
But I see no difference between what reddog has done versus what i'm doing, and its far easier with no risk of spring breakage.
I monitor the adjustment screw previously, at no time after i allowed the tensioner to advance did it ever back off.
From everything I've seen, its the actual plunger shaft that makes all this noise
[image: View Post]spud786, on Jul 6 2008, 02:32 PM, said:
Rivcyko, follow me here Decel?
Sorry, poor choice of wordage. What I was talking about was the decel of the engine, from higher RPM.
I'm talking at idle
IMO, there 2 different noises related to the cam chain, and thats chain noise itself, or CCT shaft oscillation ( this is the Duck klack noise) . Even your friend Redog talks about the shaft play of the tentioner and noise.
The noise in the video sounds like the chain, having slack, due to the lack of tension, and the chain is slapping the chain guide. If it were the tensioner shaft, it would be more predominant, on the back side of the head bank. (+ the video sound more of BB's clanging around, as opposed to the, "shaft shimmy").
But what hes done with the spring, forces more tention, theres no difference doing my trick which also adds more tention and its far easier than removing the tensioner. I changed the intermittant duck klatter to an intermittant knock, chains dont knock, this is the shaft in the CCT knocking.
It really is the same. It's more of a factor of having to tear into, and adjust it every 10,000 miles.
I didnt try my trick until that CCT had 30,000 miles though, so it had been klacking intermittantly for well over 10,000 mile and may have created damage, But what I did notice, you talk about a vibration free VFR in Vtech, snugg that front chain makes a huge difference.
But because of the cct shaft intermittant knock. I had no other choice than to replace. The new tentioner took care of the noise, but I gained back that high rpm vtech vibration. Any way, 7,000 mile later this new tensioner is begiinng to make noise. I ve already allowed a 1/4 turn seperation from the block. But it usually takes a couple times to get in right. I'm about to do another quarter turn.
Maybe with this tensioner having fewer miles it will work and not develope the shaft knock.
But I see no difference between what reddog has done versus what i'm doing, and its far easier with no risk of spring breakage.
Even if the spring did break, the chance of, "Loose material", is slim to none.
I monitor the adjustment screw previously, at no time after i allowed the tensioner to advance did it ever back off.
From everything I've seen, its the actual plunger shaft that makes all this noise
Boils down to,... To each there own. If you want new ones, cool. If you want to adjust often, that's ones own choice. I think Red Dog's is the most permanent, inexpensive fix, on the board to date.
Okay Riv,
We'll let it ride there >G<
Where is the Reddog guy, and how many miles has he done with his fix, to show permanant success?
I just dont see the difference between the 2 procedures, both do the same thing, apply more tention
loose material on spring breakage was not the concern, the plunger backing off on tension and chain tooth jump is, it happens frequently on spring breakage with other bikes when that happens.
I think the only thing after reading RedDog's post was the uncertainty of whether or not too much spring tension was applied. Could we not take a new tensioner and measure it's spring rate to an old one. Then use RedDog's method to adjust to the rate of the new. I haven't had a tensioner in my hand yet but sure would be cool to know a nominal (new) spring rate. I imagine that the new springs are just working in, once worked in and adjusted my guess is that they would last for quite a while afterwords.
Here is a link to RedDog's post (hope this is it)...
http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.p...st&p=454430
[image: View Post]jasonsmith, on Jul 6 2008, 03:08 PM, said:
I think the only thing after reading RedDog's post was the uncertainty of whether or not too much spring tension was applied. Could we not take a new tensioner and measure it's spring rate to an old one. Then use RedDog's method to adjust to the rate of the new. I haven't had a tensioner in my hand yet but sure would be cool to know a nominal (new) spring rate. I imagine that the new springs are just working in, once worked in and adjusted my guess is that they would last for quite a while afterwords.
Here is a link to RedDog's post (hope this is it)...
http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.p...st&p=454430
well, replacing to a new tentioner from a modded pressure one, I was alittle dissapointed, as I regained High rpm vtech vibration although there was no CCT chatter. 7,000 miles later the new one is beginning to make noise . That was the bonus of modded pressure, increased smooth high rpm >G<
I will not by another CCT, I now have 2 , 1 to play with, Worse comes to worse I get a Manual.
But , while this new one is not bad on the noise yet, I'm going to retry my block speration trick and see if it does the trick on a permanent basis.
I do it in stages to avoid to tight(takes just a few minutes), it shouldnt be a repetitive thing once set, unless the chain is stretching alot
[image: View Post]spud786, on Jul 6 2008, 03:42 PM, said:
Okay Riv,
We'll let it ride there >G<
Where is the Reddog guy, and how many miles has he done with his fix, to show permanant success?
I wonder the same. That is why I would like to see more folks, do the mod, so that we can gauge some controls.
I just dont see the difference between the 2 procedures, both do the same thing, apply more tention
Granted. It's just funny to me that Honda would require an owner to change the thing every so often, when the bikes a supposed to be set-up, for indefinite care free use.
loose material on spring breakage was not the concern, the plunger backing off on tension and chain tooth jump is, it happens frequently on spring breakage with other bikes when that happens.
I have the old tensioner sitting out which I could try the Reddog, but the thought of removing and replacing another tensioner is not high in delight.
LOL
I think if I were to remove another a manual would go back in
I took the circlip off my old tensioner and the spring went weeeeeeeeee as it unwound, so now I have no idea where it originally was>G<
So I read through this thread and the links to the other.
Now I'm a bit concerned. I have an '07 VFR800. Is the weakening and/or failure of the CCT a common occurance on 6th Generation VFR's?
You know, when I had my 5th Gen, it too had a bit of valve clatter at idle after a few minutes of warm up. It was audible only without hearing protection but even with aftermarket pipes that were loud. This even after I had the valves inspected, synthetic oil, tune up, etc. It didn't clatter when revved though. Either that or I just couldn't hear it due to the exhaust. I bought the bike used with 7k miles on it so I'm not sure if it was like that when new. However, the bike always ran like a top and never had any type of failure. It didn't even burn any oil.
[image: View Post]Rogue_Biker, on Jul 6 2008, 04:53 PM, said:
So I read through this thread and the links to the other.
Now I'm a bit concerned. I have an '07 VFR800. Is the weakening and/or failure of the CCT a common occurance on 6th Generation VFR's?
You know, when I had my 5th Gen, it too had a bit of valve clatter at idle after a few minutes of warm up. It was audible only without hearing protection but even with aftermarket pipes that were loud. This even after I had the valves inspected, synthetic oil, tune up, etc. It didn't clatter when revved though. Either that or I just couldn't hear it due to the exhaust. I bought the bike used with 7k miles on it so I'm not sure if it was like that when new. However, the bike always ran like a top and never had any type of failure. It didn't even burn any oil.
The front tensioner is a frequented issue, dont worry your bike wont blow up or anything, it will begin to sound like a duck quacking, even louder than in the above audio.
New tentioner seems to be hit or miss , I've had 2 tentioners both fronts have developed noise , this newest one is only about 7,000 miles old
I ran the first one to around 33,000 mile before I replaced it after trying to increas pressure, it was close to a success, Ill let ya know if what I just did lasts longterm on this new one.
BTW this isnt valve clatter at all
Is it possible that they are destined to make noise and that we may be a little to aware of it?
[image: View Post]Rogue_Biker, on Jul 7 2008, 07:53 AM, said:
Now I'm a bit concerned. I have an '07 VFR800. Is the weakening and/or failure of the CCT a common occurance on 6th Generation VFR's?
Don't stress too much. Mine first started rattling at 16,000KM and were replaced under warranty. They did it again at 50,000KM, and now just recently at 100,000KM.
In each case, only the tensioners needed replacing which is a 60-90 minute job for anyone with basic tools. The tensioner design is flawed; most likely the tensioner rather than the chain is rattling. Either way, all of my replaced tensioners were still applying tension to the chain. Ergo there is no risk of catastrophic engine failure, just an annoying rattle.
I started wearing earplugs about a year ago, so mine was probably rattling for a good few thousand kays before I replaced the tensioners. And I only did that because the noise had become so loud I could hear it through my earplugs!
P.S. I have written to APE racing to see if they are interested in developing a cam chain tensioner for the VFR.
[image: View Post]kaldek, on Jul 6 2008, 04:38 PM, said:
P.S. I have written to APE racing to see if they are interested in developing a cam chain tensioner for the VFR.
Now that would be sweet!
[image: View Post]jasonsmith, on Jul 7 2008, 09:54 AM, said:
[image: View Post]kaldek, on Jul 6 2008, 04:38 PM, said:
P.S. I have written to APE racing to see if they are interested in developing a cam chain tensioner for the VFR.
Now that would be sweet!
Yeah, I even offered to mail them my stack of used CCTs as templates!
[image: View Post]spud786, on Jul 6 2008, 08:42 PM, said:
Okay Riv,
We'll let it ride there >G<
Where is the Reddog guy, and how many miles has he done with his fix, to show permanant success?
I just dont see the difference between the 2 procedures, both do the same thing, apply more tention
loose material on spring breakage was not the concern, the plunger backing off on tension and chain tooth jump is, it happens frequently on spring breakage with other bikes when that happens.
LOL..the "RedDog fix"...glad I came across this thread.
Slammer said to check the oil for any "particles" in the pan after I changed the oil a few Kmiles later. There was nothing unusual.
I have put on around 8K-10K miles since the mod, no more noise and no other issues.
This mod is very difficult to describe though (did it over a year ago and did not take good notes!). I did manage to maintain the current tension and then added five turns to increase the tension. My spring did not unwind during the process, or there would have been no reference to increase the tension.
So Honda fixed the electrical issues, the VTEC, and updated the bike in 2006. But they didn't bother with the deteriorating tension of the CCT?
Not exactly what I was expecting from Honda. :dry:
I did manage to maintain the current tension and then added five turns to increase the tension. My spring did not unwind during the process, or there would have been no reference to increase the tension.
________
yep I removed that circlip and pop, there she goes >G< but alteast so far so good with your trick for you, I'm giving my trick another shot on a different tenstioner. That trick is in loosening the mounting screws and let the tensioner seperate from the block and take up the slack, then retighten.
I do it in 1/4 increments and then ride . First tentioner I tried aleady had over 30,000 miles on it , almost worked , but maybe if it doesnt I give a shot with your trick .
I have high hopes though>G< Right now im at a 3/4 turn from where it wanted to be on plunger length orginally, thats 2 adjustments
i spent some time just seeing if i could get the old one to rewind and atleast function, I dont think this will work for the masses, too technique sensitive. My old tensioner is defitiely trash after damaging the spring. >G<
Hey folks,
A.P.E Racing responded to me and said they'd be happy to take a look at my used CCTs to see if they have an item in their catalogue that would work, or to consider development of a part to suit our bikes.
I'll keep you in the loop; we're talking a fair amount of time needing to pass here (mailing units to the USA, waiting for them to look at them, etc).
These guys are located in Rosamond, CA; is there any members of this board who may be able to assist the process by volunteering to be a test case if they find a part that fits? Preferably someone who is a dab hand with a spanner!
CTT !
I replaced mine at 32k and I'm at 61k now. No big deal. Cost $140 in maintenance outside normal wear & tear items over 60,000 miles of kicking it's butt, I wish every vehicle I owned was so cheap to operate! :fing02:
Righto, Dennis from A.P.E. said it would be "awesome" to get my old CCT units as templates.
I'll be sending those off this week, so at some point in the future we may have the option of fitting manual tensioners! Rattle be-gone!
[image: View Post]kaldek, on 08 July 2008 - 09:43 PM, said:
I'll be sending those off this week, so at some point in the future we may have the option of fitting manual tensioners! Rattle be-gone!
Does anyone know if A.P.E. ended up making manual tensioners for a sixth gen VFR? I tore up their web site looking and couldn't find anything.
Does anyone know if another model's manual tensioner will fit the VFR? I plan on giving A.P.E. a call to find out an answer to this question.
[image: View Post]Lee 2002, on 01 April 2010 - 07:18 PM, said:
[image: View Post]kaldek, on 08 July 2008 - 09:43 PM, said:
I'll be sending those off this week, so at some point in the future we may have the option of fitting manual tensioners! Rattle be-gone!
Does anyone know if A.P.E. ended up making manual tensioners for a sixth gen VFR? I tore up their web site looking and couldn't find anything.
Does anyone know if another model's manual tensioner will fit the VFR? I plan on giving A.P.E. a call to find out an answer to this question.
Yeah sorry mate, the tensioners got lost in the post somewhere so they never arrived at A.P.E.
I'd like to hear from Spud & RedDog again on long term results.
Last fall just before hibernation, I arose from such a clatter but was assured of no mechanical damage.
Don't really care for unwanted noises and if / when it returns would like to do the best thing for it,
should that mean replacing a front CCT or doing the hoky poky with the left foot in? 2 more weeks until
back on the road full time so I'll be watching this closely.
[image: View Post]spud786, on 06 July 2008 - 03:33 PM, said:
Worse comes to worse I get a Manual.
[image: View Post]spud786, on 06 July 2008 - 04:10 PM, said:
I think if I were to remove another a manual would go back in
[image: View Post]didit, on 01 April 2010 - 09:05 AM, said:
I'd like to hear from Spud & RedDog again on long term results.
I'd be more interested in having Spud post a link to where I can buy the manual tensioner he keeps mentioning using on his 2006 VFR 800.
I don't recall Spud going to a manual CCT. I am still having noise from mine, and given what happened last time I ignored it (the noise wasn't the CCT, but the cam sprocket coming off), I still plan to replace it to see if the noise goes away before I put everything back together. They are not terribly expensive, but I haven't seen one fail either. You can easily tighten the spring if you want to try that.
[image: View Post]Tightwad, on 01 April 2010 - 10:11 AM, said:
You can easily tighten the spring if you want to try that.
Please, do tell?
I found this to be very interesting. This guy used a longer bolt in place of the current one to add constant tension. Now I'm wishing I hadn't tossed my old one.
CLICK HERE
Any thoughts??
I will have to look at a CCT I have and see if this mod would work�it makes sense to me as he explains it, but I don�t recall that the end of the shaft would be lockable in this method. Of course don�t forget to put your washer under the nut to seal it, and some Teflon might not be bad on the threads (VERY LIGHT) to keep oil from seeping up the shaft.
[image: View Post]Tightwad, on 01 April 2010 - 12:11 PM, said:
I don't recall Spud going to a manual CCT.
[image: View Post]spud786, on 06 July 2008 - 04:10 PM, said:
I think if I were to remove another a manual would go back in
Sure sounds like he had one installed. I would prefer just to go to a manual CCT, but can't find one. If he knows where to source one, he needs to share. I still haven't received a reply from A.P.E., but it appears they don't make one for the VFR.
[image: View Post]dutchinterceptor, on 01 April 2010 - 04:12 PM, said:
I found this to be very interesting. This guy used a longer bolt in place of the current one to add constant tension. Now I'm wishing I hadn't tossed my old one.
CLICK HERE
Any thoughts??
If he was able to get the treaded rod to advance and allow the spring to lengthen then I don't really see the need for the longer bolt to lock it forward. I guess his opinion is that the spring isn't strong enough to maintain adequate pressure. By adding the longer bolt he is basically turning the CCT into a solid (manual) tensioner.
I haven't had one apart.... yet. But I think this would only be beneficial if the threaded rod is able to be advanced, and if that is the case, I'm not sure that the longer bolt would be needed at that point. But, believe me, this is another option that I'm going to explore.
All I know is that something is going to get done. If I wanted a rattling old hardly, that is what I would have bought.
EDIT: This does give me an idea though..... What if a guy was to remove the treads from the threaded rod... then tap the end of it so that it could be installed with a bolt in the end to retain it.... then once it is installed the retaining bolt were removed to release the spring. Without threads on the rod to keep it from advancing the spring would be able to provide constant presssure for the life of the CCT without the threaded rod getting bound up. Another option to explore. Only downside I can imagine at this point is that if the chain breaks the whole innards of the CCT would launch themselves into the motor without the rod being threaded to retain them. But by that point you already have larger problems.
I tried alot of stuff when my front cct began to make noise around 20,000 mile , after messing with various procedures such as increasing tension(it didnt work) over the following 13,000 mile). I bought a new tentioner , within 3000 mile later, it was klacking as bad or worse than the orginal.
Complete waste of $100 and my time
I highly recommend before engaging in a cct, buy a good 10w40 MB rated fluid , and see if your KLACKing CCT issue isnt totally gone within 50 mile.
I've been klack free for more than 40,000 mile since, utilizing these oils. It was instantaneous, and I had kronic cct klack at idle.
The issue is the cct sits vertical on top of the motor, a very tiny oil port oil to lubricate the body and plunger a more sling effect.
The audio clip is defintely front cct klack , BTW the klack is not from a loose chain but the plunger ocsillation in the cct body, lack of lube.
Dutch, nice addition and link. This sounds interesting to me but . . . . .
I am at one major disadvantage. I'm going to admit it here in semi-public so be gentle with me. :blush:
I've read abundantly regarding this whole CCT thing, but for the life of me I cannot put a visualization in my head to understand it.
Mechanically, my mind don't just go that there to well good. :blink: All's I know, it makes the noise, without rubbing the lotion on it's skin.
If anyone has a mechanical style diagram or short animation that would show the operation of this CCT thing, my brain pressure could release,
the lights would come on, the smoke would clear and I could get back to solving world peace and finish my time machine / transporter pods (sans fly).
[image: View Post]spud786, on 01 April 2010 - 07:28 PM, said:
I tried alot of stuff when my front cct began to make noise around 20,000 mile , after messing with various procedures such as increasing tension(it didnt work) over the following 13,000 mile). I bought a new tentioner , within 3000 mile later, it was klacking as bad or worse than the orginal.
Complete waste of $100 and my time
I highly recommend before engaging in a cct, buy a good 10w40 MB rated fluid , and see if your KLACKing CCT issue isnt totally gone within 50 mile.
I've been klack free for more than 40,000 mile since, utilizing these oils. It was instantaneous, and I had kronic cct klack at idle.
The issue is the cct sits vertical on top of the motor, a very tiny oil port oil to lubricate the body and plunger a more sling effect.
The audio clip is defintely front cct klack , BTW the klack is not from a loose chain but the plunger ocsillation in the cct body, lack of lube.
Okay, everyone should be cct noise free NOW , the cost is $10 and 15 minute labor
[image: View Post]didit, on 01 April 2010 - 08:40 PM, said:
Dutch, nice addition and link. This sounds interesting to me but . . . . .
I am at one major disadvantage. I'm going to admit it here in semi-public so be gentle with me. :blush:
I've read abundantly regarding this whole CCT thing, but for the life of me I cannot put a visualization in my head to understand it.
Mechanically, my mind don't just go that there to well good. :blink: All's I know, it makes the noise, without rubbing the lotion on it's skin.
If anyone has a mechanical style diagram or short animation that would show the operation of this CCT thing, my brain pressure could release,
the lights would come on, the smoke would clear and I could get back to solving world peace and finish my time machine / transporter pods (sans fly).
This shot is missing the front tensioner due to the cut-away but I added an arrow where it should be. The tensioner is basically an aluminum blob with a spring loaded plunger inside it. When working properly it pushes against the chain guide/cam chain thus keeping the chain taught. Kind of like eating fava beans and a nice chianti. :biggrin:
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e81/Dutch9090/VFR%20VTEC/VTEC.jpg
Well with that mechanical style diagram, it shows me why the front has a harder time getting the oil to the front cct , it would put the front one in a ceiling position more so than a slanted wall like the rear one. Just a lay-man's opinion.......
[image: View Post]Monk, on 04 April 2010 - 12:43 AM, said:
Well with that mechanical style diagram, it shows me why the front has a harder time getting the oil to the front cct , it would put the front one in a ceiling position more so than a slanted wall like the rear one. Just a lay-man's opinion.......
That's what Spud's been saying for a while. Not getting enough oil or sumsuch.
[image: View Post]Monk, on 03 April 2010 - 11:43 PM, said:
Well with that mechanical style diagram, it shows me why the front has a harder time getting the oil to the front cct , it would put the front one in a ceiling position more so than a slanted wall like the rear one. Just a lay-man's opinion.......
Yeh the rear one is bathed pretty well .
10w40 car oils, like motorcraft or Exxon superflow works well. I've heard castrol does too by another . The 20w50's avoid on cct noise issue. Pepboys is a good source
For those who need to have mc oil, try the Redline MC specific oil, it is mb rated and has properties of Moly that should do wonders in that area.
I'm about to run a test of redlines Motorcycle10w40 cooling properties later this year when it gets hot. Unrelated.
Check for loose or leaky exhuast...
Next time you make a recording of your engine running place a rag in the exhaust so we can hear the culprit better...
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 04 April 2010 - 01:38 AM, said:
Check for loose or leaky exhuast...
Next time you make a recording of your engine running place a rag in the exhaust so we can hear the culprit better...
I listened to that Exact noise for 13,000 mile, and it gets louder than that. If you ask him , I bet he'll tell you it starts up with no noise , by the time he gets down the street a little ways it starts the Duck Klack (quacking).
I wonder if this also has something to do with Honda recomending 10w30 on 07 plus models, thinner oil reaches those places easier.
He's not the first to post the same noise, RYVCYKO also present the same noise in a clip too a few years back.
Anyone who's ever had front cct Klack , knows this noise well.
Yeh the rear one is bathed pretty well .
10w40 car oils, like motorcraft or Exxon superflow works well. I've heard castrol does too by another . The 20w50's avoid on cct noise issue. Pepboys is a good source
For those who need to have mc oil, try the Redline MC specific oil, it is mb rated and has properties of Moly that should do wonders in that area.
I'm about to run a test of redlines Motorcycle10w40 cooling properties later this year when it gets hot. Unrelated.
[/quote]
mb rated oils are for dry clutches you want a ma rated oil
Got this e-mail today.
Quote
Hello Lee,
Unfortunately it doesn't look like we have a tensioner that will work in your bike. If you want you could send us one of your stock tensioners and we could take a look and see if we have a tensioner that will work in your application. Let me know if you would be interested in doing this or if you have any other questions.
Thanks,DustinA.P.E.661-256-7309
http://www.aperaceparts.com
I would rather have to "pop the hood" every couple of months to make a minor adjustment than have to replace a tensioner every 15,000 miles. With the manual tensioner lubrication or type of oil would never be an issue. A "bouncing" plunger couldn't happen. It just seems like it would be a better way to go.
So again, I wonder if anyone is aware of a manual adjuster made for the VFR?
For the time being, I'm going to order a new OEM tensioner. Swap it out and then tear apart the old one to really give it a good "once over". And see what I can come up with before shipping it off to A.P.E.
[image: View Post]Lee 2002, on 01 April 2010 - 06:05 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Tightwad, on 01 April 2010 - 12:11 PM, said:
I don't recall Spud going to a manual CCT.
[image: View Post]spud786, on 06 July 2008 - 04:10 PM, said:
I think if I were to remove another a manual would go back in
Sure sounds like he had one installed. I would prefer just to go to a manual CCT, but can't find one. If he knows where to source one, he needs to share. I still haven't received a reply from A.P.E., but it appears they don't make one for the VFR.
[image: View Post]dutchinterceptor, on 01 April 2010 - 04:12 PM, said:
I found this to be very interesting. This guy used a longer bolt in place of the current one to add constant tension. Now I'm wishing I hadn't tossed my old one.
CLICK HERE
Any thoughts??
If he was able to get the treaded rod to advance and allow the spring to lengthen then I don't really see the need for the longer bolt to lock it forward. I guess his opinion is that the spring isn't strong enough to maintain adequate pressure. By adding the longer bolt he is basically turning the CCT into a solid (manual) tensioner.
I haven't had one apart.... yet. But I think this would only be beneficial if the threaded rod is able to be advanced, and if that is the case, I'm not sure that the longer bolt would be needed at that point. But, believe me, this is another option that I'm going to explore.
All I know is that something is going to get done. If I wanted a rattling old hardly, that is what I would have bought.
EDIT: This does give me an idea though..... What if a guy was to remove the treads from the threaded rod... then tap the end of it so that it could be installed with a bolt in the end to retain it.... then once it is installed the retaining bolt were removed to release the spring. Without threads on the rod to keep it from advancing the spring would be able to provide constant presssure for the life of the CCT without the threaded rod getting bound up. Another option to explore. Only downside I can imagine at this point is that if the chain breaks the whole innards of the CCT would launch themselves into the motor without the rod being threaded to retain them. But by that point you already have larger problems.
I don't believe he used the bolt to push the tensioner out, but rather to hold it out where it was so it couldn't rattle at all. I don't think the tensioner really needs lubrication, as it doesn't move back in once extended...the lubrication is too keep it's ability to move out further. The bolt in the end would push against the part you put the key in, thus stopping it from vibrating.
Thank you so much for the clarification - it all makes sense now. :idea3: Upon further reading and realizing, I had done a full oil change at season start
in 2009 (April) using a proper, MC class, different weight oil. It was on the trip to Colorado where Choco first noticed the sound on my bike, as I
had either my plugs or head phones in and never did notice. Then did a synthetic change at Cassandtim's noticing the sound even more so upon returning home.
With this, I am tempted to do another oil change going back to the original weigh, MA classed oil and seing what come of it. As I don't race and do regular
interval changes (4-5k) I'm inclinded to think, if this works for me, then let it work for me.
The knowledge and reading is (as always here) much appreicated. Bike goes in Wed. and I'll know more after some test riding next week. I'll keep an eye here.
MOD - I need a little smily face, bowing down to greater powers so I can post that up for Dutchinterceptor.
[image: View Post]jasonsmith, on 06 July 2008 - 02:08 PM, said:
I think the only thing after reading RedDog's post was the uncertainty of whether or not too much spring tension was applied. Could we not take a new tensioner and measure it's spring rate to an old one. Then use RedDog's method to adjust to the rate of the new. I haven't had a tensioner in my hand yet but sure would be cool to know a nominal (new) spring rate. I imagine that the new springs are just working in, once worked in and adjusted my guess is that they would last for quite a while afterwords.
Here is a link to RedDog's post (hope this is it)...
http://www.vfrdiscus...p...st&p=454430
Its very technique sensitive with that spring, a simple slip and the whole thing will uncoil and you'll never know exactly where it was. Its not something for everyone
I played with my old one(slip) but have it working, I wouldnt trust using it cause it unwound , for those thinking of this, make sure you have a new one on standy ready to go.
mb rated oils are for dry clutches you want a ma rated oil
[/quote]
You'd be hard pressed to find an MA rated car oil, But I agree if you get too deep into MB side of things slippage is a potential.
[image: View Post]spud786, on 05 April 2010 - 07:50 PM, said:
Its very technique sensitive with that spring, a simple slip and the whole thing will uncoil and you'll never know exactly where it was. Its not something for everyone
I'll try to count the number of revolutions of factory pre-load when I swap mine out. Hopefully I suceed, that way if someone wants to try RedDog's fix and it gets away from them they'll have a starting point to recover from.
As a co-worker of mine says, I'm really going to "study it's habits."
I've been noise free since running the car oils like Exxon superflow and Motorcraft 10w40, But I'm sure there are many mc oils that will work too. If you like heavy weight oils, maybe a motul high in moly will be a non issue, but oils like mobil 1 mc oil are substible in allowing cct noise.
Even if they had a manual tensioner I wouldnt spend the money on it, cause I dont have a cct noise issue anymore and fiqured out what was actually making the rattle.
Be assured, I put enough tension on that chain during testing to understand the chain was not rattling, you could hear the guide binding down on th chain. Yet the Cct still rattled ,it did change the sound alittle though.
That was way back in the early 30,000 mile range. I'm up at 70,000 now
Thats the only too issues I've had on the bike, the cct noise way back then, and failed stator at 56,000 mile. I'm heading to 100k next stop.
[quote name='spud786' date='05 April 2010 - 08:15 PM' timestamp='1270516505' post='696409']
mb rated oils are for dry clutches you want a ma rated oil
[/quote]
You'd be hard pressed to find an MA rated car oil, But I agree if you get too deep into MB side of things slippage is a potential.
[/quote]
not really both the rotella t oils are MA rated
[image: View Post]Lee 2002, on 05 April 2010 - 08:20 PM, said:
[image: View Post]spud786, on 05 April 2010 - 07:50 PM, said:
Its very technique sensitive with that spring, a simple slip and the whole thing will uncoil and you'll never know exactly where it was. Its not something for everyone
I'll try to count the number of revolutions of factory pre-load when I swap mine out. Hopefully I suceed, that way if someone wants to try RedDog's fix and it gets away from them they'll have a starting point to recover from.
As a co-worker of mine says, I'm really going to "study it's habits."
I found one additional winding took a used CCT back to new strength, as measured by it's force 1/2 way depressed against a postal scale (not too scientific I know, but you do what you can with what you have).
Apparently the tech at the shop I went to has made manual CCT units for a few other Honda models.
Spoke with him today regarding making one for the 6th Gen. LSS/ the bike goes in Tuesday for a few hours, so he can spec together a prototype.
If / when it proves successful, he said to be worth while in booking the CNC time at least 10 or more, to get a number of them made.
Once I know the sound is gone I'll post a thread on the results. I told him I'm not looking for any $$ but am willing to provide linkage to/through the site
to help anyone else rid themselves of the annoying clackety clackety sound. He's familiar with APE - that was his first suggestion.
[quote name='snake' date='05 April 2010 - 11:37 PM' timestamp='1270532229' post='696481']
[quote name='spud786' date='05 April 2010 - 08:15 PM' timestamp='1270516505' post='696409']
mb rated oils are for dry clutches you want a ma rated oil
[/quote]
You'd be hard pressed to find an MA rated car oil, But I agree if you get too deep into MB side of things slippage is a potential.
[/quote]
not really both the rotella t oils are MA rated
[/quote]
yeh but those are diesils, neither of which I like. I'm actually running Delo 15w40 right now, but it still has car oil residual no noise. I bet I do 2 changes of Delo and cct noise comes back.
But most straight car oils are MB Jaso, what I've been on for the last 40,000 mile
Delo was on sale, I'm wanting to run Redline MC oil this summer , and see what my average water temps run, unrelated to cct.
I replaced my CCT with a new one. Seems to have taken care of the problem (only one ride so far, but it did it every ride for the last month and didn't tonight). I also drilled out the oil hole in the gasket to #58 (.042") and replaced my crank case oil (with what I tend to use in the summer). So who is really to say what solved the problem at this point. Too many variables changed all at the same time.
I could find nothing wrong with the old tensioner. There was the tiniest bit of "sludge" in the oil pathway... but nothing burned or hardened. The pathway was not completely blocked.
I was able to change the tensioner without removing the injector rails. It was a snug fit but easily doable with some patience. There is one coolant line that you have to get a little forceful with.
Left to right: (in my own description)
Key, locking wire
Body, threaded rod, spring, sleeve, (locking washer on plunger), plunger
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2793/4533467357_c9011d6449_o.jpg
I was unable to count the number of turns of pre-load (it got away from me too). But I can tell you that the spring starts to become coil bound on the sleeve at 10-11 revolutions. It takes 4.375 revolutions for the plunger to travel to it's full extension.
Here is how to pre-load the spring:
Assemble the unit with the threaded rod fully engaged into the plunger. Engage the spring on the back of the threaded rod. Insert this assembly into the body, being sure to locate the plunger side of the spring into it's recessed location. Do not engage the locking washer in it's recesses.
Use a thin screwdriver to hold the treaded rod. Use your hand to hold the plunger. While holding the threaded rod and plunger as a unit with the screwdriver and your hand, rotate the body about the threaded rod and plunger. Rotate the body so that the spring is compressed, not unwound. When you reach your desired preload, continue to hold the body and slide the locking washer into it's recesses. While holding all this in place, install the locking wire into it's grooves.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4034/4534102426_da00de386a_o.jpg
Hope I have helped... at least you can now see what's going on inside the damned thing.
End of thread · 62 posts recovered Wayback Machine snapshot 1 Jul 2010